Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

SaraLax · Post by **SaraLax** » 22 Dec 2016 16:46

habal wrote:
SaraLax wrote:I think its well known in this forum that folks like habal (Bengaluru based ?) & MohdKav (Kerala based ?) are completely anti-Demonetization in their inclinations and their posts indicate their defiant mood almost in support of BM Holders & almost praising the crooked methods used by these BM Holders to save their BM Stash and completely against the government's DeMo actions.

Despicable ! to say the least !!.
SaraLax, did demonitisation for you really imply throttling of alternate opinion ?

just asking.

No.

I get the feeling that if you (habal) or MohdKav were in a position of political power (like Mamata or Kejriwal) or in IAS babu positions - they would attempt to actively derail the process of the Central government controlling corruption & bringing in the rightful taxes to government, by sabotaging it in some way or the other.

I feel that people of this ilk would misinform the gullible folks sans any proof & would just act like those Journalists who deliberately conjure anti-Modi articles & write up fake gang rape scenarios & lack of police action during JAT agitation in Murthal in Haryana last year (by FIRSTPOST.COM's Tarique Anwar) or a journalist from UP who wrote up a fake RTI Reply that was anti-minority in its detail & was then sent to jail when his RTI fraud was detected by the police or even this latest piece by what-appears-to-be-one-more-anti-modi Keralite origin Journo Mr.Pramod Kumar in Firstpost's recent article titled I-T raid on P Rama Mohana Rao: BJP's last-ditch effort to make note ban count ( http://www.firstpost.com/politics/i-t-r ... 68444.html ). So here we have a journalist who is so cocky & confident to pass off that DeMo has Failed and hence the TN Chief Secretary IT Raids case was just a hack by the Modi government to prove that the DeMo is working !!!. All this is pure speculation by a 2 bit Journalist and just read the numeber of times this specific article has been criticized for supporting Black Money corruption & for criticizing the IT actions on TN Chief Secretary. These articles are nothing but an exhibition of rabid anti-Modi hatred held by de-racinated Journalists who don't want India to succeed in any way on its numerous attempts to prosper at a faster rate. The hatred for Modi is so strong among some people that they go to any lengths to pass all sorts of wrong judgements even before a process has come to an end.

There are so many genuine economists & bankers & CA's who are of the opinion - that it is too early to speculate or come to a conclusion on the results of such a mammoth DeMo exercise (done for the first time in such a large scale anaywhere in this universe) and that we need to wait for many more months before a clear picture of the results of DeMo can emerge and that lots of data points need to be gathered to understand the final impact. Now, here we have some folks in our BRF who mirror the same sentiments expressed by visibly anti-Modi journalists spewing out unfounded information sans any proper proof & putting out just useless rhetoric on the failure of an activity that is still in progress.

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Dec 2016 16:53

SaraLax wrote: There are so many genuine economists & bankers & CA's who are of the opinion - that it is too early to speculate or come to a conclusion on the results of such a mammoth DeMo exercise (done for the first time in such a large scale anaywhere in this universe) and that we need to wait for many more months before a clear picture of the results of DeMo can emerge and that lots of data points need to be gathered to understand the final impact. Now, here we have some folks in our BRF who mirror the same sentiments expressed by visibly anti-Modi journalists spewing out unfounded information sans any proper proof & putting out just useless rhetoric on the failure of an activity that is still in progress.

dear SaraLax,

I have also come to same conclusion,

here I uvacha
viewtopic.php?p=2092176#p2092176

success of demonitisation will be seen if post-demonitisation incentives are good enough to encourage people to remain in the economy instead of shifting out of it. If incentives and IT reforms can go parallel then this demonitisation effort can be claimed as success. But if intent is to go digital henceforth without making any tax reforms and tax corruption then it is going to result in economic contraction and shifting of capital. So the success or failure of this exercise is yet to be decided.

MohdKav · Post by **MohdKav** » 22 Dec 2016 16:55

Sachin wrote: Then what would your recommended way of demonetization be? I hope you would not become a Thomas Issac (Fin. Min of Kerala) who has no counter solutions for any problem, but only has complaints - typical Kerala commie . In fact, it is better that people who have different thoughts also explain the rationale from their side.

There was much he could have done to increase bank compliance and banks were corrupt even before the advent of this issue. Couple of rules and regulations changed and some serious arrest made before Nov 8th, would have made the bankers think twice during Demo. Thomas Issac is and will always be an idiot.

What are those? You already mentioned the use of fake accounts etc. And how could that be countered?

I have already explained, I dont know how to close them because I am not in the system. But I know people who have benefited because of it. So they do exist, which you are also quite aware.

My understanding is that Modi's government wants their tax dues. Their idea is not to put 1000s inside prisons, and then feed them. Once the money comes in, then it is pure politics. The government would know how to use it best, and as a political party BJP would ensure such schemes would show them in positive light. To put it frankly; this operation is more like that of a "shake down" by police officials on hoodlums and local rowdies. "You pay us your dues, and then you would be let off". Secondly, elections still are 2 years away; a day in politics is a very long day.

[/quote]

Whats the point if you are not ready to punish tax evaders ?
Whats the point if a lot of money is not made by this exercise by the central government, which can be used for infrastructure. I would like the widening of NH-17, thank you.
Positives for Demo, as claimed during the initial days, have dwindled considerably
Also, I dont think it is good for India to have political party with all the money.

