Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

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Singha
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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 31 Oct 2018 05:19

Delhi to mum and delhi to bhopal are suitable for testing of 160kmph

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Kashi » 31 Oct 2018 09:14

Bangalore-Chennai-Mysore would be a good shout as well.

There's definitely demand on that sector.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby JTull » 31 Oct 2018 14:29

Train-18 has a travel experience comparable to aircraft: ICF Chief

Train 18, India’s first engine-less train that was launched by the Integral Coach Factory (ICF) on Tuesday is expected to cut down travel time by at least 10% on shorter routes. Spearheading its manufacturing Sudhanshu Mani, general manager of ICF, Indian Railways, in an interview with TOI, talks about the train set will not transform travel experience, but also coach manufacturing in the country.

Q: What is unique about the Train-18 experience?
Indians will soon get to travel in a train which has facilities on a par with flights. The plush interiors and compact toilets are world-class with touch-free fittings and vacuum system in aircraft. And all of this was built completely in India within 18 months; to build a similar train set, Train-20, foreign companies like Stradler, Siemens and Bombardier take three to four years.

Q: What was the inspiration for the Train-18 idea?
For any developed rail network train sets is the natural step forward, as they cut down on travel time, are easy to turn-around at stations and have hassle-free maintenance. In India, this idea was debated for 20 years and became a victim of departmentalism in Indian Railways. But the more it is delayed, the more India will be left behind. I was determined to implement it and I realized that ICF was the right place to manufacture it as the staff and officers have the talent and enthusiasm and so went ahead with it.

Q: What were the challenges in executing this idea?
There was a major doubt if this could be done without importing technology. Also, it had its share of naysayers in the Railway Board. A large part of the work was given to Indian companies which were challenged to finish the work at a record time and at competitive prices. Work which usually takes a year, was completed in four months. The railway minister and railway board chairman supported this initiative.

Q: What upgradation can be expected for future rakes?
The exteriors and interiors are not yet of European standard. I’m not fully satisfied. The exterior should be as smooth as an automobile. These will be upgraded in future models.

Q: What was the most difficult design element?
Seats. We wanted airline-like seats but realized that there are 500 aircraft in India, but none of the seats are made in India. So we had to import them from Spain. But we have ensured that two Indian companies, one in Chennai and another in Gurgaon, will learn and make similar seats and cater to the domestic airline industry. The challenge with the braking system, made by an Indian company, was to reduce the cost. They will be reducing the price for the upcoming third to the sixth rake.

Q: ICF has staff strength of 10,400, but a lot of work is outsourced to private firms. Is the government employee unable to deliver as well as the private agency?
There is no such shortcomings in the work of the government employee. Our plan is to not have a large workforce, but a competent and committed one. The staff strength is being reduced while production is going up. As far as outsourcing is concerned, it is equipment supply, installation and commissioning. We don’t want to get into a dispute between the supplier and ICF. ICF is also doing a lot of work in-house, for instance the Train-18 shell is made entirely by the staff.


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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby nam » 31 Oct 2018 15:19

Now I can see why Train-18 was done on time and came out as a good product.

The chief seems to be a guy with the right attitude, not a typical babu. And wants better products, not satisfied with the first. This is good.

If there is the right guy leading an initiative, even a GoI entity can do wonders. Lions leading sheeps..

Hope he continues to lead ICF and takes us where we should be.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Bart S » 31 Oct 2018 15:31

nam wrote:Now I can see why Train-18 was done on time and came out as a good product.

The chief seems to be a guy with the right attitude, not a typical babu. And wants better products, not satisfied with the first. This is good.

If there is the right guy leading an initiative, even a GoI entity can do wonders. Lions leading sheeps..

Hope he continues to lead ICF and takes us where we should be.


If you go to ICF in Chennai, it looks like a defence establishment from the perspective of neatness, organization, cleanliness and clear labelling/directions. There was always good potential there, good to see them making something off it. I am all for hiving them off and giving them more freedom and independence from the Indian Railways bureaucracy.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Bart S » 31 Oct 2018 15:32

Kashi wrote:Bangalore-Chennai-Mysore would be a good shout as well.

There's definitely demand on that sector.


