Electric vehicle and power storage

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 19 Apr 2020 23:41

Gyan wrote:Tesla Battery storage project in Australia costed USD 66 Million for 129 MWH. This means around USD 500 per KWH.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsda ... prov=sfla1

Am I getting my Calculation wrong?


From the Wikipedia reference:
Generation Capacity = 100 MW
Energy Capacity = 129 MWHr = 129,000 KWHr
Capital Construction Cost = $90M AUD = 90/1.6 = $56.25M USD (giving best USD rate)

Battery Energy Cost = $436 USD per KWHr. This isn't just the battery cost, it includes land, labor and construction costs. It doesn't include maintenance and operational costs, although it will be low compared to conventional fuels, it won't be negligible either. It also doesn't include battery replacement cost after running 7 years. Assuming Lithium-Ion batteries are $80/KWHr in 7 years, then it will be over $10M USD just for the batteries.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1229
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 23 Apr 2020 05:12

The lockdown will save at lest 20-30 000 lives and over 100 000 serious injuries from traffic related accidents. The government should try a ban (or rs 50 000 per month tax) on all private vehicles and only allow people to use gas driven buses. The freed space will help buses move faster, eliminate traffic jams, near eliminate the accidents and also help keep the air cleaner. It should be tried out in places like Mumbai, Bangalore, NCR etc

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 23 Apr 2020 06:51

^^^Better yet ban all personal vehicles except for bullock carts and horse pulled carriages. Make sure to put a collection bag to collect all the b******t.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1229
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 26 Apr 2020 01:43

EV (100% electric) plans for the largest car companies. Really nice summary.

https://www.businessinsider.com/promises-carmakers-have-made-about-their-future-electric-vehicles-2020-1?r=US&IR=T#nissan-8

Last year, Volkswagen said it will spend more than $30 billion developing EVs by 2023. The manufacturer also aims for EVs to make up 40% of its global fleet by 2030. Not to mention, Volkswagen plans to reach its target of 1 million electric cars produced by the end of 2023, two years ahead of its prior predictions.


As of late last year, auto manufacturers had pledged to spend a total of $225 billion developing new EVs in the near future, via

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Apr 2020 02:05

100% electric does NOT equal 100% battery. Try to understand that, but I doubt you can. Hybrids are EVs. Toyota, VW and others will release lots of pug-in hybrid EVs at low cost that will get nearly 100 MPG for cars the size of the Camry and Passat.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1229
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 26 Apr 2020 02:33

Mort Walker wrote:100% electric does NOT equal 100% battery. Try to understand that, but I doubt you can. Hybrids are EVs. Toyota, VW and others will release lots of pug-in hybrid EVs at low cost that will get nearly 100 MPG for cars the size of the Camry and Passat.


This is getting beyond stupid. How can a vehicle using petrol/diesel be an electric vehicle??

Any way, take time to educate your self with collins dictionary.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/electric-vehicle

(Automotive engineering: Vehicle types)
An electric vehicle is a vehicle that is driven by an electric motor which draws its current either from storage batteries or from overhead cables.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Apr 2020 02:41

^^^I suggest you get an education:

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do ... -cars-work

Image

Fuel-Efficient System Design
Beyond battery storage and motor power, there are various ways to combine the power from the electric motor and the engine. The two main configurations are parallel and series. Some PHEVs use transmissions that allow them to operate in either parallel or series configurations, switching between the two based on the drive profile.

Parallel hybrid operation connects the engine and the electric motor to the wheels through mechanical coupling. Both the electric motor and the engine can drive the wheels directly.This is the method Toyota and others are using today because it is cost effective.

Series plug-in hybrids use only the electric motor to drive the wheels. The internal combustion engine is used to generate electricity for the motor. Vehicles of this type are often referred to as extended-range electric vehicles. General Motors (GM) uses a slightly modified version of this design in the Chevy Volt. The electric motor drives the wheels almost all of the time, but the vehicle can switch to work like a parallel hybrid at highway speeds when the battery is depleted. This is the method that will come in a couple of years.

