Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

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Singha
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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 20 Oct 2018 09:42

>> Underground, of course.

you broke the deal right there. BLR metro with its thin lines and small trains cannot afford to go underground on ORR and you want BR IR trains dual tracked underground for miles under the city.

it will not happen though its logical.

if the twisty stretches near jolarpettai can be fixed, the current line upgraded may be fine as you say. same for blr mysore maybe with some track changes it can be semi-HSR.

very few countries if any have been able to blend in their HSR over regular non-HSR working infra. perhaps the german ICE trains do it.
the french and japanese built dedicated fenced lines for HSR and so did Cheen. with Cheen adding a layer of Shakinah stations on top of it while frenchies I believe use existing stations

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 20 Oct 2018 10:02

BLR metro not going UG was not the result of a feasibility study, soil test, etc., was it? AFAICT, the GoK has been very reluctant to build a metro on this route for various reasons, but cost of UG has not been one of them. Sure, UG is costly, but if any place needed a UG metro, that was ORR, given the sheer volume of traffic - we are in for a terrible time if and when the elevated line's construction starts here. In fact, I am constantly surprised by the insistence of the GoK to get funding from corporate sources for this line, despite these very corporates significantly filling GoK's coffers already.

Point is, Namma metro is no benchmark when it comes to planning. The HSR line is going to cost around ₹1 lakh crore going by the estimates of the Mumbai-Ahmedabad line, so another 5k crores to build a tunnel will not bloat up the cost too much, and assure better RoI.

Lastly, the same logic has spurred the Mum-AMD line to start from BKC instead of, say Borivali or Virar. Virar is the equivalent of WFD in Mumbai.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 20 Oct 2018 11:01

Mumbai, Abad are run a lot better than Bluru.
here everything is held together with glue and duct tape.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 20 Oct 2018 11:07

^^ No disagreements there.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby yensoy » 20 Oct 2018 11:33

Singha wrote:if the twisty stretches near jolarpettai can be fixed, the current line upgraded may be fine as you say. same for blr mysore maybe with some track changes it can be semi-HSR.


"Twisty stretches" are where the climb/descent happens, and for that very reason they won't go away. JTJ-1 to JTJ+1 is 120m elevation difference.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Zynda » 20 Oct 2018 21:56

First pic of completed (?) exterior pic of Train-18. Looks not too bad...
Image

I am not sure if required tests can be done and required safety clearances can be obtained in a few months. I'd think first service might start around mid-2019.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 21 Oct 2018 09:08

yensoy wrote:
Singha wrote:if the twisty stretches near jolarpettai can be fixed, the current line upgraded may be fine as you say. same for blr mysore maybe with some track changes it can be semi-HSR.


"Twisty stretches" are where the climb/descent happens, and for that very reason they won't go away. JTJ-1 to JTJ+1 is 120m elevation difference.


straight climbs or descents must be there in japan and europe HSR also - not a problem.
but twisty turns of shallow radius is the speed killer.
for eg there is a famous 180' kind of turn in jolarpettai

here https://www.google.com/maps/place/Jolar ... 78.5766914


Image

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 21 Oct 2018 09:30

The Government Railway Police have registered the case under sections 304 (punishment for culpable homicide not amounting to murder), 304A (causing death by negligence) and 338 (causing grievous hurt by act endangering life or personal safety of others) of the IPC.

This comes just hours after a video showed an organiser boasting to the chief guest, Congress leader and former lawmaker Navjot Kaur Sidhu that the crowd there was so enthusiastic to see her that they would stand on the nearby railway tracks and not budge even if hundreds of trains pass by.

“Madam, look here, these people don't care about standing on tracks. Over 5,000 people are (standing) on (railway tracks) lines for you and even if 500 trains pass by, they will not move,” the organiser could be heard saying in the clip.

The video suggests the tragedy was a direct result of deadly negligence; the organisers were aware of the danger but took no precautions.

Vijay Madan is the sitting councillor from ward number 29 falling under the Amritsar East assembly constituency. The Madan family members were the main organisers of the Dussehra event where the train accident took place.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/amrit ... _top_pos_1

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby jpremnath » 21 Oct 2018 11:37

IMHO, any future HSR between Chennai and Bangalore should bypass the current route entirely...take a Bangalore-Tirupati-Chennai Route...Tirupati can then be a junction for future Hyd line...can save on having separate Blr-Hyd and Hyd-Chennai HSR routes..

