Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 28 Dec 2016 20:20

I think GST will have a significant impact on this tax evasion and cashless business. Input tax credits would Joe be a great incentive to operate above the line, however, it probably won't impact vegetable dealers.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 28 Dec 2016 20:24

Wifey buys veggies from a fancy shop , which I personally don't like. I'd rather get this stuff from roadside vendors. But this guy has now started accepting cards via Payumoney swipe machine.

She bought stuff worth 260 from there and he happily swiped the card at no extra charge. Showed her the amount deducted on screen as there was no printed receipt. He had started using this machine a few days after the announcement and it has been working well without any issues.

I was too offered this machine a few months back but refused as there were other options. But might consider getting this as a backup if charges are lower. Both Paytm and Payumoney have spent considierable effort and money in promotions since beginning of this year. Small vendors in various areas in Delhi were approached by Paytm and given code stickers long before November. But only a few business owners were using it . Now all these Paytm stickers are displayed prominently almost everywhere. Looks like Paytm benefited a lot more than Payumoney and other similar services due to their focus on offline promotion. Very interesting.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 28 Dec 2016 20:35

rahulm wrote:I think GST will have a significant impact on this tax evasion and cashless business. Input tax credits would Joe be a great incentive to operate above the line, however, it probably won't impact vegetable dealers.

GST will not have any effect on the behaviour. Thievery has become a national character.

OT but a good example: Its not the netas or millionaire / billionaire fatcats that steal fans and mirrors from our trains.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 28 Dec 2016 20:46

SRoy wrote: OT but a good example: Its not the netas or millionaire / billionaire fatcats that steal fans and mirrors from our trains.

OT Instead they steal the whole train and much more!

(Not saying stealing fans and bulbs are justified)

/OT

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 28 Dec 2016 20:48

Dipanker wrote:
SRoy wrote: OT but a good example: Its not the netas or millionaire / billionaire fatcats that steal fans and mirrors from our trains.
OT Instead they steal the whole train and much more!

You mean no one left out?

That's why it's a national character.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 28 Dec 2016 20:55

x-posted from Internal Security thread. The first set of thefts have occurred during the demonetisation drive.

Some thing is seriously fishy at Muthoot Bank. Looks like the thiefs have some kind of strange love towards Muthoot group of financial institituitions.
Gold jewellery looted from finance company in broad daylight (28th Dec, 2016)
Rajkot: Five kg gold jewellery looted from Muthoot Fincorp branch (26th Dec, 2016)
Rs 90 lakh looted from Muthoot Finance branch in Dhoraji, Gujarat (26th Dec, 2016)

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 28 Dec 2016 20:55

x-posted from Internal Security thread. The first set of thefts have occurred during the demonetisation drive.

Some thing is seriously fishy at Muthoot Bank. Looks like the thiefs have some kind of strange love towards Muthoot group of financial institituitions.
Gold jewellery looted from finance company in broad daylight (28th Dec, 2016)
Rajkot: Five kg gold jewellery looted from Muthoot Fincorp branch (26th Dec, 2016)
Rs 90 lakh looted from Muthoot Finance branch in Dhoraji, Gujarat (26th Dec, 2016)

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 28 Dec 2016 21:03

Only suspicious if cellular records for towers are not available or if CCTV footage goes missing. No way the robbers will walk free from this.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 28 Dec 2016 21:16

I understand the need for an ordinance to make the rest of old notes possession illegal. But 10-notes and jail term.. Heck my neighbour who may be erroneously thinking that I like his wife may be tempted to plant old notes in my home and call pulis.

Subdas · Post by **Subdas** » 28 Dec 2016 21:25

Business whose income is via small sized transactions will surely beat note bandi unless cash is sucked out of the system and consumers are forced to pay in e-notes. So far in veg madis, the small vegetable vendor still has cash to pay for his daily purchases and hence the stockist is making black income. Looks like demon should be repeated after every x years to cleanse the system of the accumulated black money. Or a law is framed to make any purchase above X amount in cash to be illegal.

