Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

[A Nandy]

Fraaaack!!! look awesome on the go!!

Maybe they kept it open for low speed testing in case it stops midway and has to be hauled
I thought the nose cone is easily closable with a button press.

Japanese new sleeper class:



Maybe T20 can be rid of the isle beds. Sleeper class should be only for fun travel

[abhijitm]

We need to get rid of sleeper class for all journeys within 18 hrs distance. If people can travel 14 hrs in flight they can sit and sleep in same sitting arrangement. Make seats little more spacious with better leg room.

This will substantially reduce railway loses due to bedsheet theft.

[hnair]

Train18 is the bomb! smooth...

souravB, issue is with having a swing-role bogey requirement like IR, that can be a sleeper at night and a seater during day. cheap air travel is the only long term solution to India's farflung railway users. More efficient stacking of sleepers can lead to less efficient seating. Affordable commuter-air travel between main nodes + Train 18 can cover almost all parts of India in a day. Cheen' long distance HSR is a temporary high and India does not have frequent dense clusters like Europe. Khan, who has similar issues as us (except in the dense North-East Megalopolis region), realized it a long while ago and still balks at HSR. The sheer maintanence cost in manpower taken by these finnnicky tracks, when compared to a large and flexible fleet of aircraft is not worth the trouble of the astronomical CAPEX

[JayS]

Our current requirement of Sleeper bogies is driven by inordinate time taken by trains. Some trains take three days from Mumbai to Hawrah or to Ambala. The IR should set itself a target like "Anywhere in India within 24-hour" for next 15yr time frame. If this can be done then we wont need sleeper class trains for at all for normal folks. Single 24hr journey can be easily done with nice recliner chairs with single 8hr sleep needed. A bit more spacious that what Airlines offer of coarse. Such journey in AC for every single person, that itself is a huge upgrade from current cattle-class journey. Sleeper bogies can be given only to 2nd or 1st Class. A few sleeper trains like Rajdhani be still run as above normal offerings for overnight journeys.

Basically convert entire sleeper and general class 3 to AC chair cars.

But I Agree with hnair that we need a comprehensive long distance mass passenger Transport policy with Rails, Waterways and Aviation taken together. No need to duplicate Capex. Decide upon one model. Its the matter of choosing one maodel and making it work. Untimately its this policy that will drive the economy and technological solutions to adapt themselves to it. The other way will take quite a qhile to reach equillibrium. And opening up the transport sector to pvt tech innovation based companies a must.

[Supratik]

Can't happen without track quadrupling, signaling, track upgradation, fencing. A massive project of at least 20 years.

[Kashi]

Can't happen without track quadrupling, signaling, track upgradation, fencing. A massive project of at least 20 years.

And immense amounts of money. Economy needs to be firing on all cylinders to sustain such capex.

[JayS]

We have seen a lot of things happening lately which were previously thought impossible.

[Singha]

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... t-5452687/

Massive amts of 2.7m concrete fences to be erected

Safety for ppl and cattle
Semi hsr

[nam]

With some aero improvement and aluminium replacing steel, if we can create a 220-230kph sustain train, it is fairly good for long distance and city- suburb connections.

Much cheaper than putting in place a bullet train. A 30 minutes gives 110km. From a city center you can have suburbs at these distances and reduce over crowding with frequent 30 mnts train ride.

[Singha]

Seems dibrugarh to kanyakumari vivekananda exp is a 4400km astonishing 80 hr journey the longest train ride in india

Most of the top10 trains are all 3000km and 70 stops per youtube

[Singha]

160kmph is no big deal for a light aluminium emu on good tracks
Its routine second tier stuff in g8
Mostly their ice trains are 220-250 peak

[souravB]

souravB, issue is with having a swing-role bogey requirement like IR, that can be a sleeper at night and a seater during day. cheap air travel is the only long term solution to India's farflung railway users. More efficient stacking of sleepers can lead to less efficient seating. Affordable commuter-air travel between main nodes + Train 18 can cover almost all parts of India in a day. Cheen' long distance HSR is a temporary high and India does not have frequent dense clusters like Europe. Khan, who has similar issues as us (except in the dense North-East Megalopolis region), realized it a long while ago and still balks at HSR. The sheer maintanence cost in manpower taken by these finnnicky tracks, when compared to a large and flexible fleet of aircraft is not worth the trouble of the astronomical CAPEX

