Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

[ramana]

Arre baba why do people go off tangent for every accident?

Root cause is rail fracture at welds.
The coaches being screw coupler contributed to the casualties.

Newer LHB coaches need to be brought in.

BTW passengers are insured for each rail ticket that is bought.

[Karthik S]

BTW passengers are insured for each rail ticket that is bought.

I think we have to opt for insurance for very nominal price (< 1 Re). Not sure if you are insured by default.

[Karan M]

what insurance? 1 lakh? wont let a man survive lifelong `in india in anyhalf decent city

[manjgu]

they still use the manually pushed trolley to check track condition... heavy investments need to be made into improving rail infra. tracks, signalling, stations etc. with limited resources have to prioritise.

[Sicanta]

what insurance? 1 lakh? wont let a man survive lifelong `in india in anyhalf decent city

It is an insurance worth Rs 10 lakh only for those who bought e ticket, for now. Insurance prmium is worth 92 paise.

[Sicanta]

Of the 695 passengers on board the ill-fated Indore-Patna Express who booked online tickets, only 128 had opted for the insurance, which costs only 92 paise.

[Philip]

Safe reliable travel far better than bullet trains and fancy trains costing billions ,which will be enjoyed by a few thousand people only,instead oi millions. Modernisation of rolling stock,new carriages,repairing old bridges,checking old tracks,installing more safety features and better facilities both on trains and at stations is the answer.The railways have such a huge amt. of land that they could easily build integrated shopping centres,janata hotels,etc. above the stations and on their land innovatively,as is being done in developed countries.Similarly new light-weight wagons for transporting a specified range of goods will bring down fuel costs.

How will a billion $+ "bullet train" between Bombay and A'bad help Biharis,Tamilians and Assamese who've been given "hand-me-down" ancient rakes ,infested with vermin ? Delhi ,Gujarat and UP,isn't India.

[Prasad]

Man come on. Read up on the bullet train funding and what it brings to the table instead of spouting Mayawati level blabber.

[manjgu]

Prasad ..why cant funding from the Japanese be used for modernising the rail infra? isnt IR short of funds for modernisation work on train infra?

[Karthik S]

Manjgu, sure we can seek funding, technology from the Japanese for modernizing. But that will be different from any other Indo Japani project.

[manjgu]

Kartik S ... if we agree on the fact that IR needs funding for infra and we dont have the funds..why dont we ask Japan for funding with similar terms as the one for bullet trains? lets focus first on this aspect and ask Japan for funding for bullet train as well?

[A Deshmukh]

Of the 695 passengers on board the ill-fated Indore-Patna Express who booked online tickets, only 128 had opted for the insurance, which costs only 92 paise.

can insurance purchase be made mandatory?

[yensoy]

Prasad ..why cant funding from the Japanese be used for modernising the rail infra? isnt IR short of funds for modernisation work on train infra?

Japan isn't fronting us money for us to do what we want with it. The key to their near-zero interest rates is that we purchase the technology components from them over a 20+ year relationship. It is a fair deal where they park their surplus funds with us in exchange for an yearly dividend over the long term. This suits them as a tech leader in a demographic decline. Except it doesn't help us to modernize our existing infrastructure for which we need neither Japanese nor German nor Chinese technology, we just need good application of our existing technology. There is little magic in rail manufacturing, or inspection, or signalling improvements for non-high-speed railways. We need money, more than we need technology (some best practices sharing, improving of inspection equipment etc is good but marginal in terms of costs).

[Karthik S]

I meant if we need funding, not that we actually have funds. What makes you think IR doesn't have projects on improving safety? In this year IIRC, IR contracted with Thales and is working with one of the IITs to improve safety, shifting to LHB from ICF. Bullet train project is independent of any other projects.

[arshyam]

LIC is lending some money to IR for modernization. Suresh Prabhu has mentioned this many times.

[nandakumar]

Of the 695 passengers on board the ill-fated Indore-Patna Express who booked online tickets, only 128 had opted for the insurance, which costs only 92 paise.

can insurance purchase be made mandatory?

Obamacare in the US pretty much did that for healthcare in the US. The basic principle in group insurance is that if the entire universe can be covered then insurance cost per person becomes negligible. If a rupee cost can be added to the fare it is possible to provide claim payment that is much higher than what is paid out currently as death benefit in accidents. The irony it would not be seen as a hike in passenger fare.