MohdKav · Post by **MohdKav** » 22 Dec 2016 16:57

SaraLax wrote:
No.

I get the feeling that if you (habal) or MohdKav were in a position of political power (like Mamata or Kejriwal) or in IAS babu positions - they would attempt to actively derail the process of the Central government controlling corruption & bringing in the rightful taxes to government, by sabotaging it in some way or the other.

.

I dont even know how to reply to this without attracting the ban hammer. I am same as Kejriwal, I am some corrupt person because I have a different view point.

MohdKav · Post by **MohdKav** » 22 Dec 2016 16:58

Sachin,

I am enjoying the raids on Cooperative banks. But it is many ways quite futile in the large of scheme of things.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 22 Dec 2016 17:44

I think what MohdKav wants to see is likes of Mullah-yum and la-loo locked by heavy chains and being dragged by police jeep heading straight to local police thana, followed by trucks loaded with cash in old notes. All in perfect phillmy eestyle.

Needless to say it's not gonna happen. So effectively he will remain unsatisfied forever. So let's not give him even more pain and move on.

MohdKav · Post by **MohdKav** » 22 Dec 2016 17:48

Why go for Muluyam, there are many little mulayam running around in India, in thousands. Tax evaders should be caught. If you are not catching anyone, and people are converting money with ease. Then the only looser is the common man and the honest man.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2016 17:49

MohdKav wrote:
shiv wrote:MohdKav your opinions are fine as far as I am concerned, but applying labels like people in cocoons and chinbot to others who see the event from different eyes add an unnecessary dimension.
You dont seem to have any issue as majority on this forum, to call the very handful of people as 'commie's, black money hoarder, anti national etc. I am sure it adds unncessary dimension when I am accused with such silly terms. Which you yourself have seen through the pages. You can see a similar term used twice in this very page against me,

That is a fair point. In my defence I can only say that I have only been reading your posts and not others angry or abusive replies to you

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 22 Dec 2016 17:57

Dent on growth will be bigger than RBI's estimates: Nomura

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 540_1.html

Damage to India's economic growth is likely to be bigger than the RBI's estimates, as there could be a sharper slowdown in the near-term as cash shortage is likely to extend into the first quarter of next year, says a Nomura report.

"We concur with the RBI's view that the impact of demonetisation is likely to be transitory. However, with the cash shortage spilling over into Q1 2017, our leading indicators are pointing to a sharper slowdown in near-term growth," the Japanese financial services major said in a research note.

Nomura further said, "As such, we expect the growth damage to be larger than the RBI's estimates".

The report also said November's CPI readings suggest that demonetisation contributed 25-30 bps to the fall in headline CPI inflation via lower perishable item prices, slightly more than the RBI's estimate of 10-15 bps, and most core inflation measures eased by 20 bps in November.

"In this backdrop, and barring any major global disruption, we believe growth and inflation readings will be supportive of policy easing," it said.

Nomura expects the RBI to cut the repo rate by 25 bps to 6 per cent in February and stay on hold thereafter, once the transitory effects start to fade.

On December 7, RBI kept interest rates unchanged despite calls for lowering it while it slashed the economic growth projection by half a per cent to 7.1 in the first policy review post demonetisation.

The next monetary policy meet is on February 8.

Demonetisation: RBI infused into system only 5.92 lakh crore till Dec 19

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 247_1.html

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 22 Dec 2016 18:00

Neela wrote:And then there are people who get on with it.

Apparently Amul has created 5.4 million savings accounts for milk men who supplly milk to the company.
https://twitter.com/RenukaJain6/status/ ... 8930841600

The figure looks suspect but even if 10% of the stated figure is true, it shows large organizations and huge numbers of citizens from rural areas are willing to adapt.

5.4 million milk suppliers is not at all an exaggerated figure. It could well be even more! Much more.
Also, Amul is not just Amul dairy. Now it's the coordinator of all the cooperative dairies of Gujarat. 5.4 million could well be just Amuls suppliers only.

Rishi Verma wrote:
Marten wrote: Are you serious Rishi?
I am very serious, and saying from experience. Aadhar cards too are being given to Bangladeshis with (fake) Indian domicile.

It's OT but with fake ID it's easy to open bank accounts. And one with fake ID can also have multiple fake IDs.

You are right. Having multiple PAN, Aadhar, Voter ID is pretty normal. But I'm happy to share that these unruly days are being numbered. One year from now and hardly any ordinary person would be able to fake his identity like they do today. Not saying it will be impossible, but very difficult.

How? There is a project already running on this lines but as far as I know, it hasn't been reported publicly yet, so I'm bit hesitant to share. But it's not a "secret" as well. In a nutshell, unique identity of everyone is already being built and we'll see the result somewhere in second half of next year. If anyone has seen any public report on this line then please share.

Those who have laundered money in different accounts with different identities will not be spared either. The wrongdoers will be chased down to their last account and last rupee.

One thing I can say with confidence is that it's NEVER going to be the "business as usual" again. That man is on a mission. The sooner we understand this, the better for us.