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 21 Oct 2018 12:06

^^ That's actually a good idea. Tirupati will also ensure a steady stream of traffic.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 21 Oct 2018 12:33

jpremnath wrote:IMHO, any future HSR between Chennai and Bangalore should bypass the current route entirely...take a Bangalore-Tirupati-Chennai Route...Tirupati can then be a junction for future Hyd line...can save on having separate Blr-Hyd and Hyd-Chennai HSR routes..


going via chittor road (old madras route) is the current plan for both HSR and expressway. dont know if it touches tirupati but good idea. from tirupati could connect the andhra new capital Amravati to Vijaywada and then up to Hyd via warangal

could reuse vijaywada - nellore - tirupati HSR for howrah to chennai and howrah to blr HSR when it happens

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 21 Oct 2018 12:38

Image

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 21 Oct 2018 12:46

Seems the new alignment that passes through AP, it's a protected forest/reserve. Will be difficult to get the necessary clearances.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 21 Oct 2018 12:47

nallamalla forests of red sandalwood smuggling fame I think. might need to change it to parallel the existing red road.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 21 Oct 2018 12:58

Koundinya Wildlife Sanctuary.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 22 Oct 2018 08:43

cheen opens a 55km bridge from HK to Zhuhai including a undersea tunnel stretch

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/21/worl ... index.html

took 10 years and $20b but got done.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 22 Oct 2018 08:47

taiwan train accident killed 18 people. the coaches look quite like our train18 type. as designed they did not climb on top of one another but lay like a zig zag on the ground. no breaks seen, so the people must have been knocked about inside and died.

makes me think anytime you start cruising over 150kmph, its better to enforce a seatbelt policy on HSR ....

Image
Image

large bus accidents are also very fatal due to no seatbelts usually.

cars while looking 'weak' usually slide away due to seatbelt and airbags.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 22 Oct 2018 10:27

hard rock onlee saar coming back to haunt us. the walking 500m is the killer part. rest they can use escalators. footpaths on that side of MG road aint good. commuter rush needs wide clear footpaths. perhaps a elevated walkway or underground tube can be made :D

Image


FIVE LEVELS OF SEPARATION: By taking #Bengaluru Metro overground on the iconic M G Road, commuters will now have to cross FIVE LEVELS from purple line to the Nagawara-Gottigere line at the MG Road station. Poor foresight, advice from mobility experts ignored. @DeccanHerald

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby SaiK » 23 Oct 2018 15:46


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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Supratik » 23 Oct 2018 17:56

That cattle guard in the front is tacky. Looks like jugaad.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby nam » 23 Oct 2018 18:08

First attempt, it is fabulous. I am pleasantly surprised. Train-20 will be aluminium. Success of this model will cause major investment from GoI as calls will grow to apply this on other major and sub urban routes.

The end to end glass pane makes it look elegant. A bit of other color combo and you have a good product.

We should have done this long time back and should have been exporting trains.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby hanumadu » 23 Oct 2018 18:16

Train 20 will be license produced using foreign technology though.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 23 Oct 2018 18:24

The cowcatcher is there for a purpose, and it is not an elegant one . It is quite likely an RDSO design based on studies into how to effectively get the intrusion out of the way without derailment . There’s no point in nitpicking a practical item that’s there for our safety .

For a first attempt at an intercity high end (by Indian standards) train, this is a great job! What’s more, it is ready on time - our in 2018 , I commend IR for having the courage to do something entirely uncharacteristic- they could have just stuck a more powerful engine in front of more LHBs, but they chose to use their knowledge of commuter EMUs and LHB coaches to build an intercity EMU instead - at half the cost of importing something like this.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 23 Oct 2018 18:27

hanumadu wrote:Train 20 will be license produced using foreign technology though.

Do you have an article reference for this ? I was under the impression the Train 18 Ian meant to replace Sharabdis and Train 20s are sleeper class to replace Rajdhanis.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby nam » 23 Oct 2018 18:35

Read some twitter feedback and interesting to note that we Indians seem to be surprised that we have a quality product. Our sense of self doubt has very much effected our sense of innovation.

Personally I did not believe when the first CGI came out that this will be created and on time. Nothing but kudos to IR.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 23 Oct 2018 18:39

Suraj wrote:
hanumadu wrote:Train 20 will be license produced using foreign technology though.

Do you have an article reference for this ? I was under the impression the Train 18 Ian meant to replace Sharabdis and Train 20s are sleeper class to replace Rajdhanis.