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 28 Dec 2016 22:12

Digital payment network (like visa, Mac, Amex, discover, cup, job, rupay) and gateways like paytm are something where govt has to dominate at least in the next 5 years before they ease out.

They have to take China example. China Union Pay network was an unknown entity in 2002, but for next 10 years, protected by Govt (which made other networks impossible to work in China), it became the largest network in terms of transaction volume, just a shade behind Visa. It has overtaken all other networks. After completely dominating Chinese mkt, they only recently opened up the market to appease WTO. Now Visa and others can compete with CUP by setting up their own subsidiaries in China. There is a big lesson for India in this. The discount rate(interchange rate) on a transaction on CUP network for debit card transactions (90% of the cards in China are debit) is less than 0.6% in majority of the cases. The low end merchants in China operate on much lower margin but they all accepted it due to lower fees. Having been to China couple of times and interacted with CUP, I found that other than big hotels, tourist places, and big restaurants nobody takes anything other than CUP card.

If they leave to private enterprise like Paytm at this initial stage, digital will not grow. For an Indian based company with low operating costs, anything over 1% commission is robbery.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2016 22:18

One way to discourage cash transactions is not to have such a high proportion of high denomination notes making it inconvenient for people to carry cash

For example: imagine that the country has a total of 85 x Rs 1000 notes (Rs 85,000) + 15 X Rs 100 notes (Rs 1500) totalling Rs 86,500 in circulation

Replace that with 50 x 500 notes (Rs 25,000) + 615 X Rs 100 notes (Rs 61,500), still totalling 86,500

Also put a limit on how many Rs 500 notes one can possess - making it punishable to have more than X amount in Rs 500 notes

Of course people will cheat - but a lot of people who do not want the hassle of hoarding big notes or carrying large bundles will simply change to e-transcations. There will be some issues - some businesses can claim they get more than the legal limit of Rs 500 notes in one day - but this can be checked by various means.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 28 Dec 2016 22:23

TheNewsMinute ‏@thenewsminute 4h4 hours ago
#Breaking Since Nov8, I-T Dept has unearthed Rs 1600 crore undisclosed income from 2000 entries after raiding 2 cooperative banks in K’taka.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 28 Dec 2016 23:00

Have they raided Amanath Bank yet is the real question. Ex Railway Min (Jaffy bhai) and family plus peaceful friends are all deeply involved. Laundering is not out of the question at all. My insider leads have gone underground else would have shared juicier tidbits.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 28 Dec 2016 23:34

There are two sides to a transaction. If the traders are unwilling to go digital get the producers to comply if required with incentives. What will the traders do then? Fold their trade?

E.g. Start with Steel as an example. How many Steel producers are there in India? Start with the producers and force transparency starting from them. i.e. The next in the chain does not receive any new supplies from the producers till he accounts for ALL of his supplies with digital receipts. Keep pushing the same transparency down the chain till we hit the final guy with the steel on the street. Those who comply will get assured supply and will be able to expand their business at the cost of those who fail to comply, get no supply and get wiped out as a result. I don't know but GST might be the right place for such a rollout.

Farmers will have to be incentivised to sell their produce only on a digital platform, perhaps by linking it to loans at subsidized rate or free crop insurance or something.

If there is the will a way can always be found. One has to remember that GOI is the biggest bully, the baddest bad-ass in India.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 29 Dec 2016 00:04

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 225227.cms
Hyderabad businessman held over Rs 98 cr 'black money' deposits in banks
<---------------
HYDERABAD: A city-based businessman was arrested today for allegedly cheating and generating 'fake and fictitious' advance payment receipts to deposit "black money" to the tune of Rs 98 crore in banks following demonetisation of Rs 500 and Rs 1000 tenders last month.

<...>
Gupta runs three jewellery and bullion firms with his two sons, a daughter-in-law and another woman as directors.

Accordingly, the accused persons generated fake and fictitious advance payment receipts, purported to be acquired from about 3100 customers, for an amount of Rs 57.85 crore in name of their firm Musaddilal Gems and Jewelers Private Ltd.

