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Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Zynda » 29 Sep 2017 02:28

Why India should walk away from the GE diesel engine JV

Posting in full...

Let’s consider a case where a joint venture (JV) is formed between two companies, the customer and the supplier of an equipment. After the deal is signed the customer company sees a management change, bringing in a new manager who has worked on new technologies, who suggests that the company does not need the equipment that the JV intends to manufacture.

The manager feels better equipment will result in big savings for the company. The supplier naturally cries foul. Has the new manager worked in the interests of his company by opting for a new technology rather than using an equipment that could have resulted in losses, just in order to save the JV?

Of course he has.

This, however, is not being seen to be the case in the General Electric – Indian Railways JV. Indian Railways, under the then railway minister Suresh Prabhu, announced a JV with General Electric (GE), whereby the latter was expected to supply 1,000 diesel locomotives. GE, as part of the Rs 14,656 crore deal was to supply 100 locomotives from its factories in the US while 900 were expected to be manufactured in Bihar. These locomotives were to be supplied over a period of 10 years.

GE on its part has already shipped the first locomotive engine and is on track to complete its factory in Bihar. The US-based company says it has placed the order for USD 1 billion of machinery and already has 1,000 employees on its rolls.

This entire investment is in jeopardy after new Railways Minister Piyush Goyal, formerly the power minister, decided that Indian trains can be run entirely on cheap electricity and there is no need for diesel engines.

GE is perfectly right in saying that it is unfair on the part of the Indian government to suddenly change the rules of the game. The company has noted direly that the development would put future foreign investment at risk and undermine the government’s signature ‘Make in India’ initiative.

Some Indian commentators, too, have echoed GE’s concern.

Indian Railways faces a potential liability of Rs 1,300 crore if it exits from the JV, which is a small amount given the savings by shifting to electric vehicles. Goyal, however, says the electric locomotives would result in a saving of around Rs 8,000 to 10,000 crore a year in fuel costs. This is roughly 70 percent of the cost of buying all the diesel locomotives. Any cost accountant would call a decision to continue with the diesel engines foolish.

If Indian Railways had been a listed company, analysts would have pulled up the management if it had continued with a costly technology when efficient alternatives were available.

As for GE, the Railways Ministry has told the company that they can use the facility to produce electric locomotives or alternatively it can use the facility to export diesel engines. Prima facie it does look like GE has been given a raw deal, but the fact is that government is offering the company alternatives and not abruptly canceling the order.

As for the damage to the ‘Make in India’ image, GE should remember that in current times of subdued growth, there is no dearth of companies willing to participate in the Indian Railway growth story. The enthusiasm shown by Japan in participating in Bullet Trains and Spain’s Talgo to supply rakes to Indian Railways is an indication of how the world is viewing investments in India.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 29 Sep 2017 08:07

Indian Railways earns more than two-thirds of its revenue by electric traction by spending just one-third on electricity.

Currently, its diesel expense is about Rs 16,000 crore per year and it is expected that once electric traction takes over as desired, this figure would come down to Rs 5,000 crore a year, a clear saving of almost Rs 10,000 crore every year.


https://swarajyamag.com/infrastructure/ ... be-ignored

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Indranil » 29 Sep 2017 09:14

But, what is the cost of the electricity that will be used in its stead?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Philip » 29 Sep 2017 14:50

Terrible news.We now have the "Rush Hour" and "Crush Hour".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... -rush-hour
Stampede at Mumbai railway station kills at least 22
Cause of rush-hour crush at Elphinstone station is not yet known, as officials warn death toll is likely to rise
Mumbai stampede: commuters try to help people in fatal rush-hour crush – video

Agencies in Mumbai
Friday 29 September 2017
At least 22 people have been killed and more than 27 injured during a rush-hour stampede in a Mumbai railway station, according to local authorities.

The exact cause of the crush at Prabhadevi station, formerly known as Elphinstone, was not immediately known.
Junior Railway Minister Manoj Sinha said the stampede is believed to have started on a pedestrian bridge during the Friday morning commuter rush.

Tanaji Kamble, a spokesman for Mumbai’s disaster management division, said the death toll was likely to rise. He added that at least five people had been critically injured. Mumbai police have appealed for blood donations to help treat the injured.

“It was the peak-hour rush but the stampede has been brought under control,” Kamble told Agence France-Presse.

Mumbai Police ✔@MumbaiPolice
A -ve, B -ve and AB -ve blood is required in KEM hospital for those injured in #Elphinstone stampede . Please contact the blood bank at KEM
Twitter Ads info and privacy

TV footage showed commuters trying to resuscitate people and carrying wounded people downstairs to street level.