MohdKav · Post by **MohdKav** » 22 Dec 2016 18:10

shiv wrote:That is a fair point. In my defence I can only say that I have only been reading your posts and not others angry or abusive replies to you

And in my defense, I have read your posts for nearly a decade and half. I have accorded you my utmost respect. But while you have asked me not to name call, I havent seen you do it in my defense for the past one month to others.

There is absolutely no space here for people to talk about the way demon is carried on here in BR.As long as it is High fiving and repeating government circulars and mouth pieces, people are not even ready to look at the loopholes, even when data and reality would tell them otherwise. Could it be done better, was there need to put better process to be placed before (not Currency printing ) before November 8th.
I will be absolutely honest with you, demon has had tremendous impact on ground on business ( legitimate white ) and benefits, I cant see any ( especially when people all around me are converting money with ease) . People who are getting their money converted arent even that well connected or powerful, your average doctor, lawyer, small time businessman. People in BR, majority of whom come from a particular class of people and ofcourse ideological soldered on, cant see what is happening and even when shown refuses to acknowledge it.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 Dec 2016 18:13

In respect of the KYC norms not being followed up by Bank -

1. In most of the cases, it is Axis Bank as per the reports. New Gen Banks are a problem as far as the KYC goes. This is a systemic problem and the same was taken advantage of by hoarders.

2. Co-Op Banks do not have serious KYC norms anywhere. Most of them are run by politicos and now they will come under serious examination by RBI and other authorities.

As I posted before, no one can predict nature, and extent of the benefits to the nation as this is a one of an incident. A look into the sectors wherein cash transactions is the norm and on the follow-up steps on increasing e-transactions, etc. therein is a must. Further, IT reforms is a must now. One can not have a situation wherein only salaried class pays IT and rest mostly do not pay or pay a pittance. A relook into wealth tax particularly on real estate may also be needed to stop the huge amount of "Investment purchases" which only are contributing to the price increase to absurd levels.

MohdKav · Post by **MohdKav** » 22 Dec 2016 18:16

idea should be to reduce the number of tax brackets and increases base. I have no clue why we are continuing Stamp Duty? What are we, the british empire ?

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 22 Dec 2016 18:21

The GoI did screw it up to an extent. What they are doing now should have done an year back. Don't tell me that they were not planning this for atleast the last 6 months.

So even if they started to move 6 months back, they could have -

a. reduced service taxes on digital payments
b. some kind of data subsidy on rural mobile connections
c. mandatory UPI or USSD for availing farm subsidies or DCT
d. tax benefits for business going completely digital
e. all central govt departments going cashless - including Central Universities & even PSUs - imagine if all PSUs said to their vendors, show me atleast 10% of your turnover in digital payments - such a huge game changer

and so much more could have done to ensure this kind of chaos for cash never happened.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 22 Dec 2016 18:22

MohdKav wrote:Whats the point if you are not ready to punish tax evaders ?

The punishment is more monetory in nature (i.e paying tax dues, plus heavy penalty). Sending people to jail may be have a "feel good" factor, but that is just not the only end for this exercise.

Whats the point if a lot of money is not made by this exercise by the central government, which can be used for infrastructure. I would like the widening of NH-17, thank you.

Let the people around NH-17 give their land to the government at the fair price shared by the government. If they cannot part with the land, the highway remains a small road. We really can't help it.

Also, I dont think it is good for India to have political party with all the money.

I agree, but then other political parties have not just rolled up and died right? Let them also work hard to get money.

I am enjoying the raids on Cooperative banks. But it is many ways quite futile in the large of scheme of things.

Can you also explain why? And then what exactly is NOT futile? Allowing some Mullahs in Malappuram to just bring in hawala money and then go on a land purchasing spree (and then try their Jehadi schemes of things)? I am more in favour of this scheme, because some one did try to do some thing good for the country. At least in my organisation, a person who makes an honest try to improve things is rated better than various "scientists", "eminent citizens" who just give sermons and do nothing.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 22 Dec 2016 18:41

MohdKav wrote:idea should be to reduce the number of tax brackets and increases base. I have no clue why we are continuing Stamp Duty? What are we, the british empire ?

Continue please.
Ive had no qualms with your posts mostly. And ignore those barbs.

The only issue I have is that you dictate terms on whom and how they should be taken to task , else you term it a failure of demo.

The money ( tax) earned by Govt from volunatry disclosure before the onslaught was 55000 crores.
The next step was to declare 500 and 1000 tender illegal. This is an ongoing process.
Here, the govt has already sending notices to all those who deposited more than 2.5L and earning due tax on above that value.
It has also noticed that fake accounts are being created - it is acting on them.
it noticed that many people are depositing multiple times - it "fingered" them.
It is acting on Co-op banks and asking them to comply to standards for tracking
It has created a email account for tip-offs
ED is following up and raiding the big fish.
The govt now has all the time in the world to scrutinize bank accounts.

A decent picture will emerge only when the govt has had time. IT dept must analyze 100s of 1000s of accounts. But in any case, the tax the govt will earn will not be less than 55000 crores.
Thats close to $8 billion.
Not a small sum.

So where exactly is the govt found wanting. Please specify.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 22 Dec 2016 18:47

I am aware of the income tax email to report BM. Thanks anyway

Am departing Goa tonight for PUne, then tomorrow night for Wardha and then Pulgaon (the ammo factory place ) . Death in the family.

