Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 07 Oct 2018 01:48

Mukhi wrote:Would Admins be Ok if I start a seperate thread to monitor the progress of Bullet train?? Please advise.

Please keep to this thread. Newcomers should prove their ability to sustain interest and information about a topic before being able to start off threads.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 07 Oct 2018 19:08

I had earlier mentioned IR has problems with running dual locomotives on a single train with independent pantographs - which cause oscillation issues with the OHE when running at high speeds (due to OHE design issues). But going by reports on IRFCA, looks like IR has not given up and is trying out various options - after trying dual WAP-5 locos at front, they are now trying the push-pull config to at least run at 130 kmph (which is not high speed as such), but get the benefit of EMU-like pickups, and a more uniform distribution of stress on the couplers between coaches.

This trial was done between Bandra and Vadodara with the special Rajdhani rake:

Credit to the uploader of this video, who also shared the info on IRFCA.

Let's see how these pan out.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 09 Oct 2018 01:06

Mumbai-Ahmedabad bullet train project: By January 2019, tenders worth Rs 88,000 crore to be floated

The National High Speed Corporation Limited (NHSRCL) is gearing to float more than 20 tenders for the bullet train project by January next year, sources in the railway ministry said. The tenders amounting to Rs 88,000 crore will be for coaches, infrastructure, signalling, technology, among others, the source said. Amid local resistance against land acquisition for the project, NHSRCL floated its first tender for the bullet train in July for building a bridge in Navsari district of Gujarat.

It will be the first of the 60-odd bridges on the 508-km high-speed corridor. The project which has been riddled with land issues in both Maharashtra and Gujarat has also been embroiled in court cases filed recently by five farmers who have questioned the process of acquisition and said that it should be governed by central laws.

Of the 508.17-km long corridor, 155.76 km will be in Maharashtra, 348.04 km in Gujarat and 4.3 km in Dadra and Nagar Haveli. NHSRCL is in the process of acquiring land with the help of the state governments. NHSRCL has to acquire 1,434 hectares of land from 298 villages in Gujarat and 350 hectares from 104 villages in Maharashtra.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Oct 2018 08:45

Its not really cost effective or optimal to run a light 16 coach train with two locos

Either we need emu trainsets for butter smooth nozomi n700 work
Or a uber engine like the tgv

Mukhi · Post by **Mukhi** » 11 Oct 2018 07:29

Suraj wrote:
Mukhi wrote:Would Admins be Ok if I start a seperate thread to monitor the progress of Bullet train?? Please advise.
Please keep to this thread. Newcomers should prove their ability to sustain interest and information about a topic before being able to start off threads.

NewComers kisko bola oye.

I have been "visiting" BR daily since its original days. Just dont post much as I find most of the participents here much more knowledgable and experienced in the field then I am. Even attended few meets with Anurag, Rony etc.

But I understand your concern. Felt Admins may not want and therefore asked the question before starting the new thread. No worries.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 11 Oct 2018 11:17

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... LXfsN.html

Indian Railways in September gave a presentation to a working group, which included representatives from India and Japan, monitoring implementation of the Mumbai-Ahmadabad High Speed Rail project, and projected Modern Coach Factory (MCF) in Raebareli, UP, as a potential manufacturing site for bullet train coaches, said one of the officials.

“MCF has robotic production lines and can be ideal for bullet train coaches. We will have to transfer the technology from one of the companies (manufacturing such coaches in Japan),” said the official.

The expected cost of local manufacturing of the bullet train coaches is yet to be worked out.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 12 Oct 2018 23:38

Train 18. Keeping it white is a bad idea with Indians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2_N8Uv91zo

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 13 Oct 2018 02:46

Let it come. We will make it red soon

.

That blacked up diesel engine again

What about engineless terain!!

Continuous windows will look gorgeous at 150 passing by though

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 13 Oct 2018 14:52

Yes, red from gutkha spit and then writing "Pappu loves Munni" in black. That engine is only for trials.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 13 Oct 2018 14:56

How many gutkha stains have we seen on metro trains?