They also allegedly produced fictitious advance payment receipts for Rs 40 crore in name of another firm, Vaishnavi Bullion Private Ltd, claimed to be acquired from about 2100 customers, and issued computerised receipts for the same, police said.

"All the said receipts were shown to have received between 9 PM and 12 midnight on November 8, and they subsequently got the amounts deposited at SBI, Panjagutta branch and Axis BankBSE 0.47 %, Banjara Hills branch respectively," it said.
--------------------->
Why did they not back date the receipts hanji?

BTW, One person told me that the jewellers have to account for their stock end of every month. Per this person, the most the jewellers had for hanky/panky was 8 days of stock. ALL hearsay and I haven't investigated the same.

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 29 Dec 2016 00:14

pankajs wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 225227.cms
Hyderabad businessman held over Rs 98 cr 'black money' deposits in banks

Either they are stupid or very arrogant that they can buy off officials. It was so blatant, hard to imagine how they would have escaped authorities.

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 29 Dec 2016 01:37

SRoy wrote:
sdas1645 wrote:Spoke to my vegetable merchant in Kolkata who buys from veg whole sale market. He was saying that trade continues to be in cash only but there is no cash crunch. All is well and things have improved. He does not feel that whole sale perishable market will go cash less any time soon. BTW, there are now 2 small medical stores in my corner who now has POS. Merchants that do not have POS are now offering a 2k credit line so that u can keep buying till u hit 2k and pay it with a 2k note which is now ample in ATMs. So small business in Didi land are adopting fast to this change!
Means, no matter the amount of pressure we will not go cashless, because then we will come under tax net.

Please understand, ALL IS NOT WELL. Thieving merchant class has gone back to what they do best ... Hide or totally suppress income and evade all taxes.

+10000

This is what needs to be addressed. Otherwise, any achievement will be lost within a few years

achoudhury · Post by **achoudhury** » 29 Dec 2016 02:27

Sometimes I see the kind of sweeping language that some "Rakshaks" use is nothing short of disgusting. Most of It comes from holier than thou attitude which believes that everyone else is dishonest and unpatriotic and some of it also comes from deeply held prejudices. Case in point , "Thieving Merchant class". Have we ever asked why merchant classes are not prone to paying taxes and why that is our national character ? Even Salaried class pay taxes because they have to , not because they want to. It is our national character because the entity that we pay our tax to has had a character of rent seeker for a long long time ( Muslims, British )and continued till date ( Congress, etc. ). Suddenly emergence of Modi can not change this deep seated resentment against this rent seeking entity in short time. Our "national character" also fear what if something happens to Modi and the next person is another avatar of familiar rent seekers. Hence this change in national character will take time, till then coercion will be required, cajoling will be required, verifiable demonstration of govt services will have to be established, govt processes will have to be simplified,reformed. Tax codes will have to be made more rational. All this will have to go hand in hand together and simultaneously. Good news is that is what Modi Govt is doing it all. What we need to do is to support Modi and pray that he lasts for more then 2 or even three terms so that these things can come to fruition and our "national character" changes. Or some of "Rakshaks" can continue to do chest beating condescendingly.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 29 Dec 2016 04:37

Dasari wrote:
pankajs wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 225227.cms
Hyderabad businessman held over Rs 98 cr 'black money' deposits in banks
Either they are stupid or very arrogant that they can buy off officials. It was so blatant, hard to imagine how they would have escaped authorities.

i think its a case of making mistakes in panic. or tax evasion was so easy that they have not thought this thru. anyway i was waiting for a big haul from HYD. i know many business men who have never paid a paisa in Tax.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Dec 2016 05:40

"If they leave to private enterprise like Paytm at this initial stage, digital will not grow. For an Indian based company with low operating costs, anything over 1% commission is robbery."