Went to ICICI today to load up on some low denomination notes for the trip. Pulgaon is a smallish village. Bank manager told me that fake Rs 2000 notes are already in circulation.

We need those polymer notes fast.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 22 Dec 2016 18:49

Seeing the negativity around demon I am compelled to post here. I was very happy to read Rudradev ji's post and others supporting the demon discussion and wanted to make sure I post here my complete support even thought I get to lose quite a bit of money from this demon but who hasn't? We all are willing for the small sacrifices and inconvenience for the nation's and Dharma's sake. When you support someone doing Raja Dharma (Modi ji) as a ruler we must all support it no matter what. Supporting Dharma will earn us good karma from what I understand, if you needed a selfish motive just in case you are not convinced by what the Govt of the day is doing.

I am overjoyed, overjoyed beyond bounds. I get to lose a sizable sum but I am still overjoyed, why? All the naysayers, you ask why? To that in a minute but some context first.

1. I pay several lakhs of income tax every year. I purposely declare the interest income from my bank accounts, shares sales, the income from my apartment rent from tenant etc etc. Even in those cases where I am least likely to get caught I still make sure the money is declared and taxes paid. Close friends and relatives have scolded me for being a sentimental fool with sayings like "A fool and his money are easily separated" etc etc. I bought a small piece of ground in Bangalore and I insisted to the broker that I would declare the whole amount of the transaction for registration and pay all the taxes/charges must to his consternation. I paid the previous owner by cheque who grumbled a lot but he had no other option than to sell.
2. I have a resale property in Chennai for which there were quite a sizeable number of buyers last year, about 60-70% of the amount in black. I kept putting off the sale as I did not want to have any sort of black money. Now all the buyers have disappeared and the only one who is interested (cheque and part loan) is quoting a price 30% lesser than from last year. I will put off the sale for the next few years which means I wont have sufficient capital to purchase a new flat in Bangalore but what the heck I am so overjoyed by what I see that I can live with it.
3. My landlord in Bangalore, a very wealthy and connected political chap who has some 100 apartments to his name had issues with me paying the rent in cash. He said he will charge me extra for paying in white and I asked him to get lost and I would find another apartment to which he reluctantly agreed to rent me the apartment. He sensed my nature and took the advance amount in white

. He provided me the rent receipts and PAN card after a lot of persuasion and threats of vacating.

A few individuals I know of, including this landlord have all ridiculed me in the past. I was to believe that I was an utter fool who was not street smart and no sense of ownership to my Family and all the talk of responsibility towards society as a willing taxpayer was hogwash. I was told of "how to escape tax" and several means to do it, no doubt, not may of those means would have passed the smell test of legality.

Now for the joy part, I am making it a point to regularly meet these same folks these days on a regular basis. The awesome look on their faces and gone is the cocky tone, its all subdued and defeated in content. My landlord is a sight to see, tense all the time. Rumours float that he bit the bullet and declared it all in the recent disclosure scheme. He tells me that he had many a sleepless night and no longer wants to carry it on his head. He didnt disclose any details but his tone meant that his earlier approach to paying tax isnt something he is keen on for the future

. He did bring up not paying rent by online transactions into the future but if he insists then I will be vacating this apartment for good. Some of the friends/relatives are still scrambling to fix the situation but got to hear that most of them are going with the disclosure route. One individual is still of the same old mindset, whats that government email ID again? I will have some emails to send now.

I have had content nights of sleep and a joy that makes me proud as a tax paying Bharatiya citizen. Yes, I get to lose some money and had long wait times in ATMs but what the heck its for a larger good. Its my land's Dharma which has motivated me all along and the battle against black money needs all our support. I am pretty sure all the fools who think they got away with this demon drive will all be caught at some point during the next year when the RBI algorithms sniff them out. I am sure they will be caught in the next set of tough measures that the Govt will implement next year. I am sure GST will ring the death knell on top of it. Our next generation will have it good. Our perseverance and sacrifices will make sure they inherit an economy and system which is clean and black money is something unheard of.

If a single Demon drive can send these BM hoarders to such a tizzy I only wonder what the next set of measures will do. Go for them Modi ji, go for them in full earnest!

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 22 Dec 2016 18:53

Rs2.35 cr In New Currency Seized from Assam Biz Men

Buggers have been named and shamed.

The owner of the business establishment, Amulya Das and Tapan Das were being interrogated by income tax sleuths.

"Though the duo claimed that the money was legal, they are yet to produce documents to substantiate their claims," sources added.

The two businessmen trade in wholesale market of chewing tobacco, stationery goods.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 22 Dec 2016 19:02

It may seem like OT, but here is a guy born in Pakistan, whose visa has expired.. But...

his parents are Indians, as are his wife and three children, and that he has all important documents, such as PAN, Aadhar, voter ID and ration cards, and a domicile certificate.

Link

MohdKav · Post by **MohdKav** » 22 Dec 2016 19:13

Sachin wrote: The punishment is more monetory in nature (i.e paying tax dues, plus heavy penalty). Sending people to jail may be have a "feel good" factor, but that is just not the only end for this exercise.

Well currently till now, that aint happening, especially with people who have exchanged their black money with physical brand new 100s, 500s and 2000s

Let the people around NH-17 give their land to the government at the fair price shared by the government. If they cannot part with the land, the highway remains a small road. We really can't help it.