[Karthik S]

One more NFS project.

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/esij3z ... oject.html

New Delhi: Moving ahead with the introduction of the high-speed Maglev (magnetic levitation) trains in the country, the Indian Railways has asked Rail India Technical and Economic Service (RITES) to prepare a detailed project report within the next six months. The railways aims to implement the first stretch of the project in less than three years’ time.

“We would be very closely associated with RITES as they would collect all the required data after which we would together do the analysis of the sufficiently high clientele sectors where Maglev can be implemented,” said Nitin Chowdhary, executive director, mechanical engineering (development), ministry of railways.

Maglev trains which run at a minimum speed of 350 km per hour (kmph) and maximum 500kmph without touching the ground are based on the magnetic levitation technology wherein the train is elevated 1 to 6 inches above the ground through a system of magnets thereby making the train move frictionless at high speeds.

The project would be implemented on a PPP (public-private partnership) basis as a joint venture between the railways and a private company wherein the railways would contribute 26% of the equity.

“Two private companies can also form a JV within themselves but the resultant JV would have to in turn work with us in a joint venture by sharing the technology for the project and not be our competition instead,” explained Chowdhary.

According to Chowdhary, the objective is to have a core incubator group with a mandate to develop Maglevs in India. The group will brainstorm with the industry as well as the railways. The close knit group will also oversee the development of the Evacuated Tube Transport (ETT) for freight which would run along the Maglev trains.

Refuting the notion that Maglev would be too expensive a project to generate positive returns, Chowdhary said, “Developing Maglevs won’t be as expensive as people are thinking it to be since we have spoken to a lot of vendors about it and it seems doable.”

He added that for people the priority has shifted towards saving time and if Maglev can provide that with high-end quality service, then passengers will be willing to spend a higher fare amount.

In September this year, six companies, including Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd and Switzerland-based SwissRapide AG, had evinced interest in developing Maglevs in India. The railways had invited expressions of interest for Maglev trains in July this year.

[yensoy]

One more NFS project.
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/esij3z ... oject.html

A complete waste of money. Maglev concept has been around since the 1930s and it's not going anywhere. Let's please get our wheeled rail system in order.

[Rishirishi]

One more NFS project.

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/esij3z ... oject.html

New Delhi: Moving ahead with the introduction of the high-speed Maglev (magnetic levitation) trains in the country, the Indian Railways has asked Rail India Technical and Economic Service (RITES) to prepare a detailed project report within the next six months. The railways aims to implement the first stretch of the project in less than three years’ time.

“We would be very closely associated with RITES as they would collect all the required data after which we would together do the analysis of the sufficiently high clientele sectors where Maglev can be implemented,” said Nitin Chowdhary, executive director, mechanical engineering (development), ministry of railways.

Maglev trains which run at a minimum speed of 350 km per hour (kmph) and maximum 500kmph without touching the ground are based on the magnetic levitation technology wherein the train is elevated 1 to 6 inches above the ground through a system of magnets thereby making the train move frictionless at high speeds.

The project would be implemented on a PPP (public-private partnership) basis as a joint venture between the railways and a private company wherein the railways would contribute 26% of the equity.

“Two private companies can also form a JV within themselves but the resultant JV would have to in turn work with us in a joint venture by sharing the technology for the project and not be our competition instead,” explained Chowdhary.

According to Chowdhary, the objective is to have a core incubator group with a mandate to develop Maglevs in India. The group will brainstorm with the industry as well as the railways. The close knit group will also oversee the development of the Evacuated Tube Transport (ETT) for freight which would run along the Maglev trains.

Refuting the notion that Maglev would be too expensive a project to generate positive returns, Chowdhary said, “Developing Maglevs won’t be as expensive as people are thinking it to be since we have spoken to a lot of vendors about it and it seems doable.”

He added that for people the priority has shifted towards saving time and if Maglev can provide that with high-end quality service, then passengers will be willing to spend a higher fare amount.

In September this year, six companies, including Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd and Switzerland-based SwissRapide AG, had evinced interest in developing Maglevs in India. The railways had invited expressions of interest for Maglev trains in July this year.

