Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

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Karthik S
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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 03 May 2018 20:23

I don't see two locos on Rajdhanis.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Vasu » 04 May 2018 14:45

Meanwhile, back at Rail Bhavan.....

Indian Railways gets ready for Accrual Accounting

The 165-year-old Indian Railways will usher in its most profound accounting reform since Independence as it prepares its financial statements for the current fiscal under the accrual-based accounting system, the process widely followed by the corporate sector.

Railways has been preparing its financial statements through the dated cash-based accounting system. It will continue to prepare cash-based accounts as that is a constitutional requirement. But the shift to the accrual system gives a more accurate financial picture of an organisation. Accrual-based accounting is being rolled in the railways in association with the Institute of Chartered Accountants of India (ICAI).

“As a part of accounting reforms, accrual-based financial statements will be rolled out by March, 2019. Around 130 chartered accounts placed in the field by ICAI are assisting the roll-out,” a senior railway ministry official said.

The new accounting process will allow the railways to report segmentwise revenue, helping more accurately monitor the profitability of different lines of business and services.

“Through accrual-based accounting system, we will be able to analyse step-wise costing of every asset created and services delivered. We will also be able to arrive at micro details such as train, section and rail route costing and profitability numbers,” the railway ministry official said.


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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby sohamn » 04 May 2018 15:39

Karthik S wrote:I don't see two locos on Rajdhanis.



it is there, in a pull pull configuration

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 04 May 2018 16:33

Only on august kranti rajdhani so far
It helps in accelerating faster from stations

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 04 May 2018 17:22

I don't see the need of it now when "Train 18" is just around the corner, with higher max speed and better acceleration. But, even with Train 18, 176 kmph max speed is little underwhelming, should have been 200 kmph at the minimum.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 04 May 2018 19:28

top speeds are like PMPO ratings of speakers. what matters is the RMS rating and average speed (given the number of stops that are needed)

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby A_Gupta » 05 May 2018 16:17

https://hnfp.in/bullet-train-trouble/
Japan’s Bullet Train Troubles with India

Another article, same theme:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/20 ... u2vU8jaufc

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arvin » 06 May 2018 09:42

Train 18 appears to be our attempt to catch up with the present high speed passenger train transport with tech like aluminium body and bogies having own motors.

While reading on shinkansen propulsion came across a term called VVVF (Variable voltage variable frequency) drive. The bogie motors are driven by this drive. Had heard about VFD (variable frequency drive) used to drive 3 phase elevator motors where the frequency is varied to control speed. But looks like here voltage is varied by using another motor as a generator??. Probably this arrangement is compact enough to fit under a bogie.
Unlike current electric engines pulling Rajdhani where I think a dedicated unit contains heavy duty thyristors to control phase angle of far bigger electric motors.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 06 May 2018 12:22

yesterday one of our blr BRF members in chennai Shatabdi was held up @ sholingur just west of arakonnam by the fag end of a 20 day maintenance window that somehow went haywire and led to standstill from 10am to around 4pm when people lost patience, rented shared taxis and drove the remaining 100km into the city by road.
today many trains are cancelled on this stretch by prior notice, but yesterday things went off the plan.

being with a young child he suffered a lot.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 06 May 2018 12:37

Not unheard of, know of a fairly recent case when a NJ Transit train from MSG to Trenton stopped for 3 hours.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby hanumadu » 06 May 2018 20:47

arvin wrote:Train 18 appears to be our attempt to catch up with the present high speed passenger train transport with tech like aluminium body and bogies having own motors.


Small nitpick. Train 18 is the LHB coaches modified to EMUs. Train 20 is the aluminium body EMUs.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 06 May 2018 22:06

Singha wrote:yesterday one of our blr BRF members in chennai Shatabdi was held up @ sholingur just west of arakonnam by the fag end of a 20 day maintenance window that somehow went haywire and led to standstill from 10am to around 4pm when people lost patience, rented shared taxis and drove the remaining 100km into the city by road.
today many trains are cancelled on this stretch by prior notice, but yesterday things went off the plan.

being with a young child he suffered a lot.