Unfortunately that is not the case, the government hasnt announced at what prices they will acquire ( also they employ acquisation laws differently now, they freeze land through acquisition laws, and then force/negotiate the price with land owner ( like usual transaction not like acquisition, therefore the citizen cant go back to court and ask for more money. Also people are definitely not going to sell for fair value/circle rate So since the government wants the land, let them come out with the price. People have had their land frozen for 7 years. Its not a joke.
Also it was communist who were throwing the spanner in the works, but the CM has mentioned NH17 in all his speech's about infrastructure. Which I would assume is a positive signal.

I agree, but then other political parties have not just rolled up and died right? Let them also work hard to get money.

Imagine a situation where BJP launders all its black money, while the others cant? It doesnt bode well for Indian democracy.

Can you also explain why? And then what exactly is NOT futile? Allowing some Mullahs in Malappuram to just bring in hawala money and then go on a land purchasing spree (and then try their Jehadi schemes of things)? I am more in favour of this scheme, because some one did try to do some thing good for the country. At least in my organisation, a person who makes an honest try to improve things is rated better than various "scientists", "eminent citizens" who just give sermons and do nothing.

let us also accept a lot of Mullah's made their money in Gulf doing some good business. Trying to do something, while burning down the house. India is not a guinea pig. If he wants to fix the system, which he should and I would want that. I am flabbergasted that hey didnt fix up any loopholes before DEMO.

Schmidt · Post by **Schmidt** » 22 Dec 2016 19:15

Yogi_G wrote:Seeing the negativity around demon I am compelled to post here. I was very happy to read Rudradev ji's post and others supporting the demon discussion and wanted to make sure I post here my complete support even thought I get to lose quite a bit of money from this demon but who hasn't? We all are willing for the small sacrifices and inconvenience for the nation's and Dharma's sake. When you support someone doing Raja Dharma (Modi ji) as a ruler we must all support it no matter what. Supporting Dharma will earn us good karma from what I understand, if you needed a selfish motive just in case you are not convinced by what the Govt of the day is doing.

2. I have a resale property in Chennai for which there were quite a sizeable number of buyers last year, about 60-70% of the amount in black. I kept putting off the sale as I did not want to have any sort of black money. Now all the buyers have disappeared and the only one who is interested (cheque and part loan) is quoting a price 30% lesser than from last year. I will put off the sale for the next few years which means I wont have sufficient capital to purchase a new flat in Bangalore but what the heck I am so overjoyed by what I see that I can live with it.
If a single Demon drive can send these BM hoarders to such a tizzy I only wonder what the next set of measures will do. Go for them Modi ji, go for them in full earnest!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very commendable attitude , Yogi G ji , kudos

I am just confused about Point 2 - the money offered to you is black ony for the buyer
If you are willing to disclose it and account for it and pay the due Capital gains tax / styamp duty etc , then it becomes white to the authorities

Of course if they trace it to your buyer he would have to account for it - was that the issue ?

But how would he know your intention to declare and pay tax on the sale value ?

You have every right to get the payment in cash or by cheque/bank transfer , and so does the buyer.

It is only the declaration part that determines whether it is black or white

Or am I missing something ??

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 22 Dec 2016 20:03

suryag wrote:earthquake reply speech by NaMo

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 22 Dec 2016 20:07

Schmidt wrote:
Yogi_G wrote:Seeing the negativity around demon I am compelled to post here. I was very happy to read Rudradev ji's post and others supporting the demon discussion and wanted to make sure I post here my complete support even thought I get to lose quite a bit of money from this demon but who hasn't? We all are willing for the small sacrifices and inconvenience for the nation's and Dharma's sake. When you support someone doing Raja Dharma (Modi ji) as a ruler we must all support it no matter what. Supporting Dharma will earn us good karma from what I understand, if you needed a selfish motive just in case you are not convinced by what the Govt of the day is doing.

2. I have a resale property in Chennai for which there were quite a sizeable number of buyers last year, about 60-70% of the amount in black. I kept putting off the sale as I did not want to have any sort of black money. Now all the buyers have disappeared and the only one who is interested (cheque and part loan) is quoting a price 30% lesser than from last year. I will put off the sale for the next few years which means I wont have sufficient capital to purchase a new flat in Bangalore but what the heck I am so overjoyed by what I see that I can live with it.
If a single Demon drive can send these BM hoarders to such a tizzy I only wonder what the next set of measures will do. Go for them Modi ji, go for them in full earnest!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very commendable attitude , Yogi G ji , kudos

I am just confused about Point 2 - the money offered to you is black ony for the buyer
If you are willing to disclose it and account for it and pay the due Capital gains tax / styamp duty etc , then it becomes white to the authorities

Of course if they trace it to your buyer he would have to account for it - was that the issue ?

But how would he know your intention to declare and pay tax on the sale value ?

You have every right to get the payment in cash or by cheque/bank transfer , and so does the buyer.

It is only the declaration part that determines whether it is black or white

Or am I missing something ??