The railway system is a lifeline for the 20 million people of Mumbai. Accidents are common on the busy network.
More to follow...

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 29 Sep 2017 20:29

Image

Marya Shakil‏Verified account @maryashakil
Railway sources say that @sureshpprabhu sanctioned 11.86 cr for the construction of Foot over bridge. #mumbaistampade


From the thread, it seems a bridge exists but that exists some other place where offices are not there.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 30 Sep 2017 07:25

What is this boo boo about diesel loco? Vast tracts of lines will not be electrified in my lifetime. Let us tie diesel haters like mules and make them pull train?

False flag ops are on bullet train ke liye paisa hai not for bridge!!
Bullet train is financed by vendor loan. Let the congis arrange for similar loan from foreign contacts for station improvements!

I travelled by jaipur to delhi shatabdi last night.
Jaipur platforms and waiting rooms incl toilets were totally clean, railwire google wifi was working, onboard food by meals on wheels caterer was very avg quality. Delhi ndls platform3 got a quick look seemed okayish...escalators are much needed in big stations from all platforms...even mighty ndls with 16 platforms only has 2 i think on ajmeri gate and paharganj side not from platforms

Udaipur stn was also very clean

Train toilets continue to be sub par and poor barring the new designs they show off

The design and fitment of shatabdi chair cars is crude and heavy footed. E1 exec seats huge size and legroom but crude metalwork

Issue is how many decades will it take to replace all current rolling ng stock? Clearly big pvt sectors players must be put to work on rolling stock front to replace all old stock in time bound manner

Second class coaches on all trains continue to be crowded and of horrible std

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 30 Sep 2017 09:12

electrification map of IR. shows we have miles and miles to go

http://www.core.indianrailways.gov.in/w ... Emap2017(1).pdf

the WDP4/WDG4 will need atleast 1 more generation of new diesel locos ... they are rugged but getting a bit long in tooth.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 30 Sep 2017 09:28

Last year's article, don't know how far implementation has come.

Government mulls electrification of 35,000 km rail line in 3 years


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Indian diesel locos are the most energy inefficient, a guy told me these locos have generators and that they operate at 100% all the time from the moment you turn on the loco till it's shutdown.
Therefore, if the train is in a stationary position, the loco is wasting 98% of the fuel, if the train runs at half the max speed, the loco is wasting 50% of the fuel. Considering that we are huge importers of petroleum products, it makes sense to do away with diesel locos. But I am not sure it's the same with GE diesel locos.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Mort Walker » 30 Sep 2017 09:30

Singha wrote:What is this boo boo about diesel loco? Vast tracts of lines will not be electrified in my lifetime. Let us tie diesel haters like mules and make them pull train?


What is forgotten is that in the event of war we could lose electrification and the grid which supplies the railway lines. It is an easy and juicy target which shall prevent the quick movement of men and materials to the war front. Electric line sabotage, terrorist strike on the railway grid, or even a planned air strike on the line could have very serious consequences. At least half the locomotives must remain diesel. Climate change is not India's problem - that problem belongs to the west.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Indranil » 30 Sep 2017 09:47

Karthik S wrote:Therefore, if the train is in a stationary position, the loco is wasting 98% of the fuel, if the train runs at half the max speed, the loco is wasting 50% of the fuel.

This is not true. Does you car require the same amount of fuel while idling and while it is being red-lined?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 30 Sep 2017 10:27

Indranil wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Therefore, if the train is in a stationary position, the loco is wasting 98% of the fuel, if the train runs at half the max speed, the loco is wasting 50% of the fuel.

This is not true. Does you car require the same amount of fuel while idling and while it is being red-lined?


Car engine doesn't function as a generator, but apparently diesel locos do.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 30 Sep 2017 10:32

Good point Mort

Diesel direct drive of old with piston rods as seen in museums or current diesel electric all will burn less fuel at idle. The generator will work as needed for output to drive the motor for speed. Engine drives generator which feeds motors

In electric traction the grid is still being powered when train is at rest or no trains on that section. So elec too is lossy

Elec grid uses coal so less fuel import that is true
It can also accelerate faster and more smooth power delivery and light as just motors onboard no engine and radiator

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 30 Sep 2017 10:39

Mort Walker wrote:
Singha wrote:What is this boo boo about diesel loco? Vast tracts of lines will not be electrified in my lifetime. Let us tie diesel haters like mules and make them pull train?


