It maybe a greenhouse gas but it will condense out to water in a few hours or days depending upon weather unlike CO2 which will stay there indefinitely.nachiket wrote:
As for the argument that using H2 fuel cells does not produce CO2 (unlike burning Methane for example), well it still produces water vapor which is also a greenhouse gas. Now the recent "zero emission" future aircraft concepts revealed by Airbus which run on H2 fuel cells make even less sense. Releasing large amounts of water vapor into the atmosphere at high altitude is nearly as bad as releasing CO2. Neither is the H2 a renewable energy source as discussed. So what problem are these aircraft supposed to solve escapes me.
Electric vehicle and power storage
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
India close to finalising incentives under new battery swap scheme.
India said on Tuesday it will introduce a new policy to promote swapping, a service that allows EV drivers to replace depleted battery blocks
for freshly charged ones at swap stations. This is faster than charging the vehicle and reduces range anxiety for drivers. The Indian government is expected to finalise incentives under its new battery swap scheme for electric vehicles (EVs) within the next two months, an official told Reuters, amid a broader clean mobility push to meet its decarbonisation goals.
The policy will initially focus on battery swap services for electric scooters, motorcycles and three-wheeled auto rickshaws, the official said, in a boost for sectors like last-mile delivery and ride-sharing.
A battery is also the most expensive part in an EV and swapping allows companies to offer it as a service through lease or subscription models, bringing down the cost of owning and operating the vehicle, industry executives say.
The government is likely to offer EV owners an incentive of up to 20% of the total subscription or lease cost of the battery and this will be in addition to what they already get for buying clean vehicles, the person said.
In 2019, India set aside 100 billion rupees ($1.3 billion) to promote EVs by giving incentives directly to buyers, but only about 10% of this has been used. Incentives for battery swapping will likely be given from the same fund, the official said.
Globally, battery swapping has been slow to gain traction especially among carmakers.
Tesla Inc, years ago, tested the model and decided not to offer it to customers but rival Nio Inc offers swap services across China. Last month, Chinese battery maker Contemporary Amperex Technology announced plans to launch swap stations.
In India, oil giant Reliance Industries has formed a joint venture with Britain's BP Plc to offer battery swapping. Motorbike maker Hero MotoCorp and Taiwan's Gogoro have also partnered to set up swap stations, and the service is offered by start-up Sun Mobility as well.
The government will also define battery design and charging standards for companies that want to set up swap stations. This is to ensure the batteries can be used across EV models of different automakers, the official said. "The idea is that if one company sets up a battery swap station, vehicles of another company should be able to use the same battery and service. Disruption will only come with scale," the person said.
India said on Tuesday it will introduce a new policy to promote swapping, a service that allows EV drivers to replace depleted battery blocks
for freshly charged ones at swap stations. This is faster than charging the vehicle and reduces range anxiety for drivers. The Indian government is expected to finalise incentives under its new battery swap scheme for electric vehicles (EVs) within the next two months, an official told Reuters, amid a broader clean mobility push to meet its decarbonisation goals.
The policy will initially focus on battery swap services for electric scooters, motorcycles and three-wheeled auto rickshaws, the official said, in a boost for sectors like last-mile delivery and ride-sharing.
A battery is also the most expensive part in an EV and swapping allows companies to offer it as a service through lease or subscription models, bringing down the cost of owning and operating the vehicle, industry executives say.
The government is likely to offer EV owners an incentive of up to 20% of the total subscription or lease cost of the battery and this will be in addition to what they already get for buying clean vehicles, the person said.
In 2019, India set aside 100 billion rupees ($1.3 billion) to promote EVs by giving incentives directly to buyers, but only about 10% of this has been used. Incentives for battery swapping will likely be given from the same fund, the official said.
Globally, battery swapping has been slow to gain traction especially among carmakers.
Tesla Inc, years ago, tested the model and decided not to offer it to customers but rival Nio Inc offers swap services across China. Last month, Chinese battery maker Contemporary Amperex Technology announced plans to launch swap stations.
In India, oil giant Reliance Industries has formed a joint venture with Britain's BP Plc to offer battery swapping. Motorbike maker Hero MotoCorp and Taiwan's Gogoro have also partnered to set up swap stations, and the service is offered by start-up Sun Mobility as well.
The government will also define battery design and charging standards for companies that want to set up swap stations. This is to ensure the batteries can be used across EV models of different automakers, the official said. "The idea is that if one company sets up a battery swap station, vehicles of another company should be able to use the same battery and service. Disruption will only come with scale," the person said.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
This policy sounds right to me. One could drive up to a swap station and get a swap in as much time as you would an IC car at a petrol station. Better than sitting around until the integrated battery pack in your EV charges.
Tesla etc may complain since their cars use a very sophisticated algorithm to optimise battery pack performance across temperature ranges, but in India's climate, it may be a lot less critical.
Will also encourage EV adoption since battery pack is the most expensive component and if it fails hors warranty, replacing it would be unaffordable. Decoupling the EV & battery pack reduces this risk greatly.
The best thing of course would be to move towards shared vehicles to reduce congestion and environmental impact. European Govts have promoted this a lot in the recent years, especially in urban areas, with compact EV cars. I believe its been tried in India as well, Hyderabad Metro introduced a few such cars pre-covid. Not sure where they are now and whats the experience gained.
Tesla etc may complain since their cars use a very sophisticated algorithm to optimise battery pack performance across temperature ranges, but in India's climate, it may be a lot less critical.
Will also encourage EV adoption since battery pack is the most expensive component and if it fails hors warranty, replacing it would be unaffordable. Decoupling the EV & battery pack reduces this risk greatly.
The best thing of course would be to move towards shared vehicles to reduce congestion and environmental impact. European Govts have promoted this a lot in the recent years, especially in urban areas, with compact EV cars. I believe its been tried in India as well, Hyderabad Metro introduced a few such cars pre-covid. Not sure where they are now and whats the experience gained.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Indian ride-hailing app Ola to open £100m electric car facility in Coventry
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... n-coventry
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... n-coventry
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Maybe indian car makers can place the swap enabled battery packs in the same location as IC engine instead of current gen EVs where that place is also used as storage.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Don't think so, Tesla's solution of placing it under the cabin floor is the best, because battery packs are very heavy and this placement lowers the vehicle's center of gravity and improves stability, reduces tendency to roll when cornering, in case of accidents etc. Putting a heavy pack under the front bonnet above the front wheels is not optimal.