There is a lot of work going on at Arrakonam station AJJ(Arakkonam Joint Junction). There is a very sharp curve towards Katpadi at the end of the platforms at Arrakonam. This forces all trains that do not stop at Arrakonam like Bangalore and Mysore Shatabdi to pass AJJ at 30kmph. They have straightened this curve and now after the new tracks are connected non-stopping trains will be able to pass Arakkonam at 105kmph and save 10-15 mins, time spent earlier in slowing and accelarating again. Several platforms have also been lengthened to accommodate longer 24-26 rake bogies. Before it was 18-22.
Also AJJ-Chennai has been quadrupled and extra platforms have been built to handle EMU suburban traffic between Chennai and AJJ. It is the last stop on the Chennai suburban network.

Lastly INS Rajali is at Arrakonam which has P-8 Orions and TU-142's. The railways wanted to electrify the Villupuram-Chinglepet-Arrakonam line, but the Navy objected as the railway line passes along the boundary wall of the Naval air station and Navy said "no can do" with the catenary wires posing a hazard. So there were many negotiations between Railways and Navy to build a bypass line from Thakolam before the Air station that swings out to Katpadi and then joins the Chennai-Katpadi line a little beyond Arrakonam station towards Katpadi. Navy was supposed to foot part of the bill. This line is now coming close to completion after years of languishing and one can see earthworks etc in advanced stage. So this block both traffic and power block will also be used to make it easier to connect the Thakolam line to Arrakonam station. I am not sure what the geometry will be as a line branches out from Arrakonam towards Renigunta and Mumbai. So there may be diamond crossing etc to allow traffic from the Villupuram line to move to the Mumbai/Renigunta line. So expect line blocks and power blocks again. Anyhow this is major stuff at an important junction.

As far as Sholinghur goes, its a Divya Desam with an important temple of Lord Narasimha on a high hill commanding the town. It is also a place where Eyre Coote fought a battle with Hyder Ali and Madras regiment was awarded the battle honor Sholinghur, since removed after Independence as being repugnant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sholinghur

The Narasimha temple is worth a visit.


http://epaper.dinamalar.com/PUBLICATIONS/DM/DINAMALAR/2018/04/29/ArticleHtmls/29042018004031.shtml?Mode=1

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby nandakumar » 07 May 2018 08:12

Why is Arakkonam called a 'Joint Junction? I mean, stations where more than one line converges is a 'junction'. But a 'joint junction'? Just curious.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Aditya_V » 07 May 2018 11:16

vsunder wrote:
Singha wrote:yesterday one of our blr BRF members in chennai Shatabdi was held up @ sholingur just west of arakonnam by the fag end of a 20 day maintenance window that somehow went haywire and led to standstill from 10am to around 4pm when people lost patience, rented shared taxis and drove the remaining 100km into the city by road.
today many trains are cancelled on this stretch by prior notice, but yesterday things went off the plan.

being with a young child he suffered a lot.


There is a lot of work going on at Arrakonam station AJJ(Arakkonam Joint Junction). There is a very sharp curve towards Katpadi at the end of the platforms at Arrakonam. This forces all trains that do not stop at Arrakonam like Bangalore and Mysore Shatabdi to pass AJJ at 30kmph. They have straightened this curve and now after the new tracks are connected non-stopping trains will be able to pass Arakkonam at 105kmph and save 10-15 mins, time spent earlier in slowing and accelarating again. Several platforms have also been lengthened to accommodate longer 24-26 rake bogies. Before it was 18-22.
Also AJJ-Chennai has been quadrupled and extra platforms have been built to handle EMU suburban traffic between Chennai and AJJ. It is the last stop on the Chennai suburban network.

Lastly INS Rajali is at Arrakonam which has P-8 Orions and TU-142's. The railways wanted to electrify the Villupuram-Chinglepet-Arrakonam line, but the Navy objected as the railway line passes along the boundary wall of the Naval air station and Navy said "no can do" with the catenary wires posing a hazard. So there were many negotiations between Railways and Navy to build a bypass line from Thakolam before the Air station that swings out to Katpadi and then joins the Chennai-Katpadi line a little beyond Arrakonam station towards Katpadi. Navy was supposed to foot part of the bill. This line is now coming close to completion after years of languishing and one can see earthworks etc in advanced stage. So this block both traffic and power block will also be used to make it easier to connect the Thakolam line to Arrakonam station. I am not sure what the geometry will be as a line branches out from Arrakonam towards Renigunta and Mumbai. So there may be diamond crossing etc to allow traffic from the Villupuram line to move to the Mumbai/Renigunta line. So expect line blocks and power blocks again. Anyhow this is major stuff at an important junction.