Our situation is not at all similar to Khans who is almost thrice of our size and quarter of the population. They have overnight buses who cannot afford air-travel and many people have cars added with cheap oil, they do not need railways much. HSR or Airports they had to invest in both, and they chose Airports.
Let's do a case study of one metro to metro connectivity by rail in India
Howrah-Delhi route has more than 10 different trains carrying 1k reserved seat people everyday and the tickets are sold almost 3 months before the journey. Even if half of them flies what would be the number of flights required to ferry them everyday? the CAPEX required to support that rise of passengers through infra? also who will regulate skyrocketing air-fares? I haven't even considered environmental and resource constraints.
Air travel will fill in gaps to the ever increasing demands but it cannot solve it.
What I was suggesting is for the other half and non-reserved who will just sit on the floor for 24 hours. This is the reason we need capacity increase even if right now that comes at the cost of HSR. CAPEX would not be a big factor because the rail infra is already there and pretty extensive. We just need to design DD coaches that can have similar two deck arrangements.
With some clever and innovative designs the swing role requirements can be managed for which I am hopeful. our 3T sleepers are already very efficient but doesn't hamper seating.
Also I would like to add HSR above ground is not a sustainable route for us IMO. India is too big to make HSR sustainable. Our tracks are already good enough to support 200KMPH whereas most express trains have a sustained top speed not exceeding 100KMPH. This is one low hanging fruit where increasing the sustained top speed by 50% we can reduce travel time.
so TL;DR

• USA and India are different in we already have a pretty extensive rail infra so less CAPEX.
• Right now we should be concentrating on low hanging fruits like capacity increase and sustained speed increase.
• HSR is unsustainable for a big and varied country like ours. Semi HSR is what we should be striving for and is achievable without large CAPEX.

But I Agree with hnair that we need a comprehensive long distance mass passenger Transport policy with Rails, Waterways and Aviation taken together. No need to duplicate Capex. Decide upon one model. Its the matter of choosing one maodel and making it work. Untimately its this policy that will drive the economy and technological solutions to adapt themselves to it. The other way will take quite a qhile to reach equillibrium. And opening up the transport sector to pvt tech innovation based companies a must.

Jays sir I totally agree with your point that we need to build substantial capacity in waterways too along with rail and air. Some BoB and ArSea routes can be looked into connecting atleast 3 metros and few more cities along the coast. But then these will be slower and generally more expensive travel routes compared to even air travel. Maybe offload goods transport? or large cruise ships that will have numbers to offset costs.
Maybe it is time to fold all these different ministries to fold onto a single one or forming some kind of Parivahan Aayog

[Kashi]

Also I would like to add HSR above ground is not a sustainable route for us IMO. India is too big to make HSR sustainable.

Not if you view an HSR network as a series of interconnected short journeys. For instance, the Delhi Mumbai HSR route may be viewed as a fusion of Delhi-Ahmedabad/Jaipur and Ahmedabad/Surat-Mumbai routes. Some passengers may travel the entire length, but most would stick to shorter travels- ~550km or less. As the Chinese experience has shown, there's a demand for overnight HSR between two major population and commercial centres, which Delhi and Mumbai are.

Our tracks are already good enough to support 200KMPH whereas most express trains have a sustained top speed not exceeding 100KMPH. This is one low hanging fruit where increasing the sustained top speed by 50% we can reduce travel time.
so TL;DR

Not really, there are issues with alignments, curvatures, signalling systems, rolling stock and most of all lack of access control barriers. Even if all these were to be solved, the tracks themselves would need changing from the rails (the type of steel, the length oh the individual rails themselves, the welding etc.), to the sleepers to the ballast, to be able to run consistently at 200 KMPH. All of it necessitates huge expenditure.

[souravB]

Not if you view an HSR network as a series of interconnected short journeys. For instance, the Delhi Mumbai HSR route may be viewed as a fusion of Delhi-Ahmedabad/Jaipur and Ahmedabad/Surat-Mumbai routes. Some passengers may travel the entire length, but most would stick to shorter travels- ~550km or less. As the Chinese experience has shown, there's a demand for overnight HSR between two major population and commercial centres, which Delhi and Mumbai are.

Kashi ji, my contention was HSR network above ground would be like a white elephant to maintain and keep operational. Even if the tracks are laid in parts and people change trains, the effective track length is not reduced and would be similarly CAPEX intensive to lay and maintain.

Not really, there are issues with alignments, curvatures, signalling systems, rolling stock and most of all lack of access control barriers. Even if all these were to be solved, the tracks themselves would need changing from the rails (the type of steel, the length oh the individual rails themselves, the welding etc.), to the sleepers to the ballast, to be able to run consistently at 200 KMPH. All of it necessitates huge expenditure.