Once the series plug-in hybrids come about by 2025, 100% battery EVs will no longer be cost effective. They will phase out and fuel cell technology will replace them.

What we have with Tesla and others with 100% battery EVs is the equivalent of external combustion engine of over 100 years ago. This type of long-time charging vehicle will go away.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1229
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 26 Apr 2020 04:06

You have added your own text, that is not a part of the link. Just fake.

PHEV are plug ins and EV are 100% electric. You know this very well. From my post above it should be clear that Toyota and VW both are betting heavy on 100% Electric vehicles.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16548
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby NRao » 26 Apr 2020 07:28

Rishirishi wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:100% electric does NOT equal 100% battery. Try to understand that, but I doubt you can. Hybrids are EVs. Toyota, VW and others will release lots of pug-in hybrid EVs at low cost that will get nearly 100 MPG for cars the size of the Camry and Passat.


This is getting beyond stupid. How can a vehicle using petrol/diesel be an electric vehicle??

Any way, take time to educate your self with collins dictionary.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/electric-vehicle

(Automotive engineering: Vehicle types)
An electric vehicle is a vehicle that is driven by an electric motor which draws its current either from storage batteries or from overhead cables.


You seem to have answered your own question.

How can a vehicle using petrol/diesel be an electric vehicle??


(Automotive engineering: Vehicle types)
An electric vehicle is a vehicle that is driven by an electric motor which draws its current either from storage batteries or from overhead cables.


If a vehicle is driven by an electric motor it is considered to be an electric vehicle. Look for the propulsion system.

The source of that electricity is a totally different topic, unrelated to this definition. And, where the source is located is even more remote to the discussion.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16548
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby NRao » 26 Apr 2020 08:12

This type of long-time charging vehicle will go away.


Even if the density increases substantially?

Looks like a Chinese manufacturer is providing replacement batteries instead of recharging.

Also, Elon Bhai is talking of using batteries for air travel- talks of very high density materials. Tesla with a 1000 mile battery.

If he can achieve such densities then he will be in the game for a very long time.

saumitra_j
BRFite
Posts: 349
Joined: 24 Dec 2005 17:13
Location: Pune, India

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby saumitra_j » 26 Apr 2020 10:11

I don't know if information about this company has been posted before: Gegadyne Energy - the start up is based out of Mumbai with a bunch of young PhDs trying to tackle the so called holy grail of battery technology: Getting a battery with a similar or more energy density than Li-ion batteries but at a cheaper price point and with less fire hazards.

There technology is super-capacitor based - their secret sauce being nano-materials which they have devised for better chemistry within the battery and claim to charge one fully in about 15 minutes! These guys, if they succeed, will definitely transform the EV market big time!

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16548
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby NRao » 26 Apr 2020 11:11

^^^^^

They are impressive. Gave a TED talk about a year ago.

Meanwhile. Just yesterday.
Telsa patents a new electrode for its 1 million mile battery

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Apr 2020 11:26

NRao wrote:
This type of long-time charging vehicle will go away.


Even if the density increases substantially?

Looks like a Chinese manufacturer is providing replacement batteries instead of recharging.

Also, Elon Bhai is talking of using batteries for air travel- talks of very high density materials. Tesla with a 1000 mile battery.

If he can achieve such densities then he will be in the game for a very long time.


Energy density:
lithium ion battery = 0.9 MJ/Kg (best case)
jet fuel = 43 MJ/Kg at 8% (worst case) efficiency = 3.4 MJ

3.4 > 0.9

Elon Musk is talking about very large battery pack for a super sports car. He is COVIDIOT bigger than Donald Trump who suggested injecting disinfectent. Musk provided hospitals with sleep apnea machines instead of promised Tesla ventilators.

Image

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Apr 2020 11:37



This doesn't mean the battery charge lasts 1 million miles, but rather it can go through many cycles of charge-discharge in a vehicle for upto 1 million miles. Toyota's NiMH batteries have a life of 300,000 miles.

