Electric vehicle and power storage

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disha
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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 22 Oct 2016 06:14

Hitesh wrote:
disha wrote:
Are you sure you are using that much of electricity? Are you saying that you consume 81 KWh a day? And not 81 KWh in entire month?


Yes my FPL online account shows the energy dashboard where it displays the usage. My house uses an average of 2,500 Kwh per month.


Just have to point out., that is 2.5 Mwh per month. Or you are using 30 MwH per year. In comparison., I am using a 6000 KwH (or 6 MwH) per year! You are using 5x my energy equivalent. And I also have a 4 BR house (but no pool). My electricity bill even after paying for the PG&E enron corruption tax comes to an average of $80 per month.

Are you spending money to heat the water in pool? You in Florida can make very good use of the non-solar roof top pool water heater option.

We can discuss other options later.


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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby MurthyB » 22 Oct 2016 06:35

Hitesh wrote:Was calculating at a off the grid standpoint of a view. as for net-metering, FPL hates it and wants to get rid of it. They may be successful at it. So wouldn't count on it as a long term prospect. Hence the battery costs. Furthermore, net metering doesn't help you at the higher price bands during certain hours, i.e., 6-10 am and 5-10 pm are those when the price per kwh is the highest. Since that is the time when the sun is not shining or at its peak, you won't get that much power from the solar panel system and have to rely on the electricity provided by the FPL. However at other times during the day, we are not home and we don't need that power and so do the rest of the majority of homes and power provided at these times are lower. So instead of feeding back into the grid, you would want to save the power you generate for the time you use the most.


They have to grandfather in net metering even if they remove it for new users. In CA that's how it works. I am waiting to see if I get NEM 1.0 (better deal) than NEM 2.0, but once I am in, they can't change it later, only stop offering it to new customers.

So it looks like you are consuming more during the day and less at night. Even then it might be better without the battery.

Anyway, consuming 2500kwh per month in CA would make your bill at least $1200 if not more :eek: :eek: . I thought pool pumps only add 400kwh more. Add another 400kwh for AC. That still leaves 1700kwh. For comparison with no AC and pool but electric car, I am at 700-800kwh per month.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Hitesh » 22 Oct 2016 13:33

well I pay on average of $250 a month and that is pretty well much in line with households in my neighborhood.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 22 Oct 2016 20:34

Hitesh wrote:well I pay on average of $250 a month and that is pretty well much in line with households in my neighborhood.


CA cost if <500 KwH per month is @0.13 cents but goes as high as @0.45 cents per KwH if it crosses >900 KwH per month (@10 days of your usage)., so in NorCal - you will pay @1000-@1200 per month.

Is your house >5000 sq ft? Do you have jacuzzi/hot tub/sauna as well?

My yearly usage is @6000 KwH. No pool. Prior to EV.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Hitesh » 22 Oct 2016 21:14

My house is 3k sq ft. Ac consumes a lot of power there's a lot of heat and humidity. South Florida is very humid.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 23 Oct 2016 04:25

^ Do an energy audit. You might be surprised where your energy goes and how it goes and you can possibly cut your bill in half keeping the same comfort.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Primus » 24 Oct 2016 18:26

^^
In our scenario, the solar generation is fed back into the grid if it is not used, we then get it back from the grid at night or when it snows etc. The Utility company does not allow generation of power beyond your calculated needs, i.e. you cannot for example put a solar 'farm' in your backyard like you can in California.

The other issue is that when there is an actual outage, such as following a storm, solar generation may not be enough, so to have uninterruptible power, you need either a battery (too expensive) or a generator. After Sandy we lost power for over two weeks and after Irene for over a week. It is not uncommon in my area for power to go out even after a mini-storm. So we put in a whole house generator that has a 20KW capacity and runs on piped natural gas. It takes care of our needs when there is an outage and was one of the best things we did. During Sandy we had to leave home for two weeks, never want that to happen again.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Primus » 24 Oct 2016 18:34

disha wrote:^ Do an energy audit. You might be surprised where your energy goes and how it goes and you can possibly cut your bill in half keeping the same comfort.



Yeah, will need to do this definitely. Peak summer usage for us is around 3600KWH per month, I suspect most of this is from the A/C and the dehumidification system. My house is less than 3K sq ft and yet it is not energy efficient (heating bills are also through the roof in the winter although we have oil heat so it is a bit cheaper than electric).

