Electric vehicle and power storage

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1097
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 13 Oct 2016 02:06

I am opening this thread to track and discuss the development in Electric Vehicle (EV) and Battery technology development.

I am under the impression that we are just about to enter the threshold where Battery technology becomes so cheap that it replaces oil based fuels. I have tried Electric cars several times now. Forget about the Reva with low auto type performance. Have Driven Tesla. It goes from 0-100 Km per hours in 4 seconds, that is faster then a Ferrari. Can do up to 500 Km and cost about Rs 2 per km in milage (1 unit of electricity will take you about 3-4 km).

Benefits of EV
1 Superior driving. It has no gears and is very easy to drive.
2 No noise
3 No local pollution
4 Will reduce the import bill of oil
5 Very very cheap to run. (but the current investment is very high)

Here is a wiki article giving old info.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle
Last edited by Rishirishi on 13 Oct 2016 02:24, edited 1 time in total.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1097
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 13 Oct 2016 02:23

Cost.
The greatest deciding factor is the cost of battery. The prices have fallen from 3-400 USD per KV in 2011 to USD 145 per KV reported by GM for the Volt. people are speculation that the cost per KV might drop to 100 at Teslas news car battery factory and there are people who are speculation that it may actually fall to 50 dollars by the end of 2020.


Nissan leaf (the size of Indica) will run about 4-6KM per KV (greatest deciding factor will be the use of AC).
Now a battery pack of 60 KVh would be sufficient to take the car approx 250-360 KM.

at 400USD per kvh such a battery pack would be 15,5 lacks (this was the case in 2012)
At 250 USD per Kvh such a battery would be Rs 10 lacks (this is the going rate in 2015)
At 145 USD per kvh such a battery would be 5,5 lacs (2017)
At 100 USd per KVh such a battery would be 4 lacs (expected by 2018)
At 50 USD per Kvh such a battery pack would be 2 lacks (expected by 2020)

But most city commuters rarely drive more then 150 Km per day. Such a car would require only 25Kvh battery. This battery would cost about 2,5 lacks with the current prices.


saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3625
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby saip » 13 Oct 2016 03:20

Right now it is not that cheap to run the electric car if the gas prices stay at $2.50 or so per US Gallon. I have Chevrolet Volt. It has both battery (about 53 miles on it) and a small gasoline engine with 8 gallons or so capacity. My Volt gives me about 3 miles per unit. Unit cost for me is on average 24c or 8 cents per mile. The same car if run on gas alone gave me 40+ miles per gallon. I did run it on gas alone once to just for the heck of it. Gas is 6c per mile. My utility offers a night time price for energy and if I charge only at night then the price is 11c. But they jack up the prices during the rest of the day to almost 44c and my analysis did not show significant savings if I opt for that may be half a cent. As I have this car only for three months I am still analyzing my usage. Right now if the gas prices go up to $3.20 I break even and if they go up to $4 (I am in CA and they did go up that high some time back) I save.
It is clean I admit and I can use HOV lane while driving which is a benefit.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12864
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Suraj » 13 Oct 2016 04:44

24c per KWh ? Really ? That seems quite high.

saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3625
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby saip » 13 Oct 2016 06:06

I am on tiered Plan. The rates start at 18c for 414 kw, then 24c for the next 414 and then jump to 39.9 c. I have taken the avg for the past one bill. I still do not have enough data after I got the vehicle as I was away in India for a month. This month I am trying to do the whatif for full months usage.

saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3625
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby saip » 13 Oct 2016 06:10

PGE does the analysis for you using their different rate plans. So far I am on the best rate according to them. Its is called Tiered Smart rate. During summer I get 2c discount but they call smart days (basically when the temp hits 100). Then they really sock it to you by charging a surcharge of 60c during 2pm to 7 pm. They have these smart days between 9 and 15 every summer.

Lilo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4069
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 09:08

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Lilo » 13 Oct 2016 08:22

Nissan leaf (the size of Indica) will run about 4-6KM per KV (greatest deciding factor will be the use of AC).
Now a battery pack of 60 KVh would be sufficient to take the car approx 250-360 KM.
The highlighted should read as Kwh (kilo watt hour == one unit electricity in common parlance)

Lilo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4069
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 09:08

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Lilo » 13 Oct 2016 08:40

Ok my questions are

1) At 50 usd per Kwh in 2020 the battery(60 Kwh) will be 2 lakhs


1)How many charge cycles or how many years the Li ion battery is expected to last with out reaching a noticeably degraded performance (i.e degraded capacity hence degraded range per charge).