Oops! Just when I was going around celebrating that I have PayTM installed (but b4 I put any money in it). What is the cost of using PayTM pls? Too stupid to look it up myself.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 29 Dec 2016 05:48

How much do Visa and MasterCard charge? Is it a percentage basis or is there a flat fee after certain amount. If they charge 3% for 100 dollars, its kind of acceptable. If they charge the 3% for 1000 dollars, its a serious dent in profits for the merchant. If the merchant factors that into the cost, then it is a significant amount for the customer.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Dec 2016 06:09

achoudhury wrote:Sometimes I see the kind of sweeping language that some "Rakshaks" use is nothing short of disgusting. Most of It comes from holier than thou attitude which believes that everyone else is dishonest and unpatriotic and some of it also comes from deeply held prejudices. Case in point , "Thieving Merchant class". Have we ever asked why merchant classes are not prone to paying taxes and why that is our national character ? Even Salaried class pay taxes because they have to , not because they want to. It is our national character because the entity that we pay our tax to has had a character of rent seeker for a long long time ( Muslims, British )and continued till date ( Congress, etc.

Speaking of "national character" - we can also classify smaller groups of people as having a particular character
For example:

Vaishya- fundamentally greedy cheats
Scheduled Caste: fundamentally dirty, lying and unhygienic
Hindus: small hearted rapists
Indians: filthy - prefer open defecation, like to spit paan everywhere

Since these are commonly accepted and true features of Indians there is nothing disgusting or holier than thou in describing Indians in this way. these are all fundamental truths that we need to understand about ourselves and accept them as they are and not fight it.

In fact what I have written is as much bullshit as what you have written, no more no less.

Indian society has been closer to a libertarian society than anyone will care to admit in which the absence of an overlord has allowed society to split itself into multiple interest groups who are free to live their lives as they wish. While this made what we call "India" as the free-est society in the world, the presence of multiple fragmented groups in India has made it easy for people to come in and rule over Indians, group by group by group.

The only way to unify groups is to step away from the total freedom/no single leader libertarianism to a more top-down government that forces a common minimum agenda, where people must change or modify their so called "national character" for the common good of all the other motherflushing and disgusting Indians that we are forced to live with., We know we can do it because we do it perfectly well when we live in Amreeka or Saudi Arabia or Singapore. It is the fault of our education that tells us "unity in diversity" when the agenda is actually "diversity in unity".

If you or I don't like this top-down structure that forces us to change our "national habits" and forces us to be like what someone else says then we have two options
1. Vote the bugger out of power
2. Start a revolution

You or I will not be the first people to think of this or try and implement it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Dec 2016 06:17

hanumadu wrote:How much do Visa and MasterCard charge? Is it a percentage basis or is there a flat fee after certain amount. If they charge 3% for 100 dollars, its kind of acceptable. If they charge the 3% for 1000 dollars, its a serious dent in profits for the merchant. If the merchant factors that into the cost, then it is a significant amount for the customer.

I am no businessman and I don't understand how these calculations about "denting profits" is done

But there are a hajaar items that one can buy that are marked with an MRP - which is actually MAXIMUM retail price (not Minimum retail price) as say Rs 800. There will be merchants who sell it at Rs 800. If you go to the right places you get merchants who sell the same item for Rs 650. Others may drop it down to Rs 620 for you. A other times -you order the same item online and get it for 500. Some guys will charge Rs 820 and justify that

What exactly is this business of 2% or 3% being a huge huuuuge deal for merchants. Some merchants seem to act like 2% is a big deal and then say that their families have been successful as merchants for 500 years because of these attitudes. There are other merchants who are also successful who don't have any such issues.

Just like showing media image of bank queue in Patna and no bank queue in Bengaluru - there are variations. Indignantly claiming that only "One way and one path" is the true and correct path seems to be the problem to me.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Dec 2016 06:30

UlanBatori wrote:"If they leave to private enterprise like Paytm at this initial stage, digital will not grow. For an Indian based company with low operating costs, anything over 1% commission is robbery."

Oops! Just when I was going around celebrating that I have PayTM installed (but b4 I put any money in it). What is the cost of using PayTM pls? Too stupid to look it up myself.

Paytm charges some percentage if you transfer money paid to you (on Paytm) to your bank account.