This is a complete waste.
I have experianced the maglev in Shanghai. It costed some 2.5 billion dollars and is too fast to make stops. Even worse, it has to stop outside the city and you end up getting of the maglev and catching a taxi or the metro. Taxi or metro are much better options, and i take that. maglev is simply too expensive for longrun route. The Chinease payed 2,5 billion dollars for 15KM. they could have got 300 km of Highspeed rail or even 200 KM of extra metro.

[saip]

In Shangai it is 30 km. When I traveled it only reached 305 km a tad slower than their HSR to Beijing which reached 310km. In any case it is way more expensive than wheeled HSR.

[SSharma]

I agree, the 300 km I got on in China is a much better option, plus those seats, leg room, charging options, clean and relatively large washrooms etc just make it all the more better, even better than the over priced domestic airlines if I may say so.

Total time I expected with train and air were same after including 2 hour boarding time for air

[Rishirishi]

I took the Maglev back in 2006ish. It reached 450 kmh. You know what the best part was.
Back then China was just begining to make news. I remember the faces of some sweeds who had a rather condesending attitude towards China. They had probably been to factories. Their faces were hanging and you could see how humiliated they felt in the Maglev. Here the Chinease has something that surpassed anyhting they had ever seen.

[prashanth]

One more NFS project.
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/esij3z ... oject.html

A complete waste of money. Maglev concept has been around since the 1930s and it's not going anywhere. Let's please get our wheeled rail system in order.

Agree completely. Get the basics right first.
1) Phasing out of ICF designed railway coaches and replacement with LHB types which are safer.
2) Bio-digester toilets and complete phasing out of holes that empty contents on tracks.
3) Implementation of automated signalling and telecom to the last village connected by railway line.
4) Elimination of unmanned railway crossings either through remotely controlled gates or by building ROB/RUB or IRNSS based tracking of trains.

All of these require huge capex and are first priority rather than castles in air HSR and Maglev.

[disha]

Agree completely. Get the basics right first.
1) Phasing out of ICF designed railway coaches and replacement with LHB types which are safer.
2) Bio-digester toilets and complete phasing out of holes that empty contents on tracks.
3) Implementation of automated signalling and telecom to the last village connected by railway line.
4) Elimination of unmanned railway crossings either through remotely controlled gates or by building ROB/RUB or IRNSS based tracking of trains.

All of these require huge capex and are first priority rather than castles in air HSR and Maglev.

Agree that each of the item you mentioned itself requires huge capex and should be a first priority. But can you tell us where is the money you think is coming for HSR?

[prashanth]

Agree that each of the item you mentioned itself requires huge capex and should be a first priority. But can you tell us where is the money you think is coming for HSR?

Saar, whether it comes from GOI's expenditure or through loans from foreign sources, ultimately it has to come from taxpayer's pocket.

[disha]

Saar, whether it comes from GOI's expenditure or through loans from foreign sources, ultimately it has to come from taxpayer's pocket.

So you are now shifting goal posts and bringing in Tax payer. Can you clearly state how HSR is funded and what are the terms of funding? If you do not know, you can please read it up. And to your 'ultimate assumption' - No., even if it is through loans from foreign sources - it does not come from taxpayer's pocket in this particular case.

Regarding HSR - please start from the page 1 of this thread and read each and every post related to HSR and please put it here after that what you find issues with HSR. Till then please refrain from making pie-in-the-sky statement.

[prashanth]

Saar, whether it comes from GOI's expenditure or through loans from foreign sources, ultimately it has to come from taxpayer's pocket.

So you are now shifting goal posts and bringing in Tax payer. Can you clearly state how HSR is funded and what are the terms of funding? If you do not know, you can please read it up. And to your 'ultimate assumption' - No., even if it is through loans from foreign sources - it does not come from taxpayer's pocket in this particular case.

In short, Japan will fund and build high speed railway in India on a build and transfer basis. India will have to start paying back after ten years or so, at low interest rates. Nothing new about the funding part. This model is being followed to build metro systems in Blr, Del and probably Chn and Kochi. This works perfectly well for low speed urban transport for which safety and operational aspects have been standardized, patronage is high and OpEx is low, relatively. But you have to pay back, and it is through taxpayers money. What is so difficult to understand?

And do you realistically expect that Japan will fund everything associated to bullet train including safety measures like fences, ROB/RUB etc and hand over a turnkey system on platter? Who is seeing pie-in-the-sky here?
And even if they did that, what about the operational expenditure and safety? Let us first show the same track record in our normal speed railway that Japan has demonstrated with its bullet trains. Just in the previous page we can see horrific images of mangled coaches and injured people. Imagine the situation if a rail fractured with 350 KM/H train running on it.