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby SBajwa » 24 Oct 2016 19:54

Check insulation up at attic and in basement. Heat rises and escapes from the roof and many times it is as simple as putting a fan up in an attic to push out the hot air during summers and tight sealing with extra insulation during winters to save energy.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Gagan » 24 Oct 2016 20:26

Anyone own a Tesla?
People say that the electricity bill doesn't really go up too much. Is that true?
Is the paint on the Tesla "soft"?

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Hitesh » 25 Oct 2016 00:54

Primus wrote:^^
In our scenario, the solar generation is fed back into the grid if it is not used, we then get it back from the grid at night or when it snows etc. The Utility company does not allow generation of power beyond your calculated needs, i.e. you cannot for example put a solar 'farm' in your backyard like you can in California.

The other issue is that when there is an actual outage, such as following a storm, solar generation may not be enough, so to have uninterruptible power, you need either a battery (too expensive) or a generator. After Sandy we lost power for over two weeks and after Irene for over a week. It is not uncommon in my area for power to go out even after a mini-storm. So we put in a whole house generator that has a 20KW capacity and runs on piped natural gas. It takes care of our needs when there is an outage and was one of the best things we did. During Sandy we had to leave home for two weeks, never want that to happen again.


Agreed on sentiment on leaving the house during evacuation but when you are in a flood zone, you need to evacuate. A common misconception that people have of the hurricanes in US is that the wind kills you. It can and does kill you but not the majority of death come from wind. It comes from flooding. When floods there is nothing you can do except pray for a way out. You cannot simply bunker down and hope to ride out the storm and deal with the aftermath when there is a strong likelihood of flood in your area.

Sorry for going off topic but for some arcane reason, felt the need to point out the need to evacuate during hurricane watches. I would love to get a backup power generator with piped natural gas but my neighborhood does not offer natural gas pipe. So my options are either a buried propane tank combined with the back up power generator or energy storage battery capable of holding up to 500kwh. But since my house lives right smack in the middle of a drainage area where my area gets all the water runoff, it means a 6 inch rain can turn into 2-3 feet of water on my street with water reaching to the doorstep of my house, I am not too confident of a generator being able to withstand such water levels.

SBajwa wrote:Check insulation up at attic and in basement. Heat rises and escapes from the roof and many times it is as simple as putting a fan up in an attic to push out the hot air during summers and tight sealing with extra insulation during winters to save energy.


I suspect that my attic insulation is the problem. I have to replace the insulation but it means hiring somebody to collect and haul away the old insulation and putting in new efficient insulation. It will cost me around $5k~$7k to do that. And I would have to install an attic fan to blow away the hot air. Also I have lots of glass sliding doors. My entire back section is nearly taken by glass sliding doors that faces the patio and these glass doors are kinda old. The cost to replace those glass doors are around $25k if I want to install efficient hurricane impact proof solar efficient doors. My windows replacement are also around $15k. To truly make my house energy efficient and run off the grid using solar power panels and have zero carbon emission requires an investment of $145k. Unless somebody gives me 10k shares of apple stock and tesla stock, I am kinda stuck with the inefficient energy configuration of the house and pay average of $250/mo or $3k a year. at 30 years, I would pay around $100k in energy bills.

I would probably go ahead and replace my insulation, do a sealing of the attic and windows all around, and install an attic fan and hope to reduce my bill by 30~40% during the hot months. My cost for doing that will be $10K or less. My payoff would be 10 years or more.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 25 Oct 2016 01:06

1. Paint on Tesla is "soft"., so yes - there will be road "chips". Options are go to a 3rd party to put a ceramic coat (pay some $3.5k on average) on Tesla prior to using it or after 2-3 years., pay the same amount to fix the paint at a later date. The ceramic coat paint process actually strips one layer of paint from your Tesla. Then there is suncoat/Carpro/CQuartz and various other gizmos. It all depends upon how much you are ready to pay upfront. And the processor (or the installer or the body shop person) also matters.

All of the above are warranty at most for 2-3 years. So one has to anyway re-do it 2-3 years later.

I have some miles on my Tesla and there are road "chips"., This is expected and I have a touch up paint can. Every few weeks., I do the touch up.

2. Regarding the electricity bill., it depends upon how much you use it. Basically, 1 KW of power will give you 3-4 miles. Take 3 miles at lower scale. So if you are driving only 300 miles a month., then of course there is no perceptible increase. But if you are driving say 12000 miles a year (or 1000 miles a month)., then it is 4000 KW of power requirement. Or one month of Primus'jis energy :-)

I found that my MPGe (Miles per Gallon electricity) equivalent is 100. That is for 1 gallon of gas, I got a car that drives 100 miles. Of course with cheaper electricity, the MPGe goes up.