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 13 Oct 2018 15:29

I have seen gutkha stains in metro stations in north India not on trains. It is largely a north Indian problem.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 14 Oct 2018 00:10

T-18 interiors.

https://www.financialexpress.com/infras ... 7709/lite/

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2018 16:57

well perhaps the improvement in speed will permit more overnight/day long journeys to be converted into chair car journeys which is logistically easier and cheaper for railways to manage.

but the hordes of trains heading out in all directions from the gangetic lands , packed to the rafters with economic migrants is another problem...albeit a problem that is seeing increasing number of skilled workers migrate to airlines under time is money

trains are probably easier to fix than 1000s of things in the tracks, culverts, bypass lines and signals required to permit a smooth high speed journey end to end.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 17 Oct 2018 16:58

Freight Corridor: Bhaupur-Khurja stretch to be operational by Dec

Tundla/Agra: If all goes as per the plan, the 340-km stretch of Bhaupur-Khurja patch on the Eastern Dedicated Freight Corridor would be operational by December end.

While talking to Millennium Post during an inspection of the project by the World Bank (South Asian Region) Vice President Hartwig Schafer at the site visit near Tundla in Uttar Pradesh, DFCC Managing Director AK Sachan said, "The work is in full swing and we are very much sure that this stretch would be commissioned by December end."

Sachan further said that after Bhaupur-Khurja stretch, we are very confident of completing the Rewari-Marwar (452 km) stretch on the western DFC in February 2019.

The World Bank representative also expressed his happiness over the pace of work and termed the DFCC a fantastic project. Schafer and Sachan, along with other officials of the DFCC and Word Bank, inspected the ongoing mechanised track laying work at the stretch on Sunday through track inspection wagon.

Notably, the World Bank is partly funding the dedicated freight corridor project.

"This is a fantastic project and we are happy that the World Bank is a little part of this great initiate by the government of India and for the people of India. The innovative technology used by DFCC will help new generation freight movement in the country from point A to point B. The project is climate-smart and will reduce carbon emissions and also unclog the roads ultimately adding up to the growth of the country's economy. I once again appreciate this fantastic project," Schafer told Millennium Post on board the track inspection vehicle.

Explaining about the use of advanced machines for track laying, Rajesh Khare, DGM (CC), said, "It's for the first time in Indian Railways history that DFCC is using most advanced machines. The New Track Construction (NTC) machines can lay around 2.5 km railway tracks in a day, while mechanised OHE machines can lay around 6 km electrical cables in a day."

Dedicated Freight Corridor Corporation of India (DFCCIL) is a special purpose vehicle of Railways Ministry.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 17 Oct 2018 17:06

Southern Railway becomes unmanned level crossing free zone

The Southern Railway Saturday said it has become "Unmanned Level Crossing (UMLC) Free Zone," by implementing a 2010 policy decision, eliminating over 1,000 such level crossings.

"In Southern Railway, Palakkad, Thiruvananthapuram and Chennai Divisions became UMLC free during the first quarter of the current year," it said in a release.

As on September 1, 2017, there were 311 UMLCs on the Southern Railway system which were targeted to be eliminated by this September as per Railway Minister Piyush Goyal's directives, it said.

"Accordingly, as on September 30, 2018, Southern Railway has eliminated all the remaining 311 UMLCs. With this, all the Unmanned Level Crossings in the zone have been totally eliminated thus enhancing safety," it said.

It recalled that the Railway Board had formulated a policy in 2010 to eliminate all such level crossings "from the system to prevent accidents" as were a 'safety hazard' for both Rail and Road users.