Regarding HSR - please start from the page 1 of this thread and read each and every post related to HSR and please put it here after that what you find issues with HSR. Till then please refrain from making pie-in-the-sky statement.

When you make an argument it is your duty to provide information or links to pages/websites to support your case. Anyway, since you asked I decided to take up that exercise from the last page backwards, but had to stop abruptly when I read this post of yours:

I think anybody who goes against the bullet train should be summarily banned for 3 days. For being economically stupid.

[OR not reading the excellent posts in previous pages]

Didn't want to proceed after that.

[disha]

Prashanth'ji., I suggested you read from page 1 of the thread and not from page 29 of the thread. Appreciate your effort., but food can only be eaten from mouth and if you start doing it backwards., why blame me when you run into a backstop!?

Second., I am not making a point. Your point is:

HSR is a tax burden on Indians

So prove it!

Coming to your other points:

In short, Japan will fund and build high speed railway in India on a build and transfer basis. India will have to start paying back after ten years or so, at low interest rates. Nothing new about the funding part.

Nothing new about the funding part., but how did you reach the conclusion that 'India' will have to start paying back after ten years? In reality it is the corporation which will be paying back after ten years and the corporation owning the HSR assets gets its revenue from HSR commuters and other business services. Yes the commuters are mostly Indians but that does not mean that 'India' (or 'India' standing as proxy for its tax payers) is paying for HSR.

This model is being followed to build metro systems in Blr, Del and probably Chn and Kochi. This works perfectly well for low speed urban transport for which safety and operational aspects have been standardized, patronage is high and OpEx is low, relatively. But you have to pay back, and it is through taxpayers money. What is so difficult to understand?

No sir I am dumb and I raise dumb questions - that is just me. But tell us., how do you know that the 'loan model' works perfectly well for 'low speed urban transport' but not at all for HSR? Just because you think the speed is different the loan model will not work? Pray tell us.

And you are saying that for metros safety & operational aspects have been standardized and OpEx is low but that is not the case for HSR! How do you know? Unless you have worked in Japan and know about Operating its HSR AND an expert in safety & operational aspects of BOTH metro and HSR., all of your above statement IMHO is pure junk. If not, please prove it.

And do you realistically expect that Japan will fund everything associated to bullet train including safety measures like fences, ROB/RUB etc and hand over a turnkey system on platter? Who is seeing pie-in-the-sky here?

Aren't you confusing between 'fund' and aspects of 'build-own-lease-transfer'?

So if you take a mortgage out of bank to buy a car., are you saying the bank will also build the car including its safety systems like airbags, brakes etc and hand over the key on the platter? First you call me dumb and now you are calling me a romantic! Yes, I am dumb romantic., but still whatever you mention does not prove any of your point that

HSR is a tax burden on Indians

And even if they did that, what about the operational expenditure and safety? Let us first show the same track record in our normal speed railway that Japan has demonstrated with its bullet trains. Just in the previous page we can see horrific images of mangled coaches and injured people. Imagine the situation if a rail fractured with 350 KM/H train running on it.

The first 10 year non-payment of loan after operations start covers for operation expenditure. If you missed that then please re-read your own post on the loan terms. Now since that is out of the way., are you saying that you will not start HSR between Mumbai-Ahmedabad or Secunderabad-Nagpur line because there is a safety issue in Bihar? By that logic., we should not even operate railways and metros because of our very bad safety record on the roads!

So you bring in OPEX and Safety to state that HSR should not be done but still not able to prove

HSR is a tax burden on Indians

It is your point and please prove it. Do not create a straw man and ask others to demolish for you when you do not have the patience to go from page 1 to page 28 [and not from page 28 to page 1!]

[Suraj]

Agree that each of the item you mentioned itself requires huge capex and should be a first priority. But can you tell us where is the money you think is coming for HSR?

Saar, whether it comes from GOI's expenditure or through loans from foreign sources, ultimately it has to come from taxpayer's pocket.

It doesn't come from either. It comes from the ticket buyers pocket when he buys tickets.

[Kashi]

In short, Japan will fund and build high speed railway in India on a build and transfer basis. India will have to start paying back after ten years or so, at low interest rates.