With Tesla Model S., if you charge exclusively in their superchargers - then you save additionally 2.5k$ to 4.0k$. I would say., compared to Prius V., you will save 7500$ or compared to a Van/SUV, you will save 15000$

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 25 Oct 2016 01:18

Hitesh wrote:I would probably go ahead and replace my insulation, do a sealing of the attic and windows all around, and install an attic fan and hope to reduce my bill by 30~40% during the hot months. My cost for doing that will be $10K or less. My payoff would be 10 years or more.


Get a fan and put a ice stack in front of it or back of it and blow cool air around. Your payoff will be in hours.

Depends upon how your attic is., but in OSH/HD/Lowes you have bubble wraps in aluminum foil (an insulation material) which I think you can seal in the existing insulation by nailing it on the rafters and put in an additional layer of thinner insulation on top. Hire a handyman (or two) and check out your options on a side before taking a whole house project.

Of course getting double pane sliding doors help., also on the outside of the doors you can put R-25/R-50 Silver tint solar reflective sheets and that will cut down your heating during 'summer' months.

---

Sponsoring with paid tickets for the BRF jirga will also help. :wink:

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Primus » 26 Oct 2016 02:36

^^

Hitesh Ji, I actually do not live in a flood zone and the damage during Sandy was all wind related, a major part of the roof over our den (a flat single roof and not shingles) was torn and blew off. Nature's force is incredible as we all know, but to realize it first hand is something else. The next morning we couldn't even shift a small part of that roof from the grass it was lying on, the three of us.

Having said that, I agree completely with you re need to evacuate when a hurricane looms, at least to get away from flooding. Too many people I know had major damage due to the flood waters.

Re Tesla, it is by no means something that you buy to save money, but because you want a luxury car that not only has the performance but is also 'clean'. And if turns out to cost less than an ICE equivalent to run and maintain, that's just the icing on a lovely cake.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 26 Oct 2016 04:02

Maybe purchasing solar panels from India could be a solution.
https://www.bijlibachao.com/solar/solar ... india.html

Ikea will start to sell the solar systems soon. once we reach economies of scale, i think majority people will choose to go off grid in CA unless they drop the prices.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 26 Oct 2016 04:15

According to my calculations, it should be possible to get the price down to 6,55 Us cents per Kwh for a full battery backup solution.
This is if you purchase the system in India.

Assumptions:
Writedown is 10 years
Interest rate is 7%
cost of battery storage is 150 USD per Kwh

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 26 Oct 2016 10:43

^^ You mean USD 6.55 per KwH?

Installation cost of a solar panel including the solar panel is $5-6 per watt DC. So if you are installing a 5 KW DC system., it is anyway between 25k to 30k USD. The warranty is for 25 years.

In US., home construction is of wood and the roof is a basically a plywood over wood roof rafters. This means that when one installs the solar panels, it is basically punching the ties through the plywood into the wood rafters. One must have a certified installer and a certified electrician to make sure that you do not have a leaky roof and a you do not have solar panels flying around in gale force winds or have a electric hazard. By itself panels are cheap.

---

PG&E will stop accepting people into NEM-1.0 applications when it reaches 5% of generation capacity determined in some 2005/2006 time frame. It is reaching that capacity by November. I just got into NEM 1.0. Also PG&E does not allow you to put in a system that is way larger than your electricity consumption.

I have put in a system so that during peak hours I do not end up pay $0.40 per KwH. I actually generate and consume energy from Solar at that peak time and other times I will be paying hopefully $0.13 per KwH.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Primus » 26 Oct 2016 16:54

^^
The utility companies are in league with the politicians and the laws are written to perpetuate their monopoly. In our area too, you cannot generate or install a system capable of generating more than your calculated needs (based on past readings).

My whole idea is to try to reduce costs overall and if it does not happen, to at least take one step towards clean technology. The more people adopt solar the less the strangle-hold power companies will have.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby disha » 27 Oct 2016 02:29

^+72

With EV and Solar., I have markedly moved to a cleaner energy. My overall energy footprint has reduced and is decidedly cleaner because of the energy mix.

Currently if you are using an EV like Leaf or Fiat 500e., your cost of an alternate energy based lifestyle is not very significantly high. Tesla model S in that case is economic non-sense.

On a different statistic., if one use Tesla Model S for say 150k miles and the gas cost is USD 2.5 and the average car I am replacing is 30 mpg., then it will be saving 5000 gallons of gas and 12500 USD. Zero energy cost to the customer if charged exclusively at their super charger.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 27 Oct 2016 04:44

disha wrote:^^ You mean USD 6.55 per KwH?

