Electric vehicle and power storage

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Gyan » 16 Jun 2020 11:11

1. If OPEC keeps making cuts while non OPEC production grows, then Cartel weakens. I already posted a Report of BP about their price projections. This means that Indian imports will be USD 50-75 Billion per Annum instead of USD 100-125, of crude Oil.

2. Apart from China, nations like South Korea, EU, Japan, USA are setting up massive Cell factories. Musk is talking about Tera Watt factory in USA.

3. Indian present & projected investment in Cell manufacturing is NIL.

4 Therefore India will only get side effect benefits of EV Revolution as we have no manufacturing in Cell area.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 16 Jun 2020 11:19


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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Raveen » 16 Jun 2020 23:49

Gyan wrote:1. If OPEC keeps making cuts while non OPEC production grows, then Cartel weakens. I already posted a Report of BP about their price projections. This means that Indian imports will be USD 50-75 Billion per Annum instead of USD 100-125, of crude Oil.

2. Apart from China, nations like South Korea, EU, Japan, USA are setting up massive Cell factories. Musk is talking about Tera Watt factory in USA.

3. Indian present & projected investment in Cell manufacturing is NIL.

4 Therefore India will only get side effect benefits of EV Revolution as we have no manufacturing in Cell area.



So even if the revolution comes, we will send our money to China instead of the OPEC - is that the great future everyone wishes for?

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 22 Jun 2020 03:48

Raveen wrote:
Gyan wrote:1. If OPEC keeps making cuts while non OPEC production grows, then Cartel weakens. I already posted a Report of BP about their price projections. This means that Indian imports will be USD 50-75 Billion per Annum instead of USD 100-125, of crude Oil.

2. Apart from China, nations like South Korea, EU, Japan, USA are setting up massive Cell factories. Musk is talking about Tera Watt factory in USA.

3. Indian present & projected investment in Cell manufacturing is NIL.

4 Therefore India will only get side effect benefits of EV Revolution as we have no manufacturing in Cell area.



So even if the revolution comes, we will send our money to China instead of the OPEC - is that the great future everyone wishes for?


India needs to speed up the investment policy for battery ASAP. I say put a 10% duty of fuel and ICE cars to kickstart the process.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Raveen » 22 Jun 2020 07:37

Rishirishi wrote:
Raveen wrote:

So even if the revolution comes, we will send our money to China instead of the OPEC - is that the great future everyone wishes for?


India needs to speed up the investment policy for battery ASAP. I say put a 10% duty of fuel and ICE cars to kickstart the process.


:rotfl:
Self-fulfilling prophecy? Make the competition expensive, oh and sink billions in making batteries while you're at it...continue to funnel money to China for Li in the meanwhile while you fight a way against them.

At least you are never directly at war with Iran, UAE, and other oil suppliers....only indirectly

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Jun 2020 10:13

Rishirishi wrote:
India needs to speed up the investment policy for battery ASAP. I say put a 10% duty of fuel and ICE cars to kickstart the process.


Fuel and alcohol should fall under GST, but everyone in the center and states want the revenue, so there all sorts of excuses to tax it. Fuel taxes in India are already inflated beyond any rationale and an additional 10% duty won't do anything to reduce demand. A GST is already applied to all vehicles regardless of what sort engine they have. What RES jihadis don't realize is that putting more taxes on any type of vehicle kills the economy, but I guess they're the same sort of people who cheer the Chinese when they kill Indians and invade the country.

Auto manufacturing creates huge employment and industrial base for India, and in fact, there is some discussion about reducing the slab on vehicles.

A GST cut can put auto sales on fast track to revival

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 24 Jun 2020 05:08

Mort Walker wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:
India needs to speed up the investment policy for battery ASAP. I say put a 10% duty of fuel and ICE cars to kickstart the process.


Fuel and alcohol should fall under GST, but everyone in the center and states want the revenue, so there all sorts of excuses to tax it. Fuel taxes in India are already inflated beyond any rationale and an additional 10% duty won't do anything to reduce demand. A GST is already applied to all vehicles regardless of what sort engine they have. What RES jihadis don't realize is that putting more taxes on any type of vehicle kills the economy, but I guess they're the same sort of people who cheer the Chinese when they kill Indians and invade the country.