If the housing of the battery pack under the floor can be made into a slide in - slide out module, then a car arrives at a battery station, and manually or using a robotic arm, the vehicle is lifted/placed on a raised platform and the depleted battery is slid out and charged battery I slid in, few checks are made electronically and you're good to go. Almost like a F1 pit stop.
Very much doable from engineering tech perspective, if the business model scales up and enough number of EV makers adopt a common design standard.
The battery business itself can be totally independent with multiple competing suppliers just like fuel suppliers today. Solar/Hydro energy can be used to recharge spent battery packs. If the battery-EV integration is a standard design, then it can accommodate evolving battery tech with little or no impact on the EV's design. Software can be developed to detect the battery type and optimise yield and EV performance accordingly.
All this is very much achievable if the Govt creates the right conditions and pushes the industries along.
The weak point is batteries - which require lot of rare earth minerals which are not present everywhere and their extraction has a huge environmental cost. Batteries themselves have a huge environmental cost through their lifecycle. There are billions of $$$ being invested in developing batteries that do not need rare earths, breakthrough claims are made now and then but we have still a long way to go.
If the housing of the battery pack under the floor can be made into a slide in - slide out module, then a car arrives at a battery station, and manually or using a robotic arm, the vehicle is lifted/placed on a raised platform and the depleted battery is slid out and charged battery I slid in, few checks are made electronically and you're good to go. Almost like a F1 pit stop.
Very much doable from engineering tech perspective, if the business model scales up and enough number of EV makers adopt a common design standard.
The battery business itself can be totally independent with multiple competing suppliers just like fuel suppliers today. Solar/Hydro energy can be used to recharge spent battery packs. If the battery-EV integration is a standard design, then it can accommodate evolving battery tech with little or no impact on the EV's design. Software can be developed to detect the battery type and optimise yield and EV performance accordingly.
All this is very much achievable if the Govt creates the right conditions and pushes the industries along.
The weak point is batteries - which require lot of rare earth minerals which are not present everywhere and their extraction has a huge environmental cost. Batteries themselves have a huge environmental cost through their lifecycle. There are billions of $$$ being invested in developing batteries that do not need rare earths, breakthrough claims are made now and then but we have still a long way to go.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
^^^^
Just to add further to the already good points. the problem of pollution can be reduced if two and three wheelers are run with battery operated vehicles and battery swap for these should lead to better organization of the car battery swap and standards.
The other one will be trucks and buses which will come in due course.
the one problem with battery swap of different companies could be different performance for different ones and he price for the same. As long as the battery being bought for x% charge is truly charged and works that way it should take off in a big way along with slightly lower price than petrol and diesel.
Just to add further to the already good points. the problem of pollution can be reduced if two and three wheelers are run with battery operated vehicles and battery swap for these should lead to better organization of the car battery swap and standards.
The other one will be trucks and buses which will come in due course.
the one problem with battery swap of different companies could be different performance for different ones and he price for the same. As long as the battery being bought for x% charge is truly charged and works that way it should take off in a big way along with slightly lower price than petrol and diesel.
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Rishirishi
- BRFite
- Posts: 1409
- Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
It costs approx 2 cr to build a charging station. What about building 10 000 charging stations across the country. Would make it possible to drive the car, even if the battery is small.In 2019, India set aside 100 billion rupees ($1.3 billion) to promote EVs by giving incentives directly to buyers, but only about 10% of this has been used. Incentives for battery swapping will likely be given from the same fund, the official said.
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Mort Walker
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 10039
- Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
- Location: The rings around Uranus.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
India has lots of coal for next 100 years. It should be liquified and turned into petrol and diesel. GoI should subsidize it where petrol and diesel sells for one Rupee per liter.
Anyone who promotes EV charging stations should pay tax of 1000% under special taxation rates.
Anyone who promotes EV charging stations should pay tax of 1000% under special taxation rates.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
2cr for a charging station is an atrociously high amount of money - all you need is a 32AMP circuit and a charger for a small one - it can be a cottage industry almost! even a cost of 50K USD - which is pretty high - works to like 40 Lakhs. Why 2 crores !!!!Rishirishi wrote:It costs approx 2 cr to build a charging station. What about building 10 000 charging stations across the country. Would make it possible to drive the car, even if the battery is small.In 2019, India set aside 100 billion rupees ($1.3 billion) to promote EVs by giving incentives directly to buyers, but only about 10% of this has been used. Incentives for battery swapping will likely be given from the same fund, the official said.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Coal is 19th century technology, causes black lung and pollution at its very direct source, and create massive deforestation and coal ash dumps that threaten the drinking supply of water for the local population.Mort Walker wrote:India has lots of coal for next 100 years. It should be liquified and turned into petrol and diesel. GoI should subsidize it where petrol and diesel sells for one Rupee per liter.
Anyone who promotes EV charging stations should pay tax of 1000% under special taxation rates.
Anyone who promotes coal should pay tax of 1000% under special taxation rates for the cost of compensating coal miners who get black lungs and people who suffer from the consequences of deforestation and for encouraging India to remain backwards and being behind the rest of the world as the rest of the world move on to 21st technology energy sources.
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Mort Walker
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 10039
- Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
- Location: The rings around Uranus.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
As expected, not the brightest bulb takes the bait!
On a more serious note, coal is taking a larger share of energy production in India. EVs and other battery operated devices will be powered by coal. GoI is pushing India’s domestic coal production increase to 1.2 billion metric tons by 2023-24 fiscal. A rise from 707 million metric tons in 2020-21.