I have not been paid by Paytm yet although I have offered it to patients. Whatever Paytm charges me becomes part of my "expenses" and in any case my earnings show in my bank. So if I charge Rs 100 and my bank account gets only Rs 96 - my declared income is Rs 96. If I don't like this I can simply start charging Rs 150 - and that way I get way waay more than Rs 96 even if Paytm "robs me" of 4% . Will I lose customers? Yeah maybe - but I know my services are valued and I know people will pay me 150. Someone else competing with me may charge Rs 140 - and give customers a better deal than me and still use Paytm

Demand, supply and value are all interlinked in all businesses

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 29 Dec 2016 07:39

I have gone to my native place and on DeMo discussed the matter with many including shopkeepers and BJP leaders.
1. Cash problems are quite acute in South. Even in Urban areas also. Please have many challenges because no shopkeeper etc. helped people in many cases.
2. Bank ATMs in most of the places are not working at all. Only 5-10% of them are only working.
3. People are helping each other with cash. I needed cash, and my relatives have given it to me, and I transferred money to their account.
4. There is no one seen critical of NM other than regular anti BJP fellows. Quite a few people feel that local bankers and others are cheating people.
5. Entire cash crunch seems to be manmade. Local people know about it in most of the cases.
6. Better cash management is urgently required.
7. Bank employees are suffering great extant due to pressures from local money bags and others to do “Something” and “help” then. Many PSU bank employees refused, and some took the money and “helped.”
8. People expect GOI to get rid of 2000 notes soon.
For the question of where all the cash sent to South went, the answer seems to in the IT raids on the CS of TN and other things that are happening in Chennai. As per the BJP leaders in AP, entire cash sent to South India in the initial stages was cornered in moneybags, and there are unreported incidences of Cash containers diverted in the help of RBI people, many bank employees, and post office people. Now as per the information, some 1000 IT officials are investigating this along with some companies of police deployed there. One minister ( Venkayya) said to have tried to help them but failed as no one heard his pleas. CBN and KCR are also part of this. 64 Branches in AP and TS are under serious investigation, Post Office officials in at least one big post office in the costal districts of AP also under investigation. CBNs recent statement drama on DeMo is part of that same drama, but he got hard slap by GOI. In private sector banks, three banks – IDBI Bank, Axis and one more (Yes Bank?) seem to have part of this. Method used in cash of Axis – Get the cash, Close the bank in the evening open the double lock and put the entire cash in the private lockers and then next day open the lockers just like any other day and take the cash out normally. People are saying a large number of discrepancies will be seen if there is any investigation done now in Axis Bank.
From what I have seen – greater information flow to the public is needed from GOI now. That is not coming now. While people think that this step is taken with good intentions the management aspect of the other details of how much cash and win which dimensions was sent to which place. AJ seriously mishandled this. As usual, he seems to think that engaging Delhi presstitutes are sufficient. He needs to address the nation and required to supervise this at the micro level. That was totally lacking.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 29 Dec 2016 08:08

My neighborhood ATM is stuffed with 500 and 2K notes, normal queues of 2 -3 guys any time. Even ATMs with in radius of 1 Km have similar situation and the surprise is I stay at southern suburb of Kolkata.

Since DeMo , this is my first post here and I found no issues what so ever with crash crunch neither at Vegetable -Fish Market nor with any kirana shops. Twice for Tx worth 300-400 , i got changes for 2K Notes that too at early phases of DeMo!!

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 29 Dec 2016 08:38

I was in Hyderabad for 4 weeks. Every ATM had long queues. Cash was hard to get and mostly in 2000

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 29 Dec 2016 08:43

Dhirubahi Ambani, in response to one of his sons egging him on to jump into mobile telephony asked his son to come back to him when said son could make a mobile phone call cheaper than a post card. I think post cards were Rs 1 at the time.

An old wizened trader told me even 1 Rupee out of every hundred matters for the mercantile class. To increase digital payments uptake by traders, he suggested a few paise in every rupee. Following, this wisdom, electronic commission rates need to be less than 1%. I think this is also proposed by Bokil's BTT.

If required, for the greater good of the nation, the government can be a loss leader in this area for as long as it takes.Far better than making sandal soap.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Dec 2016 08:57

rahulm wrote: An old wizened trader told me even 1 Rupee out of every hundred matters for the mercantile class.