Auto manufacturing creates huge employment and industrial base for India, and in fact, there is some discussion about reducing the slab on vehicles.

A GST cut can put auto sales on fast track to revival


Taxes never killed any economy. Scandinavian countries are the best to live in and they have the highest taxation in the world. People are forced to purchase cars, because the public transport is pathetic.

If they put a tax of Rs 50 000K per month for driving cars in Mumbai, the buses would move faster and probably could solve the transport issue in the city. If 300 000 people opt to have have a cars, the government would be able to spend Rs 18 000 crores per year, on transforming the city into something decent.

Bear in mind that over 85% of people use the public transport in Mumbai. Cars are only used by 15% but create road jams.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Jun 2020 10:48

Rishirishi wrote:
Taxes never killed any economy. Scandinavian countries are the best to live in and they have the highest taxation in the world. People are forced to purchase cars, because the public transport is pathetic.

If they put a tax of Rs 50 000K per month for driving cars in Mumbai, the buses would move faster and probably could solve the transport issue in the city. If 300 000 people opt to have have a cars, the government would be able to spend Rs 18 000 crores per year, on transforming the city into something decent.

Bear in mind that over 85% of people use the public transport in Mumbai. Cars are only used by 15% but create road jams.


More idiotic ideas which you've never thought through. Taxes kill investment and growth by private entities that create employment and wealth in a country. Governments are not the driver of growth, people are. The Scandinavian countries look good statistically because they are very small geographically and demographically. For decades they've had anemic growth. No thank you. Maybe you can move there and enjoy the balmy winters.

People purchase cars not only for commuting, but a sense of independence to go somewhere where they aren't immediately dependent on someone else. India is a big country geographically. It is larger than western Europe. If I live in western MH, I should be able to get in my car or SUV with family and be able to visit relatives in Noida or Hyderabad whenever I want to go. Linking states by highway and road brings national unity within India. It is a big plus. A well developed road network will allow people to live outside of congested cities where economic growth will be more uniformly distributed. In this day and age of terrorism, pandemics and potential for a foreign adversary like China or TSP to strike a city center, better to move to 2nd and 3rd tier cities where there is a good road network.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 27 Jun 2020 05:30

More idiotic ideas which you've never thought through. Taxes kill investment and growth by private entities that create employment and wealth in a country. Governments are not the driver of growth, people are. The Scandinavian countries look good statistically because they are very small geographically and demographically. For decades they've had anemic growth. No thank you. Maybe you can move there and enjoy the balmy winters.


Do you have any facts to back up your claims of low taxation being driver of growth ?

I go by the facts.

List of taxed countries. Where would you live?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio

Now do a correlation between taxation and innovation by country.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/world-most-innovative-economies/

Start digging into real data and get your facts right.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Vayutuvan » 27 Jun 2020 11:42

"balmy winters" :rotfl:

Norway has a trillion dollar fund. Sweden and Finland both have huge amounts of natural resources yet each of their population sis is about the same as Pune.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby M_Joshi » 27 Jun 2020 13:04

Mort Walker wrote:
Raveen wrote:

And China is laughing as you plan your future on their Li


This is correct. Low battery prices are predicated on Chinese production and even solar power low tariffs are dependent on Chinese panels. It is part of the reason why China is willing to negotiate with India, aside from the Global Times rhetoric, because they see India's needs.


If we replace oil imports from ME by battery imports from China then it doesn't make any sense. Infact it's worse. India needs to be self sufficient in Li battery manufacturing. Otherwise it's better to keep importing oil rather than filling China's coffers.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 28 Jun 2020 01:03

Rishirishi wrote:
More idiotic ideas which you've never thought through. Taxes kill investment and growth by private entities that create employment and wealth in a country. Governments are not the driver of growth, people are. The Scandinavian countries look good statistically because they are very small geographically and demographically. For decades they've had anemic growth. No thank you. Maybe you can move there and enjoy the balmy winters.