It's 15 years.

And do you realistically expect that Japan will fund everything associated to bullet train including safety measures like fences, ROB/RUB etc and hand over a turnkey system on platter? Who is seeing pie-in-the-sky here?

Do you think construction of HSR WILL NOT include building fences, ROB/RUBs? Where do you think the Japanese will lay down the dedicated HSR tracks?

And even if they did that, what about the operational expenditure and safety? Let us first show the same track record in our normal speed railway that Japan has demonstrated with its bullet trains. Just in the previous page we can see horrific images of mangled coaches and injured people. Imagine the situation if a rail fractured with 350 KM/H train running on it.

Isn't this the same line of argument that was rolled out when India started going for Metro systems? And where do we stand in this regard?

When you make an argument it is your duty to provide information or links to pages/websites to support your case.

Fair enough...

HSR is a tax burden on Indians

Care to elaborate on this with "links to pages/websites to support your case"?

[JayS]

I came across these two videos about IR factories from Kapurthala and Raibaraily. Has it been posted before..?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4a2YwVcCmQ&t

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxdYzFvqgWU

[prashanth]

Prashanth'ji., I suggested you read from page 1 of the thread and not from page 29 of the thread. Appreciate your effort., but food can only be eaten from mouth and if you start doing it backwards., why blame me when you run into a backstop!?

As some poster in this forum said in another thread, insult is the last refuge of the out-argued. I will maintain civility and decency in my posts no matter how bad the provocation is. For your information, I have been active in this forum for about ten years now, and usually read every important thread on a daily basis. I don't need to start from page 1, to follow discussions. Last few pages will suffice if I have missed anything.

HSR is a tax burden on Indians

This is a classical example of strawman. I never stated it like this. My point is 'Safety first, speed next'. We are simply not ready for HSR as on today because we are not spending enough money on improving safety of our existing railway infrastructure. And HSR needs much larger OpEx.
You need proof for that? Just visit the previous page.

Nothing new about the funding part., but how did you reach the conclusion that 'India' will have to start paying back after ten years? In reality it is the corporation which will be paying back after ten years and the corporation owning the HSR assets gets its revenue from HSR commuters and other business services. Yes the commuters are mostly Indians but that does not mean that 'India' (or 'India' standing as proxy for its tax payers) is paying for HSR.

HSR commuters and business pay for covering operational expenses and not to service loans. The loan itself is sovereign debt which India has to pay back over a long duration, as in the case of Del, Blr metros. Please read up.

No sir I am dumb and I raise dumb questions - that is just me. But tell us., how do you know that the 'loan model' works perfectly well for 'low speed urban transport' but not at all for HSR? Just because you think the speed is different the loan model will not work? Pray tell us.

Strawman argument again. Mass rapid transit systems are necessary to make travel within cities easier, specially those that have high population density. This is very necessary for densely populated Indian cities, even though revenues may not be enough to pay back loans. Plus the safety record of metro systems have been very good (in India) until now.

And you are saying that for metros safety & operational aspects have been standardized and OpEx is low but that is not the case for HSR! How do you know? Unless you have worked in Japan and know about Operating its HSR AND an expert in safety & operational aspects of BOTH metro and HSR., all of your above statement IMHO is pure junk. If not, please prove it.

Never said Shinkansen is unsafe. It is probably safer to travel in that than in any of IR's trains, given its record. Please don't misquote and put words into my mouth. I was making a general comment (compliment) about the cookie-cutter metro system model we are implementing in India.

Aren't you confusing between 'fund' and aspects of 'build-own-lease-transfer'?

Its a loan. Not BOT. Please read this:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 167107.cms

So if you take a mortgage out of bank to buy a car., are you saying the bank will also build the car including its safety systems like airbags, brakes etc and hand over the key on the platter? First you call me dumb and now you are calling me a romantic! Yes, I am dumb romantic.

So do I take it that you agree on additional expenditure from India's side?

The first 10 year non-payment of loan after operations start covers for operation expenditure. If you missed that then please re-read your own post on the loan terms. Now since that is out of the way., are you saying that you will not start HSR between Mumbai-Ahmedabad or Secunderabad-Nagpur line because there is a safety issue in Bihar? By that logic., we should not even operate railways and metros because of our very bad safety record on the roads!