Installation cost of a solar panel including the solar panel is $5-6 per watt DC. So if you are installing a 5 KW DC system., it is anyway between 25k to 30k USD. The warranty is for 25 years.

In US., home construction is of wood and the roof is a basically a plywood over wood roof rafters. This means that when one installs the solar panels, it is basically punching the ties through the plywood into the wood rafters. One must have a certified installer and a certified electrician to make sure that you do not have a leaky roof and a you do not have solar panels flying around in gale force winds or have a electric hazard. By itself panels are cheap.

---

PG&E will stop accepting people into NEM-1.0 applications when it reaches 5% of generation capacity determined in some 2005/2006 time frame. It is reaching that capacity by November. I just got into NEM 1.0. Also PG&E does not allow you to put in a system that is way larger than your electricity consumption.

I have put in a system so that during peak hours I do not end up pay $0.40 per KwH. I actually generate and consume energy from Solar at that peak time and other times I will be paying hopefully $0.13 per KwH.



Nope. The price per KWh is USD 0.06, if you manage to purchase the equipment at a wholesale price (import it from India). So far only idealists has bought solar panels to be socially responsible. Hence the vendors have been charging hefty prices. But now even IKEA will start to sell the panels and it will become something you can purchase in wallmart. Energy companies will get solidly screwed in sunny states.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby saip » 27 Oct 2016 08:01

I am switching to EV rate from Nov 1 (winter) for a few months. I will see how much we can save. While I can program my vehicle to charge only during the night and use the dishwasher at night. Only I have to be careful about the washer and dryer (electric). These are the only high usage things at home. I have no control over the microwave or the fridges (2 large and one mini). All the lights are LED or CFL (the ones I use the most). I should be able to get enough data by year end to see if I need solar.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Primus » 27 Oct 2016 16:33

^
Typically most of us lose out from the air-conditioning in the summers. Winters should have the lowest power usage because most people either have gas or oil burners for heat. Your fridges too work much less. Of course if you have electric base-board heating then you are in real trouble.

disha wrote:^+72

With EV and Solar., I have markedly moved to a cleaner energy. My overall energy footprint has reduced and is decidedly cleaner because of the energy mix.

Currently if you are using an EV like Leaf or Fiat 500e., your cost of an alternate energy based lifestyle is not very significantly high. Tesla model S in that case is economic non-sense.

On a different statistic., if one use Tesla Model S for say 150k miles and the gas cost is USD 2.5 and the average car I am replacing is 30 mpg., then it will be saving 5000 gallons of gas and 12500 USD. Zero energy cost to the customer if charged exclusively at their super charger.


I think a more equitable comparison would be between a high-end luxury car like say the 740iL and the Tesla. They are very similar in size and initial cost, features and 'image' if you like. The big difference is in the running and maintenance. The Beemer needs high-octane fuel and is a guzzler. Maintenance is free of course but even then it needs to be taken in periodically. The Model S, even without ludicrous mode leaves it in the dust in terms of performance.

From where I am looking, the EV is a no-brainer, once you get over the sticker shock.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Vayutuvan » 06 Nov 2019 02:16

A Standalone AC Battery Begins with a Cathode, an Anode, and a 'Biode'

Traditionally, alternating current from the power grid must be transformed from AC to DC and stored in the battery, resulting in power loss.

A new battery concept eliminates the current conversion by introducing a new type of electrode: The Biode.

The lithium titanate “Biode” features the characteristics of an anode and a cathode, enabling an AC system to store energy.

"The Biode is a new word we created, as it is in between an anode (minus) and a cathode (plus)," Tadashi Kubo, CEO and co-founder of the Cambridge, UK-headquartered AC Biode, told Tech Briefs via email.

Kubo and his company were one of eight category winners in the 2019 "Create the Future" Design Contest. (See all of the winners of this year's competition.)

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Nov 2019 22:08

^^ Will return in 3 years to lament not buying this stock as an Angel Investor, but I wouldn't (buy this stock as an Angel Investor or any investor).

But here is something to ponder: was watching a yak ride a motorized bicycle up an incline todin, and I asked him: "Do you have regenerative braking on that"?
"No, I wish I had!"

Maybe someone would like to take up this worthwhile endeavor? Might increase range by 1.5x, reduce fatal accidents from kids going 80kmph down slopes to have momentum to go up slopes, etc.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Nikhil T » 07 Nov 2019 04:42

Asking this here because I dont think we have discussed it.