As far as Sholinghur goes, its a Divya Desam with an important temple of Lord Narasimha on a high hill commanding the town. It is also a place where Eyre Coote fought a battle with Hyder Ali and Madras regiment was awarded the battle honor Sholinghur, since removed after Independence as being repugnant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sholinghur

The Narasimha temple is worth a visit.


http://epaper.dinamalar.com/PUBLICATIONS/DM/DINAMALAR/2018/04/29/ArticleHtmls/29042018004031.shtml?Mode=1


OT- But just made a private visit to Sholighur temple yesterday morning and drove past the Thakolam Town/Village

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby kvraghav » 07 May 2018 13:16

Yesterday, i had booked the train from bangalore to mysore. The train was Hampi express from hubli. The train got delayed by 2 hours and i took a bus and went to mysore. Never faced such delays till now but seems like railways going down the drain.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 07 May 2018 15:29

we have never been able to reach a situation where tickets are available 1 week before departure on any train between any two stations.

that is why long buses are so popular in south and west.

we need 2X the current train count to meet todays demand.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Sachin » 07 May 2018 15:52

nandakumar wrote:Why is Arakkonam called a 'Joint Junction? I mean, stations where more than one line converges is a 'junction'. But a 'joint junction'? Just curious.

Before independence, the railway lines were built and operated by many companies. Arakkonam Jn, was a "jointly" developed by two such companies and used an interchange for the passengers using the services of both the companies. I can get the exact details from an old book, but out of my mind the two companies which were involved were South India Railway (SIR) and Madras & South Maratha Railway (MSM).

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 07 May 2018 19:51

^^ It would have been Madras Railway and SIR (SIR for the line to Conjeevaram and Chinglepat - old spellings :)). IIRC, MSMR came into being much later when SMR (which served interior KA mostly) was merged with the Madras railway to become the Madras and Southern Mahratta Railway (MSMR).

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 07 May 2018 20:29

Ashokk wrote:First for passenger trains: Special Rajdhani to have engines at both ends
MUMBAI: For the first time on Indian Railways, a passenger train will have an engine at the front and the rear to save travel time. Western Railway will hold trials with this technique on the special Rajdhani that plies from Bandra Terminus to Delhi's Hazrat Nizamuddin. This technique has been successfully tried out with goods trains. The Special Rajdhani already saves 2 hours of travel time as compared to the current Rajdhani.
A decision to carry out the trial with "push and pull" technique was taken at a railway committee meeting convened by Central Railway general manager D K Sharma.
WR's chief public relations officer Raviner Bhakar said, "Though the engine will be attached to the rear, its operations will be carried by the loco pilot in the front locomotive. We need technical upgrade for perfect synchronisation between the locomotives for speed and braking."
Bhakar said that the saving in travel time will be known only after carrying out trials but railway sources said they expect travel time to reduce by 30-60 minutes.
As of now locomotives are attached at the rear end at the ghat section where the gradient is steep.
Bhakar said that the engines at the rear and front will ensure faster acceleration and deceleration. "Also, braking will be powerful and hence swift. The train will be able to run at a speed of 160 kmph wherever permitted."
Another advantage of an engine at the rear will ensure that train can be pulled out of the station quickly. "So, a platform will not be occupied for longer time," said Bhakar.

Not sure how they plan to power the rear loco - if it uses it's own pantograph, the consist's speed will be restricted to 105 or so. I don't recall any news on relaxing that restriction, which is due to the design of the current overhead wires (I had mentioned this here earlier). The other option is a long thick cable carrying power to the rear loco running under 18 passenger coaches, which might require clearance from CRS.

Twin locos permanently coupled with a single operative pantograph are the way to go, till the Train-18 and -20 are made operational. That's the trend we are seeing with the WAG-12 Alstom locos, and the WAGC-3 converted electrics - both classes are permanently coupled twins. In this case, 10000 horses at the front will bring in its own quality, but maybe WR is concerned about wear and tear to the tracks from two locos at the front? I'd think using twin WAP-5s should be okay - only twin WAP-7s could be a problem given their weight. vsunder saar, any thoughts?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 07 May 2018 21:05

WAG-12 is 12,000 horses up front, not 10K. With that much motive power, it's one of the top 5 most powerful locomotives in the world, and almost 2x as much as the WAG-9 it's replacing.
Image
Most of the entries at the top of the most powerful locos on the list are all permanently coupled multiple headers. The most powerful one - Novocherkassk 4S5K, is a quadruple header with 17500HP:

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby nandakumar » 07 May 2018 21:31

Sachin wrote:
nandakumar wrote:Why is Arakkonam called a 'Joint Junction? I mean, stations where more than one line converges is a 'junction'. But a 'joint junction'? Just curious.