Accordingly, the elimination of all 1054 UMLCs were planned by offering alternate modes of crossing the track by provision of subways, diversion to adjacent manned level crossings, subways, road under bridges and outright closure due to low road traffic, it added.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 17 Oct 2018 17:17

Railways pitches for strategic line in Leh to be declared national project

Railways has proposed that its strategically significant Bilaspur-Manali-Leh line along the Indo-China border, which will be the world's highest railway track, be declared a national project, officials said Wednesday. It has also suggested that the construction on a 51 kilometre stretch between Upshi in Himachal Pradesh and Phe in Leh begin immediately.

"The first phase of the survey for the project has been completed and initial estimates put the cost of the 465 km line at Rs 83,360 crore. This is the most difficult project undertaken by the railways and is one of five most significant projects in terms of strategic importance. We have suggested that the project be declared a national project as once completed it will help our armed forces, as well as boost tourism and lead to the development of the region," said General Manager, Northern Railway, Vishesh Chaube.

The advantage of a project being declared a national project is that a major chunk of the funding for the project is borne by the central government.

The project, which will have a highest road point of 5360 metres above mean sea level, is comparable only to the Qinghai-Tibet Railway Line in China, which is at a height of around 2000 metres above sea level.

It was in September that Thupstan Chhewang, the BJP MP from Leh, had written a letter to the Minister of Railways to seek national project status for the project. "It would be of national interest to sanction this Bilaspur-Manali-Leh as a national project and undertake execution of its first part from Upshi to Leh may be started immediately on priority by the government after sanctioning its part estimate," he had written in the letter, a
copy of which is with PTI.

The 51 kilometre stretch is a gentle gradient compared to the rest of the project and is likely to be completed in two years' time with an approximate cost of Rs 5,000 crore, said Alok Kumar, Chief Administrative officer, Construction, Northern Railway. The line once completed will connect important locations between Bilaspur and Leh like Sundernagar, Mandi, Manali, Keylong, Koksar, Darcha, Upshi and Karu and other important towns of Himachal Pradesh and Jammu and Kashmir enroute.

The project will include 74 tunnels, 124 major bridges and 396 minor bridges, according to the first phase of the survey. The final location survey is expected to be completed in 30 months' time after which a detailed project report will be finalised, he said.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 18 Oct 2018 00:53

They should start the preliminary works on the other DFCs as the EDFC and WDFC should be completed by 2020.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Oct 2018 10:20

huge funding will be needed for that. after some initial noises, the UK could not follow through on a mumbai-blr-chennai corridor they wanted in on.
only japan has put money on table.

I was watching some of train journey videos on youtube. our 1AC/2AC current ICF/LHB interiors are way dated and below par compared to even the 2nd rung of such trains internationally like the trans siberian express or amtrak sleeper. the western EU and japan and china trains are a lot better. nothing seems designed for the harsh dusty wet conditions of india and the sheer load factor our rakes operate under.

train18 bridges that fitting gap but again small production run and targeted to replacing some shatabdi only (chair cars).

maybe the train20 will involve sleeper designs also ? I do not see any way to get delhi-chennai type runs down to 12 hrs chair car unless we sink $100b into each of these GQ/EWNS links a full mesh will be 6*100 and still take 10 years to acquire land and push through the dual HSR lines on each pair of nodes.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 19 Oct 2018 11:16

Delhi Chennai are best left for air travel, too long a distance (> 2000 km) for any train. Going forward, with increasing spending capability, we can see higher demand for flights.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 19 Oct 2018 11:38

Karthik S wrote:Delhi Chennai are best left for air travel, too long a distance (> 2000 km) for any train. Going forward, with increasing spending capability, we can see higher demand for flights.

But what if it were to be an overnight high-speed journey that takes ~8 hours to travel from Delhi to Chennai and vice-versa?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 19 Oct 2018 12:21

Kashi wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Delhi Chennai are best left for air travel, too long a distance (> 2000 km) for any train. Going forward, with increasing spending capability, we can see higher demand for flights.
But what if it were to be an overnight high-speed journey that takes ~8 hours to travel from Delhi to Chennai and vice-versa?