What is forgotten is that in the event of war we could lose electrification and the grid which supplies the railway lines. It is an easy and juicy target which shall prevent the quick movement of men and materials to the war front. Electric line sabotage, terrorist strike on the railway grid, or even a planned air strike on the line could have very serious consequences. At least half the locomotives must remain diesel. Climate change is not India's problem - that problem belongs to the west.


We can have diesel locos as backup, it need not be the primary loco. BTW railway lines can be targeted directly if the intent is to stop the supply lines, so the type of loco doesn't matter much in that scenario.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby chetak » 30 Sep 2017 10:46

Singha wrote:electrification map of IR. shows we have miles and miles to go

http://www.core.indianrailways.gov.in/w ... Emap2017(1).pdf

the WDP4/WDG4 will need atleast 1 more generation of new diesel locos ... they are rugged but getting a bit long in tooth.


saar, many here have drunk deeply on the "electrification" coolaid.

You are absolutely right, we have miles and miles to go.

there is more to this GE contract issue than meets the eye. Its all black lentil territory onlee.

the so called electrification will not be completed even in goyal's lifetime.

many ministries are quickly moving into the realm of power point progress where reports as demanded by the PMO are being jazzed up and sold as reality.

The "prabhu in railway ministry fiasco" has yet to be explained clearly. If the baboo(n)s were at fault, their heads should have rolled first.

Prabhu, " resigning after accident " reeks of hypocrisy and not responsibility and its also a very convenient method to disguise marching orders.

Prabhu's strength lies in conceptualization and planning, execution is beyond him as it needs a very different skill set and also a different mind set.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby chetak » 30 Sep 2017 10:57

Karthik S wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
What is forgotten is that in the event of war we could lose electrification and the grid which supplies the railway lines. It is an easy and juicy target which shall prevent the quick movement of men and materials to the war front. Electric line sabotage, terrorist strike on the railway grid, or even a planned air strike on the line could have very serious consequences. At least half the locomotives must remain diesel. Climate change is not India's problem - that problem belongs to the west.


We can have diesel locos as backup, it need not be the primary loco. BTW railway lines can be targeted directly if the intent is to stop the supply lines, so the type of loco doesn't matter much in that scenario.


so, the IR will have to maintain about 5000 diesel locos as just war reserve??

railway lines don't matter as they can practically be replaced over night, its the bridges and signalling control infrastructure that matter.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 30 Sep 2017 11:07

bridges and signals will be guarded in times of need and indeed are permanently guarded in the north east for example.

but electric lines means any miscreant who can take down a couple of poles with a country made bomb can launch swarm harassment mode attacks. its not hard to disrupt for 2 weeks with a cadre based jihadi/naxal org.

instead of 500 vulnerable points, the entire network is open season

also our missile and possibly all army trains need to be entirely diesel for obvious reasons

our army trains are a insult to our soldiers, they should be made entire 2/3AC and provided all creature comforts.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 30 Sep 2017 11:20

Indeed, but IR need not use diesel engines predominantly, we can estimate and have those many diesel locos as backup. We can also use Dual Mode locos near border areas.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 30 Sep 2017 11:22

i would imagine biggest tasks are
- repair and replacement of some 10,000 old bridges and culverts to support higher speed
- 3rd and 4th tracking of dense sections
- replacing short bypass lines with longer bypass lines to permit 'python' type mile long goods trains to halt safely for pax trains to overtake - this is found to be efficient
- involve the private sector in speeding up replacement of old ICF coaches with new coaches and fittings - bring it up to 90s std system wide than 50s std where it still languishes
- where possible build 2-decker general bogies to somewhat alleviate the huge overcrowding - long term solution is 4 tracks and more trains this is just band aid on a leg fracture
- large lifts and escalators on all platforms of all major stations for a start and on platform1 of minor stations ....
- education programs for people not litter and use bathrooms properly - strong anti odour systems and fittings sourced from aerospace industry are needed.
- crack down on food caterers who get away by pushing sub std food even on prestigious trains. improve pkging and hygiene in the onboard pantries which are cough cough not great now - move to more drier foods and away from sloppy curries

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Indranil » 30 Sep 2017 11:25

Karthik S wrote:
Indranil wrote:This is not true. Does you car require the same amount of fuel while idling and while it is being red-lined?


Car engine doesn't function as a generator, but apparently diesel locos do.