2)Whether we can manufacture such high performance batteries (which signify the bulk of the cost of any electric vehicle) in India ?
Recently i read ISRO has some Li ion chemistry perfected to manufacture batteries for satellites - is that chemistry comparable to the chemistry being used by likes of tesla etc ?

3)If we dont have a near enough beginning point in battery chemistry - which i understand is often incrementally improving & not by leaps or bounds , Indian automobile companies will only be doing screwdriver giri with imported batteries.
It neither creates self reliance nor ties up with make in India - creation of jobs.

A nice read below on battery economics.
http://energy.mit.edu/news/whats-cost-g ... o-with-it/

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1097
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 14 Oct 2016 02:20

1 The car battery will typically lose the ability to charge and only hold about 50% after 200K km.

2 We do not need ISRO. Panasonic and LG chem are the global leaders here. The requirement is of raw materials to produce the battery. Lithium prices has dropped from a peek of 80 dollars per KG to 12 dollars. It is all about economies of scale. We need the GOI to create conditions to set up optimal size plants.

3 Totally agree. But it is not about becoming the global leader in everything. Tesla is setting up the factory with with the help of Panasonic.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1097
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 14 Oct 2016 02:28

saip wrote:Right now it is not that cheap to run the electric car if the gas prices stay at $2.50 or so per US Gallon. I have Chevrolet Volt. It has both battery (about 53 miles on it) and a small gasoline engine with 8 gallons or so capacity. My Volt gives me about 3 miles per unit. Unit cost for me is on average 24c or 8 cents per mile. The same car if run on gas alone gave me 40+ miles per gallon. I did run it on gas alone once to just for the heck of it. Gas is 6c per mile. My utility offers a night time price for energy and if I charge only at night then the price is 11c. But they jack up the prices during the rest of the day to almost 44c and my analysis did not show significant savings if I opt for that may be half a cent. As I have this car only for three months I am still analyzing my usage. Right now if the gas prices go up to $3.20 I break even and if they go up to $4 (I am in CA and they did go up that high some time back) I save.
It is clean I admit and I can use HOV lane while driving which is a benefit.



I think you are grossly overpaying for the power. In india the cost is about RS 7-8 per unit. But it could become cheaper. Typically it would be possible to travel 5 KM per Kwh. If petrol is costing Rs 65 per liter. The EV will give the qual milage of 43 Km per ltr.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1097
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 14 Oct 2016 02:47

PV producers are setting up power plants with as low cost as 3 cents per KW or Rs 2 per Kwh.

Let us assume that the battery lasts 15 years (5475 days).
Let us assume that the cost of battery is USD 150 Per kwh. (Rs 9600)
Now if we divide RS 9600 on the 5475 days we get a cost per Kwh of RS 1.7

Rs 2 per Kwh plus the storage cost of Rs 1,7 gives us Rs 3,7 Rupees.

I see that Individual systems will probably cost more. But the prices are still falling both for batteries and PV panels. As the electricity does not have to travel far, it will be possible to run appliences on DC in stead of AC. I think Jhunjinwala reconed savings in the tune of 40%.

Are we about to get an new energy revolution?
Last edited by Rishirishi on 14 Oct 2016 02:52, edited 1 time in total.

ashbhee
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 96
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 07:05

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby ashbhee » 14 Oct 2016 02:50

A big chunk of petroleum consumption is by 2 and 3 wheelers. We can can easily go electric on those vehicles. Users can even detach powerpacks, take them indoors and plugin at night or while working in office.

Autos can multiple battery packs, use one while charger other and swap during lunch breaks. This will go a big way in cutting energy imports and improving air quality.

As the nuclear plants come online they will have dedicated base load demand at night.

On the long run, we can make NH Diamond quadrilateral, NS-EW Highway electric highways with quick electric chargers every 25 Kms or so. Then we can have electric tucks etc..

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1097
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 14 Oct 2016 03:28

Cost of home PV system per KW seems to be Rs 38 000 per Kwh
http://www.bijlibachao.com/solar/solar-panel-cell-cost-price-list-in-india.html

Let us assume the lifetime for this system is 15 years. The EMI per month is RS 481 at 13% interest rate.
The system will give 10Kwh per day for 30 days hence 300units of electricity. or RS 1,6 per unit :shock: :shock: :shock:

Storage.
1 KW of storage cost 9600 (at 150 USD per Kwh). Lifetime is 15 years. EMI at 13 % interest rate is RS 121 per month.
We can store 1 kwh 30 times in a month (once per day). Rs 121/30 is RS 4 per unit.