Before independence, the railway lines were built and operated by many companies. Arakkonam Jn, was a "jointly" developed by two such companies and used an interchange for the passengers using the services of both the companies. I can get the exact details from an old book, but out of my mind the two companies which were involved were South India Railway (SIR) and Madras & South Maratha Railway (MSM).

Thanks Sachin and arshyam. I guess that explains it!

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 07 May 2018 21:55

Suraj saar, I was referring to the twin WAP-5 hauling the Rajdhani, hence 10000 horses.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 07 May 2018 22:15

Oh right, whoops sorry :)

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 07 May 2018 22:30

arshyam wrote:^^ It would have been Madras Railway and SIR (SIR for the line to Conjeevaram and Chinglepat - old spellings :)). IIRC, MSMR came into being much later when SMR (which served interior KA mostly) was merged with the Madras railway to become the Madras and Southern Mahratta Railway (MSMR).


Yes indeed that is correct. The South Mahratta operated the line to Castle Rock and Goa and to Bezwada(Vijayawada) on the other side, real Mahratta country. While the Madras Railway the line to Erode where it met GSIR, The Great Southern Indian Railway. The Arrakonam to Chinglepet line was also GSIR. Madras Railway amalgamated with the South Mahratta in 1903 or so and became in Sachin's words South Mahratta and Madras Railway and a further amalgamation with the GSIR made it the SIR eventually, the forerunner to SWR, SCR and SR. The parangis, firangis, Angrez, whatever for them everything was Great, like the GIPR, The Great Indian Peninsular Railway, forerunner to Central Railway. It is amusing to see all the old names still remain, QLN is Kollam, but Quilon as QLN is still there, CNB, Cawnpore Barracks. The old station of CNB still remains. Cannot believe one would play cricket and soccer in the grounds opposite this station in late 50's and 60's and watch n-number of soccer matches in the local soccer league esp. the two top teams IAF(called Chakeri after AF station Chakeri) and Loco, which was the Loco maintenance staff team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtL13SKzarQ



I remember the discussion that Arshyam had started. One point I recall in the discussion, gosh it was a long time ago: was the oscillation of the wires due to the leading pantograph. There possibly has to be some stability and oscillations in the wire have to die down before a second pantograph makes contact. That is the reason I thought maybe naive that power is drawn from one pantograph. Or else there will be arcing. To prevent oscillations, either speeds have to be low, a cable has to run the length of the train, if not done properly, sheesh kebab(sorry for the macabre sense of humour), or better damping equipment on the OHE to kill the oscillations and waves on the wire. Bankers do though work at the back, but along uphill ghats speeds are slower.
Thull and Bhor ghat electrics are doing everything with bankers at the back.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 07 May 2018 22:36

Saw quite a few videos wherein TGV trains run with just the rear pantograph engaged.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Indranil » 07 May 2018 22:43

The EMUs use multiple pantographs, don’t they?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 07 May 2018 22:55



Watch first 5 mins, you'll see.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 07 May 2018 23:18

Indranil wrote:The EMUs use multiple pantographs, don’t they?


But speeds are also slower, stop and go, stop and go all the way to Trivellore(that is the old name of Tiruvallur). The issue is here running trains at 160kmph with a loco at the front and back. Maybe having two pantographs at high speeds with current OHE equipment is not an issue.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vina » 08 May 2018 23:53

I do think that the Indian Railways needs to be broken up into multiple operating companies and decentralised. The current railways is such an unresponsive and inefficient beast driven by random political imperatives and being centrally command-controlled from New Delhi no longer serves the growth and development needs of huge swathes of India. It has been reduced to another pitiful dole and patronage vehicle, that every politician hopes to "capture" to serve his/her political objectives, however harebrained and deleterious overall it might be.

The growth and infrastructure requirements between the more developed and fast growing parts of India and the underdevelopment and resistant to development parts of India means that a centralised railways with a single pan india fare structure and quality of service and politically driven investment no longer meets the requirements.