On a more serious note, coal is taking a larger share of energy production in India. EVs and other battery operated devices will be powered by coal. GoI is pushing India’s domestic coal production increase to 1.2 billion metric tons by 2023-24 fiscal. A rise from 707 million metric tons in 2020-21.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Exactly, Mort ji, Furthermore, these EV tech needs rare earth elements, which will drive all sorts of polluting mining Industries across the planet, ruining ecosystems all over. Nuclear energy to create Hydrogen is a far less disruptive tech compared to Tesla/Battery-tech powered cars -- Tesla is not considered a clean energy car in Singapore and rightly is considered a polluting vehicle because SG produces all its power from coal. So driving around a Tesla car charged from a charging station that is supplied power by coal-fired electric plants is not exactly environmentally friendly.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/n ... l-s-owner/
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/n ... l-s-owner/
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
There is no way around coal for India at present., not at least for the next decade.. , despite all those alternative renewable energy sources coming online in thousands of megawatts.. India needs more and more power as its economy expands., coal is cheap and the infrastructure built around it are in thousands of crores not easily replaced.. it will take decades for IndiaMort Walker wrote:As expected, not the brightest bulb takes the bait!
On a more serious note, coal is taking a larger share of energy production in India. EVs and other battery operated devices will be powered by coal. GoI is pushing India’s domestic coal production increase to 1.2 billion metric tons by 2023-24 fiscal. A rise from 707 million metric tons in 2020-21.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
likely imported., why dont we have startups for this sectorV_Raman wrote:Rishirishi wrote:
2cr for a charging station is an atrociously high amount of money - all you need is a 32AMP circuit and a charger for a small one - it can be a cottage industry almost! even a cost of 50K USD - which is pretty high - works to like 40 Lakhs. Why 2 crores !!!!
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
In fact, all these alternate renewable energy sources are produced using gizmos which are being produced by coal right now. They are imported from China. I link below a Wikipedia page on "Netherlands Fallacy". So there is no go for India but to use coal to increase her GDP and better the lives of her citizens.kit wrote:... despite all those alternative renewable energy sources coming online in thousands of megawatts.. India needs more and more power as its economy expands., coal is cheap ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_fallacy
The Netherlands fallacy refers to an error Paul R. Ehrlich and his co-authors claim others make in assuming that the environmental impacts of the Netherlands and other rich nations are contained within their national borders.[1]
Environmentalists since the late 20th century have analyzed the environmental sink status and sink capacities of poor nations. As polluting industries migrate from rich to poor nations, the national ecological footprint of rich nations shrinks, whereas the international ecological footprint may increase or also decrease. The nature of the fallacy is to ignore increasing environmental damage in many developing nations and in international waters attributable to the imported goods or changes in the economy of such nations directly due to developed nations.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
It's also called green laundering.
Most developed countries report only CO2 produced on their soil, leaving out the impact of everything they import from food to clothing to electronics and cheap Chinese crap and whatever else.
Most developed countries report only CO2 produced on their soil, leaving out the impact of everything they import from food to clothing to electronics and cheap Chinese crap and whatever else.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Your bait is diddly squat. Ever hear of the term "stranded asset"? That is what your bait is: a stranded asset.Mort Walker wrote:As expected, not the brightest bulb takes the bait!
On a more serious note, coal is taking a larger share of energy production in India. EVs and other battery operated devices will be powered by coal. GoI is pushing India’s domestic coal production increase to 1.2 billion metric tons by 2023-24 fiscal. A rise from 707 million metric tons in 2020-21.
It costs money to mine and transport coal on a daily basis. With wind and solar power, you only have to consider the upfront costs of setting up the wind and solar power plants and once built, there is very little cost involved.
Why do you think so many coal fired plants are going out of business? Even coal mines are going out of business. Your plan for coal liquifaction even cost more money than setting up wind and solar power plants. Coal power plants and mines have become "stranded assets"
Over a long term period, it is cheaper to build wind and solar power plants combined with energy storage solutions than to operate coal power plants and maintain them.
Good luck on storing & transporting hydrogen. Producing hydrogen is not the problem. It is the storing and transporting hydrogen that is the problem. Hydrogen leaks through anything due to its very small size and makes all material including steel and other metals brittle, leading to breakage and leakage. It costs more energy to store & transport hydrogen than to transport electricity. For that reason, hydrogen based technology is not practical or feasible.srikandan wrote:Exactly, Mort ji, Furthermore, these EV tech needs rare earth elements, which will drive all sorts of polluting mining Industries across the planet, ruining ecosystems all over. Nuclear energy to create Hydrogen is a far less disruptive tech compared to Tesla/Battery-tech powered cars -- Tesla is not considered a clean energy car in Singapore and rightly is considered a polluting vehicle because SG produces all its power from coal. So driving around a Tesla car charged from a charging station that is supplied power by coal-fired electric plants is not exactly environmentally friendly.
As long as you replace coal power plants with renewable sources, you are able to transition to cleaner and more renewable resources and reduce your dependence on fossil fuels and you secure your energy independence ever more.
As for rare earth metals, wind and solar technology are moving away from rare earth elements towards more sustainable materials.
Coal is a dying sector in the western world. They are not even building any new coal power plants and they didn't even build one under the Trump administration who was the biggest pro coal administration that one could ever ask for and yet over 50 coal power plants were closed in the second largest energy sector in the world under his watch. For the first time in the US, coal power generation is less than the combined renewable energy sector and less than nuclear energy sector. Natural gas is king for now but renewable energy has moved into 3rd and will move into 2nd as more renewable power plants come online and aging nuclear power plants come offline. This is in an electrical sector that is more than 3 times larger than India's power electrical sector. Despite having larger coal reserves than India, the US increasingly see coal as a dead end. Even the coal producing states have begun seeing the writing on the wall such as Wyoming, West Virginia and Ohio. Even some of the republican politicians in those states are warming up to supporting renewable energy projects.kit wrote:There is no way around coal for India at present., not at least for the next decade.. , despite all those alternative renewable energy sources coming online in thousands of megawatts.. India needs more and more power as its economy expands., coal is cheap and the infrastructure built around it are in thousands of crores not easily replaced.. it will take decades for India
Furthermore, due to increasingly coal power plants and mines being classified as stranded assets, no major lender will now consider lending to building more power plants. India would have a very hard time finding foreign investors or getting loans from World Bank or IMF to finance their coal power projects and India run the risks of having large portion of its coal based assets being stranded in the future. Now even in China, senior leaders are advocating on pulling the plug on some coal fired power plants being planned and moving to renewable energy sources to avoid having stranded assets. Not a situation that India wants to be in.