There's no way even a HSR can do ~ 2200 km journey in 8 hours. Even if it is a point to point trip not stopping anywhere between Delhi and Chennai. What is the capex to build such a line? What's the probability that such line's tickets will be less than that of air fare? Even if airfare were 10 to 15% more, who would want to do an overnight 12 hours trip in a train?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 19 Oct 2018 12:27

Distancewise:
Delhi-Chennai is comparable to Beijing-Guangzhou , where the fastest train is 8hrs
Delhi-Mumbai is comparable to Beijing-Shanghai , where the fastest train is 4:30hrs

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 19 Oct 2018 12:40

Karthik S wrote:There's no way even a HSR can do ~ 2200 km journey in 8 hours. Even if it is a point to point trip not stopping anywhere between Delhi and Chennai. What is the capex to build such a line? What's the probability that such line's tickets will be less than that of air fare? Even if airfare were 10 to 15% more, who would want to do an overnight 12 hours trip in a train?

As Suraj-san pointed out, CHR runs regular services along similar distances. An overnight travel run at Shinkansen speeds (avg. 320kmph) with intermediate stops can probably cover Delhi-Chennai (with stops at Nagpur, Secunderabad etc.) in 10 hours, which means you board a train at 9:00 PM at NDLS and get off at MAS at 7:00 next morning.

Of course the demand needs to be assessed, but if Delhi-Mumbai route is anything to go by, despite frequent flights, the two Rajdhanis are sold-out throughout the year and they take much longer than the average flights.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 19 Oct 2018 12:44

Indeed, that's an average speed of 275 kmph, pretty achievable. But I how many people will prefer it over 2.5 hours flight. More immediate requirements are Chennai-Bangalore, I see many senior management guys frequenting this route every week. Then Hyd-Bang and possibly Hyd-Chennai, which can be later developed to Delhi Chennai.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 19 Oct 2018 12:47

Karthik S wrote:Indeed, that's an average speed of 275 kmph, pretty achievable. But I how many people will prefer it over 2.5 hours flight. More immediate requirements are Chennai-Bangalore, I see many senior management guys frequenting this route every week. Then Hyd-Bang and possibly Hyd-Chennai, which can be later developed to Delhi Chennai.

The answers to your questions can be seen in the popularity of the CHR routes listed above. The point here is that this is not unprecedented. There are already two very popular HSR routes of almost exactly the same distance between city pairs of almost the same kind of relationship , in a neighboring country with comparable population and somewhat higher development standard.

Supply creates its own demand. Just how easy is it to walk up and get a seat on a same day trip by air or rail in 1A/1B/2A on these routes ? This isn't something that requires a leap of faith - it's already been proven to unlock travel demand right next door.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Oct 2018 14:24

before china did it, there was skepticism about these very long HSR rides - the hong kong to peking is 12 hrs iirc.....but it was done and maybe will not be full for some time. but such is the populations economic growth that things will get filled. for example, suppose only 20% pax are delhi-chennai , rest 20% could be delhi-bhopal, bhopal-hyd, hyd-chennai....we can think of it as 3 smaller HSR end to end using the same rake...the shorter inter city HSR you talked of as viable.

UP and Bihar and north WB have few airports and the densest train clientale. HSR will work for sure there in between delhi to malda.

if we sit and wait for a cast iron use case, it will be like bengaluru infra

the airport resembles a bus station at 2 am in the night ... and metro construction crawls along while seething traffic below. IL&FS which was L1 for the ORR metro is supine. retendering is being planned.

when Eisenhower spent a fortune to build the interstate system in the 50s (he had seen the worlds first expways in germany and italy in WW2), people pooh poohed him. being the supreme allied commander mostly involved in planning the large scale offensives, he of all people understood the need and effect of good logistics.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 19 Oct 2018 19:10

Yeah, about the IL&FS debacle, I am not sure how much public information was there. But it seems there was enough info about their balance sheet and current state to disqualify them anyway from ORR tendering. I cant imagine how the SG did not know about it even if the retail investor didn't. Or were they hoping against hope that somehow IL&FS will hobble through the ORR lines at cheap rates anyway and get some shabby line done. I wonder how much difference is there between IL&FS and the next bidder. They should go for accelerated tendering and finalize in 2 months if possible at all.