The west and the south (okay also parts around Delhi & Punjab & Haryana) can sustain higher prices and will be willing to pay more for better quality of service and indeed will be able to make the case for huge investments in both passenger side (think HSRs) and freight. Currently there is no way a centralised railway that has huge cross subsidy (both between freight and passenger) and also across regions can make those investments and provide those services at the price point which the less developed parts of the country can sustain. This is clearly a timing issue. Those investments can be made later in the less developed parts, but the investments first have to go into the more developed and fast growing parts. The railways should be broken up into multiple regional companies that operate independently . Companies that can make their own investments, raise their own capital and respond to the needs of the regions they operate in.

Oh.. Please put suburban services in Mumbai, Madras etc, along with the Metro systems being built into separate local companies. It is simply criminal to get the Railways to pay for it. Also get the moochers (I know folks who pay Rs 5 to commute from KR Puram to Cant.. every day for work) out onto local systems and away from the railways. It is simply preposterous, to pay Rs 5 for that, when Rs 5 can't get you beyond 3 stops or so in a local BMTC bus !

This Laloo/Nitish/Didi model (okay goes back to Kamalapathi Tripathi.. ) as a dole / patronage vehicle and hence political capture has simply run it to the ground. There is no way to reform the system as it is . Any potential reform is simply useless. The next govt coming in will simply go back to the Laloo/Nitish/Didi model and break its back and make it beyond repair.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Ashokk » 09 May 2018 23:44

India's longest road-rail bridge to be inaugurated by PM Modi this year
BOGIBEEL (ASSAM): In a major boost to defence logistics along the border with China, India's longest road and railway bridge connecting Dibrugarh in Assam to Pasighat in Arunachal Pradesh is likely to be inaugurated later this year by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

While all the civil work would be completed by July this year, two more months would be needed to finish the electrical and signalling work on the 4.94 km bridge, said Mahender Singh, chief engineer, construction, Bogibeel project.


The Bogibeel bridge is likely to be inaugurated by Prime Minister Narendra Modi by the end of this year, officials said.

The bridge, which is the second longest in Asia, has three lane roads on top and double line rail below.

The bridge is 32 metres above the water level of the Brahamaputra and is fashioned on a bridge that links Sweden and Denmark.

For the government, the bridge, officials said is both a symbol of development in the northeast as well as part of a strategic move solving logistical issues for the armed forces stationed at the China border to get supplies from Tezpur.

Bogibeel is part of infrastructure projects planned by India to improve logistics along the border in Arunachal Pradesh. This includes the construction of a trans-Arunachal highway on the north bank of the Brahmaputra, and new road and rail links over the mighty river and its major tributaries such as the Dibang, Lohit, Subansiri and Kameng.

India and China share a nearly 4,000 km border, with almost 75 per cent in Arunachal Pradesh.

As of now, the rail and road link to Arunachal is through three Assam bridges -- Jogighopa in Bongaigaon district, Saraighat near Guwahati, and Kolia-Bhomora between Sonitpur and Nagaon.

This means that a cargo from Dibrugarh in the north-eastern corner of Assam takes over a 600 km detour merely to cross the Brahmaputra.

The other alternative is crossing by ferry, but it is not suitable for heavy cargo and due to monsoons for six months between May-October, ferry services often remain disrupted.

"Now, to go from Dibrugarh to Arunachal Pradesh by train, one has to go via Guwahati with more than 500 km detour. With this bridge, the journey will be less than 100 km," said Singh.

Though approved in 1996, construction of the bridge was initiated by the first BJP-led NDA government in 2002.

The Congress-led UPA government had declared it a national project in 2007.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby nandakumar » 10 May 2018 10:12

vina wrote:I do think that the Indian Railways needs to be broken up into multiple operating companies and decentralised. The current railways is such an unresponsive and inefficient beast driven by random political imperatives and being centrally command-controlled from New Delhi no longer serves the growth and development needs of huge swathes of India. It has been reduced to another pitiful dole and patronage vehicle, that every politician hopes to "capture" to serve his/her political objectives, however harebrained and deleterious overall it might be.

The growth and infrastructure requirements between the more developed and fast growing parts of India and the underdevelopment and resistant to development parts of India means that a centralised railways with a single pan india fare structure and quality of service and politically driven investment no longer meets the requirements.