The problem in all 100% battery solutions is the very long charge time and start up infrastructure costs. That is the owner must install an electric service panel with higher current and/or another phase, or they must invest in the solar panel setup. All of this adds to initial costs.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Apr 2020 11:44

Rishirishi wrote:You have added your own text, that is not a part of the link. Just fake.

PHEV are plug ins and EV are 100% electric. You know this very well. From my post above it should be clear that Toyota and VW both are betting heavy on 100% Electric vehicles.


Oh dear. That is part of the link, if you bothered to read and click on the information. You keep making a fool of yourself:
https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electr ... _phev.html

Read down to the part of "Fuel-Efficient System Design"

I think you suffer from a learning disability or mental retardation.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Apr 2020 11:57

saumitra_j wrote:I don't know if information about this company has been posted before: Gegadyne Energy - the start up is based out of Mumbai with a bunch of young PhDs trying to tackle the so called holy grail of battery technology: Getting a battery with a similar or more energy density than Li-ion batteries but at a cheaper price point and with less fire hazards.

There technology is super-capacitor based - their secret sauce being nano-materials which they have devised for better chemistry within the battery and claim to charge one fully in about 15 minutes! These guys, if they succeed, will definitely transform the EV market big time!


If they can get the nano-composite materials out of a lab and actually in production will be impressive; however, a 20-30 KWHr battery charged in a hour at 250V is a lot of current. High current charging of even mobile devices with Li-Ion batteries is troublesome today. If it is a vehicle, think of it as filling gasoline in your car while smoking.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1229
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 26 Apr 2020 21:48

The problem in all 100% battery solutions is the very long charge time and start up infrastructure costs. That is the owner must install an electric service panel with higher current and/or another phase, or they must invest in the solar panel setup. All of this adds to initial costs.


I suggest we stop this derogatory language, as this is a public board and people may not be very interested.

You are right there will be initial costs of setting up the charging infrastructure.

Costs setting up the charging infrastructure is not a great, when compared to the cost of oil imports. India imported 119 billion dollars worth of oil in 2019.
1 Cars can be charged from a ordinary socket, but will only charge approx 150KM over night with a 16Am charge. This is sufficient for most people. To charge 500km at home one would require 7Kwh charging socket. This can cost up to RS 75 000.

Fast chargerge public stations. In Germany they are planning to standardize 350 kwh charging stations. This will charge a a 90Kwh battery to 80 % within 15 min.

The cost of building a fast charging power station with multiple charging points is not that great.
If you use 1 million usd per station and build 10 000 of them along the highways, the total cost will be 10 billion dollars (only a 10% of the oil import bill).

India needs to kill the oil import bill. Oil dependency pose a grave security threat and costs is harming India's growth ambitions.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Apr 2020 23:32

Rishirishi wrote:
The problem in all 100% battery solutions is the very long charge time and start up infrastructure costs. That is the owner must install an electric service panel with higher current and/or another phase, or they must invest in the solar panel setup. All of this adds to initial costs.


I suggest we stop this derogatory language, as this is a public board and people may not be very interested.

You are right there will be initial costs of setting up the charging infrastructure.

Costs setting up the charging infrastructure is not a great, when compared to the cost of oil imports. India imported 119 billion dollars worth of oil in 2019.
1 Cars can be charged from a ordinary socket, but will only charge approx 150KM over night with a 16Am charge. This is sufficient for most people. To charge 500km at home one would require 7Kwh charging socket. This can cost up to RS 75 000.

Fast chargerge public stations. In Germany they are planning to standardize 350 kwh charging stations. This will charge a a 90Kwh battery to 80 % within 15 min.

The cost of building a fast charging power station with multiple charging points is not that great.
If you use 1 million usd per station and build 10 000 of them along the highways, the total cost will be 10 billion dollars (only a 10% of the oil import bill).

India needs to kill the oil import bill. Oil dependency pose a grave security threat and costs is harming India's growth ambitions.



Rs. 75,000 is too much initial cost. People will do it if it is less than Rs. 10,000.