Total cost per unit is RS 6,4 :shock: :shock:

I have not calculated cost of transformers and installation as this has a longer life then 15 years. But on the other hand i have not factored for Inflation. 10 years down the line RS 6,4 will be much less then it is now. On top of that the lifetime is probably longer then 15 years.

saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3625
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby saip » 14 Oct 2016 04:05

Rishirishi wrote:
saip wrote:Right now it is not that cheap to run the electric car if the gas prices stay at $2.50 or so per US Gallon. I have Chevrolet Volt. It has both battery (about 53 miles on it) and a small gasoline engine with 8 gallons or so capacity. My Volt gives me about 3 miles per unit. Unit cost for me is on average 24c or 8 cents per mile. The same car if run on gas alone gave me 40+ miles per gallon. I did run it on gas alone once to just for the heck of it. Gas is 6c per mile. My utility offers a night time price for energy and if I charge only at night then the price is 11c. But they jack up the prices during the rest of the day to almost 44c and my analysis did not show significant savings if I opt for that may be half a cent. As I have this car only for three months I am still analyzing my usage. Right now if the gas prices go up to $3.20 I break even and if they go up to $4 (I am in CA and they did go up that high some time back) I save.
It is clean I admit and I can use HOV lane while driving which is a benefit.



I think you are grossly overpaying for the power. In india the cost is about RS 7-8 per unit. But it could become cheaper. Typically it would be possible to travel 5 KM per Kwh. If petrol is costing Rs 65 per liter. The EV will give the qual milage of 43 Km per ltr.

I seem to be paying twice as much as you guys do in India. But your gas prices are about $3.80 per gallon (us) compared $2.40 or so in the US.
So I guess in India the cost per mile for electric cars would be around 4c and almost 9.5c per mile if on gas.

Right now the cost of electric cars is quite steep (40k) but because you get almost $11,000 in Govt tax and other rebates it is bearable. But once a manufacturer sells 200,000 units the rebates cease and I do not know if anyone will buy. Tesla Model 3 bookings are in excess of 400,000 and so only the first 100,000 (as they have already sold other models) or so will get the rebates and the rest have to grin and bear it.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16391
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby NRao » 14 Oct 2016 11:36

Silicon Valley’s biggest companies are investing in renewable energy in a serious way

Image
Google, meanwhile, has invested in the Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System


This includes the world’s largest – a 750-megawatt power station in Madhya Pradesh in India. It’s been modestly named “Rewa Ultra Mega Solar” and authorities hope it will be finished in 2017.

tarun
BRFite
Posts: 107
Joined: 27 May 2009 17:45

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby tarun » 15 Oct 2016 17:06

The main problem tesla is working on solving is energy density ( weight of batteries ) and time to charge the batteries upto 75-80% ( 250 mile range) quickly via super-charger network.
For India :-
1. You can't simply carry that much dead weight in autos/two wheelers around. It simply doesn't work that way unless energy density drastically increases.
2. The capacity draw you can achieve from domestic supply is quite limited. Rarely do you see a household having a 3 phase connection capacity of more than 30 KVA or so required to do this kind of fast charging on vehicles even overnight.
3. This is an even bigger problem unless a super-charger network is established in India compatible with all electrical vehicles being produced.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1097
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 16 Oct 2016 02:59

tarun wrote:The main problem tesla is working on solving is energy density ( weight of batteries ) and time to charge the batteries upto 75-80% ( 250 mile range) quickly via super-charger network.
For India :-
1. You can't simply carry that much dead weight in autos/two wheelers around. It simply doesn't work that way unless energy density drastically increases.
2. The capacity draw you can achieve from domestic supply is quite limited. Rarely do you see a household having a 3 phase connection capacity of more than 30 KVA or so required to do this kind of fast charging on vehicles even overnight.
3. This is an even bigger problem unless a super-charger network is established in India compatible with all electrical vehicles being produced.


In Norway Electric cars have a marketshare of 20% due tax holiday on EV's. Energy density is not the really the issue. It is all about the cost of batteries. Dead weigh is not such a great problem.

The charging capacity is certainly a problem in India. There is limited supply of electricity. You only need a 16V connection to charge the batteries over night. But you could have a situation where large housing societies, build such infrastructure. Imagine if PV park owners are able to sell directly to several large consumers.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1246
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Gyan » 16 Oct 2016 14:19

Using thermal solar energy plants and electric cars, takes out fossil fuels completely out of loop but running costs would be to 2-4 times more then conventional fuel chain.

TKiran
BRFite
Posts: 923
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 00:22

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby TKiran » 16 Oct 2016 14:32

In Shanghai, you can see all the 2wheelers are electrical. 1full recharge costs 1RMB, in your parking space. Almost all the work places have free power supply for the recharge. It's working very well in Shanghai. I didn't see much 4 wheelers though.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1097
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 17 Oct 2016 04:36

Gyan wrote:Using thermal solar energy plants and electric cars, takes out fossil fuels completely out of loop but running costs would be to 2-4 times more then conventional fuel chain.