And you run the risk of losing out the lead on these renewable technology. Look at China. China is mastering these wind, solar, and even nuclear technology to get ahead of the western world when it comes to energy. India will not be able to compete with China once China corners the nuts and bolts of every component of wind & solar technology. Stick with coal too long and you fall further behind unable to catch up.
There is no way around it. Better to take the pain now and master the renewable energy sector so as we grow our energy production, the pain is even less in the future. We master these technologies now and it will pay off in 10-20 years.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Can battery swapping power EVs for the long term in a cost-effective way?
The proposed battery swapping policy and interoperability standards for electric vehicles (EVs) announced by the finance minister in her Budget speech aims to address one of the biggest deterrents for EVs – the charging infrastructure. It is expected to reduce upfront costs and downtime and lead to a faster adoption of EVs. This is the first time that swapping as a technology solution for EVs has received recognition from policy makers.
The draft policy currently under formulation, however, will need to take into consideration a host of issues, ranging from accountability regarding safety of EVs, customer experience and the business interest of EV manufacturers.
Battery swapping or battery-as-a-service allows EV owners to replace the discharged batteries with charged ones at the swap stations. This will address the problem of setting up charging stations and also reduce drivers' anxiety over the range their EVs can cover (known as range anxiety). Further, battery leasing can help EV owners save the cost of purchasing a battery. The service is less time-consuming, taking only a few minutes compared to charging at a battery station, which could take hours. It also requires minimum infrastructure. Batteries account for close to 60 per cent of the cost for an e-two-wheeler.
“The proposed policy will certainly reduce costs and the downtime and lead to faster adoption of EVs. At the same time, it’s set to increase the operational complexities,” said Harshvardhan Sharma, head of automotive retail consulting at Nomura. It will work as long as the EV-makers have one or two variants. But as the number of variants increases, it would become difficult to maintain standardisation, he explained.
Also, given the fact that the battery will be used by those operating in the commercial segment as well as by personal EV owners, customer experience and performance may be compromised, he pointed out.
Anil Giri Raju, co-founder and chief operating officer, Bounce Infinity, a seven-year-old start-up that will be launching an e-scooter next month with a swappable battery, said, “The customers have to like the solution being offered by those in the service of swapping batteries. The companies will otherwise go out of business in no time. As a company that has one million swaps, we haven’t come across any complaints.”
At present, Bounce has over 200 swap stations operational in Bengaluru. The company is now setting up close to 2,000 additional stations across six cities in India. It has also partnered with nobroker, Park+ residents welfare associations malls and petrol bunks to build a swapping infrastructure for a million scooters in the next 12 months. “All the batteries in our fleet use premium cells; they are guaranteed by battery suppliers and come with a back-to-back warranty,” Raju said.
The Centre is likely to finalise the policy within the next two months, Reuters reported. The policy is likely to focus on battery swap services for three-wheeled auto rickshaws and two-wheelers such as electric scooters and motorcycles. Under the policy, EV owners may get incentives of up to 20 per cent on the subscription or lease cost of the battery. The incentives will be over and above those given for buying clean vehicles, the report said.
The battery swapping policy will not only boost the confidence of people to move faster to EVs because it will address the range anxiety, but it will also help in strengthening the EV ecosystem in the country and bring a standardisation process for battery, said Nagesh Basavanhalli, group CEO and MD, Greaves Cotton, which sells an e-scooter under the Ampere brand and e-three-wheelers.
“We will have to watch the on-ground implementation and penetration of swapping solutions and interoperability between different solution providers to understand the full potential impact of the policy,” said Basavanhalli.
Chetan Maini, chairman of Sun Mobility, one of the first companies to develop battery-swapping technology in India, said as the policy unfolds, it would be great to see the government addressing key points around how customers can access subsidies (currently available for EVs), range per charge criteria (as swap batteries, by definition, are smaller and with less range) and GST for swapping services in line with EVs. “It’s encouraging to see steps being taken on interoperability standards,” he said in a statement after the Budget. Sun Mobility’s battery swapping-powered EVs have travelled for over 13 million kilometres on Indian roads and this new policy is further going to accelerate its plans to onboard one million vehicles on its platform.
ut not everyone thinks swapping batteries is a practical solution. “Battery swapping is not plausible given the high costs of the battery and other issues,” said an official at an automobile firm. If a battery is the most expensive part of a vehicle, one would rather reduce the number of batteries and not vice-versa, he said pointing out that when one is swapping batteries, the number of batteries have to exceed the number of vehicles by some ratio as one will need one set to keep the vehicle running and a few sets for charging. Therefore, it’s not a capital-efficient solution, he said.
Even the policy think tank Niti Aayog believes that the limitations outweigh the benefits. It has flagged lack of standardisation among batteries, unsuitable battery pack design and a higher GST on separate batteries (18 per cent versus 5 per cent for EVs) as some of the prominent points. The need for a greater number of batteries to power the same number of EVs and slow adoption of charging by OEMs could be some other limitations.
Rajeev Singh, partner and automotive leader at Deloitte, pointed out that the technology solution comes with its own pros and cons. “It may hurt the OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) as the profit pool shrinks and moves to the battery service provider,” he said. When an EV-maker sells the model without a battery, the average selling price of the models will drop 40-45 per cent.
Bounce’s Raju disagrees. Manufacturers will be able to sell a lot more than what they are selling now and will benefit from a bigger scale, he said. E-two-wheelers account for only 1 per cent of India's 2-3 million per annum market. This will grow at a rapid pace when prices drop and swapping becomes popular. Today, with all the subsidies, the price of an e-scooter is Rs 100,000-plus, and it is more expensive than a conventional engine-powered scooter, he said. For faster adoption, an e-scooter has to be cheaper than a conventional scooter.
The proposed battery swapping policy and interoperability standards for electric vehicles (EVs) announced by the finance minister in her Budget speech aims to address one of the biggest deterrents for EVs – the charging infrastructure. It is expected to reduce upfront costs and downtime and lead to a faster adoption of EVs. This is the first time that swapping as a technology solution for EVs has received recognition from policy makers.