The cost of importing oil is passed on to the consumer which is amortized by the amount they drive. GOI and states collects huge taxes on it. As oil/barrel prices fall, petrol cost in India doesn't go down as much. It becomes a tax collection windfall.

Fast charging requires lots of current across a circuit. In India, wiring is shoddy even in posh localities and fires are common in the summer when ACs are running and put a heavy load on wiring and service panels. Charging a 100% battery EV overnight at home is fraught with problems. A 15 minute charge on consumer vehicles is too long and will lead to very long queues if everyone has 100% battery EVs. Gasoline is dispensed at 30 liters/minute and petrol pumps in India move people in-out fast. Building lots of charging stations will be too expensive. The only way out is to use compressed hydrogen and fuel cells. Until that time, PEHVs for all types of vehicles will be the ideal solution until fuel cells start to become available by 2030.

As the population becomes more wealthy in India, more vehicles will be sold. Oil import due to mass adoption of PEHVs will reduce the rate of growth or may make current import levels flat. What we don't want is to import Chinese Li-Ion batteries. Then ME oil is replaced with Chinese Lithium, which is a more worse problem.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16548
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby NRao » 27 Apr 2020 00:47

saumitra_j wrote:I don't know if information about this company has been posted before: Gegadyne Energy - the start up is based out of Mumbai with a bunch of young PhDs trying to tackle the so called holy grail of battery technology: Getting a battery with a similar or more energy density than Li-ion batteries but at a cheaper price point and with less fire hazards.

There technology is super-capacitor based - their secret sauce being nano-materials which they have devised for better chemistry within the battery and claim to charge one fully in about 15 minutes! These guys, if they succeed, will definitely transform the EV market big time!


BTW, Tesla acquired a similar company (I think) - Maxwell Technologies. MT does not manufacture anything, so I suspect they are still in a lab stage.

However, Tesla, late last year, acquired a Canadian company, Hibar (?) that manufactures either cells or capacitors.

The game plan for Tesla, seems to be to use a capacitor in addition to its battery. Some claim that one could get 25 miles in a 15 seconds (not minutes) charge with a single capacitor.

More to this story.

There is one company in Europe that makes and sells capacitors made of graphene.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1229
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 27 Apr 2020 05:21

NRao wrote:
saumitra_j wrote:I don't know if information about this company has been posted before: Gegadyne Energy - the start up is based out of Mumbai with a bunch of young PhDs trying to tackle the so called holy grail of battery technology: Getting a battery with a similar or more energy density than Li-ion batteries but at a cheaper price point and with less fire hazards.

There technology is super-capacitor based - their secret sauce being nano-materials which they have devised for better chemistry within the battery and claim to charge one fully in about 15 minutes! These guys, if they succeed, will definitely transform the EV market big time!


BTW, Tesla acquired a similar company (I think) - Maxwell Technologies. MT does not manufacture anything, so I suspect they are still in a lab stage.

However, Tesla, late last year, acquired a Canadian company, Hibar (?) that manufactures either cells or capacitors.

The game plan for Tesla, seems to be to use a capacitor in addition to its battery. Some claim that one could get 25 miles in a 15 seconds (not minutes) charge with a single capacitor.

More to this story.

There is one company in Europe that makes and sells capacitors made of graphene.



Just wondering, what are your thoughts of the claims by Samsung and its solid state battery?

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1229
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 15 May 2020 04:02

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/auto/news/teslas-secret-batteries-aim-to-rework-the-math-for-electric-cars-and-the-grid/articleshow/75738654.cms

Is this the end of Petrol and Diesel cars ?

The cost of CATL's cobalt-free lithium iron phosphate battery packs has fallen below $80 per kilowatt-hour,
with the cost of the battery cells dropping below $60/kWh, the sources said. CATL’s low-cobalt NMC battery
packs are close to $100/kWh.
Auto industry executives have said $100/kWh for battery packs is the level at which electric vehicles reach
rough parity with internal combustion competitors.