Do you have any facts to back up your claims of low taxation being driver of growth ?

I go by the facts.

List of taxed countries. Where would you live?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio

Now do a correlation between taxation and innovation by country.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/world-most-innovative-economies/

Start digging into real data and get your facts right.



Go take a look at GST collections percentage increase and correlating it to lower production and growth. There's your proof.
GoI Press Release

Image
This is at a time when oil prices have been low.

Nice of you to switch goal posts from taxes to innovation. You constantly post nonsense ideas without any basis in reality. Innovation is not a function of taxes, but the ability of industry and academia to have adequate capital. The tax rate in India is high, but overall tax collection is low for a number of reasons. In India the GST taxes production whereas income should be taxed. I was never a fan of the GST, and now India is paying a price of low growth.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 28 Jun 2020 05:43

Nice of you to switch goal posts from taxes to innovation. You constantly post nonsense ideas without any basis in reality. Innovation is not a function of taxes, but the ability of industry and academia to have adequate capital. The tax rate in India is high, but overall tax collection is low for a number of reasons. In India the GST taxes production whereas income should be taxed. I was never a fan of the GST, and now India is paying a price of low growth.


Again you indulge in derogatory language, seems you totally lack the ability to argue your case with facts.

1. GST replaced taxes, the overall increase was marginal (if any)
2 Why was there a pickup in GDP? just after the implementation of GST
3 The main idea with GST is to simplify, not to increase taxes.
4 on the greatest drivers of growth is innovation. Hence the interest to look at innovation.
5 If you do take some time to learn about how to calculate you will find that countries with high taxes has, better equality, better infrastructure, better public services, more innovation, less crime and more inclusive growth.

Now the more intellectual part, which may be a bit difficult for you to understand.

GDP growth's comes from demand. The more the demand the more the growth. Now some people are misled to think that if you let the people/business keep their money, they will purchase stuff/invest and create demand. This was the thinking behind the 80's liberalization. And to a certain extent it was true. However we observe a few outcomes. Let us take US as an example.

-The financial crises was created due to liberalization of financial markets.
-The economy in US has grown, but the middle class has shrunk. Poverty is on rise.
-wealth is being centered around the top 1%
-Professionals with high disposable income choose to invest a significant portion in stock, rather then purchase goods and services.
-Surplus profits do not go towards new investments but are handed out as dividends.
-Money is chasing good projects. There is basically oversupply of money and people do not know what to invest in.

Now taxation.
We see that countries with the best standard of living (Scandinavia, Germany, Netherlands) have high taxation. Taxation allows governments to create DEMAND for public services and infrastructure. The us government is actually taxing people to ignite growth. They call quantitative measure (basically printing money) .

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 28 Jun 2020 06:49

Rishirishi wrote:
Nice of you to switch goal posts from taxes to innovation. You constantly post nonsense ideas without any basis in reality. Innovation is not a function of taxes, but the ability of industry and academia to have adequate capital. The tax rate in India is high, but overall tax collection is low for a number of reasons. In India the GST taxes production whereas income should be taxed. I was never a fan of the GST, and now India is paying a price of low growth.


Again you indulge in derogatory language, seems you totally lack the ability to argue your case with facts.

1. GST replaced taxes, the overall increase was marginal (if any)
2 Why was there a pickup in GDP? just after the implementation of GST
3 The main idea with GST is to simplify, not to increase taxes.
4 on the greatest drivers of growth is innovation. Hence the interest to look at innovation.
5 If you do take some time to learn about how to calculate you will find that countries with high taxes has, better equality, better infrastructure, better public services, more innovation, less crime and more inclusive growth.

To call you out on bullsh!t seem derogatory only to you. You're always proposing all sorts of nonsense taxation ideas and battery fantasies in all threads.