Thanks ji, I never looked at finding out these details. I think all of what you said is true but I am in principle hesitant to be part of any transaction where I have to deal with any form of black money, even if I can be on the right side of the law in handling it. I kept waiting in the hope that there would be some buyer like me who would do it all in white and there would be no hassle. I let go of some tenants similarly who insisted on paying the advance amount for my apartment in black, I finally found one who was a IT-Vity guy willing to pay the advance amount through online transaction. I have to find out if I have to pay any tax to govt for the duration the amount is in my account until he vacates. I have already paid the tax on interest earned from my account.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 22 Dec 2016 20:08

Schmidt saar, the agreement value will be for the white only portion. It will be up to seller to prove his undisclosed income received in cash is not being passed off as land sale receipt. In short, if you accept cash, it is your burden to prove it is legal. And we cannot in such circumstances.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2016 20:09

Sachin wrote:
Whats the point if a lot of money is not made by this exercise by the central government, which can be used for infrastructure. I would like the widening of NH-17, thank you.
Let the people around NH-17 give their land to the government at the fair price shared by the government. If they cannot part with the land, the highway remains a small road. We really can't help it.
.

Ironically there is a very successful (in Gujarat) Gujarat model here where a fair deal is reached between those who lose land and the government that claims the land.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2016 20:24

Schmidt wrote: Of course if they trace it to your buyer he would have to account for it - was that the issue ?

But how would he know your intention to declare and pay tax on the sale value ?

You have every right to get the payment in cash or by cheque/bank transfer , and so does the buyer.

My reply here is not out of any direct knowledge, but if Yogi accepts say 60% as cheque and 40% as cash and declares it the IT people will want to know
1. Why he took 40% in cash
2. What is the proof that the 40% is actually from the same sale (and not other undisclosed income) because the actual sale documents will reflect only the cheque part and not the cash part
3. The IT people may ask for and accept a bribe from that cash which is probably routine in such "odd" cases

Yogi will actually be incriminating himself unnecessarily in laundering someone else's black money even if he declares it if the recorded value of the transaction, and hence the taxes paid will be smaller than the actual amount paid.

If the buyer agrees to pay part in cash and part by cheque it will be far better to demand the whole amount as a consolidated bank draft. Obviously the buyer will then have to make a draft that is over Rs 50,000 which includes the black money for which he will need KYC and a PAN number

Schmidt · Post by **Schmidt** » 22 Dec 2016 20:28

Marten wrote:Schmidt saar, the agreement value will be for the white only portion. It will be up to seller to prove his undisclosed income received in cash is not being passed off as land sale receipt. In short, if you accept cash, it is your burden to prove it is legal. And we cannot in such circumstances.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup , that's true

I had assumed that the full sale value would be declared in the sale deed

Otherwise there would be an inconsistency in the ITR vs sale deed

And no saar please

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 22 Dec 2016 20:51

MohdKav wrote:Well currently till now, that aint happening, especially with people who have exchanged their black money with physical brand new 100s, 500s and 2000s

The demonitisation launched in Nov 8th, and today it is the fag end of December. Do you think our justice system is so quick to catch hold of a tax evader, and within next 24 hours make him pay the fine and issue him a receipt? People have been caught and the next process would be based on written down law. Just because some one wants it that way, the caught tax evaders cannot be put in front of firing squad the next day morning. This is not some commie dictatorship (no, not yet).

Imagine a situation where BJP launders all its black money, while the others cant? It doesnt bode well for Indian democracy.

How can we arrive at a conclusion that only BJP was able to launder black money? Every politician has tried it, some succeeded some got caught. The "money bags" caught in Karnataka for example, are said to be close to the ruling Congress government.

let us also accept a lot of Mullah's made their money in Gulf doing some good business.

But the Mullahs did not utilise the money, in a way it should be properly utilised in India. They did not want to pay any taxes to Indian government, their own country's government. Instead they wanted to misuse their own money to further sinister agendas of other countries just because of "common religion" concept. So now it is time to make corrective measures. As for me, even if one Mullah looses his hawala money and illegally acquired property it gives a very high level of satisfaction. It is some thing better than nothing. In fact I laughed out when the old woman was caught with FICN worth Rs.35,000. And as an excuse she said, her son used to use the hawala route for 15-20 years!! And yes, knowing how the Indian laws work, I don't see the old woman getting sentenced any time soon.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 22 Dec 2016 21:15

Ashish @Ashi_IndiaToday
IT found Rs 7 Crore unaccounted cash in a Cab driver's account. In return driver agreed to pay taxes under #PMGKY #Hyderabad

If somebody has used this chap's account to launder money, then that money is gone and this cab driver may have hit a jackpot. Pay 3.5 crore tax, 1.75 crores locked up in a bond for 4 years and he immediately gets 1.75 crores. తంతే బూరెల గంపలో పడడమంటే ఇదే కాబోలు. Lucky chap.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 22 Dec 2016 21:49

Two Peacefuls Caught with Indian Currency at Indo-Bangladesh Border

BSF in action too!

A BSF spokesman said that the personnel carried out an operation on Hill Road and apprehended two Indian nationals, Nasib Miya, (23 yrs) and Bilal Hossain, (22 yrs), both residents of Pubergram village at Mankachar in Assam along with the notes.

"The apprehended people revealed that the seized currency belongs to one Sanjay Agarwal, a cloth merchant of Mankachar, and the consignment of money was to be handed over to one coal exporter, Lophu Sangma of Balaji Coal export company of Gasuapara," the spokesman said.