Also, how much truth is there in the statement that the SG has no money for the ORR metro and needs corporate assistance. I mean the large number of commercial and residential establishments pay large property taxes right. They seem to have had enough money for the metro lines for the landlords sitting in North Bangalore, munching on their multiple corporate and residential properties' rent money from the South.

Also I don't get why the SG doesn't try more aggressive solutions, if they are totally incompetent in everything else. They could restrict influx of vehicles from the surrounding areas and complexes from 8 to 11 except emergency vehicles. And dedicate one lane to buses from the gained space. Let them try that for a month. There is going to be a big hue and cry but the SG should be able to handle it. The traffic is bad enough for extraordinary measures.

Unfortunately such a step will be scuttled by the car industry lobby and logistics and real estate mafia. The wont be able to run their logistics and construction trucks either(or there will be a even bigger hue and cry at the sheer injustice of it)

I think the success of the auto industry has been a curse on our cities. In all other big cities of the world they tax car ownership highly and that reduces the number of cars on the road. Or they restrict vehicle movement which disincentivizes car ownership. Try that in India and the car makers will be on the govt's case the next minute. I wish we had success in the consumer electronics industry instead

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 19 Oct 2018 19:27

As discussed earlier, HSR stations need to be from business center to business center to have any chance against the speed of air travel. In Bangalore its tougher to reach Majestic to catch a train(3 hrs) as compared to reaching the airport(1.5 hrs). Most of the senior managers who need to travel to Chennai or Hyd regularly live in the South. They will not spend 3 hrs to reach Majestic and another 3 hrs travelling to another city. But land acquisition and lack of money is so severe already that there isn't even enough to fill pot holes.

Maybe bullet train can break even with the local traders travelling from Majestic to Chennai every day

I hear business is positively roaring for them.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 19 Oct 2018 19:36

^^Totally tangential, but from BLR South to Majestic, in metro, usually the travel time is anywhere between 10 to 30 minutes. I doubt there is space available at Majestic for a HSR terminal (unless they decide to build one below ground underneath existing station...like how they have done in NY Penn station IIRC)...However, it would take 2 hrs plus to reach BLR airport in peak hour from BLR South.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 19 Oct 2018 19:54

Tangential again, but BLR South is a huge place with no metro access in most areas along ORR and surroundings. The 10 to 30 mins applies for only those living on the other side of that great mammoth - Silk Board. Maybe by 2025 or later it will become true.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Oct 2018 20:17

The hsr terminal could potentially be made in whitefield with direct connectivity to the ongoing metro line going to mg road and the planned orr metro

There is no room to lay hsr line through city to majestic

Another option is near hebbal where a railway line hardly used goes parallel to the bial expway then loops down via bangarapet to join the main chennai line in the jolarpettai area in a great circle. It can potentially be changed to a hsr line albeit loopy

Or do both and use hebbal as launchpad for blr hyderabad hsr

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 19 Oct 2018 20:26

Singha wrote:before china did it, there was skepticism about these very long HSR rides - the hong kong to peking is 12 hrs iirc.....but it was done and maybe will not be full for some time. but such is the populations economic growth that things will get filled. for example, suppose only 20% pax are delhi-chennai , rest 20% could be delhi-bhopal, bhopal-hyd, hyd-chennai....we can think of it as 3 smaller HSR end to end using the same rake...the shorter inter city HSR you talked of as viable.

I'll take a leaf out of your active imagination and assert one of my favourite wishes once more: I want to see a Delhi-Mumbai *and* Delhi-Chennai HSR, perhaps the latter like the E5/E6 double sets, which split off at HYD and one set goes to BLR and the other to MAA. The DEL-BOM line being the marquee name, and the latter, the sword of the nation route, running the entire expanse across the country between major population centers every night, at 300-350km/h . These things would be a spotters dream, except in Indian colors:

8:25 is the best part

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 19 Oct 2018 20:44

Railways to produce metro rail coaches under Make In India initiative.