I have no doubt that this is the case.

But looking back at history - particularly the 1830 to 1860 history of Delhi when in changed hands from "Mughal" to Brit - you find that there were a few businessmen/mercantile class/moneylenders who held out until the end because in sieges of cities even the king did not have money and had to ask moneylenders. But ultimately they got looted and some got killed. The "mercantile class" can detach itself from the nation only to some extent - beyond a point they will get hit. Of course they will protest - but it makes sense to level the playing field and let others make some money too rather than purse selfishness. Or else get hit and get zero sympathy or support.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Dec 2016 09:01

Per the person who installed PayTM in my Lenovo phone (same as person who guided e-purchase of said phone back in August and got it fool-proofed as in enabling me to use it), she has not paid a paisa so far in using PayTM - not in transfer from bank to PayTMM, not in refilling phone (for phone usage) using PayTM, not other transactions. In fact she says BSNL or whatever phone service she has, gave her bonus minutes for refilling via PayTM. So I feel that PayTM bijnej model may be mostly via ads which appear with the App - of bijnejjes conveniently smiling at user from phone display, incl. Rail Ticket, Amazon, maybe chocolate home delivery etc etc.
I am sold on this since I don't expect anyone to be paying me via PayTM. Since I don't have Aadhar anyway, there is not much free competition.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Dec 2016 09:09

From above posts, main takleef appears to be in States where the culture is 99% taken over by crooks. Andhra comes to mind, maybe parts of TN, parts of Karnataka. Kerala, being pure and honest, has no such problems visible, except the stash of Made in Pakistan notes is now appearing as pulverized road pavement. As I reported back on Dec 13, day after 3-day closure, with huuuge rush expected, Major Sarkari Bank Mgr in city center of center of Malloostan was kicking back his heels in his EZChair, breezily offering standard Rs 24K in any combo of 2K, 100, 50 and 20s. ATM stood forlorn outside with note saying ONLY 2000-rupee notes available.

Small shopkeeper in hotbed of CPI(M) votebank, was singing praises of NaMO for hitting corruption and wasteful spending by kids, though he had not yet been able to get a swipe machine from banka and bijnej was down a bit.

Things back to normal AFAIK.

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 29 Dec 2016 09:49

hanumadu wrote:How much do Visa and MasterCard charge? Is it a percentage basis or is there a flat fee after certain amount. If they charge 3% for 100 dollars, its kind of acceptable. If they charge the 3% for 1000 dollars, its a serious dent in profits for the merchant. If the merchant factors that into the cost, then it is a significant amount for the customer.

It is around 2-3%. Yes, as far as I know the larger transactions will have lower rate. This rate is an accepted norm since the inception of credit card. Last 5 years, there is lot of downward pressure on this rate but it is reaching a point where it cannot go any lower. However big stores like Walmart and Costco are still throwing their muscle. For example Costco recently moved away from Amex to Visa(citi) to bring the commission rate from .6% to 0.0% which is ridiculous. Citi is hoping to capture the share of wallet from other purchases but it is a very costly gamble.

2-3% fee for credit card is reasonable considering the card member doesn't pay for a month(interest expense) and the card issuer has to bear the risk of not being paid (write off expense). But for debit cards this is not true as the amount is deducted immediately at the time of transaction authorization and there is no risk. That is why anything more than 1% on debit cards is robbery and most of the cards in India are debit cards. Many countries around the world are setting regulations to put cap on the fee for debit cards and the rate is much lower than 1%.

Don't know how much paytm charges but in the long run they have to comedown, otherwise they will be out of business. Unlike payment networks like Visa, MC, Amex , the bar for new entrants is very low when it comes to payment gateways and processors like paytm. So it will be matter of time paytm falls in line.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 29 Dec 2016 09:51

UlanBatori wrote:"If they leave to private enterprise like Paytm at this initial stage, digital will not grow. For an Indian based company with low operating costs, anything over 1% commission is robbery."

Oops! Just when I was going around celebrating that I have PayTM installed (but b4 I put any money in it). What is the cost of using PayTM pls? Too stupid to look it up myself.

To respond to this and other queries:

PayTM does not charge you anything, except if you want to transfer money back to your bank.
90% of cards in India are debit cards (this excludes RuPay cards, else the proportion of debit cards would increase). From 1st Jan, the merchant fee would be 0.25% (for transactions upto Rs 1000) & 0.5% (higher value transactions). This is lower than the 0.6% in China that a previous post suggested India should emulate. UPI payments have a cost of about Rs 0.50 per transaction (may come down with higher volumes).

The 2-3% that posters have referred to (its usually lower than 2% for larger merchants) is for credit cards, not debit cards.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Dec 2016 09:52

shiv wrote: If you or I don't like this top-down structure that forces us to change our "national habits" and forces us to be like what someone else says then we have two options
1. Vote the bugger out of power
2. Start a revolution

You or I will not be the first people to think of this or try and implement it.

A middle path between libertarian or unitary (top-down)also exists. Federalism. Right now we have a dichotomy, where the top-down structure as it exists with a reluctant federal model, inserted into the mix is at variance with the libertarian ways of the people. Scaling up or Organization has been THE Indian problem since ages. Forcing change down the throat from the top has never worked. The answer has to be to empower the lowest structures and let power flow from these lowest bodies and enable these lower bodies to be self governing, yet federated.

BTW: Do not believe that corruption is the national habit of the people. I lay 90% of the blame on the system. After all in Amrika, Barbaria or Singhaland, the same Indian behaves. The vaishya pays his taxes....

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Dec 2016 09:53

Whats the RBI limit for note submission in march?

Sigh, just found another ten k to submit. The banks will be overflowing today and tomorrow. Am sure my folks have other milkman-maid stashes i need to ferret out..

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 29 Dec 2016 09:57

Arhar prices fall below MSP after bumper crop

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/tpyKMu ... -crop.html

After moong, prices of arhar, a major rain-fed kharif crop, have plunged below support prices in major growing states such as Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh where the crop has reached markets.

The dip in wholesale prices follows a record crop due to a normal south-west monsoon and farmers increasing its acreage, taking a cue from retail prices which shot up to Rs200 per kg earlier this year.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Dec 2016 10:06

Dasari wrote:
hanumadu wrote:How much do Visa and MasterCard charge?
It is around 2-3%.

Regarding the idea that cash economy will continue on the logic that a trader will extend credit up to Rs 2000 and then take a note because he does not want to pay tax, I want to point out two things
1. Yes - even our regular veg vendor is doing this
2. Even though these people do that - there is a fallacy in their argument about "saving money by avoiding tax". Credit card companies are doing exactly what these vendors do but they charge interest. These vendors think that they are retaining customers and are making money by taking cash and avoiding tax. But they are losing money by lending without interest.

it is all very well to say that "Even one Rupee in 100 counts". But in terms of money even one day counts. Earning interest is all about money lending. "extending free credit" is actually loss of money. What these traders do is to lose money to keep customers happy and then claim that they gain money by cheating the government.

Of course the customers who agree to the credit line may be getting hoodwinked because the trader who gives credit may be hiking his rates by unknown amounts while claiming to "give credit". In this case the customer is the idiot. Here the customer can hit back by refusing credit and insisting on paying to those who take e-payments. But when you have economic moorkhta all around there is no cure.

The only way to deal with this is something like GST where no one avoids tax and some traders can come to their senses about taxes.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 29 Dec 2016 10:09

The figure of 15.44 lakh crore as the value of 500 and 1000 rupee notes in circulation as on Nov 8th, is the figure given by the Minister of State for Finance in answer to a question in the Parliament. So that is the official figure.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 29 Dec 2016 10:11

Sicanta wrote:Arhar prices fall below MSP after bumper crop

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/tpyKMu ... -crop.html
After moong, prices of arhar, a major rain-fed kharif crop, have plunged below support prices in major growing states such as Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh where the crop has reached markets.

The dip in wholesale prices follows a record crop due to a normal south-west monsoon and farmers increasing its acreage, taking a cue from retail prices which shot up to Rs200 per kg earlier this year.

"Arhar Modi"