PV solar energy already cheaper. Hence Fossil fuels is already out. The current problem is Battery costs. They are said to be dollars 200 per Kwh but it is speculated that Teslas gigafactory could bring this down to 100 dollars. At 100 Dollars, per Kwh, EV will win the race hands down.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7186
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 17 Oct 2016 10:21

tarun wrote:The main problem tesla is working on solving is energy density ( weight of batteries ) and time to charge the batteries upto 75-80% ( 250 mile range) quickly via super-charger network.


The time to charge depends upon the amount of electrons you are able to pump in a given amount of time safely. Think of electrons as water measured by the "amps" and the voltage as the "speed"., a higher 240 V/50 Amp will charge up at the speed of 50 miles an hour or 200 miles in 4 hours. This is available in general in Indian homes. Heck during Ganesh Chaturthis or Mkharrams., the 440 V lines are tapped to power the entire pandal - so there are enough line technicians to create a super charger.

A supercharger will charge up 200 miles in a flat out 40 mins. If given free., no Indian will mind waiting for 1 hour to charge out their cars or suvs after a 400-500 km journey.

However what will work is not the Tesla Model S or Model X kind of cars., but the Nissan Leaf kind. Ones that go 150-200 km on a single charge and get charged up in the nights. A reliable power supply is the must so urban centers will benefit and further it will reduce the pollution and bring down the gas bills.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7186
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 17 Oct 2016 10:44

Cost of electricity in India is cheap. It is heavily subsidized. As SaiP points out., the slab system incurs cost at sometimes 44 cents per KwH during peak time in CA.

Also for India., small EVs and 2-wheeler EVs will be the go to vehicles., within 3-5 years. It is faster., non-polluting and instead of charging up the vehicle., there might be kiosks that dispenses batteries - like go to the local paanwallah and exchange your depleted batteries for a fully recharged one., put it in the scooter or 2-wheeler and drive to your destination.

---

By 2030s EV will be the in-thing and ICE is going to be relic. It is just a matter of time. All it takes is 5% improvement in battery capacity per year and by 2025., the inflection point will be reached when the cutover happens en-masse. 2017/2018 will be the precursor to that change.

----
Cost of PV at retail end is $5 to $6 per KW before incentives kick in. This is still costly for an individual to put on a rooftop solar.

The efficiency of the PV is at 21%. It needs to go up to at least 30% before it becomes affordable., that is if becomes $4 per Watt before rebates., it will be $10k to put in a 2.5 KW system. There is no point in making it more efficient for residential or private purposes since the installation cost outpaces the panel costs!

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1246
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Gyan » 17 Oct 2016 14:42

It seems that now Denmark has many days in the year when 100% energy is supplied by renewabes, mainly wind energy based electricity. And this is gainin ground all over the world.

sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2009
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby sudarshan » 17 Oct 2016 20:27

Electrification of vehicular propulsion would be a welcome development in India. Thanks to current vehicular emissions, problems with wheezing and other breathing-related issues are prevalent in many Indian cities. Even formerly healthy people are coming down with these kinds of issues, it is freakishly scary. Much easier to control pollution in industrial settings like power plants. The problem is the two-stroke engines used in two-wheelers and autos. In fact, passenger autos are one segment which can be forced to go electric, that would mitigate a lot of vehicular pollution problems right there.

With electric propulsion, I expect vehicle inspection and certification to be greatly simplified. Inspecting electric motors and batteries would be much easier, and the emissions component of inspection and certification would go away entirely.

However, there has been a lot of accumulated gyaan on IC engines over the past few centuries, and this needs to be preserved in some way for future reference. IC engines would still be in use of course in bigger systems, where batteries are impractical, like ship or aircraft engines (though aircraft engines are actually gas turbines, not the vehicle-type ICEs). Stand-by diesel and petrol engines would also still be ICEs.

Thinking far into the future, many of the pollution issues are due to high temperatures and incomplete combustion. NOx is a high-temperature issue. Unburned HCs and CO are due to incomplete combustion. The human body manages to release energy from food-stuffs without high temperatures, using enzyme catalysts. Combustion occurs even at room temperature, but *very very slowly.* It would take thousands of years for a piece of wood, for instance, to completely burn up at room temperature. This process is speeded up to happen within seconds, by high temperatures (>600 to 800 deg. C).

The human body, on the other hand, uses a minimal temperature rise (37 deg. C) to achieve this same combustion. This is a highly efficient combustion process, speeded up millions of times using specialized enzyme molecules, without associated emission problems, which would be worth researching for commercial systems as well.