1. GST replaced a myriad of duties, excise, VAT and interstate taxes. It was supposed to be on all goods, but two big ones were left out - fuel and alcohol. In essence a bunch of bad tax systems were replaced by one bad system. The advantage is that it will be much easier to overhaul that bad system.
2. The pickup in GDP occurred because of the myriad of taxes went away, but SMEs were bitten by paying upfront taxes, then even larger industries were caught up in upfront payment and credit. It's been a drag on the economy any way you look at. It needs overhaul and there's enough time to do that.
3. GST simplified taxes, but its implementation is haphazard as witnessed by the GST network.
4. Innovation of IT related industries does not employ the vast masses of people with limited educational opportunities. To move to a $10K per capita GDP, manufacturing must come first, followed by innovation. India hasn't completed the first step and attempting to leap frog that will leave many people behind.
5. Countries with high taxes have lower growth. Instead of trying to get a bigger piece of the pie, it is advisable to make that pie bigger.


Now the more intellectual part, which may be a bit difficult for you to understand.

GDP growth's comes from demand. The more the demand the more the growth. Now some people are misled to think that if you let the people/business keep their money, they will purchase stuff/invest and create demand. This was the thinking behind the 80's liberalization. And to a certain extent it was true. However we observe a few outcomes. Let us take US as an example.

-The financial crises was created due to liberalization of financial markets.
-The economy in US has grown, but the middle class has shrunk. Poverty is on rise.
-wealth is being centered around the top 1%
-Professionals with high disposable income choose to invest a significant portion in stock, rather then purchase goods and services.
-Surplus profits do not go towards new investments but are handed out as dividends.
-Money is chasing good projects. There is basically oversupply of money and people do not know what to invest in.

Demand can only come if the public has income and savings. If you pay for higher prices from GST and an income tax, you're suffering from dual taxation. The combined tax burden lowers growth. Your crazy ideas of imposing further taxes on fuel are nuts.

- The US financial crisis was caused by the selling of bogus mortgage backed securities coupled with poor loan underwriting and repeal of banking standards.
- The US economy has grown, but also the disparity in income because the masses of lower educated workers could not be absorbed in non-manufacturing industries. Poverty rates as a whole have not increased in the US, in fact they have declined in the last 5 years or so.
- I do agree there is too much money in the hands of too few, but increasing taxes will take that money offshore. Rather, those industries need to be regulated further. Pharmaceuticals and healthcare are notorious for that.


Now taxation.
We see that countries with the best standard of living (Scandinavia, Germany, Netherlands) have high taxation. Taxation allows governments to create DEMAND for public services and infrastructure. The us government is actually taxing people to ignite growth. They call quantitative measure (basically printing money) .

The northern Scandinavian countries are working with much smaller populations and their growth rates are anemic. They are a BAD example for India. The US dollar is the international currency and can get away with printing money for the next 30 years.



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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 25 Oct 2020 08:09

UBS Bank predict end of oil-based vehicles within 2-3 years

The extra cost of manufacturing battery electric cars versus their fossil fuel equivalents will diminish to just $1,900 (£1,470) per car by 2022, and disappear completely by 2024, according to research by the investment bank UBS. The research is based on detailed analysis of batteries from the seven largest manufacturers.


UBS said it expected battery costs to drop to below $100 per kilowatt hour (kWh), a key milestone, by 2022.





https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/21/electric-cars-as-cheap-to-manufacture-as-regular-models-by-2024

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby KL Dubey » 25 Oct 2020 21:22

Rishirishi wrote:UBS Bank predict end of oil-based vehicles within 2-3 years


There is no doubt that traditional gasoline pulled out from the ground is unsustainable.

- Full battery EVs (BEVs) are one alternative.
- HEVs, or in the future even ICEs powered by renewable gasoline, are the other option.

Both BEVs and HEVs probably will grow in the next decade.

There are a few things to consider here, especially for India:

- China. Just like in solar power, the transition to batteries must be decoupled from Chinese suppliers. Growing a few hybrid battery manufacturers in India may be a better initial solution to get the infrastructure and experience in place.

- Sustainability and electricity sources. BEVs would be ultimately preferred if they can satisfy the sustainability requirements (environmental impacts of production) and are powered with renewable electricity (not coal/gas).