Do we know why hybrid vehicles haven't been popular in India? In US, almost all taxis/ubers have moved over to hybrids to realize the gas savings (typically hybrids have 60-80% higher mileage). In India, we don't see this even though India is more price sensitive to gas prices. I believe one factor is that hybrids cost a lot more in India (e.g. Toyota Camry hybrid is nearly Rs 40 lakhs). Are there others? I was thinking why doesnt GoI subsidize hybrids, since it will reduce oil imports, save forex and reduce pollution?

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 07 Nov 2019 05:14

Nikhil T wrote:Asking this here because I dont think we have discussed it.

Do we know why hybrid vehicles haven't been popular in India? In US, almost all taxis/ubers have moved over to hybrids to realize the gas savings (typically hybrids have 60-80% higher mileage). In India, we don't see this even though India is more price sensitive to gas prices. I believe one factor is that hybrids cost a lot more in India (e.g. Toyota Camry hybrid is nearly Rs 40 lakhs). Are there others? I was thinking why doesnt GoI subsidize hybrids, since it will reduce oil imports, save forex and reduce pollution?


Hybrid will add cost. You need an electric as well as an petrol engine. The typical milage in a city is less then 20Km per liter for a new Prius.

The real deal is all electric.
Milage cost is equal to 56km per liter.
The executives of VW claim that their latest ID3 has a battery cost of less then USD 100 per kwh. A typical battery of 50Kwh can do about 300Km with AC etc. As the electric engine is 1500 dollars less in cost, the extra expenditure for a battry car with 300km range is USD 3500 or Rs 2,5 lacs.
Petrol engine cost arround Rs7 per km and electric arround Rs2 per km. Hence the saving is Rs 5 per km. If you drive the car 150 000K, you saving will be 7,5 lacs. Less noise, reliable. Really something the government needs to look into.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Vayutuvan » 07 Nov 2019 06:58

Nikhil T wrote:Are there others? I was thinking why doesnt GoI subsidize hybrids, since it will reduce oil imports, save forex and reduce pollution?


Hinda City sells CNG cars. Honda two-wheelers with CNG are also being sold. Bith the car and the two-wheeler come as CNG vehicles from the factory. These are not petrol/diesel vehicles retrofit to run on CNG. That also is possible of course.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Nov 2019 07:43

Nikhil T wrote:Asking this here because I dont think we have discussed it.

Do we know why hybrid vehicles haven't been popular in India? In US, almost all taxis/ubers have moved over to hybrids to realize the gas savings (typically hybrids have 60-80% higher mileage). In India, we don't see this even though India is more price sensitive to gas prices. I believe one factor is that hybrids cost a lot more in India (e.g. Toyota Camry hybrid is nearly Rs 40 lakhs). Are there others? I was thinking why doesnt GoI subsidize hybrids, since it will reduce oil imports, save forex and reduce pollution?


Until recently, hybrids imported to India also came with a 40% added tax I think. When in the US they were giving $4000 federal tax credits. Maybe Indians like paying for Saudi oil: it comes from under Me**a after all.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Nov 2019 07:46

The executives of VW claim that their latest ID3 has a battery cost of less then USD 100 per kwh.

You still believe what Executives of VW claim? :rotfl:

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Nikhil T » 08 Nov 2019 12:39

Rishirishi wrote:
Nikhil T wrote:Asking this here because I dont think we have discussed it.

Do we know why hybrid vehicles haven't been popular in India? In US, almost all taxis/ubers have moved over to hybrids to realize the gas savings (typically hybrids have 60-80% higher mileage). In India, we don't see this even though India is more price sensitive to gas prices. I believe one factor is that hybrids cost a lot more in India (e.g. Toyota Camry hybrid is nearly Rs 40 lakhs). Are there others? I was thinking why doesnt GoI subsidize hybrids, since it will reduce oil imports, save forex and reduce pollution?


Hybrid will add cost. You need an electric as well as an petrol engine. The typical milage in a city is less then 20Km per liter for a new Prius.


Got it - so a Prius Hybrid (54 mpg == 22 kmpl) has the same mileage as say a Swift petrol.

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Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Vayutuvan » 09 Nov 2019 04:23

Exposing Cathodes to Light Decreases Charge Time in Lithium-Ion Batteries
Researchers at the U.S. Department of Energy’s (DOE) Argonne National Laboratory have reported a new mechanism to speed up the charging of lithium-ion batteries for electric vehicles. Simply exposing the cathode to a beam of concentrated light — for example, the white light from a xenon lamp — lowers the battery charging time by a remarkable factor of two or more. If commercialized, such technology could be a game changer for electric vehicles.


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