MurthyB
BRFite
Posts: 703
Joined: 18 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: "Visa Officer", Indian Consulate #13,451, Khost Province, Afghanistan

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby MurthyB » 21 Oct 2016 01:26

saip wrote:Right now it is not that cheap to run the electric car if the gas prices stay at $2.50 or so per US Gallon. I have Chevrolet Volt. It has both battery (about 53 miles on it) and a small gasoline engine with 8 gallons or so capacity. My Volt gives me about 3 miles per unit. Unit cost for me is on average 24c or 8 cents per mile. The same car if run on gas alone gave me 40+ miles per gallon. I did run it on gas alone once to just for the heck of it. Gas is 6c per mile. My utility offers a night time price for energy and if I charge only at night then the price is 11c. But they jack up the prices during the rest of the day to almost 44c and my analysis did not show significant savings if I opt for that may be half a cent. As I have this car only for three months I am still analyzing my usage. Right now if the gas prices go up to $3.20 I break even and if they go up to $4 (I am in CA and they did go up that high some time back) I save.
It is clean I admit and I can use HOV lane while driving which is a benefit.


Get the EVA rate. It's 10c/kwh from 11pm to 7am. I have an I3 and it gives 4.3mil/kwh. Even with a Prius type of vehicle that gets 43+ mpg, the ev cost would be a $1 vs $2.50. But I am replacing a minivan that only gives 18mpg. Soon I will have rooftop solar as well, so the green conversion reaches a new stage :mrgreen:

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5152
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby SBajwa » 21 Oct 2016 01:43

CA is ripping off its people. Here in PA.
This month I have used 1095 KWH and my bill is $167.02 that comes to $0.152 per KWH.
The specific charges per KWH for the company that distributes are
$0.037 for Distribution.
$0.000260 "solar requirements charge"
$0.001410 for "Service Support Charge"
Total $64.97.
While the company that produces "Clean energy" charges are
$0.093200 per KWH so it is $102.05 total $167.02. an average of 15 cents per KWH. That's 10 rupees per KWH.

and I got normal Unleaded Octane 87 for my honda pilot at $2.45 (costco) per gallon that's $2.45 for 3.78541 liters. That's about 41 rupees per liter after conversion.

IMHO the problem is the alcohol and cigarettes like taxes on considered "luxury items" by quasi socialist states like CA and India. There is a big petroleum lobby that discourages electric vehicles. They were behind the banks (from where people can get auto financing) to not endorse Tesla. I think even today you cannot get an "Auto loan" for Tesla. So tesla have their own bank for financing it.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7186
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 21 Oct 2016 03:30

SBajwa wrote:CA is ripping off its people. Here in PA.
This month I have used 1095 KWH and my bill is $167.02 that comes to $0.152 per KWH.
The specific charges per KWH for the company that distributes are
$0.037 for Distribution.
$0.000260 "solar requirements charge"
$0.001410 for "Service Support Charge"
Total $64.97.
While the company that produces "Clean energy" charges are
$0.093200 per KWH so it is $102.05 total $167.02. an average of 15 cents per KWH. That's 10 rupees per KWH.

and I got normal Unleaded Octane 87 for my honda pilot at $2.45 (costco) per gallon that's $2.45 for 3.78541 liters. That's about 41 rupees per liter after conversion.

IMHO the problem is the alcohol and cigarettes like taxes on considered "luxury items" by quasi socialist states like CA and India. There is a big petroleum lobby that discourages electric vehicles. They were behind the banks (from where people can get auto financing) to not endorse Tesla. I think even today you cannot get an "Auto loan" for Tesla. So tesla have their own bank for financing it.


It is not the CA., but PG&E in N.Cal and SoCal Edison. PG & E is one big gargantuan investor owned company which everybody hates. Several counties and cities wanted to get rid of PG & E but it is proving difficult. Think of it as California's AT & T. PG&E and Gray Davis cost CA some $40-45 Billion USD losses in 2001 and led to rolling blackouts. (Gray Davis was a useless spineless corrupt democrat). Part of high prices is the debt PG&E took on and transferred to CA which you are paying now as part of your electricity bill. In effect, you got 'enroned'.

Another factor hurting you is the CA aversion with nuclear tech. CA should go with some 20 GW of nuclear energy and get rid of some more Hydro-electric dams. So in effect you are paying for "green energy" not just directly but indirectly because of lack of generation capacity to meet pick demand.

You should have gone to Time-of-Use plan with PGE (and that is closed now)., that is your payment is based on when you use your most electricity.

Second., you are using 35 KWH average on a daily basis. That is way too high. Put it this way., you are using 2x my peak usage daily and I do not consider my home small for CA size (CA homes generally are becoming like japanese homes - tiny). No doubt your bill is high.