- The news article is low on specifics. It is unclear whether the lower cost of manufacturing the battery is just the "China" factor, or a real breakthrough in using lower cost/easily recyclable metals and materials and new manufacturing advances that allow packing more capacity into the same volume and weight of battery.

- It is not just the cost of the car. IIRC, in the US, driving a compact ICE costs roughly 10 cents/mile in fuel cost and a compact BEV costs about 3 cents/mile. For a 10,000 mile/yr driver, it works out to a yearly savings of $700. Even if the upfront costs are the same for both, it is not clear if that will tip the balance....there are many other factors:

* Liquid fuels have a huge distribution network (gas stations, etc) available. Setting up charging infrastructure on a massive scale is expensive. Using the charging stations carries a fee (right now, something like $500/year ?). Maybe renewable gasoline and diesel have an advantage there, the distribution network can still be used. The large oil and gas companies are all building/planning to build biofuel refineries.

* Filling up at a gas station takes two minutes and can be done anytime. Charging a BEV is either at night, or in your office parking lot if you are lucky to have that infrastructure). Charging a battery for a short trip "on the go" requires a lunch break. The inconvenience of restructuring your life around your BEV is unacceptable to a lot of people.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby NRao » 25 Oct 2020 22:09

June 18, 2019 :: Boom Supersonic Partners with Prometheus Fuels to Supply Carbon Neutral Fuel for XB-1

Boom has rolled out a prototype XB-1 (Oct 7, 2020 :: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kraWrYS6CsE). I believe it runs on this Carbon Neutral Fuel

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 26 Oct 2020 04:23

KL Dubey wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:UBS Bank predict end of oil-based vehicles within 2-3 years


There is no doubt that traditional gasoline pulled out from the ground is unsustainable.

- Full battery EVs (BEVs) are one alternative.
- HEVs, or in the future even ICEs powered by renewable gasoline, are the other option.

Both BEVs and HEVs probably will grow in the next decade.

There are a few things to consider here, especially for India:

- China. Just like in solar power, the transition to batteries must be decoupled from Chinese suppliers. Growing a few hybrid battery manufacturers in India may be a better initial solution to get the infrastructure and experience in place.

- Sustainability and electricity sources. BEVs would be ultimately preferred if they can satisfy the sustainability requirements (environmental impacts of production) and are powered with renewable electricity (not coal/gas).

- The news article is low on specifics. It is unclear whether the lower cost of manufacturing the battery is just the "China" factor, or a real breakthrough in using lower cost/easily recyclable metals and materials and new manufacturing advances that allow packing more capacity into the same volume and weight of battery.

- It is not just the cost of the car. IIRC, in the US, driving a compact ICE costs roughly 10 cents/mile in fuel cost and a compact BEV costs about 3 cents/mile. For a 10,000 mile/yr driver, it works out to a yearly savings of $700. Even if the upfront costs are the same for both, it is not clear if that will tip the balance....there are many other factors:

* Liquid fuels have a huge distribution network (gas stations, etc) available. Setting up charging infrastructure on a massive scale is expensive. Using the charging stations carries a fee (right now, something like $500/year ?). Maybe renewable gasoline and diesel have an advantage there, the distribution network can still be used. The large oil and gas companies are all building/planning to build biofuel refineries.

* Filling up at a gas station takes two minutes and can be done anytime. Charging a BEV is either at night, or in your office parking lot if you are lucky to have that infrastructure). Charging a battery for a short trip "on the go" requires a lunch break. The inconvenience of restructuring your life around your BEV is unacceptable to a lot of people.



BEV fall in prices are not exclusively due to the "China factor". There are several Battery firms that are contributing to the fall in prices. Gigafactories are popin up all over EU and elsewhere. Fall in prices are due to advancement in technology and economies of scale.

BEV has several advantages over the others. The greatest is perhaps the fantastic driving experience and reliability. No transmission, no radiators, silensors, pistons, and the hundreds of other moving parts. Only an electric motor and a battery. It is just fantastic to drive.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby KL Dubey » 26 Oct 2020 07:36

Rishirishi wrote:BEV fall in prices are not exclusively due to the "China factor". There are several Battery firms that are contributing to the fall in prices. Gigafactories are popin up all over EU and elsewhere. Fall in prices are due to advancement in technology and economies of scale.