The west and the south (okay also parts around Delhi & Punjab & Haryana) can sustain higher prices and will be willing to pay more for better quality of service and indeed will be able to make the case for huge investments in both passenger side (think HSRs) and freight. Currently there is no way a centralised railway that has huge cross subsidy (both between freight and passenger) and also across regions can make those investments and provide those services at the price point which the less developed parts of the country can sustain. This is clearly a timing issue. Those investments can be made later in the less developed parts, but the investments first have to go into the more developed and fast growing parts. The railways should be broken up into multiple regional companies that operate independently . Companies that can make their own investments, raise their own capital and respond to the needs of the regions they operate in.

Oh.. Please put suburban services in Mumbai, Madras etc, along with the Metro systems being built into separate local companies. It is simply criminal to get the Railways to pay for it. Also get the moochers (I know folks who pay Rs 5 to commute from KR Puram to Cant.. every day for work) out onto local systems and away from the railways. It is simply preposterous, to pay Rs 5 for that, when Rs 5 can't get you beyond 3 stops or so in a local BMTC bus !

This Laloo/Nitish/Didi model (okay goes back to Kamalapathi Tripathi.. ) as a dole / patronage vehicle and hence political capture has simply run it to the ground. There is no way to reform the system as it is . Any potential reform is simply useless. The next govt coming in will simply go back to the Laloo/Nitish/Didi model and break its back and make it beyond repair.

I think integration of one section of suburban train services in Chennai (Beach-Velachery MRTS) is already happening. PwC is doing the valuation. It is only a question of time now as both Chennai Metro and Southern Railway have agreed. That should pave the way for Tambaram-Beach section also to be handed over to the Chennai Metro. Once Mumbai Metro is fully operationalised the integration of Central and Western Railways suburban network with the former too, is a possibility. Basically the commuters would want freedom to travel across the entire suburban/metro networks on a single ticket.
It is desirable that in the long run Railways confines itself to passenger movement to leads of 700 kms or so, which can be largely accomplished by overnight journeys, plus freight. The 1000 kms and beyond for passengers in AC 3 Tier and above classes would travel by air. The resultant freeing up of line capacity would help speed up freight movement.

Suraj
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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 11 May 2018 02:17

A_Gupta wrote:https://hnfp.in/bullet-train-trouble/
Japan’s Bullet Train Troubles with India

Another article, same theme:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/20 ... u2vU8jaufc

I don't really agree with either article. They argue that the viaduct approach is costlier than earthen embankments as originally planned. The Chinese experience shows that this is not true:
World Bank: Cost of High Speed Rail in China One Third Lower than in Other Countries
Laying track on viaducts is often preferred in China to minimize resettlement and the use of fertile land as well as to reduce environmental impacts. The estimated cost of viaducts in China ranges from RMB 57 to 73 m/km for a double track line. Such costs are kept low through standardization of the design and manufacturing process for casting and laying bridge beams on viaducts.

Special bridges that cross large navigable rivers or that need to accommodate special topographic features like mountains have much higher cost per kilometer than that of a regular viaduct. Usually such bridges represent a small percentage of the total number of bridges. Projects having larger proportion of special bridges tend to have a high unit cost.

Railway stations play a dual role as transport hubs and urban centers. Small stations (3,000 sq m station building) cost about RMB 40 million and account for 1.0 to 1.5 percent of the total project cost, while mega stations may cost up to RMB 13 billion and are frequently built as independent projects.

The paper notes that construction cost of high speed rail in China tends to be lower than in other countries. China’s high speed rail with a maximum speed of 350 km/h has a typical infrastructure unit cost of about US$ 17-21m per km, with a high ratio of viaducts and tunnels, as compared with US$25-39 m per km in Europe and as high as US$ 56m per km currently estimated in California.

For a 508km line assuming a higher cost of $25M/km (Rs.167 cr/km) that's Rs.83,000 cr in total infrastructure costs, out of the total estimated cost of Rs.1.1 lakh crore, the rest being ~Rs.25000cr for equipment, probably a comfortable sum to cover it. My Rs.167cr / km number here is very conservative - former Rail Minister Suresh Prabhu estimated Rs.100-140 cr/km, which translates to Rs.50,000-71,000 cr total infrastructure cost.

There are press reports quoting people saying that the elevated corridor option will be "more expensive", but I disagree with that - anything involving 500kms of land acquisition drastically underestimates the time value of money if the option that needs less a) land b) fencing c) diversions , is somehow 'estimated' as MORE expensive. Cost overruns due to land acquisition delays are the decisive long pole in almost all major projects, so to claim that the option that involves less of it is more expensive, is not credible. We have civil engineering corps capable of building the viaducts out fast, as seen in the Delhi Metro and elsewhere.