These can be and need to be upgraded. We cannot change geography but the rest is already being started or is being planned in a phased manner.
SHS rail track plan
access control barrier plan
I made a mistake while saying our tracks are rated for the speed which doesn't mean they can sustain it. But they can do sustain 130-140KMPH which is the 50% increase in speed. Also ICF has experience building coaches rated for that speed so they can be asked to build DD coaches for mass use. These coaches won't be aerodynamic or light weight.

[Kashi]

Kashi ji, my contention was HSR network above ground would be like a white elephant to maintain and keep operational. Even if the tracks are laid in parts and people change trains, the effective track length is not reduced and would be similarly CAPEX intensive to lay and maintain.

I should clarify, the HSR corridors should be put up only where there is a semblance of sustainable and persistent demand. Mumbai-Ahmedabad (with a potential extension to Delhi and Pune) is one of those sections. These routes are likely to be used by those who prioritise time over fares (such as those who travel by air) and that's what will pay for the network.

The system is not to be conceived as a subsidised public mass-transit project, rather out and out a commercial venture that pays for itself. Much like commercial airlines fly the routes that bring in maximum profit.

That's the thing. All of the upgrades will require massive CAPEX. CAPEX that will have to come from other budgetary sources, since Railways do not earn enough surpluses to plough back into infrastructure building.

For instance, fencing the tracks mean acquiring additional land- I am aware that Railways own most of the land along the tracks but that is not always not the case and the land is often encroached.

A lot more will be required-
1. Signalling systems that can handle a much larger number of passenger train movements per hour.

2. IR currently runs 24-bogie/carriage passenger trains. Running them consistently at 200 KMPH will require a completely different set up as compared to occasionally touching 130-140 KMPH on stretches. The rolling stock will have to be lighter, durable and capable of accelerating and braking quickly. Also it will need to be tested extensively before being deployed en masse. LHB coaches have been tested at 180 KMPH, but it remains to be seen if that can be upped to 200 KMPH. Will probably require a redesign. Alternative is to have completely new train sets, Train 18 is step in that direction.

3. Then there are tracks, bridges, culverts, overhead traction. Also infrastructure at the intermediate and terminal halts will have to be upgraded and the ability to turn around train sets quickly.

3. All of it will call for a massive change in the IR work culture.

[A Nandy]

200 kmph average is not going to happen at least till Railways is in a far better position. Let them run on average of 130 first. Whats the average now? 80?

[nandakumar]

200 kmph average is not going to happen at least till Railways is in a far better position. Let them run on average of 130 first. Whats the average now? 80?

A super fast express train runs at an average speed of 65 kmph.

[nandakumar]

I recall someone mentioning a long time ago that as per Railways safety protocol, an express train needs 20 kms of free passage on the track for it to proceed further. If the track isn't clear then the train is stopped. While it makes sense to synchronise train speeds rather than outright stoppage, it would require better signalling infrastructure. Investment should go into areas that offer the maximum capital productivity per rupee for the network as whole. This isn't really about HSR or lighter weight coaches or more powerful locomotives etc.

[Singha]

I dont think its 20km but much less given the duty cycle of our trunk routes and main junctions

Also in a thickly populated corridor trains need to have many stops. Trains exist to serve the country not only direct inter metro routes or the vociferous demands of nris

So quad tracks will be needed in some dense areas to let through trains with less stops.

All trains slow or fast will benefit from train20 aluminium construction up from icf overweight

[arshyam]

It's 3 signal blocks, I think, and 5 for Rajdhani class trains. Trains without this clearance won't necessarily stop, but will slow down for sure as the blocks behind a train will be red- yellow - double yellow - green. Add additional double yellow blocks depending on the speed clearance for the track.

Automatic signaling sections will permit trains to move forward even at red., albeit at a very low speed, and are generally more efficient and self regulating. But it's currently available only on parts of the GQ routes and suburban sections.

Overall, with more powerful locos with regen brakes (which are more powerful, I understand) and lighter LHB rakes, one would be surprised how quickly a train at max speed can come to a halt. Of course, given our levels of traffic, 20km is a luxury.