At $ 80 a typical battery powered vehicle will only cost 1,7 lacs more (range of 350 km). Running cost will fall to rs 1,5 per km.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 15 May 2020 06:43

Everyone in the world will be cautious about buying Chinese batteries that are priced so low to kill the competition from Japan and Korean cells. When others can do it for less than $100/KWHr, then people will pay attention.

Tesla can import them in order to keep their profit margins high, but I can guarantee countries will slap a huge duty on these Chinese batteries. Tesla has yet to produce a BEV priced between $30-35K. They might be able to by 2025.

M_Joshi
BRFite
Posts: 148
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:06

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby M_Joshi » 15 May 2020 14:17

Does anyone here have here some expertise in manufacturing of EV chargers? I'm planning to get into it & some technical guidance would be helpful.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10442
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Vayutuvan » 19 May 2020 05:22

NRao wrote:Looks like a Chinese manufacturer is providing replacement batteries instead of recharging.


Replacement batteries at charging stations is the way to go. Batteries are owned by the charging stations. The charging stations can run on a franchise basis with a few large franchising companies. Inter-franchise batteries can be handled through inter-franchising-company deals similar to seat sharing etc. between/among airlines.

Batteries are somewhat heavy but swapping can be handled easily by standardizing on battery size, shape, and placement in the vehicle. Anybody wanting a refill can simply drive into battery changer like they do when they get a an automatic car wash. It is even possible to give a free car wash along with a changed battery.

KL Dubey
BRFite
Posts: 726
Joined: 16 Dec 2016 22:34

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby KL Dubey » 22 May 2020 09:46

Mort Walker wrote:100% electric does NOT equal 100% battery. Try to understand that, but I doubt you can. Hybrids are EVs. Toyota, VW and others will release lots of pug-in hybrid EVs at low cost that will get nearly 100 MPG for cars the size of the Camry and Passat.


I'm not trying to contradict your overall good discussion, but obviously for the plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) 100 MPG is just the road gasoline mileage. If you only plug it in (no gas fillups) and only take short trips < 20 miles every day, it could be infinite MPGs...but that's not quite meaningful.

There are multiple "serious" considerations in purchasing a HEV/PHEV/BEV (not considering things like "need for speed" or a "sexy car").

- Cost of the car
- Energy and fuel cost
- Environmental impact - which mainly includes the CO2 emissions for powering the car and then the life cycle sustainability of making the car and recycling it at end of life (batteries, metals etc)
- And of course, whether the batteries and critical/rare materials are Chinese or not...!

In the USA at the present time, the regular hybrid (HEV) seems the best overall choice for most people wanting to change from a conventional gas vehicle.

- It is now nearly the same cost as the gasoline car (<$1000 difference). The PHEV and pure battery EV (BEV) are considerably more expensive.

- With electricity and gasoline both being cheap, the lower cost of running on more grid electricity (PHEV) versus more gasoline (HEV) isn't much of a saving for most drivers.

- In terms of CO2 emissions, with the current US electricity grid mix (gas+coal+nuclear+renewables), here is the comparison:

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html

The big saving in emissions is in transitioning from a gasoline to a HEV...beyond that, its not a whole lot more effective in terms of greenhouse emissions.

- Life cycle issues: the HEV has a moderately sized battery that lasts a long time and uses the least amount of lithium and metals. PHEVs and BEVs use 2-8X the amounts of these materials and currently have questionable environmental benefit outside of CO2 emissions.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 22 May 2020 10:51

Dubeyji,

PHEVs like the Toyota RAV4 Prime and Prius Prime mileage stated is a combination of electric and gasoline. Yes, you can run on the small battery only for 20-40 miles and then recharge, but drive performance and range is better when using a combination of both. All of these vehicles will be Ultra Low Emission Vehicles (ULEV) or Super ULEV (SULEV). The CO2 emissions are less of concern compared to the NOX and other organic gas emissions for the purposes of reducing PPM air pollution. Two or four of the wheels will be tied to electric motors. The transmission will be a simplified Constant Variable Torque (CVT) instead of conventional gears. In the recent past, CVTs were not reliable, but have become considerably better in the last 5-10 years.