A quick perusal of the world's longest bridges shows that most of them are Chinese HSR viaducts, the longest being the 164km long (!!) Danyang-Kunshan Bridge:
List of longest bridges

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Indranil » 11 May 2018 04:15

There is nobody better than the Chinese in building bridges right now. In speed, cost or quantity. It is a gap which we have to close up if we want to catch up with them in HSR.

Also, viaducts are better for India (accident wise).

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 11 May 2018 04:59

Building them isn't a technologically complex undertaking either. It's fairly bread and butter civil engineering to build with a series of standardized viaduct slipformed sections and piers made at multiple locations, install the piers, hoist and load performed sections upon piers by bridge building machines, like they do with the Delhi Metro. Experienced entities can get this done rapidly with the logistics in place, particularly over long flatter sections.

And yes viaducts are much better for India. No need to fence off all kinds of fauna. No need to build pathways through embankments, land acquisition, earthworks etc.Assuming costs higher than Suresh Prabhus estimated unit cost of work, but below mine, it works out to about Rs.15,000 cr or $2.3 billion per 100km of HSR in total infrastructure cost (viaduct construction, track laying, signaling installation), with only equipment (the trains themselves) extra.

Delhi-Mumbai (1400km) total infrastructure cost is Rs.2.1 lakh crore ($32 billion) at the above cost unit.
Delhi Chennai (2200km) is Rs.3.3 lakh crore ($50 billion)
Chennai Bangalore (340km) is Rs.52,000 crore ($8 billion)

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby darshhan » 12 May 2018 14:57

Suraj wrote:Building them isn't a technologically complex undertaking either. It's fairly bread and butter civil engineering to build with a series of standardized viaduct slipformed sections and piers made at multiple locations, install the piers, hoist and load performed sections upon piers by bridge building machines, like they do with the Delhi Metro. Experienced entities can get this done rapidly with the logistics in place, particularly over long flatter sections.

And yes viaducts are much better for India. No need to fence off all kinds of fauna. No need to build pathways through embankments, land acquisition, earthworks etc.Assuming costs higher than Suresh Prabhus estimated unit cost of work, but below mine, it works out to about Rs.15,000 cr or $2.3 billion per 100km of HSR in total infrastructure cost (viaduct construction, track laying, signaling installation), with only equipment (the trains themselves) extra.

Delhi-Mumbai (1400km) total infrastructure cost is Rs.2.1 lakh crore ($32 billion) at the above cost unit.
Delhi Chennai (2200km) is Rs.3.3 lakh crore ($50 billion)
Chennai Bangalore (340km) is Rs.52,000 crore ($8 billion)


On spot. The only question is whether adequate funding is available or not. Otherwise Indian companies are more than capable of constructing viaduct based elevated HSR corridors(Civil part). They have gained enough experience through metro and other projects.

Pillars will have to be cast insitu. Most of the rest can be precast components.

HSR elevated corridors would actually be easier for them wrt metro projects since most of the route will be cross country and not urban. Right of way, hindrance, traffic management and coordination among multiple agencies would be somewhat simpler.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 12 May 2018 15:26

Indranil wrote:There is nobody better than the Chinese in building bridges right now. In speed, cost or quantity. It is a gap which we have to close up if we want to catch up with them in HSR.

Also, viaducts are better for India (accident wise).


I'd prefer any Japanese civil engineering ANY day over Chinese, particularly for quality and reliability. For ex, Japanese have the world's longest suspension bridge, the Akashi Kaikyo bridge, wonder if Suraj san got to cross that bridge any time.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 12 May 2018 21:36

No I have never traveled along Akashi Kaikyo bridge . It is in Kobe (the city wrecked in the 1995 quake); I have only been to Kyoto and Osaka not far away though . Another interesting bridge nearby is the Seto Ohashi , an almost 15km road plus rail bridge across the sea .

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Indranil » 12 May 2018 23:28

The speed and scale at which the Chinese increased their infrastructure in the last two decades is mind boggling. I know that building bridges and roads are technologies which are more than 3 millenia old, but still nobody has poured concrete at the rate the Chinese did in the past 2 two decades. They have mechanized the process greatly, and ofcourse their govt. doesn't have to care about votes and the environment. I say this after living and visiting multiple countries over the last decade and half. In terms of infra development, I would place India above Japan for the last decade (in fact above all other countries but China).