So, they continuously generate electricity which they don't use and don't store. Then where does this energy go?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 30 Sep 2017 11:27

New coaches can be CC, instead of sleeper. If the quadrilateral and diagonals (Delhi, Mumbai, Kol, Chennai) tracks are improved, attaining semi HSR will not be difficult. 10hr journey in semi HSR chair car will not be tiresome and can cover most Indian cities.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 30 Sep 2017 11:29

the diesel engine at low power (in station halt) generates rpm on the generator to drive the hotel load on the train - fans, lights. when moving it will make a lot more power via the generator to drive the traction motors. non rajdhani/shatabdi trains have individual generators in the 1/2/3AC coaches...the raj/sha trains have two generator-cum-guardvan cars at either end to drive the hotel load of entire train.

so while the diesel engine is certainly on at stations and signals its efforts are not wasted.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 30 Sep 2017 11:54

khan style intimidation. 5 WDG4 locos ganged together haul a goods train through dudhsagar falls in goa


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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 30 Sep 2017 11:54

Good write up on differences between diesel vs electric loco, where to use what.

https://24coaches.com/locomotive-working-india/

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 30 Sep 2017 11:57

Indranil wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
Car engine doesn't function as a generator, but apparently diesel locos do.

So, they continuously generate electricity which they don't use and don't store. Then where does this energy go?


Don't remember exactly but I recall him saying that breaks are applied always, that's why wear and tear is higher on those trains. Forgot to ask him if such locos have APUs that run during idling and not the main generator.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Indranil » 30 Sep 2017 12:11

I don't think your friend was right. If the brakes are applied and the wheels are not moving, then you have no dissipation of energy through the brakes (as heat). Assuming that your brakes can hold you inplace when the engine is generating full power, you will blow up the engine pretty soon. That is where the energy goes.

P.S. Just googled it. Idling fuel consumption of diesel engines is roughly 2 liters (0.5 gallons) per cylinder per hour. 16 cylinders will give you 32 liters per hour. If you take a SFC of 0.21/kW/hr, then a 4000 HP engine (3000kW) will be consuming 630 ltrs per hour.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 30 Sep 2017 12:18

Indranil wrote:I don't think your friend was right. If the brakes are applied and the wheels are not moving, then you have no dissipation of energy through the brakes (as heat). Assuming that your brakes can hold you inplace when the engine is generating full power, you will blow up the engine pretty soon. That is where the energy goes.


Yeah may be, I thought that steam release sound we hear from under the coaches time to time during our journeys is for this purpose.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby manjgu » 30 Sep 2017 12:46

WOuld the japanese ever give loan on 1L crore for infra renewal at 0.1% or is it only for bullet train??

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 30 Sep 2017 12:50

Highly unlikely, they gave the loan on those terms because the Chinese were beating them in HSR exports across the world. They may not be willing similar loans to misc infra projects.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Prasad » 30 Sep 2017 13:16

You have regen on electric locos. Also you only burn what you use+waste. You don't burn at idle what you burn at 60kph. Basic energy conservation man.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arvin » 30 Sep 2017 15:06

Looks like govt will follow the contract in letter and spirit for fear of losing reputation. This would be our 2nd diesel loco plant after LDW varanasi. If electrification plan is as ambitious as reported by piyush goyal then what rail babus will do after procurement of 1000 locos remains to be seen. Resell them to african nations or our neighbour hood?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Zynda » 30 Sep 2017 17:19

I think DLW in Varansai is already producing electric locos (currently WAP-7 IIRC). The plant is said to be active up to 10 years beyond which it may be used to manf locomotives for export or may be converted to produce electric locomotive.

It is amusing to see how GE is kinda advertising their India specific product at various stages of production (videos of roll-out at their Erie, PA plant...videos of testing the same, photos of loading up the first loco on to a ship and unloading photos etc.) while Alsthom has been treating similar 800 odd electric loco order from IR just like any other order. I think Alstom released a couple of photos and beyond it...zilch.

In fact, around a couple of weeks back, the first empty shell of the Prima-2 loco reached Indian shores. It was covered under tarp and there was no fanfare at all. GE had probably realized that it needed to work harder compared to Alsthom which means that IR had started hinting on massive electrification as the future roadmap even before Mr. Goyal made the announcement.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Austin » 30 Sep 2017 17:31

Unseen footage of stampede at Elphinstone railway station


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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Supratik » 30 Sep 2017 21:40

Safety measures crucial meeting post incident in Mumbai.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=171286

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Mort Walker » 30 Sep 2017 22:18

chetak wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
We can have diesel locos as backup, it need not be the primary loco. BTW railway lines can be targeted directly if the intent is to stop the supply lines, so the type of loco doesn't matter much in that scenario.


so, the IR will have to maintain about 5000 diesel locos as just war reserve??

railway lines don't matter as they can practically be replaced over night, its the bridges and signalling control infrastructure that matter.