[nandakumar]

The safety protocol can be a real speed breaker on single lane sections. I once travelled to Guwahati on the Yeshwantpur Kamakhya Super fast express. The Train was late leaving Bongaigaon. The Section Bongaigaon-Rohingya- Kamakhya is a single line. Because our train was running late it was stopped at a wayside station to allow for upcoming train to cross over. When it did, it was time for Gauhati-Delhi Rajdhani to cross (Rajdhani anyway have a higher priority). The net result was our train was held back was eventually cleared after 40 minutes.

[Singha]

that MG line was built by the british for their own ends. the parallel BG line from bongaigaon onward to east was build only after mid 80s. its a matter of wonder why nothing has been done to double that BG line.

likewise the south bank line also languishes as 1 BG.

but things are finally moving forward https://www.telegraphindia.com/states/n ... id/1531423

the MG line could be removed and replaced by BG maybe.

[arshyam]

Singha saar, this is for you: http://indianrailways.gov.in/railwayboa ... 18-NFR.pdf

It's the NFR pink book for this financial year, and lists the allocations for the following (pages 3-4). It does not give the targeted completion dates, but gives a sense of the progress.

Basically, both the lines between Bongaigaon and GHY are being doubled. Also, the lines toward Siliguri/New Jalpaiguri seem to be patch doubled (I am guessing it's already patch doubled to an extent). The news article you shared shows the progress into upper Assam. Per the pink book, there is still some remaining MG branch lines along the north bank Rangiya-Murkongselek line (the main line was anyway re-opened with BG service in 2016).

Net net, looks like we will have double track up to Lumding in a few years, as well as electrified tracks up to GHY by end of next year. Also looks like electrification of GHY-LMG is also underway (Assam Tribune link).

[Supratik]

The optimum scenario for India is HSR for diamond quadrilateral and no more, semi-HSR for intercity and slow trains for more stops in quad tracks on trunk routes, RRTS is for suburban.

[nandakumar]

I am all for improving rail connectivity to the North East. My daughter lives there!

[Vadivel]

200 kmph average is not going to happen at least till Railways is in a far better position. Let them run on average of 130 first. Whats the average now? 80?

A super fast express train runs at an average speed of 65 kmph.

Super fast 65 kmph

[Kashi]

The optimum scenario for India is HSR for diamond quadrilateral and no more, semi-HSR for intercity and slow trains for more stops in quad tracks on trunk routes, RRTS is for suburban.

Not convinced about the viability of the pan-gangetic and East-Coast HSR routes. HSRs work best between dense urban clusters that see a lot of travel for business purposes. This is why Ahmedabad-Mumbai route was chosen. Extension to Pune and Delhi would make sense here. So would having a HSR link(s) between Hyderabad-Bangalore-Chennai and possibly Mysore.

The other routes do not really make much financial sense. Maybe Delhi-Agra.

[arshyam]

A super fast express train runs at an average speed of 65 kmph.

Super fast 65 kmph

Actually, even 65kmph is difficult to achieve, and only a handful of trains apart from Rajdhani/Shatabdi class trains manage this average. The threshold to designate a train as super fast is actually 55 kmph.

Many trains have actually slowed down when compared to the past. The TN express between Chennai and New Delhi, one of the handful above 65kmph average speed, was actually 4 hours faster in the seventies and eighties than it is today! This is despite having a fully doubled and electrified track today. Umpteen such examples abound. The Chennai-BLR Shatabdi takes the same time as the Brindavan express back then (5:00 hours).

Decades of blind introduction of new trains with nary a thought to infrastructure has led to this predicament. Even the current infra enhancement is not sufficient. We need sustained investment for the next 10-20 years to restore a semblance of balance between demand and infra. Quad tracks on the diamond quad routes are a must.

[Supratik]

The gangetic belt is densely populated. It will catch up in economic terms by the time HSR reaches there which is about 10-20 years that too only trunk route i.e. Amritsar/Delhi to Kolkata. Smaller routes for HSR are not viable anywhere specially now that you have semi-HSR.

[Singha]

gangetic belt should really have chair car semi HSR EMU/DMUs with AC on mass scale.

there is a dense mesh of railways in UP and Bihar/jharkhand for historical reasons
E-W is 1000km max, N-S is 500km max
lot of demand
so max journey in a semi HSR from say barauni bihar to meerut could be 8-10 hrs - easily doable in a AC chair car , avg case would be 4-6 hrs.
climate is either brutally hot or very cold in winter, lots of dust and humidity

this is a very profitable use case and should be pursued rather than just a few rajdhani/shatabdi trains....we need a janata model of Train18 minus some frills and "ruggedized" to withstand the initial "euphoria/uttejit nature" of the hoi-polloi clambering onto AC chair cars for the first few times. CCTV all over, with some darogas wielding coshes will be there to calm down the more rogue elements.

just replace the vast number of general bogie trains moving around with his gareeb rath chair car hauled by agile EMU

[Supratik]

Don't know if it is a good idea to have different HSRs for different routes.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 751781.cms

[Karthik S]

Important point

"The key results of the study is that the high speed railways on the route is not only feasible but also manageable."