I am aware of some of that. My comment was in context of India.

BEV has several advantages over the others. The greatest is perhaps the fantastic driving experience and reliability. No transmission, no radiators, silensors, pistons, and the hundreds of other moving parts. Only an electric motor and a battery. It is just fantastic to drive.


That may be true, but unless the other factors tip the balance the commercial adoption will not be up to expectations.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 27 Oct 2020 05:20

Watched this video about attempt to push EV in India. Seems policy makers do not understand much about business. The logical step would have been to build a battery factory at a massive.



https://youtu.be/KDqsTWyNa6w

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby asgkhan » 29 Oct 2020 19:02

I bought myself a Ebike. Brand is GoZero. There was a delay of 6 weeks due to lockdown.

Been using it for a month. Battery has a capacity of 50 kms. I keep switching between manual and pedal assist as I am slowly getting back to the fitness groove.

The ebike is fast growing industry although the prices can come down by 15% atleast.

https://www.amazon.in/gp/product/B07T9L ... UTF8&psc=1

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY: GoZero comes with a 400 Wh Lithium-Ion battery. The battery pack has high quality 18650 3C cells with more than 800 charging cycles. The battery is portable making it easy to carry and charge anywhere.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Oct 2020 23:43

^^^Don't get rid of your Enfield.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 03 Nov 2020 05:53

Mort Walker wrote:^^^Don't get rid of your Enfield.


They are very noisy. Owners should pay compensation to the society for creating all that discomfort. All fuel bikes should be taxed, so that people choose electric.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Nov 2020 08:52

Rishirishi wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:^^^Don't get rid of your Enfield.


They are very noisy. Owners should pay compensation to the society for creating all that discomfort. All fuel bikes should be taxed, so that people choose electric.


At least you'll hear in time to move out of the way before being run over. They are already heavily taxed and if BEVs or HEVs come in any significant numbers, that is greater than 1% in India, then they will be taxed so heavily that people will cry. Taxes on fuel in India is more than half the cost per liter. States and central government are not going to give up that revenue easily. Excise and VAT help budget shortfalls. It is just a matter of time before user fees, excise and VAT on electricity will be raised making it even more expensive.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Prasad » 03 Nov 2020 10:43

Fat chance of increase in domestic power rates. Govt will fall if they increase it.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Vivek K » 03 Nov 2020 10:52

Prasad - if EVs become a significant mode, then GOI will lose revenue since sales of fossil fuels will drop and consequently the revenue from this will drop. Therefore to make up for the loss, GOI will need to add taxes on the CAR SALES to regain the lost revenue.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Nov 2020 11:02

Vivek K wrote:Prasad - if EVs become a significant mode, then GOI will lose revenue since sales of fossil fuels will drop and consequently the revenue from this will drop. Therefore to make up for the loss, GOI will need to add taxes on the CAR SALES to regain the lost revenue.


That's correct. Two approaches. Heavily tax vehicles at point of sale which will kill industry or heavily tax retail power to make up for lost revenue. About 150 billion liters of fuel (petrol and diesel) was sold in India in 2019. Vehicle taxes can only yield limited revenue and it may be a combination of both.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby bharathp » 03 Nov 2020 11:19

Vivek K wrote:Prasad - if EVs become a significant mode, then GOI will lose revenue since sales of fossil fuels will drop and consequently the revenue from this will drop. Therefore to make up for the loss, GOI will need to add taxes on the CAR SALES to regain the lost revenue.

wont the import bill from oil imports come down as well? this saves a lot of money? it also gives some added advantages of less pollution and hence lower medical insurance costs

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Nov 2020 12:26

wont the import bill from oil imports come down as well? this saves a lot of money? it also gives some added advantages of less pollution and hence lower medical insurance costs


Crude oil imports by India in 2019 was $102 billion is an expenditure borne by the center and not the states. The center collected over $19 billion in petrol and diesel excise. With VAT and cess collected on petrol and diesel goes to the states. Of the total fuel taxes, the center gets 1/3 and the remaining 2/3 are the states. It's a matter who collects what amount.