So you bring in OPEX and Safety to state that HSR should not be done but still not able to prove

Didn't understand the bolded part. OpEx exists as long as you operate the system, not just for ten years. Revenue minus OpEx is the operational profit, which Delhi Metro is making of late due to its huge patronage. This profit is not sufficient to service loans.

As regards to safety, I don't think building HSRs in select few routes through central funds, citing safety, will be politically feasible in the long run. That said, why single out Bihar when even in Mumbai suburban railway, ten people lose lives every day, on an average? And thanks for stating that road safety is bad in India.

HSR is a tax burden on Indians

I would restate this as : India is not ready for HSR yet.

Lastly, please maintain some civility in discussions. I won't bother replying to your posts anymore if I find personal insults.

[prashanth]

HSR is a tax burden on Indians

I never made this statement.

[disha]

Where is a head banging against a brick wall icon when you need one?

[disha]

Exhibit A:

Saar, whether it comes from GOI's expenditure or through loans from foreign sources, ultimately it has to come from taxpayer's pocket.

And

Exhibit B:

HSR is a tax burden on Indians

I never made this statement.

You have not made the precise statement "HSR is a tax burden on Indians"., but you did make the statement that "ultimately it has to come from taxpayer's pocket". Please tell us how your statement is any way different or means different?

__________________

Let us see if FAQ helps.

1. Metro is required in dense cities., why waste money behind HSR?

A. Metro and HSR are different markets., it is like saying, why spend behind airplanes and airports since they do not serve any purpose in inner-city travel!? Just because YOU do not move between cities does not mean that crores of Indians do not move between cities. Every day some 1.1 crore Indians travel on long distance trains. That is @400 crore people or 40 Billion Indians on the move a year. Or entire population of >10 USofA traveling every year. And note., the passengers & kilometers travelled is only going to increase. Even if it is increasing at half the GDP growth rate at 4%., that is 1.6 Billion new passenger travel increase year-over-year.

The most efficient way to enable travel is to move that many people faster between destinations. Instead of moving say 1200 people over 6 hours between destinations., it is efficient to move 1200 people in 2 hours between same destination.

Several urban to urban corridors exist - Mumbai-Pune/Surat/Vadodra/Ahmedabad., Ahmedabad/Jaipur/Agra/Delhi., Secunderabad/Warangal/Nagpur, Vishakhpatnam/Bhubaneshwar/Kolkatta., Kochi/Bangalore/Chennai, Hyderabad/Vijaywada/Chennai. Each of this corridor will see passengers in millions traveling daily by 2020.

2. HSR is a tax burden on the nation.

A. No it is not. Read point 3.

3. HSR is funded by Japanese loan and hence it is a sovereign debt of India

A. No it is not. GOI negotiated deal does not mean that it is a sovereign debt of India. Resurgent India Bonds of 1998 was a sovereign debt. The bonds were issued globally and backed by the GOI. This is not.

Here the Japanese are going to loan the amount to a holding company - let us call it "NHSR Corporation Ltd". The holding company will build and operate the HSR and pay its debt obligation to the Japanese. If the HSR corporation is not profitable and is not able to pay its debt., then the japanese banks have the option of selling it to the IR (the other partner and 19% investor) at a loss. IR than owns and operates the "NHSR Corporation Ltd".

Hence calling it as Sovereign debt is intellectual dishonesty.

NHSR will generate revenue via ticket sales, offering its premises for leases to business and consultation services. All this revenue generation is not a tax burden on the the nation (or Indians) and neither it is coming from taxpayer's pockets.

4. HSR is not going to be profitable.

Profitability or loss does depends on multiple factors., to write it off as a loss making venture even before it has started is another intellectual dishonesty., since the first HSR proposed is going to run in a urban corridor with @100 million people as catchment. @1 Million a year traveling on HSR itself will make it extremely profitable on operations itself. HSR can also lease its services to other HSR corridors to earn revenue. Further, the infrastructure boom that construes to both Guj/Mah states will add to the state SDP making more passengers available for HSR. There are several paths to profitability and 81% of its initial investment is at a loan term of 0.1% - in essence., the initial 81% loan is negative-interest money when compared to the background inflation rate. If inflation is 5.1%., essentially the loan term is giving the NHSR corporation 5% of "money" free every year for next 50 years.

Hence to call out a loss on a infrastructure venture not yet built which is funded by a loan term on negative interest is plain wrong.