As Singha said, power lines are subject to easy damage by miscreants. Outages decided by Pak or China can make the difference in a given sector. Further, if there is EMP it would be a problem not just on the locos, but the transmission infrastructure too.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby saip » 01 Oct 2017 00:03

I do not see why we can not electrify ALL railway route in 5 years (I am not saying we should). Out of 60k route km 30k is already done. Another 10k is work in progress. Looks like we do 3k per year. If we step up to 5k we will be done in 5 or so. Without going into the merits, all ai am saying is it can be done.

Link

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 01 Oct 2017 10:15

Will not allow bullet train, says MNS chief Raj Thackeray

Mr. Thackeray warned that “not a single brick will be allowed to be placed for the bullet train in Mumbai” until the infrastructure of local railways was made better.

Ramping up his rhetoric against Prime Minister Narendra Modi, Maharashtra Navnirman Sena (MNS) chief Raj Thackeray has warned of consequences if the bullet train is allowed to roll into Mumbai.

A day after the Elphinstone Road suburban train station foot overbridge stampede on Friday, which claimed 23 lives, a belligerent Thackeray said, “Not even a foundation stone will be allowed for this project in Mumbai. If Modi wants, then he can run the train project in Gujarat. If the Centre tries and forces the project on us, a reaction of equal force will come,” said Thackeray on Saturday.

Ratcheting up anti-migrant sentiments, the MNC chief said it was the influx of people from other States that has led to a population explosion in Mumbai. This in turn is leading to immense pressure on the infrastructure of the financial capital and resulted in such disasters, he said in a reference to the recent incident. He then sounded a warning to hawkers to clear up stations and not conduct business around crowded terminals. “We are warning them in advance, and if they don’t listen, we are there to respond in our style,” he said.

The MNC chief also announced a march on October 5 to protest against the “creaking infrastructure and crumbling” rail facilities at the railway office in Churchgate. “Last time, when we brought out a morcha, the police commissioner was shunted. Let us see what happens this time. There are always reactions to such morchas,” he said.

The Shiv Sena’s mouthpiece, Saamna, also hit out hard at the bullet train project. The city should not even think of a bullet train until its existing infrastructure is upgraded, the party said in an editorial.


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/o ... 776694.ece

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arvin » 01 Oct 2017 10:39

Bullet train has become the favourite whipping boy in this tragedy.I Blame this on rail babus for not educating the public via advts, fb, twitter the funding pattern for this project. Laziness on this front might cost precious votes and reputation.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2017 10:58

arvin wrote:Bullet train has become the favourite whipping boy in this tragedy.I Blame this on rail babus for not educating the public via advts, fb, twitter the funding pattern for this project. Laziness on this front might cost precious votes and reputation.


ignorant guys are under the impression that the GoI is spending their hard earned money for the bullet train but they simply fail to realize that it is a japanese take it or leave it, as is where is deal that will never be repeated and most importantly it came to us only because of Modi's goodwill.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Austin » 01 Oct 2017 11:18

You cant really says Japan would not have supported infra of Railways and the funding take or leave was just for bullet trains we did not ask for Railway infra.

There is no harm in bullet train but it is only atm the priorities are wrong , The incident that happened in Mumbai could have taken place at any station or any time of the day , it is a common thing to see railways passenger get crushed while travelling or just having to cope if with crowd that is 4-5 times more than the infra we have. It is just that it happened now and there is no gurantee it wont happen in the near future.....Its a dogs life travelling in Mumbai trains except for non-peak hours were it is barely OK

Most of our railways infra are broken and Mumbai Suburban earns most for IR and it gets what it gets imaging for places where these dont even earn enough , So wrong priorities at wrong time in back drop of so many accidents and so many lives lost and still fixing what is broken is not a priority ......It takes a railways minister to do an audit when 25 people are dead when that should have been done much earlier...that is by an large the state of affairs we are in.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vina » 01 Oct 2017 11:48

Indranil wrote:This is not true. Does you car require the same amount of fuel while idling and while it is being red-lined?

OT. But in a traditional car, your fuel consumption is higher at idle and at redline, than at economical cruise speed. That is because the fuel air mixture is richer at idle.


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