India now has the highest taxes on fuel in the world!

Polluting industries in the air and water coupled with stubble burning are a significant contributor to pollution.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 04 Nov 2020 02:58

bharathp wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Prasad - if EVs become a significant mode, then GOI will lose revenue since sales of fossil fuels will drop and consequently the revenue from this will drop. Therefore to make up for the loss, GOI will need to add taxes on the CAR SALES to regain the lost revenue.

wont the import bill from oil imports come down as well? this saves a lot of money? it also gives some added advantages of less pollution and hence lower medical insurance costs


yes the import bill will go down significantly, but even more importantly, there is a huge geopolitical advantage to get rid of the oil import bill. The money saved can be used elsewhere.

The tax revenue argument is somewhat flawed. As of now the government government is earning some money, but if the oil price shoots up again to 140 Dollars per barrel, India will again be in deep sh*t again. The clean air is an extra bonus. All electric vehicles is the way forward.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby V_Raman » 04 Nov 2020 08:05

We should get Nissan to manufacture LEAF in india. Ideal car for India. We could remove import duties for fully built EVs for the next decade as an incentive - with a min price of like 10Lakhs and above.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby asgkhan » 07 Nov 2020 23:08

Rishirishi wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:^^^Don't get rid of your Enfield.


They are very noisy. Owners should pay compensation to the society for creating all that discomfort. All fuel bikes should be taxed, so that people choose electric.


Sorry I have the UCE version of the bike. Smooth engine, muted thump, I have kept it stock. So no disturbing of the neighbours. Problem is the vibration above 60 kmph. Anything over 60 kmph for prolonged period leads to a pleasant(or not) buzzing sensation throughout the body.

:D

On the other hand, it is right now lying unused because of korona and road digging in the layout. The conditions are bad that I have to step out only to dispose the garbage once a week @ the main gate. I am planning to tow the bike to my trusted garage and get it fixed this December.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 08 Nov 2020 08:41

asgkhan wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:
They are very noisy. Owners should pay compensation to the society for creating all that discomfort. All fuel bikes should be taxed, so that people choose electric.


Sorry I have the UCE version of the bike. Smooth engine, muted thump, I have kept it stock. So no disturbing of the neighbours. Problem is the vibration above 60 kmph. Anything over 60 kmph for prolonged period leads to a pleasant(or not) buzzing sensation throughout the body.

:D

On the other hand, it is right now lying unused because of korona and road digging in the layout. The conditions are bad that I have to step out only to dispose the garbage once a week @ the main gate. I am planning to tow the bike to my trusted garage and get it fixed this December.


Don't take me too serious. Just pulling Morts leg :)

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby suryag » 08 Nov 2020 22:01

Gurus over here can we revisit the H2 fuel cell applicability for India, few factoids below and a potential way forward for decentralized H2 production. Dont know much about Li economics but may be a gating factor for large scale adoption in India. Additionally setting up charging infrastructure with our weak backbone on Electricity transmission will limit wider adoption in India. Given all of this H2 is the next best thing for India

PRC is looking at Hydrogen Fuel cell based propulsion seriously to the point where they are subsidizing it more than they do for BEVs.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/China-s-subsidies-to-fast-track-development-of-fuel-cell-vehicles

Coming to the economics part of it, 1 kg of H2 gives as much power as 1kg of gasoline. Producing 1kg of H2 requires 51 kwh of electricity and 9kg of water. Of course, the logical way to think is why not use PV to generate electricity and then use for electrolysis, but given PV efficiencies of 15-20%(?) is not being pursued much by other nations. We in India have different set of problems and the electricity generated out of Solar plants(thermal-concentrator or PV) can use this mode to produce H2 for use by Fuel cell based vehicles.