I have a suggestion., spend some $400 and replace all your bulbs in house with LED ones. You will save some $80 per month and your $400 investment will be recouped in next 6 months. That is what I did.

Primus
BRFite
Posts: 897
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: Ground Zero

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Primus » 21 Oct 2016 16:35

Interesting thread.

I just bought my second Tesla, this time the Model X. Love the concept and the car. Where I live, the cost of power is unbelievable, as Bajwa Ji says, PSE&G are ripping us off too. My cost is $20.3 c per KWH, and I use 115kWH per day - yes, it's not a typo. I live in a 60 yr old home and the A/C kills us every summer.

Two months ago we had an offer from a solar company that on review sounded very good. They have guaranteed a lifetime charge of just 15c per KWH plus there are savings as tax rebates in the first three years. The installation of the panels is all free as is the maintenance, the only catch is a 20 yr contract, which is transferable to the new buyers of the house. The problem is that our local town does not allow solar panels on the side of the house that is visible from the street (we live on a very busy main road), so we had to go through an 'Architectural Review Board'. Finally they have approved a limited installation which means we may not be able to replace our entire need from solar. But it is a step in the right direction.

At the end of the day, even if we do not realize real savings by going solar, it is important from our own perspective to do what we can.

BTW, all of Tesla's superchargers are free for life for the owners (the cost is built into the purchase price) and are powered by solar panels.

Lilo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4069
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 09:08

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Lilo » 21 Oct 2016 22:23

Mahindra E2o plus launched today,
ABS carbody instead of metals , 85kmph top speed , 140km range - 9 hour charging time, 210ah capacity battery.

specs,review & a vedio

What you'll like:

• 4 doors make the e2oPlus a lot more practical for Indian families
• Help save the planet! Zero tailpipe emissions and smaller carbon footprint
• Power steering, 'auto box' & narrow width make it a breeze to drive in the city
• Claimed 110/140 km range is adequate for daily commuting. Fast charging capability too
• Rear legroom is very impressive
• Features such as smartphone integration, android head-unit, GPS navigation, reversing camera etc.
• ABS body panels are dent-resistant and less prone to ugly scratches

What you won't:

• Still too expensive (especially outside Delhi) for what is a small hatchback
• Strictly a 4-seater car. Same price competitors can accommodate 5
• Top speed of merely 85 km/h. Not a car for the open road
• Bumpy ride quality (rear seat) & mediocre dynamics. Suspension needs better tuning
• Range restriction means you really can't take it out on the highway
• Fit & finish in some areas leave a lot to be desired
• You'll need a charging point in your parking spot

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/official- ... eview.html

http://www.carandbike.com/mahindra-cars ... ifications

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaA7JYnqc90

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7186
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 21 Oct 2016 22:37

Primus wrote:The problem is that our local town does not allow solar panels on the side of the house that is visible from the street (we live on a very busy main road), so we had to go through an 'Architectural Review Board'.


Primus'ji - I can guess which city it is :-D., my recommendation - please burn down the house in that city - your land value will go up a lot!! And rebuild a new house and your new house value will be way way high. [all in jest]

And congrats on your second Tesla and new Model X. It is a great car. As all EVs are.

I went in with new solar installation. 5 KWh system. I will of course see substantial tax rebates upfront on that. Which will shave off 1/3 rd of the installation cost. With the new installation cost and assuming I use the solar panels exclusively to drive EV cars for the next 25 years (for the life of solar panels)., my equivalent miles per gallon will be 150. That is my energy cost will be 150 miles/gallon equivalent. Compared to new Prius., that is 3x efficient and compared to fleet average of sedans in US., that is 5x boost in productivity. Remember, this is residential solar on my roof, which is $5 per watt installation., or @$3.5 per watt after tax rebates.

For commercial electricity (solar or nuclear or coal or hydroelectric)., the per watt commissioning way less than the above!

It is a matter of time that the ICE are going to go away. Maybe within next 10 years. Think of the changes it is going to bring to the OPEC?

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Hitesh » 21 Oct 2016 22:46

I am not getting solar power until the installation costs come way down. I have crunched the numbers and it doesn't make sense for me to go for any kind of solar power system. I use 81 kwh a day on average and my cost of electricity is 11.25 cents per kwh. 5kwh system is not gonna do it for me. I would need, at minimum, a 18kwh system with 100 kwh batteries for me to go truly off the grid. It makes no sense for me to get a partial system because I would still have to pay for electricity.

This only makes sense if i stay with the house for more than 12 years but the problem is that the parts of the solar panel system expires well before 12 years before i see any payoff.