And I don't think give them credit where they deserve it is dhoti shiber. In fact, we have to truly compete, we can't nay-say their advantage. We have to overcome them, and that is why I want BJP for the next ten years.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby VinodTK » 13 May 2018 00:29

Eye on China: Army and Railways cranking up synergy for swifter mobilisation & operational logistics
NEW DELHI: The Army is stepping-up its synergy in operational logistics with the Indian Railways to ensure it can swiftly mobilise as well as switch forces between the western front with Pakistan and the eastern one with China much faster than what is possible now.

Towards this end, the railways is already building infrastructure for military requirements at different places in the country. This includes construction of concrete ramps for loading of tanks, howitzers and infantry combat vehicles on special trains in areas like Bhalukpong in Arunachal Pradesh, Dimapur in Nagaland, Silapathar, Missamari and Murkongselek in Assam, with an eye firmly on China.

“Concurrently, there is an increased focus on significantly enhancing the speed at which the special military trains run…trial runs are in progress. This will help in faster mobilisation,” said an officer.
One of the harsh lessons learnt during the 10-month long forward troop deployment along the western front under Operation Parakram, launched after Parliament terror attack in December 2001, was that slow mobilisation would not do any longer.

India had taken over a month to mobilise its forces for Operation Parakram, which had given enough time to the US-led international community to intervene as well as Pakistan to shore up its defences.

Since then, the Army has adopted its “Pro-Active Conventional War Strategy”, colloquially called the “Cold Start” doctrine, to practice swift mobilization for multiple offensives into enemy territory.

The Army, incidentally, uses 750-800 trains to re-locate its battalions as well as move tanks, artillery, ammunition and other loads for exercises every year. “The Army pays railways around Rs 2,000 core per year for this. For infrastructure development, the railways in some places is also using its own budget,” said another officer.

The Army is also “tagging into” the railways’ online monitoring system to keep track of the 5,000 train wagons it owns. “Earlier, it was a manual and tedious process. There is also a proposal for railway service probationers to visit forward areas and military stations to get a better idea about the huge logistics involved in military mobilization,” he added.

There is, however, little progress on the long-pending military project for construction of 14 “strategic” rail lines on the fronts with Pakistan and China due to funding issues. The Army had even identified four lines (three in Northeast, one in J&K) as the topmost priority because it was told that all 14 could not be taken up together, as was earlier reported by TOI.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 13 May 2018 06:03

Indranil wrote:The speed and scale at which the Chinese increased their infrastructure in the last two decades is mind boggling.

They simply demonstrate that a lot of progress is achieved not by incredible feats of discovery and innovashun, but simply doing an efficient job of very mundane things many times over. Something we too have been doing, but not on their scale. Delhi Metro is a good example. Until 2002 the place had no metro system. End of this year, it will have a longer network than two legendary systems - New York and London - that each predate it by 120-160 years. Within 20 years of its existence, Phase IV will probably make it the third largest system on the planet behind Beijing/Shanghai.

I don't think dhoti shivers are an issue. To me, their efforts just show that ultimately progress on the same scale is achieved simply by a democratic government that simply puts its head down and focuses on getting things done, whether it is finally giving every home a bank account, every village electricity, or building long viaducts for high speed lines quickly . A lot of these things may be 'so what, they just got the last bit done', but all that could have gotten done a long time ago, and no one did. Ideas mean nothing without the 99% effort part; "Digital India" is basically "lay a whole lot of cables and optic fibers through a lot of places".

So yes if they focus on efficiently getting the infrastructure work done, the HSR line will prove its viability easily, making more lines quickly feasible . I do hope they start on Chennai Bangalore ASAP. That's the perfect HSR route - currently too long for a day train, too short for a night train, and lots of traffic, as well as onward connectivity potential, whether to Mangalore/Mysore or to Hyderabad on an ultimate Delhi-Chennai 'sword of the republic' route.

Delhi-Chennai is at the upper end of HSR feasibility, but I hope it gets built. ~9hrs end to end with just 2-3 stops is a perfect overnight HSR . It would match Beijing-Guangzhou as the world's longest HSR route. Delhi-Mumbai is comparable in distance to Beijing-Shanghai.


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