For the first time, Indian Railways will manufacture metro rail coaches at its Rae Bareilly based factory under the Make In India scheme, an official said Thursday. The coaches will be manufactured by robots and will be on par with those being manufactured by Canadian firm Bombardier, currently being used by metro trains in the country.

They will be 40 per cent cheaper than those procured from China and other countries and will be equipped with wi-fi, CCTV cameras, mobile charging outlets among other facilities, the official said.

Agarwal said the expansion of the MCF at a cost of Rs 480 crore-- including recruitment of experts and technicians on a large scale-- will be completed by December 2018.

"It will also be the first factory in the country where coaches will be produced by robots," he said.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 19 Oct 2018 20:47

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... jab/301717

Train mows down people in amritsar watching dusshera celebration using rail tracks as viewing gallery. Sad state of affairs.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 19 Oct 2018 21:01

Just saw. Absolutely shocking. How did they ever get permission to burst crackers near a railway line!!

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 19 Oct 2018 21:05

A Nandy wrote:Just saw. Absolutely shocking. How did they ever get permission to burst crackers near a railway line!!

There is a "Ramlila Park" right by the double track main line https://goo.gl/maps/eq4G3ZNx5Cu. It's not too big, good for the Ramlila drama but certainly a hazard for fireworks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Oct 2018 21:23

in that video the TGV suffered from wire oscillation and continuous sparking from 420 kmph onward

saip · Post by **saip** » 19 Oct 2018 23:38

An accident near Amritsar. 58 dead. Mostly Dussera revelers on the tracks.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Oct 2018 02:57

The dusshera was in a ground right next to the railway tracks.
It looks like people were standing on the tracks.
When the fireworks went off, two fast trains came in suddenly. The drivers must have honked, but people couldn't hear because of the fire crackers.

The videos are horrifying.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 20 Oct 2018 07:55

Singha wrote:The hsr terminal could potentially be made in whitefield with direct connectivity to the ongoing metro line going to mg road and the planned orr metro

There is no room to lay hsr line through city to majestic

Another option is near hebbal where a railway line hardly used goes parallel to the bial expway then loops down via bangarapet to join the main chennai line in the jolarpettai area in a great circle. It can potentially be changed to a hsr line albeit loopy

Or do both and use hebbal as launchpad for blr hyderabad hsr

Whitefield will doom the line to failure, metro notwithstanding. The time taken to go to Whitefield even by metro from the west/south BLR will be an hour by itself. And keep in mind BLR's famed skill in bringing transit points that are "so near, yet too far", we have to doubt how easy metro + HSR can be integrated at WFD. The current metro station at WFD does not connect to WFD IR station. Same at Majestic. Go figure. Also keep in mind the Shatabdis today goes city centre to city centre in under 5 hours, which will come down to under 4 after the current tracks are upgraded to 130kmph. 3 hours by HSR (1 hr to get to WFD, 1.5hrs to Chennai, and another 30 mins to get to city centre there (assuming a better terminal location there)) is not that competitive with the existing setup, but I will end up paying a lot more.

Better to bring the HSR in to some point inside the city with proximity to metro (conditions apply as above, but at least the average passenger doesn't have to travel a lot). Underground, of course. Integrate that with the HYB line so both lines have a good opportunity to attract pax as connect both lines. Of course, have a satellite pickup/drop station enroute - Whitefield/Marathalli and Hebbal/airport for the HYB line. There are any number of places within the city for the terminal: my personal favourite, the race course near Seshadripuram, Kanteerava stadium, (if the Army would be kind enough) parade grounds behind Chinnaswamy, the Majestic bus stand itself, etc. These are open spaces with good access and no loss of tree cover, and can be restored once the station is completed. Kanteerava in fact can become like the NY Penn + Madison Square garden.