The draft policy currently under formulation, however, will need to take into consideration a host of issues, ranging from accountability regarding safety of EVs, customer experience and the business interest of EV manufacturers.
Battery swapping or battery-as-a-service allows EV owners to replace the discharged batteries with charged ones at the swap stations. This will address the problem of setting up charging stations and also reduce drivers' anxiety over the range their EVs can cover (known as range anxiety). Further, battery leasing can help EV owners save the cost of purchasing a battery. The service is less time-consuming, taking only a few minutes compared to charging at a battery station, which could take hours. It also requires minimum infrastructure. Batteries account for close to 60 per cent of the cost for an e-two-wheeler.
“The proposed policy will certainly reduce costs and the downtime and lead to faster adoption of EVs. At the same time, it’s set to increase the operational complexities,” said Harshvardhan Sharma, head of automotive retail consulting at Nomura. It will work as long as the EV-makers have one or two variants. But as the number of variants increases, it would become difficult to maintain standardisation, he explained.
Also, given the fact that the battery will be used by those operating in the commercial segment as well as by personal EV owners, customer experience and performance may be compromised, he pointed out.
Anil Giri Raju, co-founder and chief operating officer, Bounce Infinity, a seven-year-old start-up that will be launching an e-scooter next month with a swappable battery, said, “The customers have to like the solution being offered by those in the service of swapping batteries. The companies will otherwise go out of business in no time. As a company that has one million swaps, we haven’t come across any complaints.”
At present, Bounce has over 200 swap stations operational in Bengaluru. The company is now setting up close to 2,000 additional stations across six cities in India. It has also partnered with nobroker, Park+ residents welfare associations malls and petrol bunks to build a swapping infrastructure for a million scooters in the next 12 months. “All the batteries in our fleet use premium cells; they are guaranteed by battery suppliers and come with a back-to-back warranty,” Raju said.
The Centre is likely to finalise the policy within the next two months, Reuters reported. The policy is likely to focus on battery swap services for three-wheeled auto rickshaws and two-wheelers such as electric scooters and motorcycles. Under the policy, EV owners may get incentives of up to 20 per cent on the subscription or lease cost of the battery. The incentives will be over and above those given for buying clean vehicles, the report said.
The battery swapping policy will not only boost the confidence of people to move faster to EVs because it will address the range anxiety, but it will also help in strengthening the EV ecosystem in the country and bring a standardisation process for battery, said Nagesh Basavanhalli, group CEO and MD, Greaves Cotton, which sells an e-scooter under the Ampere brand and e-three-wheelers.
“We will have to watch the on-ground implementation and penetration of swapping solutions and interoperability between different solution providers to understand the full potential impact of the policy,” said Basavanhalli.
Chetan Maini, chairman of Sun Mobility, one of the first companies to develop battery-swapping technology in India, said as the policy unfolds, it would be great to see the government addressing key points around how customers can access subsidies (currently available for EVs), range per charge criteria (as swap batteries, by definition, are smaller and with less range) and GST for swapping services in line with EVs. “It’s encouraging to see steps being taken on interoperability standards,” he said in a statement after the Budget. Sun Mobility’s battery swapping-powered EVs have travelled for over 13 million kilometres on Indian roads and this new policy is further going to accelerate its plans to onboard one million vehicles on its platform.
ut not everyone thinks swapping batteries is a practical solution. “Battery swapping is not plausible given the high costs of the battery and other issues,” said an official at an automobile firm. If a battery is the most expensive part of a vehicle, one would rather reduce the number of batteries and not vice-versa, he said pointing out that when one is swapping batteries, the number of batteries have to exceed the number of vehicles by some ratio as one will need one set to keep the vehicle running and a few sets for charging. Therefore, it’s not a capital-efficient solution, he said.
Even the policy think tank Niti Aayog believes that the limitations outweigh the benefits. It has flagged lack of standardisation among batteries, unsuitable battery pack design and a higher GST on separate batteries (18 per cent versus 5 per cent for EVs) as some of the prominent points. The need for a greater number of batteries to power the same number of EVs and slow adoption of charging by OEMs could be some other limitations.
Rajeev Singh, partner and automotive leader at Deloitte, pointed out that the technology solution comes with its own pros and cons. “It may hurt the OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) as the profit pool shrinks and moves to the battery service provider,” he said. When an EV-maker sells the model without a battery, the average selling price of the models will drop 40-45 per cent.
Bounce’s Raju disagrees. Manufacturers will be able to sell a lot more than what they are selling now and will benefit from a bigger scale, he said. E-two-wheelers account for only 1 per cent of India's 2-3 million per annum market. This will grow at a rapid pace when prices drop and swapping becomes popular. Today, with all the subsidies, the price of an e-scooter is Rs 100,000-plus, and it is more expensive than a conventional engine-powered scooter, he said. For faster adoption, an e-scooter has to be cheaper than a conventional scooter.
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Mort Walker
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Guptaji,
No worries. In fact, I am forming a joint venture with other BRF members to convert old Airbus A380s to run on solar wind. You see, it is a combination of both solar and wind, a win win! Our A380 can make a round trip DEL-SFO in 24 hours using 400% efficient solar wind panels mounted on the wings and fuselage. There will be special concession rates for you and other BRF members - who emit so much hot air containing CH4 and CO2 that we can harness and convert it to provide more power to the aircraft to achieve even greater range. Or you can store it in our special BaRF bag balloons to use later in the new Chew-Tia battery charger system for your Tesla Model X or Porsche Taycan.
No worries. In fact, I am forming a joint venture with other BRF members to convert old Airbus A380s to run on solar wind. You see, it is a combination of both solar and wind, a win win! Our A380 can make a round trip DEL-SFO in 24 hours using 400% efficient solar wind panels mounted on the wings and fuselage. There will be special concession rates for you and other BRF members - who emit so much hot air containing CH4 and CO2 that we can harness and convert it to provide more power to the aircraft to achieve even greater range. Or you can store it in our special BaRF bag balloons to use later in the new Chew-Tia battery charger system for your Tesla Model X or Porsche Taycan.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Yes, Germany and the EU just spent a few 100 billion euros over a decade to end up with "net zero" energy (2-3%), so you can build all the cheap plants you want, and you can get a whole lot of "net zero"energy too.hgupta: Over a long term period, it is cheaper to build wind and solar power plants combined with energy storage solutions than to operate coal power plants and maintain them.