I am sticking with the utility until the installation costs have come down and the battery costs come down. For this to make sense, the 18 Kwh solar system along with the battery would have to be $35,000 inclusive of all parts, labor, fees, permits and installation costs. Tax rebates only help a little but not much.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7186
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 21 Oct 2016 22:58

Lilo wrote:Mahindra E2o plus launched today,
ABS carbody instead of metals , 85kmph top speed , 140km range - 9 hour charging time, 210ah capacity battery.



With faster charging., complete charging can be done in say 1.5 hrs. Great for cities. Add in regenerative braking (mahindra really needs to invest in that tech) and the range can go to 180 km.

This can be used by the taxis in cities to haul people and have charging spots at taxi stands.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7186
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 21 Oct 2016 23:10

Hitesh wrote:I am not getting solar power until the installation costs come way down. I have crunched the numbers and it doesn't make sense for me to go for any kind of solar power system. I use 81 kwh a day on average and my cost of electricity is 11.25 cents per kwh. 5kwh system is not gonna do it for me. I would need, at minimum, a 18kwh system with 100 kwh batteries for me to go truly off the grid. It makes no sense for me to get a partial system because I would still have to pay for electricity.


Are you sure you are using that much of electricity? Are you saying that you consume 81 KWh a day? And not 81 KWh in entire month?

For example., if you leave 100 watt bulb on for 1 hour., it consumes 100 Wh of energy. Of course if you leave it on for 10 hours., you have consumed 1KWh of energy for that bulb. Are you saying that you are leaving equivalent of 81 such bulbs on entire day in your house? No sunlight during day time in your house?

Another example, a 1000 Watt microwave used for 1 Hour will use 1 KWh. You must be doing cooking on microwave for at least 10 hours continuously to consume 10 KWh!!.

I guess you must have bunch of computers and an electric range cooktop. Not sure about your computers., but replace your electric range cooktop with an induction cooktop.

I am sticking with the utility until the installation costs have come down and the battery costs come down. For this to make sense, the 18 Kwh solar system along with the battery would have to be $35,000 inclusive of all parts, labor, fees, permits and installation costs. Tax rebates only help a little but not much.


Sir ji., get your math right. The 36,000$ installation will be $24,000 after federal tax rebate (1/3rd rebate). And since you are consuming so much, you do not need batteries.

But get your consumption numbers right.

Lilo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4069
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 09:08

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Lilo » 22 Oct 2016 01:16

disha wrote:
Lilo wrote:Mahindra E2o plus launched today,
ABS carbody instead of metals , 85kmph top speed , 140km range - 9 hour charging time, 210ah capacity battery.



With faster charging., complete charging can be done in say 1.5 hrs. Great for cities. Add in regenerative braking (mahindra really needs to invest in that tech) and the range can go to 180 km.

This can be used by the taxis in cities to haul people and have charging spots at taxi stands.


The Fast Charge option exists for this car - in that mode it can charge in 75 minutes.
But i would not Fast Charge for regular use - as AFAIK, FC tends to reduce battery life (any chance of this changing with new Li-ion techs being introduced by Tesla et al ?)
The car already comes with regenerative braking - i dont know if the range figure of 140 Km claimed by mahindra included some average % use of regenerative braking.

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Hitesh » 22 Oct 2016 01:40

disha wrote:
Are you sure you are using that much of electricity? Are you saying that you consume 81 KWh a day? And not 81 KWh in entire month?


Yes my FPL online account shows the energy dashboard where it displays the usage. My house uses an average of 2,500 Kwh per month.

For example., if you leave 100 watt bulb on for 1 hour., it consumes 100 Wh of energy. Of course if you leave it on for 10 hours., you have consumed 1KWh of energy for that bulb. Are you saying that you are leaving equivalent of 81 such bulbs on entire day in your house? No sunlight during day time in your house?


It is the A/C that consumes the most power. I have one big fridge and a regular size fridge. I also have a pool pump. I live in South Florida where it can get hot. I have four people living in my house. I pay on average of $240 a month for the year.

Another example, a 1000 Watt microwave used for 1 Hour will use 1 KWh. You must be doing cooking on microwave for at least 10 hours continuously to consume 10 KWh!!.
No, it is the A/C and I use a smart thermostat. I employ all kinds of energy saving devices.

I guess you must have bunch of computers and an electric range cooktop. Not sure about your computers., but replace your electric range cooktop with an induction cooktop.


It has an induction cooktop.


Sir ji., get your math right. The 36,000$ installation will be $24,000 after federal tax rebate (1/3rd rebate). And since you are consuming so much, you do not need batteries.

But get your consumption numbers right.