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 22 Dec 2016 21:55

MohdKav wrote:The government must earn out of this exercise a substantially amount over the cost of demo ( 1.34 lac crore's est.) . Anything less than that is unacceptable. Government should be able to catch atleast 50% of thieving thugs, which in reality they have no intention of doing. They are busy giving escape routes for 'their' people

Do you have any proof or just the same insinuations that congis and aaptards have been saying?

nandakumar wrote:....That I was able to exchange a Rs 2000 note for a Rs 100 worth of purchase was perhaps not as much of a surprise as what she did before that. She passed on the note to a third lady selling flowers to check if the note was authentic and not a fake. When I protested at the insinuation she claimed that she had been duped by another customer some days back and she can't afford to take chances. Was she saying it just to assuage my hurt feelings or there has indeed been a successful attempt at passing off a fake Rs 2000 note (perhaps a crude fake, but a fake note nonetheless)? I couldn't be very sure.

You shouldn't feel offended. If anything, you should feel happy. Everyone should be checking for counterfeits. In Europe, if you present a £20 or equivalent at any shop, it will be checked. It isn't personal. Discouraging this allows these counterfeits to float around.

Manish_Sharma wrote:=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq6sK-EGzBY

Could someone post a summary of what NM is saying .. Hindi no speak

Guys.. DeMon is almost complete.. cribbing about "difficulties" is getting old and tiring. Let us now focus on what the results are. While anecdotal evidence is useful, you cannot necessarily come to conclusions from them. Sure there will be leakages, but people will be a bit more hesitant going forward (especially if NM continues applying the pressure). Having only 1% of the working population pay tax is simply laughable - if India is to have any hopes of becoming a prosperous country, everyone has to contribute their share. I'm happy for no one to pay tax, just not some/most.

As far as the raids are concerned and "big fish not being caught" - I very much doubt you will see any of the truly biggies get caught. The more of the stuff you have, the better your ability to hide it, abroad or otherwise. For this, laws need to be changed, enforcement needs to happen. Digitisation will make it more difficult, that is for sure.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2016 22:12

MohdKav wrote:
shiv wrote:That is a fair point. In my defence I can only say that I have only been reading your posts and not others angry or abusive replies to you
And in my defense, I have read your posts for nearly a decade and half. I have accorded you my utmost respect. But while you have asked me not to name call, I havent seen you do it in my defense for the past one month to others.

A little correction. I did not ask you not to name call. I only observed that the names you were using indicated anger which I believe reveals more of your state of mind than is necessary when you claim you are merely stating your opinion.
Here are my exact words

MohdKav your opinions are fine as far as I am concerned, but applying labels like people in cocoons and chinbot to others who see the event from different eyes add an unnecessary dimension.

The unnecessary dimension if I may explain is showing feelings which only evoke Schadenfreude among those who read it. That is why I was amused. Clearly you are letting on that this is one button of yours that can be pressed to get you worked up. Always bad form on the Internet. I did not want to write this explanation but there you are. I rarely "defend" anyone who calls someone names but I do detect moods.

MohdKav wrote: There is absolutely no space here for people to talk about the way demon is carried on here in BR.As long as it is High fiving and repeating government circulars and mouth pieces, people are not even ready to look at the loopholes, even when data and reality would tell them otherwise. Could it be done better, was there need to put better process to be placed before (not Currency printing ) before November 8th.
I will be absolutely honest with you, demon has had tremendous impact on ground on business ( legitimate white ) and benefits, I cant see any ( especially when people all around me are converting money with ease) . People who are getting their money converted arent even that well connected or powerful, your average doctor, lawyer, small time businessman. People in BR, majority of whom come from a particular class of people and of course ideological soldered on, cant see what is happening and even when shown refuses to acknowledge it.

If I may use an analogy - if you have 20 people who see a horse and one person who sees a donkey, the debate is going to be centered around the features of the horse. Not the donkey.

You are seeing people laundering money "all around you". The donkey is in full view to you. Others are not seeing that. If you choose to accuse them of blindness, stupidity or bias - it is your problem, not theirs

Could the demonetization have been done better? Here I have a definite viewpoint. The demonetization was a process - conversion of notes is still going on as I write this. The question of whether it could have been done better is moot until the entire process is over and done with and the results analysed. But you don't seem to want to wait. That is fine, but complaining that others are "high fiving" and not thinking like you smacks of an angry man. Why are you so angry?

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 22 Dec 2016 22:35

habal wrote:For many people in India keeping 10 lakhs of cash @ home is sensible and practical.

habal, Looks like you are around too many BM hoarders and sick people. You need to come out. Seriously, Rs 10 lakhs as rainy money in the house is a joke for vast number of people. Don't extrapolate this for rest of the 99+% of the population. For business people to keep Rs 10 lakhs or more on cash on hand is completely acceptable. But advocating to hoard Rs 10 lakh as sensible and practical for common man is preposterous. Spending Rs 3-4 lakhs on medical procedure just like that is again an exception by a very tiny population. On a lighter note, let us hope demonetization make them have better life style and stay away from hospitals. With digitization, even this tiny population have alternatives rather than hoard money. Let us not exaggerate failure of Demonetization with exceptions.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 22 Dec 2016 22:47