When appliances consume low power all these stunts of "net zero" energy may be feasible but not when the people in an average city turn on their TV sets at around the same time after dinner -- the peak power capacity required for that kind of load cannot be generated by your wind and solar plants. You need nuclear or coal power for that, not your "cheap wind and solar plants" in your little fantasy world.
Batteries and electrical technology require rare-earth metals for the magnetic components in Electric vehicles, and if the thinking is "rare-earth" is the new "oil", then who says that the political and commercial consequences of mining such metals is any better than nuclear power?
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Mort Walker
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
srikandan ji,
There are plenty of rare earth metals with our ally in Wakanda, where we can build super charged super strong batteries with Vibranium and Adamantium with energy density exceeding that of magad ke ladoo.
You must immediately stop promoting stranded assets!
There are plenty of rare earth metals with our ally in Wakanda, where we can build super charged super strong batteries with Vibranium and Adamantium with energy density exceeding that of magad ke ladoo.
You must immediately stop promoting stranded assets!
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Srikandan,
For peak power with renewable sources, you need energy storage solutions. And it doesn't have to be a battery based energy storage solution. It can be water based or gravity based solution or giant flywheel technology. And I never said that we shouldn't do nuclear. I am a big proponent of nuclear energy in order to meet our baseline needs. I believe that to meet its needs, India needs to build at least 250 nuclear power plants over the next 30-50 years (average size would be 2.2GW reactor) preferably with thorium (if we haven't mastered fusion technology at that point) but we are a long way off. But we also need wind and solar plants in order to scale up and down to meet our electricity needs at the local level. The problem with the nuclear reactors is that they are difficult to scale up and down at any given moment. It takes more than several hours for the nuclear reactor to scale down or up and doing that too much will wreak havoc on the electrical grid. Wind and solar combined with energy storage solutions at the local level are a great way of doing that economically without wreaking havoc on the electrical grid. In fact, the more you have energy storage plants, the better you are off in managing the fluctuations of the power grid and avoiding rolling blackouts. Coal cannot do that and it also cannot beat nuclear in terms of baseline power. Therefore, I just do not see a place for coal at all. Coal is obsolete. I view coal in the same way people started viewing whale oil in the 1880s as petroleum products took off - whaling oil became obsolete. Once we figure out the energy storage technology on a 5-10 GWh level in an economically feasible manner, natural gas will be on its way out because they will not be able to compete financially with wind & solar power coupled with energy storage plants.
I never really agreed with Germany's decision to phase out the nuclear reactors. I look at France's energy sector instead. Look at its sector. Over 70% of its electrical needs are met by nuclear and 21% are met with renewable sources and the rest (7.1%) are through various fossil fuel sources. Only less than 1/6 of that fossil fuel sources is coal, like 3000 MW out of 135 GW. At 2.2% of the entire electrical sector, coal is practically nonexistent in France and France export electricity to other countries. That is the model that India should be going for.
As for living in a fantasy land, you are gonna have to talk to Mort Walker as judging from his last couple nonsensical posts, he has plenty of experience with!
You know what its really funny? You guys think that I am living in a la la land for advocating renewable energy technology when you got two of the biggest billionaires, Ambani and Adani, looking to divest their porfolio of fossil fuel and moving into renewable energy/green technology. Even though they made their billions in fossil fuels, they are basically betting that the future lies in renewable energy, not in fossil fuel and they are competing with each other to be the biggest in renewable energy. So I dare you guys to tell them directly to their faces that they are living in a fantasy land. My guess? You wont get that far.
For peak power with renewable sources, you need energy storage solutions. And it doesn't have to be a battery based energy storage solution. It can be water based or gravity based solution or giant flywheel technology. And I never said that we shouldn't do nuclear. I am a big proponent of nuclear energy in order to meet our baseline needs. I believe that to meet its needs, India needs to build at least 250 nuclear power plants over the next 30-50 years (average size would be 2.2GW reactor) preferably with thorium (if we haven't mastered fusion technology at that point) but we are a long way off. But we also need wind and solar plants in order to scale up and down to meet our electricity needs at the local level. The problem with the nuclear reactors is that they are difficult to scale up and down at any given moment. It takes more than several hours for the nuclear reactor to scale down or up and doing that too much will wreak havoc on the electrical grid. Wind and solar combined with energy storage solutions at the local level are a great way of doing that economically without wreaking havoc on the electrical grid. In fact, the more you have energy storage plants, the better you are off in managing the fluctuations of the power grid and avoiding rolling blackouts. Coal cannot do that and it also cannot beat nuclear in terms of baseline power. Therefore, I just do not see a place for coal at all. Coal is obsolete. I view coal in the same way people started viewing whale oil in the 1880s as petroleum products took off - whaling oil became obsolete. Once we figure out the energy storage technology on a 5-10 GWh level in an economically feasible manner, natural gas will be on its way out because they will not be able to compete financially with wind & solar power coupled with energy storage plants.
I never really agreed with Germany's decision to phase out the nuclear reactors. I look at France's energy sector instead. Look at its sector. Over 70% of its electrical needs are met by nuclear and 21% are met with renewable sources and the rest (7.1%) are through various fossil fuel sources. Only less than 1/6 of that fossil fuel sources is coal, like 3000 MW out of 135 GW. At 2.2% of the entire electrical sector, coal is practically nonexistent in France and France export electricity to other countries. That is the model that India should be going for.
As for living in a fantasy land, you are gonna have to talk to Mort Walker as judging from his last couple nonsensical posts, he has plenty of experience with!
You know what its really funny? You guys think that I am living in a la la land for advocating renewable energy technology when you got two of the biggest billionaires, Ambani and Adani, looking to divest their porfolio of fossil fuel and moving into renewable energy/green technology. Even though they made their billions in fossil fuels, they are basically betting that the future lies in renewable energy, not in fossil fuel and they are competing with each other to be the biggest in renewable energy. So I dare you guys to tell them directly to their faces that they are living in a fantasy land. My guess? You wont get that far.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Mod Note
This thread is going off track. Please avoid earning a reprimand. It's entirely fine to not offer an opinion until you've had a chance to evaluate a problem from multiple directions. It's also entirely fine to ignore someone who's obviously trolling - just report the post and move on. If you feel compelled to hit back in return, you're probably taking the thread off track with you.