IIRC, along with that Train 20 has top speed of 200 KMPH and it will be introduced in 2020.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Supratik » 23 Oct 2018 18:45

I am glad the body of T18 looks machined and not the "hammered look" of IR bogies. The streamlining of the bogies is also great. Cabin cab is not that great. The interiors look the best of any IR trains I have seen.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 23 Oct 2018 19:33

EMUs and lighter Al bodies will enable trains to accelerate faster . Top speed counts for little if it takes a long time to reach it, because high speeds cannot be sustained long enough .

This data was posted in the earliest pages of this thread - even our fastest trains accelerate approximately 0.6 km/h/s . The Shinkansen accelerates about 4-5x faster .

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 23 Oct 2018 20:47

with no fenced tracks even 150kmph sounds kinda dangerous to me. buses, trucks, tractors are always moving around looking for shortcuts.
when driving at night I always avoid the fast lane next to the bushy median as "kamandus" can jump out there anytime on bikes or foot. :roll:

another threat is parked trucks on driving lane with lights all off, esp with long iron rods hanging out with a red wisp of cloth. one of my btech batchmates died on a scooter from such a situation, on the day he got a campus job selection. it was terrible to watch his brothers cremate him and the sorrow of the parents losing their son on the verge of passing out.

perhaps a 5km range pencil beam radar be fitted onto the cab as a GMTI JSTARS sensor to warn the driver of potential threats :evil: the kind of longbow radar the apaches use.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 23 Oct 2018 20:55

Yes it's a fair criticism. The recent tragic accident is another reminder of the problems. The circumstances were so avoidable. It wasn't like they were standing under an HT power line that gave away without notice. They were standing on railway tracks. There's a limit to which you can blame the festival organiser or IR. Every last person there knows what a train and train track is. They were mostly adults, capable of judging the ambient noise level and crowd and think of keeping away from the tracks, but did not.

Train-18 and Train-20 are going to ride down such tracks, with all the attendant risks.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Supratik » 23 Oct 2018 21:34

There is a proposal by IR under Piyush Goyal to wall the entire length of semi-high tracks.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 23 Oct 2018 23:43

It has to be done .

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby hanumadu » 24 Oct 2018 04:16

Suraj wrote:
hanumadu wrote:Train 20 will be license produced using foreign technology though.

Do you have an article reference for this ? I was under the impression the Train 18 Ian meant to replace Sharabdis and Train 20s are sleeper class to replace Rajdhanis.


IIRC, The official of ICF said this in a youtube video when the news of train 18 and 20 first came out. The T20 will have a aluminium body and will be lighter than T18. The video was probably posted on this channel thread.
Last edited by hanumadu on 24 Oct 2018 05:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby hanumadu » 24 Oct 2018 05:27

^^Watch from 5:00 where the official says Train 20 will be selected by a global bid process.


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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Oct 2018 06:43

Karthik S wrote:Seems the new alignment that passes through AP, it's a protected forest/reserve. Will be difficult to get the necessary clearances.

I think this alignment avoids the sanctuary, while driving this summer the sanctuary starts a few km South of Palamaner. This alignment just passes North of the Sanctuary.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby JohnTitor » 24 Oct 2018 09:40

{Deleted . Stop posting such comments.}

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Pratyush » 24 Oct 2018 11:34

Self deleted

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 24 Oct 2018 12:30

hanumadu wrote:
Suraj wrote:Do you have an article reference for this ? I was under the impression the Train 18 Ian meant to replace Sharabdis and Train 20s are sleeper class to replace Rajdhanis.


IIRC, The official of ICF said this in a youtube video when the news of train 18 and 20 first came out. The T20 will have a aluminium body and will be lighter than T18. The video was probably posted on this channel thread.

This seems to be a changing story. Best as I understand it,
* Originally the plan was to open tender for a foreign entity to transfer technology for license production of aluminium coaches and a full trainset.
* Only Talgo responded, and they got to trial the coaches in India
* In the absence of competitive tendering, the whole plan is hanging fire.
* Meanwhile IR / ICF went ahead and designed Train 18, implementing an EMU trainset within record time. It's not perfect, but for an organization hitherto happy to mass produce the same coaches seen for decades now, this is a pathbreaking step.
* Train 20 meanwhile still remains some kind of phoren collaboration thing. But considering Train-18. perhaps IR should learn lightweight Al coach building the hard way itself and develop local designs just like they did with Train 18.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Supratik » 24 Oct 2018 13:01

Per what I understand import of foreign trainsets have been dropped. T20 is going to be similar to T18 i.e. a mixture of imports and local with local assembly.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby hanumadu » 25 Oct 2018 01:31



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