Regarding sale transaction partly in cash and partly in cheque, I had an experience. I was the power of attorney holder for the sale of a property belonging to a relative of mine, some years ago. The buyer wanted to pay the sale consideration in cash and cheque. The implication was that the sale deed would be for the lower consideration. My relative wanted to know if that was okay. I said if he wanted to file an IT return with the full sale consideration (not that I would have consented to any other arrangement since I was the power of attorney holder) and he said he would declare the whole consideration and pay tax on it. So the sale went through. From an IT perspective, it seemed a straight forward deal. At worst it would be an evasion of stamp duty on a transaction of real state. But the sale deed was well above the guideline value. For the State Government authorities to prove that there has been an under declaration they would have to rely on IT authority evidence of declaration of income. I am not sure if they have the legal authority to commandeer that. Any way there was no blow back. I had completely forgotten about it. But some years later, I was summoned by the IT authorities for a hearing on my return of income for that assessment year. My income consisted of salary and a small interst income both of which were accounted for. But the IT officer kept asking me if I sold any property and I kept answering saying No. In exasperation he said we have information that there is a sale deed registered with your PAN card of a property in Chennai from such and such a Sub Registrar office. That is when I realised the background. I was able to get the details of the return of income from my relative and the assessment order of the juridictional IT Officer which had disclosed the capital gains from the transaction on the cash plus cheque amount. As I saw it it is no crime to accept cash as that was perfectly legal tender. As to the possible evasion of stamp duty, I dont know if I or my relative is liable as I am not sure whether there is a concept of a representative assessee under stamp duty law. As for the purchaser, there could be a problem from his IT assessment. But it boils down to a case of me claiming that I received X amount and the buyer insisting that he paid X minus delta. How will this be rsolved? I dont know.

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Dec 2016 22:53

Dasari garu, these are not exceptions, because I have been exceptionally unlucky in this aspect. Last 3 years have been pretty miserable as far as myself and hospitals are concerned. My MIL & FIL and close friend have gone through same grind of end-stage liver cirhosis and auto-immune hepatitis end stage auto immune lung disorder (same as what Pataudi sr had) One of my andhra friends crashed his Innova while going for lecture and needed multiple surgeries and plastic surgeries in apollo chennai, he was there for a month, half the time in critical ICU. Total bill was Rs. 20 lakh in last case, 7-8 lakh in first 2 cases. In both first cases, it did not end well and hospitalization was 2 months.

In current scenario how do you think these would come to pass.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 22 Dec 2016 23:04

Tweet from today from MoF

Income Tax Dept through NMS has identified 67.54 lakh potential non-filers who have carried out high value transactions in F.Y. 2014-15
1:18 PM - 22 Dec 2016 from New Delhi, India

This is for FY 2014 - 2015
Can someone explain how MoF could have arrived at this finding?
Have they scanned bank transactions vs tax filed (or not) against the same PAN number?

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 22 Dec 2016 23:06

"Expect 2 lakh crores to not return to banks and be extinguished; 50,000 crores from tax, penalty on deposited BM" - #blackmoney:@bibekdebroy #DeMonetisation #DeMonetisation, from NDTV.

This is from nitiayog member Bibek Debroy. If it is true, the 1st objective of Demonetization would be achieved. The rest will follow, the most important being the digitization. To avoid any extension or any excuse from opposition and BM hoarders, I hope govt comes up with some agreement with bank employees to keep banks open longer for the last 2 days of the Dec 30 deadline.

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 22 Dec 2016 23:15

habal wrote:Dasari garu, these are not exceptions, because I have been exceptionally unlucky in this aspect. Last 3 years have been pretty miserable as far as myself and hospitals are concerned. My MIL & FIL and close friend have gone through same grind of end-stage liver cirhosis and auto-immune hepatitis end stage auto immune lung disorder (same as what Pataudi sr had) One of my andhra friends crashed his Innova while going for lecture and needed multiple surgeries and plastic surgeries in apollo chennai, he was there for a month, half the time in critical ICU. Total bill was Rs. 20 lakh in last case, 7-8 lakh in first 2 cases. In both first cases, it did not end well and hospitalization was 2 months.

In current scenario how do you think these would come to pass.

habal, Apoligies if my post hurt your feelings. I completely understand where you are coming from. Hopefully all hospitals go into digitization and we don't need to carry cash. At least that is what CBN is saying in AP. More than catching current hoarders, we all want to prevent this happening. Digital payments for anything higher than Rs 10000 is what our goal should be. Hopefully we get there in 5 years.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 22 Dec 2016 23:38

MohdKav wrote:That is not the only way, there are multiple ways. the money being is laundered directly from the RBI and Bank chest. Banks are hoarding cash just like people are doing, they are not giving any to their own customers. One of banker's for example only gives out Rs.6000 at one go and for a week for ordinary people even if he can give more, While important customers get much more.

Money is also laundered through fake accounts. I dont think much time has been spend here on how money laundering is happening, people can only do that if they come out of their cocoon and chinbot behavior about this whole saga.

Alright, I'm going to put a stop to this nonsense.

Make any claims you like about random nebulous individuals . But when you make claims about Indian public and state institutions, that requires evidence. You don't get to randomly claim 'banks do this, RBI does that' WITHOUT EVIDENCE. And no, 'everyone knows this', 'I heard about this from my maid's cat' are not evidence.

Short of evidence provided, you'll be banned for trolling.