If you look at my post above about the PHEV diagram, the series PHEV is one where a constant RPM small gasoline engine will be used to charge a battery. Only the electric motor turns the wheels; the gasoline engine only generates electricity. Series PHEVs can run solely on electricity until the battery needs recharging. The gasoline engine will then generate the electricity needed to power the electric motor. For shorter trips, these vehicles might use no gasoline at all. This is really the next step for automobiles.

The big question is cost. BEVs are the most expensive for a mid-size sedan. Starting price is around $40K like the Model 3, the Model S Long Range is nearly $80K. PHEVs come next, but they are available at the top trim levels at this time. After that the HEVs starting in the mid $30K price range.

The series PHEVs will become available in numbers sometime after 2025.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7558
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby nachiket » 23 May 2020 03:10

Mort Walker wrote:If you look at my post above about the PHEV diagram, the series PHEV is one where a constant RPM small gasoline engine will be used to charge a battery. Only the electric motor turns the wheels; the gasoline engine only generates electricity. Series PHEVs can run solely on electricity until the battery needs recharging. The gasoline engine will then generate the electricity needed to power the electric motor. For shorter trips, these vehicles might use no gasoline at all. This is really the next step for automobiles.

IMHO these (if available at a reasonable price) have a lot more scope in India compared to battery only vehicles like Tesla or the Leaf. Number of Indian car buyers having their own homes with an attached garage is minuscule. Most live in apartment blocks where charging facilities are not available. Most don't have any parking facilities at all with the cars just parked on the street. Where will they get charged? Lack of charging infra on long distance trips will also be a problem. We need to reduce our petrol consumption (and thereby reduce oil imports) somehow. The prices may be low right now, but they will increase again after the current global crisis has passed and we'll be back to spending astronomical amounts of forex on oil again.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 23 May 2020 09:58

nachiket wrote:IMHO these (if available at a reasonable price) have a lot more scope in India compared to battery only vehicles like Tesla or the Leaf. Number of Indian car buyers having their own homes with an attached garage is minuscule. Most live in apartment blocks where charging facilities are not available. Most don't have any parking facilities at all with the cars just parked on the street. Where will they get charged? Lack of charging infra on long distance trips will also be a problem. We need to reduce our petrol consumption (and thereby reduce oil imports) somehow. The prices may be low right now, but they will increase again after the current global crisis has passed and we'll be back to spending astronomical amounts of forex on oil again.


More than half of India's population doesn't live in the metros, but they still don't have attached garages. Fast charging a large battery in multiple residential locations is a safety risk, it's just a lot of current across a circuit. Residential wiring is problematic. HEVs and PHEVs will be the solution until 2040 and perhaps to 2050 until we have fuel cell vehicles in significant numbers and at reasonable cost. Any vehicle over Rs. 10 lakhs (2020 value) is a non-starter for mass adoption in India. If a Maruti/Suzuki Swift sized vehicle can get 50 Km/liter as a HEV or PHEV in that price range is available, then it will be a hit. That average is better than twice of the current all gasoline version. Even then, oil imports won't come down as more people will have vehicles. Commercial trucks will remain on diesel for the foreseeable future.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1425
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Gyan » 24 May 2020 12:05

Electric Cars are first hitting luxury car Market, which is cars above USD 35000. Around 13% of world car market is luxury. Economic argument of Luxury market is different than economic cars. The projection is that by 2030 around 8% of vehicles in the world will be electric. Hence alongwith Electric Railway, electric metro, electric mono rail etc it will have major impact on Crude oil exporting nations ie Saudis & ME.

In ten years, electric battery energy has doubled within the same price point. If even by 2033, if Battery Energy doubles again, it will be rapid end of crude oil "prices"/demand by 2040-45.