My math is right. My consumption numbers are right. I have been researching this and it really doesn't make sense for me to go for solar power system. For an 18 kwh combined with an 100 Kwh battery system (15 *Tesla 7 kwh battery priced at $3k each = $45k. The 10kwh version has been discontinued. A 10Kwh solar system cost around $35k and need 18kkwh system so getting two systems), the projected cost is $115k. Breaking this over 15 years costs me around $7,666.67 a year where I currently pay $3k~3.2k a year. I am not using a 25 year period because after my research, the parts start to wear out after 10 years and need replacement. And I gave a 5 year cushion to account for any long lasting items. Even if I use the 25 year period, it comes out to be $4.6k a year, still $1.5k more than what I currently pay for electricity.

Primus
BRFite
Posts: 897
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: Ground Zero

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Primus » 22 Oct 2016 04:06

disha wrote:
Primus wrote:The problem is that our local town does not allow solar panels on the side of the house that is visible from the street (we live on a very busy main road), so we had to go through an 'Architectural Review Board'.


Primus'ji - I can guess which city it is :-D., my recommendation - please burn down the house in that city - your land value will go up a lot!! And rebuild a new house and your new house value will be way way high. [all in jest]

And congrats on your second Tesla and new Model X. It is a great car. As all EVs are.



Thank you, Disha Ji. And I would if I could. Was hoping Sandy would do it but it only blew off a part of our roof :((

Hitesh Ji, for many years we've faced the same dilemma, wanted to go solar but it did not make any financial sense. We did a major renovation project 6 yrs ago but still couldn't do it.

Now with this new solar company things are different and I don't know if something like this would apply to or be available in South Florida - BTW, we plan to move there in a few years time, hopefully so this would be an interesting option.

Basically the cost of electricity in our area is very high, as currently provided by the Utility Co. It comes to around 20 c per KWH, all told. The solar panels being put in are each 285W and the total array originally was going to be around 20KW but with the village permit issues will probably end up being half that.

Anyway, the beauty of the deal is that the entire project, from applying for permits to installation and maintenance, replacement of faulty parts etc is absolutely free to us. They will even repair our roof if there is damage to it from the panels. The catch is the 20 yr contract. However, it is likely that the value of the home will go up with solar panels and if I was a new buyer I would be happy to assume the contract if it meant cheaper and cleaner electricity. At the present rate, the solar power is 5c per KWH cheaper for us. It is going to be even cheaper with time as the utility company raises their rates with inflation while the solar rate is locked in. The only problem is that with the limitations on the number of panels, we can only get about 50-60% of our needs met this way.

Even if we do not realize any cost savings, just having part or the majority of our power needs met by clean energy in itself is quite satisfying. However, we would not have been able to do this were it not for the solar company coming up with their present deal.

The plan now would be to do a careful analysis and eliminate all excess consumption - it makes no sense to want to be 'clean' and then be gluttons as well.

MurthyB
BRFite
Posts: 703
Joined: 18 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: "Visa Officer", Indian Consulate #13,451, Khost Province, Afghanistan

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby MurthyB » 22 Oct 2016 04:28

Hitesh wrote: (15 *Tesla 7 kwh battery priced at $3k each = $45k.


Why do you need the battery. Don't they offer net metering in Florida where they buy power from you during the day? If so, that is a better option.

Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Hitesh » 22 Oct 2016 04:35

Was calculating at a off the grid standpoint of a view. as for net-metering, FPL hates it and wants to get rid of it. They may be successful at it. So wouldn't count on it as a long term prospect. Hence the battery costs. Furthermore, net metering doesn't help you at the higher price bands during certain hours, i.e., 6-10 am and 5-10 pm are those when the price per kwh is the highest. Since that is the time when the sun is not shining or at its peak, you won't get that much power from the solar panel system and have to rely on the electricity provided by the FPL. However at other times during the day, we are not home and we don't need that power and so do the rest of the majority of homes and power provided at these times are lower. So instead of feeding back into the grid, you would want to save the power you generate for the time you use the most.

saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3625
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby saip » 22 Oct 2016 05:16

MurthyB wrote:
Get the EVA rate. It's 10c/kwh from 11pm to 7am. I have an I3 and it gives 4.3mil/kwh. Even with a Prius type of vehicle that gets 43+ mpg, the ev cost would be a $1 vs $2.50. But I am replacing a minivan that only gives 18mpg. Soon I will have rooftop solar as well, so the green conversion reaches a new stage :mrgreen:


EVA rate is OK in Winter as the peak rate is around 32c and we do not use much elec during peak time. But in summer it is 44.5 c. The peak time is between 2pm and 9pm weekdays and 3pm and 7pm week ends. That is when we use the AC.

I have already changed most of my light bulbs to LED. At least the ones I use most.


Return to “Technology & Economic Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests