Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 30 Dec 2016 15:39

deleted duplicate post. See post below

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 30 Dec 2016 15:48

Lisa wrote: Dasarji,

In the UK, debit card charges are fixed, ie as there is no credit element involved a fixed charge is levied irrespective on the value of the transaction. We currently pay 11p. In India such a charge cannot exceed a single digit Rupee value. Under no circumstances must a percentage fee be permitted as it discourages use and furthermore enriches banks in that a debit card transaction for 10 Rs costs the same to process as a 1Cr Re transaction, correct?

Not sure what you are referring to when you say 11p. Debit cards are not charged that much. Debit/Credit cards are charged at a rate ranging from 0.5% - 2.5% depending on the merchant, volume of payments through the acquirer annually and who the scheme is.

For instance, large merchants are charged a flat fee of pennies on the transaction - irrespective of the value because they are responsible for £b in transactions annually. But a cornershop is charged around 1.5%. Also, I disagree with your assertion that the "transaction cost" remains the same. While this is technically true, the reason why charges are so low in the EU is due to blending i.e. cross subsidisation. If you were charging a the same for a £1000 transaction that you would for a £10 transaction, then the charges would need to rise on the lower transaction. Further, a £10k transaction represents a much higher risk to the acquirer than a £10 transaction. Having said that merchants can negotiate down their charges through increased volume. The same goes for the acquiring bank, whose charges are lowered if they push more payments through a particular scheme.

Similarly, other than travel and a few merchants, most do not differentiate between CC & DC as merchants would be subsidised through high value transactions.

Therefore, what needs to be done is that the government needs to subsidise card transactions through some of the extra taxes collected by such payments (i.e merchants cannot deflate their income when received through cards).

Going back to the OPs "the card issuer has to bear the risk of not being paid (write off expense)", it isn't as simple as that. (if it is a fraud case) then depending on who committed the fraud, that party will bear the loss. So if you stole someone's card and bought a bunch of items, then the issuing bank pays the customer back. But if the merchant fails to deliver the goods though, then the acquirer pays the bill. The issuing bank never pays a penny as the risk is held completely by the acquiring bank.

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 30 Dec 2016 15:54

Deans wrote: Debit card charges are low enough to encourage merchants to accept them (see my previous post). Credit card charges are higher because the customer pays a month later. Hence the merchant sometimes charges the customer the 2% interest he loses (he wont charge for a debit card transaction). He pays the card issuer 2% (or 1.5% more than debit card charges), since he is getting an `extra' sale from money the customer does not have at the moment, which is worth 2% to him.

Cash also has a cost for merchants. It can be stolen. There are torn notes and fakes. Cash collection charges are typically 0.5- 1% of cash deposited. When running a large retail chain some years ago, I've found that the cost of debt/credit cards was no different from cash and removing a card facility resulted in lost business (even for a average bill value of Rs 200) . Since then costs have moved in favor of cards/ digital payments.

No - the credit card transactions cost more because they have more protection (at least in the EU). The credit cost of that transaction only makes up a small portion of the "charge".

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 30 Dec 2016 16:07

There are 3 sets of figures of high value deposits, which have been reported.
- 1.14 lac people depositing a total of 393000 crore (as of 17th Dec) &
- 60 lac people depositing > 2 lac each, with a total of 700000 crore.
(this includes deposits in dormant accounts) &
- Misuse of JDY accounts and repayment of loans with old notes.

The first category would be BM holders, excluding current accounts of legitimate tax paying businesses.

If statement 1 is correct, the remaining 59 lac people deposited 307000 crore, or approx 5.2 lac each.
24 lac of these 59 lac are taxpayers declaring over 10 lacs income and might plausibly explain why they had cash - most of them will most
likely have smaller deposits, as the average of 5.2 lac will be skewed by people in the 50-80 lac bracket, or the 1.17 lac people who
repaid loans of over 25 lacs, in old notes.

My sense therefore is that the total BM identified is:

1. Cash not returned - 100,000 crore ? (we will get a better idea once double counting etc is clarified).
2. 50% of 393000 crore deposited by the top 1.14 lac people (I'm being generous and saying 50% of the top 1.14 lac is tax paying corporates).
This 393000 crore will increase with deposits between 18-31 Dec, but the increase should be negated, when reducing the approx
18000 taxpayers with incomes over 1 crore and presumably being able to explain this stash.
3. 60% of the remaining 307000 crore ( 59 lac depositors above 2 lacs - 24 lac taxpayers) = 181130 cr.
4. Misuse of JDY / seizures etc - 10,000 crore

This gives us : 100000 + 196500 + 181130 +10,000 crore = 487630 crore.

In comparison, total personal income tax collected in India (2015-16 budget) was 327000 crore !

There would probably be not more than 5 lac people who have deposited over 25 lac AND have not paid tax or underpaid it.
That is a relatively small number to enable immediate freezing of accounts and prosecution. Typically this category of offenders will have
benami property etc.

There would be another 30 lac people in the `smaller fish' category with deposits between 2 and 25 lac and who have not paid taxes.
Probably most of these would be among the 68 lac people who have received notices after high value purchases with no tax returns. This
can be handled by simple computer generated notices raising tax demands on the deposited amount (some of these would already have availed
the amnesty scheme).

While the final numbers may well be different, my sense from this is that the Govt's estimate (and those of SBI etc) on the extent of BM
held in cash were fairly accurate, and hence the basic premise of this exercise is validated.
The only difference is that BM holders preferred to take their chances with IT and deposit the money instead of destroying it.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 30 Dec 2016 16:14

JohnTitor wrote:
Deans wrote: Debit card charges are low enough to encourage merchants to accept them (see my previous post). Credit card charges are higher because the customer pays a month later. Hence the merchant sometimes charges the customer the 2% interest he loses (he wont charge for a debit card transaction). He pays the card issuer 2% (or 1.5% more than debit card charges), since he is getting an `extra' sale from money the customer does not have at the moment, which is worth 2% to him.

Cash also has a cost for merchants. It can be stolen. There are torn notes and fakes. Cash collection charges are typically 0.5- 1% of cash deposited. When running a large retail chain some years ago, I've found that the cost of debt/credit cards was no different from cash and removing a card facility resulted in lost business (even for a average bill value of Rs 200) . Since then costs have moved in favor of cards/ digital payments.
No - the credit card transactions cost more because they have more protection (at least in the EU). The credit cost of that transaction only makes up a small portion of the "charge".

Interest costs in India are much higher. It is quite routine for vendors to give you a 1.5 discount if a company pays a month before the
agreed credit period. Card defaults (incl. for technical reasons) are around 3% in India, which is possibly lower than Europe / US. You are right though in saying that a part of the charges levied are to insure against defaults.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 30 Dec 2016 16:47

Deans wrote:There are 3 sets of figures of high value deposits, which have been reported.
- 1.14 lac people depositing a total of 393000 crore (as of 17th Dec) &
- 60 lac people depositing > 2 lac each, with a total of 700000 crore.
(this includes deposits in dormant accounts)

The first category would be BM holders, excluding current accounts of legitimate tax paying businesses.

If statement 1 is correct, the remaining 59 lac people deposited 307000 crore, or approx 5.2 lac each.
24 lac of these 59 lac are taxpayers declaring over 10 lacs income and might plausibly explain why they had cash (most of them will most
likely have smaller deposits, as the average of 5.2 lac will be skewed by people in the 50-80 lac bracket, or the 1.17 lac people who
repaid loans of over 25 lacs, in old notes.

My sense therefore is that the total BM identified is:

1. Cash not returned - 100,000 crore ? (we will get a better idea once double counting etc is clarified).
2. 50% of 393000 crore deposited by the top 1.14 lac people (I'm being generous and saying 50% of the top 1.14 lac is tax paying corporates).
This 393000 crore will increase with deposits between 18-31 Dec, but the increase should be negated when reducing the approx
18000 taxpayers with incomes over 1 crore and presumably being able to explain this stash.
3. 60% of the remaining 307000 crore ( 59 lac depositors above 2 lacs - 24 lac taxpayers) or 181130 cr.
4. Misuse of JDY / seizures etc - 10,000 crore

This gives us : 100000 + 196500 + 181130 +10,000 crore = 487630 crore.

In comparison, total personal income tax collected in India (2015-16 budget) was 327000 crore !

There would probably be not more than 5 lac people who have deposited over 25 lac AND have not paid tax or underpaid it.
That is a relatively small number to enable immediate freezing of accounts and prosecution. Typically this category of offenders will have
benami property etc.

There would be another 30 lac people in the `smaller fish' category with deposits between 2 and 25 lac and who have not paid taxes.
Probably most of these would be among the 68 lac people who have received notices after high value purchases with no tax returns. This
can be handled by simple computer generated notices raising tax demands on the deposited amount (some of these would already have availed
the amnesty scheme).

While the final numbers may well be different, my sense from this is that the Govt's estimate (and those of SBI etc) on the extent of BM
held in cash were fairly accurate and hence the basic premise of this exercise is validated.
The only difference is that BM holders preferred to take their chances with IT and deposit the money instead of destroying it.

Even if this true, my concern is about perception among middle class. Will Modi win 2019 based on how much taxes he collected?

If they really get 4-5 lakh crores, how do they help in cutting taxes? Everything is taxed so bad from IT/ST/Capital Gains/Stamp duty/Service fees/Cess/Petrol taxes blah blah... all reflecting in restaurant bills/pertrol rates...

Hope they really streamline and eliminate a lot of useless taxes/reduce them. If middle class doesn't get behind Modi in 2019, they are gone. I have a fear that people only think in monetary terms.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 30 Dec 2016 16:54

A lot of these taxes get subsumed by GST. Hopefully we'll see it implemented by Sept.
On personal taxes, I think there needs to be both removal of needless cess on tax and removal of exemptions that are misused.

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 30 Dec 2016 17:31

Need some help from folks here, particularly Murthy Ji.

Going to Hyderabad next week. I do have an SBI account, but no ATM card for it, just a check book, it is my late father's legacy account for which I have joint custody. In the past for trips to India I've either used CC or simply withdrawn cash from ATMs using my Bank of America card. I propose to do the same this time but am a little concerned about problems if the cash shortage persists into next week.

From various posts here it appears that Paytm is the best option. I have tried to understand how it works but am not entirely sure I have it right. Basically you 'load' your account with cash, from your bank account and then simply transfer it to the vendor's account for a transaction. My question is, would Paytm allow this 'loading' from a credit card account or an American bank account (converting USD into Rs?).

Another question. I have an Uber account, would that work in India without an Indian source of payment?

Thanks.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 30 Dec 2016 17:57

PM Modi launches BHIM app for digital payments

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 255803.cms

BHIM (Bharat Interface for Money) - a rebranded version of UPI (Unified Payment Interface) and USSD (Unstructured Supplementary Service Data) - Merchants need to download the app on smartphones connected to a biometric reader, available for Rs 2000. The customer will then feed his aadhar no into the app, select the bank through which transaction will take place, and the biometric scan will work as password for transaction to be authenticated.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Dec 2016 19:14

IBNLIVE

India Inks Treaty With Singapore, Black Money Won't be Re-routed to India
Tushar Dhara | News18.com
First published: December 30, 2016, 6:52 PM IST | Updated: 6 mins ago facebook

New Delhi: On the 50th day of demonetisation, Finance Minister Arun Jaitley said India had amended an agreement with Singapore to close a tax loophole that allowed black money to be taken out of India and brought back into the country via Singapore as legitimate money.
The so-called Double Taxation Avoidance Agreement (DTAA) with Singapore has been amended to prevent investments from Singapore from dodging taxes in India.
The Finance Minister said that the amendment will come into force from April 1, 2017.
Jaitley said the agreement with Singapore was the third such agreement signed this year with countries to close avenues for black money to be spirited out of the country and brought back via international channels, a process that is called “roundtripping”. The other DTAA’s amended this year were with Mauritius and Cyprus.
This is how roundtripping works: undeclared money in India is spirited out through trade mis-invoicing or hawala channels into tax havens abroad. From here the money is routed through the international shadow banking system so that tax authorities in India cannot trace the money trail. The money finally makes its way back into India via Mauritius or Singapore, disguised as FDI (and hence legitimate money) and invested in financial markets in India.
It is the last stage where the DTAA comes in handy. The tax treaty stipulates that investments emanating from these countries will only be taxed once, either in India or in the originating country, to avoid double taxation. This is the loophole that individuals and companies use to avoid paying tax in India.
Since Singapore and Mauritius do not have capital gains tax, all a company has to do to avoid paying tax in India is to produce a certificate proving it is domiciled in either of these tax jurisdictions, thus automatically triggering the DTAA provision that stipulates that if you have paid your taxes there you don’t need to pay in India. However, since those taxes are nil in the originating countries, in effect, the investments are tax free routes for converting black money into white.
Critics of DTAA allege that what is being shown as legitimate investment is actually black money being roundtripped into India. Government figures suggest that the argument has merit.
Statistics from the Department of Industrial Policy and Promotion show that Mauritius and Singapore and the top two nations for inward bound FDI equity inflows into India. The two nations accounted for 50% of inflows between 2000 and 2016. Cyprus contributed another 3%.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Dec 2016 20:01

Interesting topic:

The countries where cash is on the verge of extinction

“Cash is a dinosaur, but it will stay,” says Michiel van Doeveren, a senior policy advisor at the Dutch central bank, DNB (De Nederlandsche Bank). But he points out it's the logistics that make handling cash expensive (it must be transported, guarded, tallied and registered) versus the ease of electronic payments. “It’s important that the electronic economy increases. We want to foster more efficient payments.”

Ankar · Post by **Ankar** » 30 Dec 2016 21:29

PayTM and other e-wallets are fine for buying things < Rs.100, for everything else Debit Card is much more convenient.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Dec 2016 22:37

^^^ Exactly. It's the small-purchase market that can be revolutionized by ungli-zation. Maybe not <100, these days <2000 because no one bothers to give change for those pink horrors. If kids use PayTM to buy candy at the small shop at the bus stop, and people use it to get auto-ricksha rides and to pay restaurant bills and buy bus tickets, the main uses of small cash are gone. ATM cards for the 2000 - 50,000 range, cheques and credit cards and certified cheques beyond that. I doubt whether you can buy a Tata Sumo using PayTM or an ATM card.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 30 Dec 2016 22:53

Does money mandatorily need to be loaded into a paytm wallet in order to pay, or can it just make the payment using a credit/debit card that is added to the paytm app (sort of like what paypal does) without the need of a balance in the wallet?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Dec 2016 00:00

Bart S money needs to be added AFAIK. You cant pay without them confirming it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Dec 2016 00:03

Primus sir, do you have relations n Hyd? Have them give you cash and rlthen you write them a check. Problem solved. Or you go to the bank for which that account exists and use a withdrawal slip.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 31 Dec 2016 00:11

Property Index card: How taxmen will chase benami deals

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 082_1.html

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 31 Dec 2016 00:24

Karan M wrote:Bart S money needs to be added AFAIK. You cant pay without them confirming it.

Thanks.

BTW, here are the details of the new BHIM app launched by Modiji:
http://techapple.net/2016/12/bhim-upi-p ... ad-review/

Going to install and try it out.

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 31 Dec 2016 00:26

Going by the rate of digital payments, in retrospect, I feel the currency starvation in the last 2 months was exactly what India needed to jumpstart this. Had this not been done, the current level of electronic payments would not have reached the same level even by the end of 2024, especially in rural areas. If the govt pushes this further, even if it is not popular, I think this will be heralded as revolutionary years for the evolution of the Indian economy and corruption free governance in years to come.

There would be tendency to fall back to cash once the situation eases. The govt needs to be extra vigilant and do few things in this order

1. Any cash transaction higher than Rs 10000 is illegal and carries penalty.
2. It is illegal to hoard more than Rs 10 lakh cash at any time.
3. Promote low cost alternatives like BHIM and make the payment wallets, gateways, networks to be very competitive. Mandate debit card fees to be less than 0.5%.
4. Once cashless reaches beyond 50% level of all financial transactions > Rs 500, ban and recall all Rs 500 and Rs 2000 notes for good.(This may be after 2019)

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 31 Dec 2016 00:28

Karan M wrote:Primus sir, do you have relations n Hyd? Have them give you cash and rlthen you write them a check. Problem solved. Or you go to the bank for which that account exists and use a withdrawal slip.

Karan Ji, thanks. I don't have any relatives in Hyd and don't have an ATM card for the bank. In the US, even when you walk into a bank with a check to withdraw money, you have to show your ATM card and swipe it at the cashier window before you hand over the withdrawal slip. I do have a check book so I can take that and write a check, have my passport to serve as ID.

I am also planning to take some left over old money (10K or so) which I will have to go to an RBI branch and change. Don't know if I will have the opportunity to do this.

Of course if the ATMs work with my BankAmerica card that would solve all the problem.

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 31 Dec 2016 00:39

Primus wrote:
Karan M wrote:Primus sir, do you have relations n Hyd? Have them give you cash and rlthen you write them a check. Problem solved. Or you go to the bank for which that account exists and use a withdrawal slip.

Karan Ji, thanks. I don't have any relatives in Hyd and don't have an ATM card for the bank. In the US, even when you walk into a bank with a check to withdraw money, you have to show your ATM card and swipe it at the cashier window before you hand over the withdrawal slip. I do have a check book so I can take that and write a check, have my passport to serve as ID.

I am also planning to take some left over old money (10K or so) which I will have to go to an RBI branch and change. Don't know if I will have the opportunity to do this.

Of course if the ATMs work with my BankAmerica card that would solve all the problem.

Your BOA debit card will work like any local ATM card as long as you can put up with transaction fee and foreign exchange fee. You also need to hunt for ATM that has money. I believe the situation has improved though not as much as some other parts of AP. Look for SBI or Andhra bank ATMs inside the bank. You will most likely find cash there.

Your BOA check will not work unless you have an account there.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 31 Dec 2016 00:51

Bart S wrote:
Karan M wrote:Bart S money needs to be added AFAIK. You cant pay without them confirming it.
Thanks.

BTW, here are the details of the new BHIM app launched by Modiji:
http://techapple.net/2016/12/bhim-upi-p ... ad-review/

Going to install and try it out.

Just installed it and it looks really good. Nice solid app with no unnecessary bloatware or ads.

One glitch is that it lists a lot of banks some of which are not UPI enabled so if you select such a bank it says transaction declined. It would be better if they only included UPI enabled banks that work with it. It also looks like you can only add one bank account at a time, it would be able to add multiple banks and accounts and use the one that you want at the time of sending or receiving payment.

Also, there are already a lot of duplicate/scam apps by the same name and the genuine app is buried beneath 10 such scam apps. Something needs to be done to make sure that people only install the legit app.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 31 Dec 2016 03:00

Slowly but surely, you are all being herded into a system that banksters & govt control and which you do not.

The wealth you earn & save can then be taken from you whenever they wish under such a system.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Dec 2016 03:05

Primus wrote:
Karan M wrote:Primus sir, do you have relations n Hyd? Have them give you cash and rlthen you write them a check. Problem solved. Or you go to the bank for which that account exists and use a withdrawal slip.

Karan Ji, thanks. I don't have any relatives in Hyd and don't have an ATM card for the bank. In the US, even when you walk into a bank with a check to withdraw money, you have to show your ATM card and swipe it at the cashier window before you hand over the withdrawal slip. I do have a check book so I can take that and write a check, have my passport to serve as ID.

I am also planning to take some left over old money (10K or so) which I will have to go to an RBI branch and change. Don't know if I will have the opportunity to do this.

Of course if the ATMs work with my BankAmerica card that would solve all the problem.

the check idea addressed to yourself will work fine.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 31 Dec 2016 03:58

Bart S wrote:
Bart S wrote:
Thanks.

BTW, here are the details of the new BHIM app launched by Modiji:
http://techapple.net/2016/12/bhim-upi-p ... ad-review/

Going to install and try it out.
Just installed it and it looks really good. Nice solid app with no unnecessary bloatware or ads.

One glitch is that it lists a lot of banks some of which are not UPI enabled so if you select such a bank it says transaction declined. It would be better if they only included UPI enabled banks that work with it. It also looks like you can only add one bank account at a time, it would be able to add multiple banks and accounts and use the one that you want at the time of sending or receiving payment.

Also, there are already a lot of duplicate/scam apps by the same name and the genuine app is buried beneath 10 such scam apps. Something needs to be done to make sure that people only install the legit app.

It would be really easy to get somebody's phone number and hijack their account. Even verification of the owner of the account with expiry date of debit card is not secure. Easy for some one to get that information. There must be greater fraud protection by stricter authentication of true owner of the account. Or is it the idea that the aadhar finger print is used will provide enough security for each transaction?

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 31 Dec 2016 04:06

4 digit code is the security to access the app and fingerprint to approve the transaction.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 31 Dec 2016 04:34

Neshant wrote:Slowly but surely, you are all being herded into a system that banksters & govt control and which you do not.

The wealth you earn & save can then be taken from you whenever they wish under such a system.

true...but is there a different way?

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 31 Dec 2016 05:13

prahaar wrote:4 digit code is the security to access the app and fingerprint to approve the transaction.

How easy is it to fake some body's finger prints? If you can get somebody's phone, debit card expiry and finger print, you can access his account. Not an easy task by any means. But the phone owner has to be careful with his phone, no misplacing it or lending it to untrustworthy people and report to his bank as soon as he loses it. Ideally, a consortium of Indian banks should take this whole digital payments forward. They will be more responsive to people's concerns and inputs. If UPA comes back to power, all these systems will be let to rot.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 31 Dec 2016 05:25

Dasari wrote:Going by the rate of digital payments, in retrospect, I feel the currency starvation in the last 2 months was exactly what India needed to jumpstart this. Had this not been done, the current level of electronic payments would not have reached the same level even by the end of 2024, especially in rural areas. If the govt pushes this further, even if it is not popular, I think this will be heralded as revolutionary years for the evolution of the Indian economy and corruption free governance in years to come.

There would be tendency to fall back to cash once the situation eases. The govt needs to be extra vigilant and do few things in this order

1. Any cash transaction higher than Rs 10000 is illegal and carries penalty.
2. It is illegal to hoard more than Rs 10 lakh cash at any time.
3. Promote low cost alternatives like BHIM and make the payment wallets, gateways, networks to be very competitive. Mandate debit card fees to be less than 0.5%.
4. Once cashless reaches beyond 50% level of all financial transactions > Rs 500, ban and recall all Rs 500 and Rs 2000 notes for good.(This may be after 2019)

1
I would say all transactions over Rs 1000 needs to be electronic. It is fully possible. Think of it, doctors, shops, car dealers, kirana shops, petrol stations, electrical goods can all be payed by e-money. Very few areas are today without 2G. And if such a law came to effect, it would create the demand for better internet infrastructure.

2 One needs to have permit to store more then Rs 100K

3 Agree with baning of Rs 2000 note. But do keep a huge stockpile of notes in case of emergency (war, electronic brakdown etc)

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 31 Dec 2016 05:28

hanumadu wrote:
prahaar wrote:4 digit code is the security to access the app and fingerprint to approve the transaction.
How easy is it to fake some body's finger prints? If you can get somebody's phone, debit card expiry and finger print, you can access his account. Not an easy task by any means. But the phone owner has to be careful with his phone, no misplacing it or lending it to untrustworthy people and report to his bank as soon as he loses it. Ideally, a consortium of Indian banks should take this whole digital payments forward. They will be more responsive to people's concerns and inputs. If UPA comes back to power, all these systems will be let to rot.

No system are foolproof. But it is hard to get away with large sums. It is very important that people are reimbursed for fradulent transactions. This is fully possible as it is a very neglegible cost. The risk of fraud is lower then loosing your cash.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 31 Dec 2016 05:30

Neshant wrote:Slowly but surely, you are all being herded into a system that banksters & govt control and which you do not.

The wealth you earn & save can then be taken from you whenever they wish under such a system.

Yes sometimes I think whether termiteQ-nac-kejri-chidambaram-mamta lot form mahaathugbandhan govt, they will easily loot us to fill the pockets of minorities.

I don't know why you keep cursing bankers though. Why PNB, SBI etc. Public banks would harm us, if we don't go with private banks at all?

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 31 Dec 2016 06:14

Neshant wrote:Slowly but surely, you are all being herded into a system that banksters & govt control and which you do not.

The wealth you earn & save can then be taken from you whenever they wish under such a system.

How is this any different from any advanced countries? And what liberties they lost with respect to citizens of India? Even if you convert it all to gold, what is the safe place to store so that you don't lose sleep everyday - Bank Lockers.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 Dec 2016 06:15

I have a tough time visualizing electronic transactions when u want to tip the concierge at a hotel, or whoever insists on dragging ur bags to the room, or the person who cleans the room. Etc etc.

At Vishu, will ppl now exchange BHIM codes? Will the places of worship simply have swipe machines and displays on them + a QR code reader? wonder how toll booths on the highway work, where transaction time is crucial (if you double the average transaction time, Queueing Theory probably says that the lines become miles long).

Perhaps at places of worship, b4 you go there you select from a menu on the 'Net or on PayTM of all offerings, and then just get a QR code that you swipe at the entrance to get the Preferred Express Line to Blessings. Oh I forgot! They ban mobile phones!! Now what??

Neshant: looks like demand for gold is going to go through the roof. Except, don't buy those Official Coins, they probably have the gleaming nanochip in them with the radioactive isotope glowing from one's pockets and zapping one's mijjile. This 2000-rupee note may be a scam to reduce population.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 Dec 2016 06:17

No announcement of cash withdrawal rules post Dec 30? The expectation was "a speech at 11:55PM" per some young ppl here.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 31 Dec 2016 07:04

cash withdrawl limit raised to Rs 4500... from atms...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2016 07:08

Neshant wrote:Slowly but surely, you are all being herded into a system that banksters & govt control and which you do not.

The wealth you earn & save can then be taken from you whenever they wish under such a system.

I can't make out the difference. The system I have always lived under was always like that. But I know it was different for some and I find them complaining. I can't for the life of me understand why

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2016 07:15

UlanBatori wrote:I have a tough time visualizing electronic transactions when u want to tip the concierge at a hotel, or whoever insists on dragging ur bags to the room, or the person who cleans the room. Etc etc.

Yak herders and other itinerants are specifically targeted for the scraps they throw. There is a culture of expecting tips that feeds off a culture of giving tips that is essentially imported. I recently restarted a new sport that I had kept off for 30 years - swimming. At the club where I swim one of the changing room cleaners saw a new face and started fetching me a towel and waiting to wring my unwringable synthetic swimming trunks after a swim. I rewarded him with a thank you and he has stayed out of my way since. Slightly more difficult were the waiters at the club where rules say tipping not allowed, but who I used to tip. There is a separate gratuity box that is actually distributed equitably unlike waiter grabs that do not reach cleaners etc. Demonetization has been a blessing - I have said "Sorry - I have no change"

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 31 Dec 2016 07:58

Dasari wrote:
Neshant wrote:Slowly but surely, you are all being herded into a system that banksters & govt control and which you do not.
The wealth you earn & save can then be taken from you whenever they wish under such a system.
How is this any different from any advanced countries? And what liberties they lost with respect to citizens of India?

"Advanced countries" are already in an advanced stage of removing control of savings & wages from their citizens and transferring it to banksters.
Hence their reason to remove cash and force people to deposit all their funds with private banks.
Losses of these banks can then be downloaded onto the people and wealth transferred away from them.
Its called a lock down - and it goes even further than controlling peoples wealth to spying on them.

Once an entity has control over all your earnings & savings and can take it away from you - you are no longer a free man.
You are a slave.

As for gold, moves are already underway to make sure all your purchases are registered and traceable to you.
The objective is to prevent any means of having you in control over the wealth you have earned.
The objective a little later down the road is also to tax you - i.e. take more wealth from you and keep you in a state of not ever being able to accumulate enough wealth to step off the treadmill.

That people here cannot see the above is what i find amazing. People here are literally cheering on their own enslavement - which is the end goal.

It rejects every notion of capitalism and liberty and puts in place a system where those who had no part in earning the wealth get to control the wealth.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 31 Dec 2016 08:21

What is the alternative you suggest? There's never been a foolproof system of governance or money at any point in history. The king or government, if it turns malevolent, can always do the things you're cautioning against. The solution is not in finding a foolproof governance or monetary system, the solution is in ensuring that the rulers don't turn malevolent. IOW, teach kids their morals and their dharma, and ensure that the person who is at the helm is of dharmic bent, who has been carefully groomed from childhood to NOT turn Paki. If you don't agree with this, please suggest your utopian alternative financial or monetary system, and folks here will be happy to tear holes in that system and show you how it is no better - but in the Nukkad thread, not here.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 31 Dec 2016 08:27

Neshant wrote:
"Advanced countries" are already in an advanced stage of removing control of savings & wages from their citizens and transferring it to banksters.
.............

Give some examples how this will translate banksters in stealing money from people of " Advance countries " ?? 2 or 3 will do. From what i little understand is when we keep money in our saving account of a particular bank , it some way or the other is in control of that bank.