All this stuff about slapping each other with 1000% taxes and solar A380s is derailment. For moderation we don't care about who started it - the primary goal of moderation is to keep a thread on track, not conduct a quasi-legal investigation into fault. It's like getting into a street brawl - it doesn't matter after a point who started it.
Please just stop.
This thread is going off track. Please avoid earning a reprimand. It's entirely fine to not offer an opinion until you've had a chance to evaluate a problem from multiple directions. It's also entirely fine to ignore someone who's obviously trolling - just report the post and move on. If you feel compelled to hit back in return, you're probably taking the thread off track with you.
All this stuff about slapping each other with 1000% taxes and solar A380s is derailment. For moderation we don't care about who started it - the primary goal of moderation is to keep a thread on track, not conduct a quasi-legal investigation into fault. It's like getting into a street brawl - it doesn't matter after a point who started it.
Please just stop.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
hgupta ji,
could you please give the details of of storing energy either as potential energy or kinetic energy? it would be nice of you include references to engineering, technology, and efficiency of round tripping. also don't forget embodied energy calculations for cradle to cradle.
don't forget that we have to use coal to make these gizmos in numbers, fossil fuel to tars port and commission them.
also include environmental impact whil ethey are operational.
you know, these kinds of nitty gritties.
could you please give the details of of storing energy either as potential energy or kinetic energy? it would be nice of you include references to engineering, technology, and efficiency of round tripping. also don't forget embodied energy calculations for cradle to cradle.
don't forget that we have to use coal to make these gizmos in numbers, fossil fuel to tars port and commission them.
also include environmental impact whil ethey are operational.
you know, these kinds of nitty gritties.
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Mort Walker
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- Location: The rings around Uranus.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Right now hydroelectric systems are the most viable for storing energy. Existing hydroelectric is being used in India, so it isn't viable and puts most of the power near high elevation areas. It may work in certain regions, but not consistently across India. Large scale utility level battery storage systems are in the development, but these are really meant for island areas where transporting energy in gas, diesel and coal is expensive and time consuming. I could see A&N islands or Lakshadweep having utility level battery storage systems by 2030.
What is currently happening in India is that the energy pie is becoming larger, therefore we will see great strides in nameplate power values for RES, but the percentage of actual energy generated is coming from coal. Solar power is taking care of peak demand during the day, in the night it is falling back to coal which is also making the base load. Personally, I would prefer that the base load switch to nuclear by 2030 and RES for peak load. However, that is going very slow due to economics. Coal imports are declining and more domestic coal is being produced and shipped by trains running on electric power, so transportation cost within India is low. Coal demand is about 900 MMT for the country and in a couple of years production will increase to over 1 BMT. Last year was slow due to covid, but demand is now picking back up.
Coal power has kept India from having blackouts. Only in third world pooping hell holes like California do people experience rolling blackouts.
What is currently happening in India is that the energy pie is becoming larger, therefore we will see great strides in nameplate power values for RES, but the percentage of actual energy generated is coming from coal. Solar power is taking care of peak demand during the day, in the night it is falling back to coal which is also making the base load. Personally, I would prefer that the base load switch to nuclear by 2030 and RES for peak load. However, that is going very slow due to economics. Coal imports are declining and more domestic coal is being produced and shipped by trains running on electric power, so transportation cost within India is low. Coal demand is about 900 MMT for the country and in a couple of years production will increase to over 1 BMT. Last year was slow due to covid, but demand is now picking back up.
Coal power has kept India from having blackouts. Only in third world pooping hell holes like California do people experience rolling blackouts.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
@Mort, could something like Bloom Energy's fuel cell platform work for storage. As in, use RES during the day to generate gas that is then consumed during the night to produce electricity.
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Mort Walker
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
I'm not familiar with their fuel cell platform which uses solar or wind to generate gas. If it did generate gas, you've got to burn it in a thermal power plant to run a turbine at best 40% efficiency or use a hydrogen fuel cell that can take CH4 as input and generate high current flow with higher efficiencies. It all comes down to cost and how you can do it at utility scale to generate at least 100 MW if not 4 to 5 times that. Most of these applications are ideal in remote areas, they simply aren't cost efficient at utility scale which is what is needed. They might be in 15 years, but more likely in 25 years.vera_k wrote:@Mort, could something like Bloom Energy's fuel cell platform work for storage. As in, use RES during the day to generate gas that is then consumed during the night to produce electricity.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
https://www.techbriefs.com/component/co ... asts/40822
I don't remember whether I posted it or not. Very interesting storage technology (idea?) for storing offshore wind power and smooth the flow into the grid.
I don't remember whether I posted it or not. Very interesting storage technology (idea?) for storing offshore wind power and smooth the flow into the grid.
Here's an Idea: How to Build an 'Ocean Battery'
Dr. Frits Bliek and his team at Ocean Grazer are building an "Ocean Battery" that brings hydrodam technology to the sea.
...
How Does the Ocean Battery Work?
The battery pumps water from underground reservoirs into flexible bladders, just above the seabed. When there is a demand for power, the water, pressurized by the sea, is routed through hydroturbines in the tube to generate electricity.
See a video below of the Ocean Battery in action.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
https://www.emerson.com/en-us/commercia ... ind2energy
I have seen this being used at the dorms in my university town.
I have seen this being used at the dorms in my university town.
The only full-circle, closed-loop food waste recycling system of its kind.
Grind2Energy is helping food waste generators transform inedible food scraps into energy. Here’s how it works.
- Organic food waste is collected and placed into the grind chamber.
- Grind2Energy grinds food waste quickly and efficiently.
- The resulting slurry goes into a holding tank.
- A liquid waste hauler transports the slurry to a local anaerobic digestion (AD) facility.
- The AD facility recycles the food slurry by recovering water and converting captured methane into renewable energy
- including electricity and compressed natural gas.