Will need dedicated tracks as there is too much traffic in that sector on the existing lines, and too many densely populated areas and crossings that need to be bypassed altogether.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 31 Oct 2018 22:25

Train-18 is a pathbreaking piece of work, ignoring the media's persistent lack of ability to clearly explain what the thing is - an inter-city express EMU. A lot of things about it make it hard to believe IR did that, but it's a testament to ICF's project management here. They took this up from concept to roll out in a mere 18 months for Rs.100 crore. Youtube videos online demonstrate the clean workshop and large panels CAD/CAM machined and welded together into the coaches. The interior with the swiveling chairs reminds me of the Shinkansen chairs of the same kind:

All in all, very well done, led by a guy who's not yet satisfied and wants to make it even better. I can't find anything wrong with what they've done - It looks no different from the RENFE Alvia services I've traveled on. Clearly ICF have the in house capability to quickly build designs on par with mid-tier express EMUs in the developed world. Need not tick all the bullet list items on first attempt, but they have all the basics demonstrably covered.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Gus » 01 Nov 2018 12:31

I am impressed ICF chennai did this. Back in late 90s I spent a few weeks there and it was a a typical govt entity with all the horrors that you can imagine.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Gus » 01 Nov 2018 12:37

Kashi wrote:Bangalore-Chennai-Mysore would be a good shout as well.

There's definitely demand on that sector.


Chennai to salem-erode-cbe onwards to KL would be a good one.

I can already auto to metro and metro to park station and walk over to central to take train, and from destination take another bus to native place.

But the hassle of four legs for the train ride is currently not worth it for the cost involved and time involved.

if Time is reduced and comfort is increased, then I would switch over to train instead of the sleeper bus option that I am currently taking.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 01 Nov 2018 12:46

Gus wrote:Chennai to salem-erode-cbe onwards to KL would be a good one.
I can already auto to metro and metro to park station and walk over to central to take train, and from destination take another bus to native place.


There's a Chennai Central metro station directly in front of the Central station.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Gus » 01 Nov 2018 12:51

isn't that the park town station / park station..

https://chennaimetrorail.org/line-map/

there's still some walking to central involved. carrying bags and taking stairs etc..not sure how functional escalators/elevators are, if any.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Prasad » 01 Nov 2018 14:55

They should've made the Park-Central walking a lot easier than going up and crossing the road that needs to be done currently. Central Metro station is undeground and you don't need to cross the road above at all but just walk into central right now. But if you use MRTS, you'll have to climb up.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Gagan » 01 Nov 2018 18:11

ICF chennai also built the diesel trainsets that run in the Kashmir valley. Very similar in concept - trainsets, but with diesel engines, aerodynamic front and back ends.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 01 Nov 2018 18:31

Park-Central is much better of late. Exit Park* suburban station, down the escalator, cross under the road (this is right next to the metro station) and up the escalator in front of Moore market complex. The metro station itself will have a closer entrance to Central soon.

* Park is different from the Park Town station, which is on the MRTS line.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Indranil » 02 Nov 2018 01:23

It will be great if some knowedgeable here could put together a compendium of the new kinds of EMU/DMU rakes being built by ICF/BEML. The advent of the metro coaches have brought in a step function in the design of our coaches.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 03 Nov 2018 07:44

we are catching up. onlee diffs between delhi metro and singapore metro that I can see are

- trains are unmanned (delhi trialled it dont know if they are going ahead). its thrill to stand in the front window and whiz through the tunnel!
- better maps at each station clearly explaining the up and down routes
- train interiors almost same - delhi handholds from overhead rail are sturdier and singapore trains have a bank of lights that show which side doors will open.
- all stations even in the outskirts have full or half height sliding glass protective doors that open once train stops. this I feel is a must have for crowded indian metros, only airport line has it in delhi
- the famous singapore tight integration with bus terminals and taxi stands - some are attached to malls - even the far out boon lay stn in jurong is attached to a considerably good mall.

considering the pax load in delhi, we are doing a world class job there.

now about blr ... cough cough

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby saip » 03 Nov 2018 08:52

When did India start installing x-ray scanners at railway stations? How many have them? Yesterday I took a train from Hyderabad and my bag was scnned. I got a shock when the lady cop told me I am not supposed to have liquor in my baggage (the duty free liquor I picked up at the airport). She was nice though and let me off with a warning and did not confiscate my liquor. On search I found out Railways always had that rule, only they did not have means to enforce it. Now with scanners they have. In China they had scanners at the HSR entry gates and in the airports they had scanners behind every check in counter. My suitcase was diverted to security room and I had to open it and show my 14 oz shave cream can before I got my boarding pass.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby JayS » 03 Nov 2018 10:47

^^ A city in north MH has had a scanner like 8-10yrs ago. I cant remember when exactly it was installed, perhaps after 26/11, perhaps even before. But it was there for quite a few years ago. By no means a tight securiry system by any meams as it was only on one of the entry gates of basically an open station where anyone could enter from anywhere. And the enthu of scanning went down slowly to a level where the guards wouldnt bother anymore.

PS: found a news item on this one.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 563329.cms

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Supratik » 03 Nov 2018 20:15

The new lines in Delhi metro have platform screen doors. The X-ray scan in some railway stations is still a security joke. It is going to change with the new private railway station coming up at Hazratganj, Bhopal as the area is then going to be sealed.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 03 Nov 2018 22:05

All underground metro stations in Chennai have platform screen doors. Safer for sure, but personally not a fan. I like to see the train arriving...

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby A Nandy » 03 Nov 2018 22:11

Japanese maker of train in deadly Taiwan crash finds design flaw

Naoki Sato, an official at Nippon Sharyo, told Reuters on Friday that the company’s investigation into the crash had discovered a flaw in the blueprint for wiring the connection of the train’s automatic train protection (ATP) safety system to the control station.

There is no problem with the safety system itself, which is designed to automatically apply the brakes when the train exceeds the speed limit, the official said.

Nippon Sharyo’s Sato said the flawed blueprint was used in 19 train sets built for Taiwan, including the one that crashed. He said any decision on whether to fix the wiring was up to the Taiwan rail authority, which owns the trains.

The train’s driver, You Zhen-zhong, told a court last month he switched off the speed-control system to boost the train’s power when it slowed down on an earlier stretch of the journey, according to a Taiwan court spokesman, citing his bail hearing.

The public defender for You said he knew he had to turn the protection system back on but failed to do so because he was busy communicating with other coordinators about a separate problem with the train’s speed.



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-taiw ... SKCN1N702T

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby A Nandy » 03 Nov 2018 22:15

Moar T18!! :-o


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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby hanumadu » 03 Nov 2018 23:45

Image

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 04 Nov 2018 00:11

A Nandy wrote:Moar T18!! :-o


Beautiful looking intercity express EMU. Kudos once again to ICF .

Regarding platform screen doors, even Tokyo Metro or JR lines like Yamanote doesn't have it everywhere. And that's despite the well known stories of people jumping in front of trains there.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Indranil » 04 Nov 2018 01:10

My only gripe with train 18 is with the doors. I don’t know why they did not for an uniform colouring pattern.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 04 Nov 2018 09:55

If the color of the door is an example of what upsets people, then I'd say ICF has done a spectacular job here :)

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby hnair » 04 Nov 2018 11:46

:lol: I think this is like that "Band-master uniform" (copyright shiv) paint scheme of the first Tejas to take to air. This is still a prototype

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Indranil » 05 Nov 2018 11:15

Suraj wrote:If the color of the door is an example of what upsets people, then I'd say ICF has done a spectacular job here :)

:rotfl:

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 05 Nov 2018 11:38

the problem now is not one of technology development but funding and mass scale production.

I am not sure how many ICF coaches are in the system and how many LHB....if we could even replace all the ICF which is 60 years old tech with LHB which is 30 years old tech, imagine the savings wrt fuel and pax comfort .... ?

but I fear our funding to attempt quick mass scale changes is way short. a shatabdi here and a train18 there makes no real impact on the average user experience which is pretty poor if we see @ general bogie and 2nd class sleeper non-AC ....

making all coaches AC may control overcrowding ,,,,,

same problem in stations => to make the top 500 look like AAI std airports is a vast undertaking.


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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 05 Nov 2018 12:39

No chance. These coaches have a codal life of 30 years, and ICF was churning them out till 2017 while they ramped up LHB production. So, unless there is some mass re-export program of refurbished ICF coaches to OBOR like munnas, fat chance of replacing all of the
40,000 coaches within 5 years. I am not even going into the production capacities of ICF, RCF and MCF at this point. Then there's the CAG...

At best, as these coaches come in for POH, they'll be retrofitted with central-buffer couplers (which are safer in the event of derailment) and bio-toilets, and pressed back into service. Of course, over time they'll be relegated to slower express and passenger trains.

You are right in that LHB itself is an aging technology, that's why T-18 and T-20 are being pursued. Apart from true blue HSR, of course. A combination of these coach types will help IR stay current with latest tech.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 05 Nov 2018 12:53

LHB production rate is far too low to replace everything in the suggested timeline. Latest data I can find:
MCF Raebareli: 576 coaches/year in 2016-17, targeting 1000/year
ICF Perambur: 1100 LHB coaches in 2017-18, up from 400 in 2016-17
RCF Kapurthala: Unknown
Total: 2385 coaches in 2017-18 .
Under a decade will require all three of them producing ~2500/year each.

Meanwhile: India's high-speed dream to see a new testing track in Rajasthan
Late October, when India’s first engine-less and the country’s fastest train — Train 18 —was rolled out for trial run, the question of whether the Indian tracks are safe for such high-speed trial runs was raised by many.

Now, the Indian Railways plans to test induction of new technology not on busy railway tracks but a dedicated testing track. The national transporter is set to come up with an elliptical 40-km track between Jaipur and Phulera at an investment of around Rs 4 billion. With this, India will enter a league of countries including the United States, Germany, China and Australia that have dedicated tracks for train trials.


“This will be an all-weather track and will be like a laboratory for the railways. Using this, it will be possible to undertake numerous test and trials of new rolling stocks and its components, new railway track technologies, technologies related to railway bridges and geotechnical field,” said an official in know of the development.

In the first phase, a 25-km track will be constructed — a straight track of about 20 km and rest will be a curved track of radius 1750 m and 875 m. Another official said the test track will come up near a salt-siding in the region and will have all the specifications of a normal track including bridges, curves and even speed restrictions at certain areas. At present, the railways is conducting tests of all its locomotives, wagons and equipment on commercial railway tracks.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 05 Nov 2018 22:49

Good news, high probability of designing tilting train. Hope to see something like a pendolino.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 07 Nov 2018 00:00

1st aerodynamic wap5 handed over to NR. will haul all LHB trains these new locos


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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby A Nandy » 07 Nov 2018 14:33

After T18 we can finally say - aerodynamic? Pfffft !! :D

Why dont the WAP5 guys take some inspiration from the T18 guys and machine the front :wink:

I finally located the sliding footsteps thanks to:
https://youtu.be/YueCvu4K55A?t=66

But only the top footstep is sliding out, what about the height difference :|

On a roll amidst Diwali crackers, ominous background music to boot:

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Karthik S » 07 Nov 2018 15:02

I gotta say door looks out of place. It should also be white to go with body colour.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Vips » 07 Nov 2018 19:01

Suraj wrote:LHB production rate is far too low to replace everything in the suggested timeline. Latest data I can find:
MCF Raebareli: 576 coaches/year in 2016-17, targeting 1000/year
ICF Perambur: 1100 LHB coaches in 2017-18, up from 400 in 2016-17
RCF Kapurthala: Unknown


ICF alone is targeting to produce 3,000 coaches a year from next year. It produced 2,500 coaches this year

ICF has increased production exponentially to 368 coaches in first four months of 2018-19, to produce 1000 coaches this year and is investing 480 Crores to ramp production to 2000 coaches in the next two years

RCF is the problem unit with production figures coming down from 1700 coaches a decade ago to 1200 coaches this year

RCF chief public relations officer Sunil Kapoor said employees’ unions were not allowing them outsource work and this was impacting efficiency —financially and physically. “ICF and MCF are liberally outsourcing and they are increasing their production. Unions at these units are not blocking initiatives, and they are focused on increasing the production of coaches. We are asking unions at RCF to cooperate, while assuring to maintain incentives for employees. Our own manpower is decreasing due to retirements. Unions wanted fresh recruitments, but Railway Board in not allowing that. We are facing tough competition from other coach factories and are in desperate need to increase production, so that our cost per coach also becomes competitive,” he said.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Shameek » 07 Nov 2018 20:44

Inside view of India's fastest Locomotive manufactured by Chittaranjan Locomotive Works.


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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Supratik » 08 Nov 2018 00:40

That looks like jugaad engineering. Cut off the front of the engine, put a protruded nose and call it aerodynamic. Even the nose looks from Janata Social Engineering school and already dented. Shoddy work.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Shameek » 08 Nov 2018 09:13

^^ Have to admit the interior is not anything to write home about either. :( Especially if this is a new locomotive. One of the comments asked why there isn't a toilet in the locomotive. Anyone have ideas?


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