Would be nice to Siemens Velaro between Bangalore and Chennai.

[jaysimha]

Ministry of Railways
Indian Railways Station Development Corporation (IRSDC) makes a swift progress in developing Surat Railway Station as Multi Model Transport Hub

IRSDC initiates series of steps to make this unique project more attractive & risk free to the developers
Posted On: 16 NOV 2018 4:19PM by PIB Delhi

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePag ... zc.twitter

[srin]

The optimum scenario for India is HSR for diamond quadrilateral and no more, semi-HSR for intercity and slow trains for more stops in quad tracks on trunk routes, RRTS is for suburban.

Not convinced about the viability of the pan-gangetic and East-Coast HSR routes. HSRs work best between dense urban clusters that see a lot of travel for business purposes. This is why Ahmedabad-Mumbai route was chosen. Extension to Pune and Delhi would make sense here. So would having a HSR link(s) between Hyderabad-Bangalore-Chennai and possibly Mysore.

The other routes do not really make much financial sense. Maybe Delhi-Agra.

Which brings the question (analogous to airlines) - should we go for hub-and-spoke model for HSR, ie high-speed between big cities and slow passenger trains from those hubs to other stations ?

[rajkumar]

Which brings the question (analogous to airlines) - should we go for hub-and-spoke model for HSR, ie high-speed between big cities and slow passenger trains from those hubs to other stations ?

This is the model we will end up with given the population density & capex requirements for HSR.

[Kashi]

That is how HSR works everywhere in the world. There are HSR trunk lines that connect key urban centres and interconnect with other modes of transport- rail and road at those stations. Occasionally, two or more HSR lines may branch off at one of the intermediate stations.

[Singha]

we can aspire for HSR for major inter-demand points upto around 500km - low hanging fruit like blr-chennai , kolkata-ranchi-patna , blr-hyderabad, delhi-lucknow, delhi-jaipur ... 3 hrs max running time ... needs a large mass of people willing to pay plane fare at both ends.

but rest of it can be semi HSR - even in japan, china and europe there seems to be plenty of such trains, including overnight sleeper trains - semi HSR on 80% of our tracks coupled with dedicated freight corridors will revolutionize travel scene in india. it will also result in pulling up railway manufacturing to world levels. Train18 and Train20 are our Tejas and AMCA - they have got to succeed and get built in HUGE numbers... the japani mighty N700S can be our rafale in limited nos for "strategic role/day1 A2AD/Spectra EW to confuse CRH attackers ops"

the 2300km beijing guangzhou type lines can be left for later after considering all issues - imo aviation will probably be cheaper than the cost of opex and capex of such ultra long HSR. nobody knows what is the profit/loss scenario of such long routes in china.

perhaps there are major rich cities on the route which attract passengers for shorter stretches? but the really rich places are on the coast

[hnair]

JayS, some from my wishlist:
- Cheap air connectivity to all urban agglomerations (UA) of a certain rate of growth. If there are no airports, in some areas, build some strips with a decent terminal near rail-heads for multi-modal connectivity.
- A track is only as fast as the speed at which the slowest train allows the other trains to run. So gradually reduce goods trains running on passenger routes. Will automatically increase the speeds. Separate goods and existing ultra long-distance expresses with minimal stops into a DFC-lite type of line, which will need only sidings for goods train to let the expresses through. A greenfield alignment away from population centers means less LA costs
- for local trips around the UAs (within 100 kms to all sides), have sub-urbans with auto-signaling over a third track (which is there in lots of places)
- For ICE use Train 18s for trips upto 500-1000kms

Cheen HSR hub-spoke is horrendously expensive to maintain. For a country that has ghost cities, it is no big deal, but not for us

[A Nandy]

Brake testing:


Singha,
The "uttejit" guys are all jumping around nearby

Anyone can estimate what the braking distance was in that shot.

[Karthik S]

Southern triangle, Chennai-Bang, Bang - Hyd and Hyd - Chennai must be done first. These 3 cities have plenty of pax who can afford HSR, also for official visits, there are companies that can arrange for HSR travel for its employees.