- The remaining nutrient-rich organic material can be used as a beneficial natural fertilizer.
- The natural nutrient-rich fertilizer is utilized to grow more food.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
https://www.emerson.com/en-us/commercia ... te-problem
Here is the extent of the problem in the US. India wouldn't be far behind, I am sure.
Here is the extent of the problem in the US. India wouldn't be far behind, I am sure.
Food Waste in America
Food waste is a growing problem in the United States. According to the U.S. EPA, food waste is the 2nd largest contributor to landfills. More than 28 million tons of food waste is sent to landfills each year.
When food goes to the landfill, it’s like tying food in a plastic bag – the nutrients in the food never return to the soil. The wasted food rots and produces methane gas, a potent greenhouse gas with more than 25 times the global warming potential compared to carbon dioxide.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
CAES - Compressed Air Energy Storage. Another alternative to battery.
https://saurorja.org/2012/06/18/compres ... fficiency/
https://saurorja.org/2012/06/18/compres ... fficiency/
Read it all in the blog post.The basic operating principle behind Compressed Air Energy Storage (CAES) is extremely simple. Energy is supplied to compress air, and when energy is required this compressed air is allowed to expand through some expansion turbines. But, as and when we approach this simple theory, it starts becoming more complex because of the thermodynamics involved.
Air gets heated up when it is compressed. This could be easily seen had you ever used a bicycle pump. Depending upon how air is compressed, it could be broadly classified according to two thermodynamic processes, Adiabatic and Isothermal.
...
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
From Geind2Energy of Emerson, this is an interesting statistic.
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Rishirishi
- BRFite
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- Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
32AMP is way to small. Tesla charges with 150 Kwh, which enable battery to charge up to 200KM in less then 15 min (yes it depends on the battery, the charged% etc, but that is another discussion). I think 250Kwh chargers are on the drawing board. Having 10 of those will be 2,5MWh. This is not cottage Industry. There are very strict quality requirements here.2cr for a charging station is an atrociously high amount of money - all you need is a 32AMP circuit and a charger for a small one - it can be a cottage industry almost! even a cost of 50K USD - which is pretty high - works to like 40 Lakhs. Why 2 crores !!!!
The ICE lobby is planting all sorts of false propaganda against EV, but facts speak for them self.
For those who think EV's are for hashish smokers. Read about the VW (worlds largest car manufacturer) EV plans https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/20 ... n-of-.html
Last edited by Rishirishi on 13 Feb 2022 06:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Rishirishi
- BRFite
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
Mort Walker wrote:Right now hydroelectric systems are the most viable for storing energy. Existing hydroelectric is being used in India, so it isn't viable and puts most of the power near high elevation areas. It may work in certain regions, but not consistently across India. Large scale utility level battery storage systems are in the development, but these are really meant for island areas where transporting energy in gas, diesel and coal is expensive and time consuming. I could see A&N islands or Lakshadweep having utility level battery storage systems by 2030.
What is currently happening in India is that the energy pie is becoming larger, therefore we will see great strides in nameplate power values for RES, but the percentage of actual energy generated is coming from coal. Solar power is taking care of peak demand during the day, in the night it is falling back to coal which is also making the base load. Personally, I would prefer that the base load switch to nuclear by 2030 and RES for peak load. However, that is going very slow due to economics. Coal imports are declining and more domestic coal is being produced and shipped by trains running on electric power, so transportation cost within India is low. Coal demand is about 900 MMT for the country and in a couple of years production will increase to over 1 BMT. Last year was slow due to covid, but demand is now picking back up.
Coal power has kept India from having blackouts. Only in third world pooping hell holes like California do people experience rolling blackouts.
Here is some further reading on Pumped Hydro storage.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... ro-storage
https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes ... e/84178059Although PHS dominates the global storage-capacity scene, its growth in India ha ..
Read more at:
https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes ... e/84178059
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Mort Walker
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
EVs are for people who have more money than sense or early adopters. Until solid state batteries come about and prices drop, they won't make a difference. EVs represent less than 1% of the market in India. In the US, including hybrids of all types, they are 4% of market. The only way possible is by government mandates which won't work in many countries.
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Mort Walker
- BRF Oldie
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
LED light bulbs have been a boondoggle too. Since power is AC, they need a rectifying circuit. Many times the cheap ones from China have SCRs which fail if there is even slight voltage fluctuation.Vayutuvan wrote:From Geind2Energy of Emerson, this is an interesting statistic.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
that explains why LED bulbs in my home keep going caput.
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
India has been using this fancy cutting edge technology since over half a century under the unsophisticated desi name "bio gas plant"Vayutuvan wrote:https://www.emerson.com/en-us/commercia ... ind2energy
I have seen this being used at the dorms in my university town.The only full-circle, closed-loop food waste recycling system of its kind.
Grind2Energy is helping food waste generators transform inedible food scraps into energy. Here’s how it works.
And I'm sure they do 95% as good for under 5% of the cost.Elsewhere, domestic organic waste is typically burnt in a furnace and the heat generated is used for piped urban heating or power generation. Been around for decades. Not sure what exactly is a breakthrough here...
Re: Electric vehicle and power storage
The problem with food wastage is not just nutrients in it returning to the soil, but the wastage of all the energy, pesticides, fertilisers, machines, plastics etc. that has been used from farm to shelf to home dustbin. Its downright CRIMINAL if you think about it. Extracting methane and decomposing the rest responsibly is of course good, but its a fraction of all that went into the food life cycle upto that point.Food Waste in America
Food waste is a growing problem in the United States. According to the U.S. EPA, food waste is the 2nd largest contributor to landfills. More than 28 million tons of food waste is sent to landfills each year.
When food goes to the landfill, it’s like tying food in a plastic bag – the nutrients in the food never return to the soil. The wasted food rots and produces methane gas, a potent greenhouse gas with more than 25 times the global warming potential compared to carbon dioxide.
The best solution is to recognise "Annam para brahma swaroopam" and avoid wastage as much as possible, consciously, with religious zeal. In every home. And eatery. Sadly India is going the west way with increasing prosperity.
France has implemented an "Anti Wastage Law". Read about it here, its in English. A good step in the right direction.
https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/sites/defa ... %20PJL.pdf