5. HSR will have a huge OPEX.

Wait., how does one know that it will have a huge OPEX? In general, the majority of the OPEX for Indian Railways is in salaries and social obligation. It is not the running stock but developing and operating un-profitable routes (social obligation) or using HSR as an employment scheme with all its pension obligations that will determine its OPEX. Hence to call out that this *will* be a huge OPEX burden on a profitable route is another intellectual dishonesty. Yes Laloos and Mamatas of future may treat it as an employment scheme and announce routes which can not be operated properly., if that is the fear - please do not elect Laloos and Mamatas of future.

6. HSR is not going to be safe.

HSR is Indian Shinkansen. If the same building, operating & maintaining processes are used as Shinkansen., then it is going to be as safe as Shinkansen. To say that Indians cannot operate an HSR safely is racial bigotry.

Further., with this HSR venture - India does not have to learn the hard way on building and operating a HSR. The technology and processes are mature and available for India to use.

[Rishi Verma]

^^

HSR is Indian Shinkansen. If the same building, operating & maintaining processes are used as Shinkansen., then it is going to be as safe as Shinkansen. To say that Indians cannot operate an HSR safely is racial bigotry.

Saar, it's not "racial bigotry" to point out the faults in own's society (low standards of education, engineering, innovation, safety norms, etc etc). Besides "Indian" isn't a "race".

PS I am not taking sides, but pls make a point or counter-point without labeling others as being "bigot"

[nachiket]

^^

Saar, it's not "racial bigotry" to point out the faults in own's society (low standards of education, engineering, innovation, safety norms, etc etc). Besides "Indian" isn't a "race".

So how is it that we have been able to maintain and operate civilian aircraft safely all these years?

[Suraj]

Can you please point me to a link where I can read more about this detail? I was not able to find anything like this.

Does that imply you have found and can post information that says the contrary, i.e. that it is sovereign debt ? Or that you just don't know ?

[Rishi Verma]

^^

Saar, it's not "racial bigotry" to point out the faults in own's society (low standards of education, engineering, innovation, safety norms, etc etc). Besides "Indian" isn't a "race".

So how is it that we have been able to maintain and operate civilian aircraft safely all these years?

I was only referring to the wording and not the technical aspects of the discussion. Besides your question is off topic for the thread.

[disha]

Saar, it's not "racial bigotry" to point out the faults in own's society (low standards of education, engineering, innovation, safety norms, etc etc). Besides "Indian" isn't a "race".

1. Indians are under one nation and hence can be treated as a single race of 'Indians' from the single nation of 'India'. It is akin to say that bolivians can never be able to learn to operate a lithium mine OR all africans are black (they are not!) and each of that does come under racial discrimination and can be successfully prosecuted. So your point on "Besides Indian isn't a 'race'" for racial discrimination purposes is untrue and further discussions on that topic can be carried out in other threads.

2. On low standards of education, engineering, innovation, safety norms - you are very wrong. Since you are bringing in the general standards to a specific case of Indian Railways. The standards of education, engineering, innovation and safety norms of Indian Railways should be compared with equivalent railways (only Chinese comes to the mind) and not to the safety norms of a truck operator plying between mumbai and ahmedabad.

You do have to chew on the fact that IR moves @4 Billion persons a year or >10 Americas a year. Only a professional organization can do that YoY.

Take this example., motorman of the mumbai suburban is a highly paid and highly trained individual. They get @80k/@1lakh per month as salary incl. various allowances and they are in training for a number of years before they are given an independent charge.

So to come back and say general 'low standards of education, engineering, innovation, safety norms' means that India (or IR) cannot operate HSR is again hollow. By that logic., India must curtail all its science and engineering and infrastructure programs.

Here is something you *must* know: Which Indian Railway station was the first superstructure platform station in Asia? This railway station has a platform not level at ground., but at a higher "first floor". This was first railway station with such a design in Asia and was considered as an engineering marvel for that era. 'low standards of engineering' !?

Again to bringing in orthogonal issues like 'poor standards of engineering' and hence we are not ready for HSR is a non-starter of a point. And again to say that nothing wrong in pointing out faults in our own society is tangential to the need for HSR and not an argument at all.

I can as well say that by bringing in HSR., social evils like low standards of engineering can be solved. And here actually I am right, because bringing in HSR will bring in techno-managerial changes for the better.