Researchers at Stanford have figured out a way to produce H2 from electrolysis of Seawater while solving the core problem of corrosion due to Cl gas that is produced.
https://news.stanford.edu/2019/03/18/new-way-generate-hydrogen-fuel-seawater/

Elsewhere people have been able to produce H2 from domestic waste water(of course a big rider on its applicability beyond proof of concept)

In India CSIR and ISRO have demonstrated H2 fuel cell prototypes
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/csir-kpit-conduct-successful-trial-runs-of-hydrogen-fuel-cell-prototype-car-153855

So going forward is there a way in which we can make Villages produce H2 and then come up with their own cooperative H2 fueling stations for use by H2 fuel cell cars. Goal would be to reduce energy consumption for compression of H2 and reducing other transportation costs(pipeline etc) BTW, being in the industry I am aware of problems with handling of H2 in vehicles(safety, tanks leak(even thick carbon fiber ones), but there are also encouraging examples like Toyota's Mirai.

Of course, there are many challenges but its time we do a Tejas in this field and attempt to leapfrog over automobile propulsion systems

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 09 Nov 2020 04:03

suryag,

THe H2 fuel cell is indeed the surface transportation of the future. It is unlikely to be funded by GoI as there is no budget for it, so the onus is on private corporations who will do it when there is a profit incentive which will come in 20 years time. H2 fuel cell EVs will be in all vehicles by 2050.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby nachiket » 10 Nov 2020 20:10

I have a question about using electrolysis for commercial H2 production. Won't you have to put in as much energy (plus some more due to <100% efficiency) to split H2 and O2, that you will eventually get back from the H2 in the fuel cell? There is no net energy obtained then is there? How is this sustainable? Might be better to invest in transmission instead to make an EV charging infrastructure possible.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Uttam » 10 Nov 2020 21:52

nachiket wrote:I have a question about using electrolysis for commercial H2 production. Won't you have to put in as much energy (plus some more due to <100% efficiency) to split H2 and O2, that you will eventually get back from the H2 in the fuel cell? There is no net energy obtained then is there? How is this sustainable? Might be better to invest in transmission instead to make an EV charging infrastructure possible.


Think of electrolysis to produce H as a battery. Li-ion batteries are almost 99% efficient for short-term storage but they have many problems. They cost a lot, they lose charge over time, supply of Lithium is limited and strategically controlled, etc. The electrolysis H has a potential to serve as a battery for excess production from renewals. Current electrolysis tech has conversion efficiency of 60-70%. It will be similar to pumped storage (about 80%).

I don't think there is a universal solution. We will have to pursue many paths simultaneously. Just 10-15 years ago, no one expected such a rapid gain in solar panel efficiency and rapid drop in its prices. Who know, when some innovative catalyst will bring about highly efficient and low costing electrolysis systems.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby DavidD » 11 Nov 2020 00:53

BEVs are already viable options for passenger vehicles, hard to see H2 unseat them there. The main advantage of H2 is its higher energy density, so for purposes that require it, e.g. truck transportation, perhaps propeller aircrafts and ships in the future, that can be used. Those uses constitute a huge proportion of current fossil fuel use, so there's definitely a market despite the advances of BEV tech.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Vayutuvan » 11 Nov 2020 11:28

nachiket wrote:I have a question about using electrolysis for commercial H2 production. Won't you have to put in as much energy (plus some more due to <100% efficiency) to split H2 and O2, that you will eventually get back from the H2 in the fuel cell? There is no net energy obtained then is there? How is this sustainable? Might be better to invest in transmission instead to make an EV charging infrastructure possible.

There are other sources for H, for example methane.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 11 Nov 2020 12:26

Vayutuvan wrote:
nachiket wrote:I have a question about using electrolysis for commercial H2 production. Won't you have to put in as much energy (plus some more due to <100% efficiency) to split H2 and O2, that you will eventually get back from the H2 in the fuel cell? There is no net energy obtained then is there? How is this sustainable? Might be better to invest in transmission instead to make an EV charging infrastructure possible.

There are other sources for H, for example methane.


Are you talking about H that is captured from natural gas extraction or actually cracking CH4? Or both?

That's why a fuel cell which cracks natural gas CH4 is so important. The infrastructure to transport it exists, but a viable technology to separate the C-H bond doesn't at this time.


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