Introduction of Plaid battery in Model S by Tesla, around 2022, with USD 85,000 Roadster $ 200,000, Cyber Truck at $ 70,000 with Range of 800-1000km will bring super sexy quotient to Electric cars, from which there is no going back.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 24 May 2020 23:02

Gyan wrote:Electric Cars are first hitting luxury car Market, which is cars above USD 35000. Around 13% of world car market is luxury. Economic argument of Luxury market is different than economic cars. The projection is that by 2030 around 8% of vehicles in the world will be electric. Hence alongwith Electric Railway, electric metro, electric mono rail etc it will have major impact on Crude oil exporting nations ie Saudis & ME.

In ten years, electric battery energy has doubled within the same price point. If even by 2033, if Battery Energy doubles again, it will be rapid end of crude oil "prices"/demand by 2040-45.

Introduction of Plaid battery in Model S by Tesla, around 2022, with USD 85,000 Roadster $ 200,000, Cyber Truck at $ 70,000 with Range of 800-1000km will bring super sexy quotient to Electric cars, from which there is no going back.


Those prices of the Tesla are unaffordable for the vast majority. The US gets away with it by low or zero interest financing rates, but the rest of the world does not. Even $50K for a 500 mile range EV is not sustainable. Prices in the US have to be between $30-$35K for mass adoption. From 2021 through 2025 - high end trim levels, but not luxury, HEVs and PHEVs have the ability for long range without long charge times between $35-$50K. Large SUVs and minivans will get at least 35 MPG without sacrificing power and torque.

Battery energy has not doubled in 10 years, what is happening is that larger batteries are being used. The lithium ion battery chemistry offers the best energy density at this time.

In India as more highways are being built across the country, along with larger corridors, like the Delhi-Mumbai Expressway, in this post pandemic world people will opt for their personal vehicle to go longer distances. It's not just that, but as the GDP goes toward $5 trillion, trucking transport will increase as well. Any percentage increase in EVs will be offset by overall growth of all vehicles. At best between now and 2030, I don't see India's oil imports decreasing, but the growth may not be as fast like the 2010-2020 time period. IMHO, the key is to have good quality EVs within Rs. 10 lakhs for mass adoption.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 24 May 2020 23:07, edited 1 time in total.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1425
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Gyan » 24 May 2020 23:03

Another interesting battery technology for India is Aluminium Air. It's not rechargeable as Aluminum as to be replaced like fuel. Spent Aluminium can be recycled. Range is 2000km for a car, till the aluminium is replaced, with drop in plates.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8342
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Mort Walker » 24 May 2020 23:08

^^^Development of batteries and actual production are two different things. Large batteries that are over 30 KWHr capacity are applicable to EVs. Smaller battery development for electronics are an entirely different issue.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1229
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Electric vehicle and power storage

Postby Rishirishi » 25 May 2020 06:25

Gyan wrote:Electric Cars are first hitting luxury car Market, which is cars above USD 35000. Around 13% of world car market is luxury. Economic argument of Luxury market is different than economic cars. The projection is that by 2030 around 8% of vehicles in the world will be electric. Hence alongwith Electric Railway, electric metro, electric mono rail etc it will have major impact on Crude oil exporting nations ie Saudis & ME.

In ten years, electric battery energy has doubled within the same price point. If even by 2033, if Battery Energy doubles again, it will be rapid end of crude oil "prices"/demand by 2040-45.

Introduction of Plaid battery in Model S by Tesla, around 2022, with USD 85,000 Roadster $ 200,000, Cyber Truck at $ 70,000 with Range of 800-1000km will bring super sexy quotient to Electric cars, from which there is no going back.


So far batteries have been expensive and the only ones willing to pay the price has been the higher end of the market. Hence the prices of EV's have been high not only due to high battery costs but also the luxury segment. But now it is claimed that Tesla has reached the magic 80 Dollar per KWh mark. The manufacturers are keeping their plans secret, as they fear fall in sales of new cars. The Oil lobby is also working overtime in order to slow down the progress of EV.
At 80 dollars Kwh it will be possible to sell a Dzire with a range of 350km for only Rs 150K extra. In addition most will have to pay Rs 15-20K for a home charging station.


Return to “Technology & Economic Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests