Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

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krisna
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by krisna »

Dasari wrote:
Neela wrote:Tweet from today from MoF


This is for FY 2014 - 2015
Can someone explain how MoF could have arrived at this finding?
Have they scanned bank transactions vs tax filed (or not) against the same PAN number?
The reports says that it cross checked with various other sources - specifically banks and other financial institutions. So I suspect they created a machine learning/artificial intelligence model and pumping all the data from various sources into it. If there is willingness, this technology and expertise is available for few years for many companies and institutions. Very hard to guess what the model is doing and what the feed back mechanism for model is wihout knowing some samples. The simplest model can work on credit card statements, bank statements and real estate transactions and tie them together by PAN id. This is why electronic cashless transactions are so critical if govt has to fight this BM in the long run. Hope they make any cash transactions above Rs 10000 or certain amount as illegal.

Here is the full article from TOI.
NEW DELHI: The income tax department has identified an additional 67.54 lakh non-filers who carried out high-value transactions in the 2014-15 financial year, but did not file tax returns for 2015-16.
The I-T department is set to initiate action against these people soon.
The information was collected from banks and other financial institutions.
Data analysis carried out by the Central Board of Direct Taxes (CBDT) identifies non-filers about whom specific information is available in transaction reports received in its databases from various sources.
The analysis is carried out as part of the I-T department's Non-filers Monitoring System (NMS) which is meant to identify non-filers with potential tax liabilities.
A CBDT press release said that the I-T department had identified the 67.54 lakh people by conducting its fifth cycle of data matching.
The department is in the process of sending notices to these non-filers to now account for their transactions and pay taxes as applicable.
The non-filers can access details of their transactions when they log on to the e-filing portal with their PAN, the CBDT said.
The PAN holder will be able to respond electronically and retain a copy of the submitted response.
The CBDT urged all tax payers to disclose their true income and pay taxes accordingly to escape scrutiny. It said the I-T department would continue to pursue non-filers vigorously.

In more than 760 search and seizure operations after demonetisation of Rs 500 and Rs 1,000 notes on November 8, the I-T department has unearthed at least Rs 3,590 crore in unaccounted income. The department has issued 3,589 notices since November 8 to various entities for alleged tax evasion and hawala dealings.
More than Rs 500 crore has been seized in cash and jewellery during this period, including Rs 93 crore in new currency notes. The I-T department has also referred at least 215 cases to the Enforcement Directorate and 185 to the CBI to further investigation in the matters.
I got an email about me being one of the non filers in NMS. :((

Opened the account, tok the help of incometax email id. response within 36 hours.

logged in ,
simple questions asked-

did you file ITR for last 4 years etc etc-- replied not filed-- remarks- staying in massa land since xxxx year.have invetsed in MF in India

did you transact >rs 20000 in year xxxx, said yes , in MF in India.

submitted the replies last week.

No problems so far.

Have been sending money regularly thru bank in massa to India.
have MF investments. now changed a few into fatca compliant which I was not aware of.
have to include them in massa tax this year.

Have my pancard and KYC compliant in everything done so far. nothing outside banking transactions online is massa and India.

am happy that I stuck to bank only. :P

------------------------------------------------

heard thru 3rd sources a few whom I know lost about 7-8 L in cash. some others upto 1 crore in total because of demonet exercise.
funny part is still they are happy and are NaMo fans. They were initially of congress switched to NaMo in 2014.

when asked , informed me that now it is little troubling for them but future of their kids will be safe if done nationwide consistently.All BM hoarders are punished.
Dasari
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Dasari »

vijayk wrote:

Now understand the takleef of idiot Steve Forbes....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall ... 7afdf11895
There's A Major Problem With The Aadhaar Payment App Being Rolled Out Today
I have to admit to certain worries about the technology itself:

The app can be downloaded on Android phones, and used with the help of a biometric reader, which costs the merchant Rs 2,000.

A customer feeds his or her Aadhaar number into the app and selects a bank. The biometric information then serves as the password.

There is no automatic or electronic biometric system at all which is 100% accurate. And you only need a failure rate of fractions of a percent to make a financial system too leaky for proper security. But that's a technological problem, not an economic one.

...the new app will be launched on 25 December keeping in mind a faster adoption of a cashless society and to eradicate fee payments charged by card companies, making it an affordable digital payment solution for merchants in rural areas.
Lot of issues with above article from Forbes. With multi factor authentication(having Adhar card#), it is mathematically impossible to breach the combination. I'm only little hesitant to use my finger print on somebody else(in this case merchant) phone. Our brilliant fraudsters with idle devil mind can invent some fraud by harvesting these finger prints. May be I exaggerating but I will make sure it is an authentic app, before I use my finger print.
arshyam
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by arshyam »

Hmm... interesting. I wonder how much of these deposits are over the past month...
Bumper Gold Holdings: The gold holdings of the three largest gold loan companies in Kerala – Muthoot Finance, Manappuram Finance and Muthoot Fincorp – have grown to nearly 263 tonnes. They now have more precious metal than the gold reserves of some of the richest nations – Belgium, Singapore, Sweden or Australia.
From: Swarajya morning brief, quoting a ToI article.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Dipanker »

arshyam wrote:Hmm... interesting. I wonder how much of these deposits are over the past month...
Bumper Gold Holdings: The gold holdings of the three largest gold loan companies in Kerala – Muthoot Finance, Manappuram Finance and Muthoot Fincorp – have grown to nearly 263 tonnes. They now have more precious metal than the gold reserves of some of the richest nations – Belgium, Singapore, Sweden or Australia.
None. TOI says the quantity of 263 tonnes was reached by Sept. 2016.

Gold holding of 3 Kerala companies more than Australia's
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

Dasari wrote: Now understand the takleef of idiot Steve Forbes....
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall ... 7afdf11895
There's A Major Problem With The Aadhaar Payment App Being Rolled Out Today

Lot of issues with above article from Forbes. With multi factor authentication(having Adhar card#), it is mathematically impossible to breach the combination. I'm only little hesitant to use my finger print on somebody else(in this case merchant) phone. Our brilliant fraudsters with idle devil mind can invent some fraud by harvesting these finger prints. May be I exaggerating but I will make sure it is an authentic app, before I use my finger print.
All praise be to ATM. Another opportunity to put in some kind words re: Steve Forbes.
Thank you for submitting your comment:
New Comments typically appear within 30 seconds.

This article is a nice back-pedalling effort and huge improvement after the hilarious BooBoo from steve Forbes. But here are some small points missed by the author:
1) Since 2014, over 700 million, maybe close to a billion, new bank accounts were set up in India. This is the Seismic Shift that Forbes and this article both missed. The DeMo move did not come in a, intracranial Forbesian vacuum. Those accounts were already tied into Aadhar, and many have been in regular use since - and most are through electronic transactions. The Govt's payments under the Right To Work scheme (basically a twist on Social Security + unemployment benefits) have been reaching the needy, much better through this, so users are not unaware of this, neither are the banks. 2) On Android phones, one can download the PayTM app, which has been in heavy and reliable use. This does not open a direct path to the bank account: it used exactly like the mobile phone "REFILL" system, in use for decades, where the user puts in enough money from their bank account to top off the "wallet". Then payments from that wallet are made via a QR code reader - or by punching in the numbers to pay someone else's PayTM or other system.

The new App(s) are govt efforts to provide alternatives to private company apps already available. Its like the Govt offering tax prep software so you don't have to buy TaxCut in the US.

Again, Forbes authors, please do some basic research before "contributing".
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Rishi Verma »

Dipanker wrote:
Dasari wrote:Regarding the BSP loot of Rs 108 cr, we can't claim success until the end. I could be wrong, but there is no limit on how much parties can raise money, and as of now there is no limit on how much cash one can hoard (that is white money).The only restriction is that they need to document any donations greater than Rs 20000. So if she claims that all this money is small cash donations and has no records, can they prosecute and confiscate the money?
Your apprehensions seems correct. If they confiscate the cash they will have to do it to all political parties as all of them will have similar cash.

Not saying that Mayawati is not corrupt or for that matters the rest of our politicians, but this raid may have more to do with impending UP poll.
The 108 CR was deposited post-DeMo in official BSP account. It's a legitimate question where the money came from, when. And would require a paper trail. The account will / should be frozen until the money is accounted for, till then BSP won't have chillar to even garland the ambedkar statues.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Dasari »

One of the best written article on Demonetization. I suggest you take time and read all of it. Some of it was discussed on this forum and it resonates well in this piece by Jagdish Bhagwati, Vivek Dehejia, and Pravin Krishna.

http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/niFH9uM ... -math.html
More than a month has passed since the 8 November announcement by Prime Minister Narendra Modi that high-denomination currency notes would be scrapped and remonetisation would occur through replacement of new notes and deposits of old notes in bank accounts. Often termed “demonetisation”, this policy has created considerable confusion among commentators, some ill-informed, some politically motivated. A number of fallacies continue to persist—concerning the value of “unreturned” versus “returned” money, the existing “stocks” versus future “flows” of black and counterfeit money, the short- versus the long-term impact on black money, and the expansionary versus contractionary effects of the policy reform—allowing opponents of the policy to claim, prematurely, and without evidence, that it is a failure. We clarify in what follows.

First, it is frequently asserted that the return into the formal monetary and banking system of a large percentage, perhaps 80% or more, of the old notes represents a failure of the policy. This is a fallacy which results from the misunderstanding that unaccounted money that is deposited into bank accounts has been converted successfully without penalty from black into white—which, actually, is not the case. The current rules dictate that deposits of unaccounted money will be taxed at 50%—with a further 25% taken by the government (into the Pradhan Mantri Garib Kalyan Yojana) as an interest-free loan for a period of four years.

Thus, the return of money to the formal banking system, when taxed, will generate a fiscal gain to the system. Interestingly, money that is not returned to banks is implicitly taxed at 100% from the perspective of the “owner” of that money, and this too could result in a fiscal gain under certain circumstances, which we clarify below.

The first requirement for any possible fiscal gain from that portion of the old stock of demonetized notes that are not returned is that such notes be de jure denotified, rather than merely de facto demonetised. This would allow the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) to cancel the liabilities associated with the issued currency.

Second, assuming that de jure denotification were to occur, any putative fiscal bonanza for the government would require one specific mechanism through which the resulting mismatch between the assets and liabilities of the central bank are rectified, which would be that the RBI, in effect, creates new money of equivalent value and turns that over to the government to do with as it pleases.

This, however, is not the only mechanism to correct the asset-liability mismatch. Another possibility would be for the RBI to offset the drop in liabilities by, for example, writing off an equivalent value of non-performing assets, thereby squaring its balance sheet. Yet another would be to effect a “helicopter drop” indirectly into the hands of the public, thereby creating new liabilities equivalent in value to the extinguished liabilities. While neither represents a direct fiscal gain for the treasury, it yields an outcome which is similar to what would have happened if the treasury had used its own resources for the same purposes.

What does all this add up to? Since there are gains to be had on black money, when it is returned to banks and also when it is not, the quantum of “unreturned” money is not a good indicator of the success or failure of policy. How then can we assess policy success?

Clearly, at least from the perspective of its effectiveness in dealing with the black money issue, success has to be measured by the sum of tax revenue generated and black money destroyed. Suppose we accept the estimate that one-third of the approximately Rs15 trillion in demonetised notes is black money. Roughly speaking, the revenue that would have been generated had that income been taxed in the first place is 30% of that (so, Rs5 trillion times 0.3 = Rs1.5 trillion). Perfect detection of black money should now yield 50% as tax revenue (so Rs5 trillion times 0.5 = Rs2.5 trillion), if all black money is returned and identified as such.

Of course, perfection is rarely achieved in practice. Allowing for slippages, we should neither expect all the black money to be returned, nor that all the black money that is returned will be perfectly identified and taxed. If we assume that by 30 December, Rs1 trillion is unreturned, as is believed, and we further assume that only half of the remaining Rs4 trillion of black money that is returned falls within the tax net, the net gain works out to Rs1 trillion of black money destroyed and 50% times 2 trillion = Rs1 trillion in tax revenue. When compared with the approximately Rs2.5 trillion in income taxes collected annually, the government could reasonably claim this as a successful outcome.

A second major fallacy concerns another stated goal of the demonetisation drive: counterfeit currency. Will demonetisation penalize those who have introduced counterfeit currency into the system? To address this question, one needs to clarify the distinction between stocks and flows. Thus, the stock of counterfeit money already in circulation, which has changed hands many times and, for better or worse, was already in use in the Indian economy on 8 November, will not be affected by the demonetisation exercise. At best, to the extent that the security features introduced into new notes limit immediate counterfeiting, the policy may minimize the future flows of counterfeit notes for some time. Thus, demonetisation addresses future flows, but not the current stock, of counterfeit money.

A third fallacy relates to the expectation of some that demonetisation will put an end to black money generation. This is because compared to the impact of demonetisation on counterfeit money, exactly the opposite is true for black money: demonetisation, by invalidating existing high denomination notes, deals with the stock of black money—but, in and of itself, does nothing to address future flows of black money (which may accrue in the new currency notes).

Relatedly, note that the demonetisation strategy proposed by Harvard economist Kenneth Rogoff—the slow replacement of high denomination notes by lower denomination ones—is essentially aimed at eliminating flow accumulation of black money in the future (by making the hoarding of high values of cash physically difficult), but does little to address the existing stock of black money, which remains legal tender under his proposal.

Fourth, it is argued by critics that the current exercise will not tackle the underlying roots of corruption, which lie in areas such as election finance, burdensome regulation, high taxes, and so forth. While perfectly true, this criticism misses the centrality of what economists call the “targeting principle”—the idea that, typically, each policy objective requires a specific, targeted policy instrument—a fundamental concept in the theory of economic policy.

In other words, for a policy designed, in effect, as a one-time tax on black money, it is a truism to argue that it cannot by itself tackle future flows of black money. Eliminating such flows will require further reforms. For instance, lowering stamp taxes on property transactions would incentivize the lower levels of evasion associated with such transactions. Further, electronic registration of real estate transactions (and re-registration of existing ownership claims) to match individual identification numbers will go a good distance in minimizing the channelling of corrupt earnings into real estate.

Fifth, it is argued by critics, including some well-known economists, that the short- to medium-run economic impact post 8 November will be contractionary. This is normally assumed to follow from the temporary liquidity shortage induced by an insufficiently fast replacement of old notes with new notes.

Yet, this is not necessarily the only outcome possible. On the one hand, if black money that was actively in circulation (as opposed to being hidden in a mattress) is unreturned to the banking system and is invalidated, the effects, in the first instance, may be contractionary (unless an equivalent sum is printed and spent by the government or delivered as a helicopter drop, as we have previously discussed).

On the other hand, money that has been proverbially hoarded under the mattress, whether white or black, and which has entered the formal financial system via bank deposits, now may grow via the classical money multiplier, assuming a portion of it is loaned out by banks. This could, at the margin, have an expansionary impact, which could be further magnified by standard Keynesian multiplier effects.

Further, ironically, benami deposits by the rich in the names of the poor, may also have an expansionary effect, even in the short run, to the extent that the poor keep a fraction of those deposits for themselves and spend it.

Finally, it has been said that the swap of currency notes has damaged trust in the monetary system. This misses the fact that in a world of fiat paper currency not backed by commodities such as gold, by far the greatest threat to trust in the currency is hyperinflation. It is risible to compare any possible trust deficit in the Indian rupee wrought by the current exercise to the episodes of hyperinflation that have ravaged trust in currencies, leading to their abandonment as a medium of exchange, unit of account, and store of value. In such cases, one typically sees some variation of “dollarisation”, as one has seen in other emerging economies. Yet there is no credible evidence that there has been significant dollarisation in the wake of 8 November. Contrary to what doomsayers suggest, the vast majority of Indians still trust the rupee.

Jagdish Bhagwati, Vivek Dehejia and Pravin Krishna are, respectively, university professor and director, Raj Center on Indian Economic Policies at Columbia University; resident senior fellow at the IDFC Institute; and Chung Ju Yung distinguished professor of international economics at Johns Hopkins University and deputy director of the Raj Center on Indian Economic Policies at Columbia University.

FROM LIVEMINT
. Apologies if already posted ( this is very fast moving thread).
Last edited by Dasari on 27 Dec 2016 09:39, edited 2 times in total.
manjgu
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by manjgu »

Guys...i have to submit a note about a) benefits of demo b) future actions to be taken to support demo.... to a v v v v v v imp person. need the help of all people at BR to help me with points..
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by arshyam »

Dasari saar, could you please post the link as well?
Dasari
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Dasari »

If you go through the five points discussed by the professors above from Columbia and John Hopkins university, you will be able to summarize the benefits and misinterpretations by some pundits.

One thing the above article doesn't touch upon is adoption of cashless transactions (this is outside Demonetization) in reducing the future growth of black money. This is by far the most achievable future course of action to control the growth of BM. Govt is also hinting on operation of Bensmi act as another follow up activity. We don't know the details yet.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Dasari »

arshyam wrote:Dasari saar, could you please post the link as well?
Done.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Deans »

Dipanker wrote:
pankajs wrote:Here is another report on households with access to banking AND this is from a different source/survey.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 005519.ece
‘94.4% households have bank accounts’

And this figure would be about 9-10 months old.

Lets recollect what this great CON man had stated in the name of the rural and poor folks.
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/Ma ... 779252.ece
Making of a mammoth tragedy
Actually both set of numbers could be right. One can have a bank account without a bank branch in the same village. But IMO extrapolating the census figures should be give better estimates.

India has over 600,000+ villages and the total number of bank branches are ~100,000 approx, meaning there are over 500,000 villages without any bank at all and still 70% of of the population lives in villages. So you can do the math.
Debroy makes an important point that critics seem to deliberately overlook. What is important is not the absolute no of people who do not have
bank accounts or cellphones, but the percentage of households who do.
The fact that almost every household in India has an account (and at least 1 smartphone or feature phone) is collaborated by the data on
JDY accounts. About 56 million of these had 0 balances at the start of DeMo, simply because they represented the bottom 25% of HH in India
who are destitute (no savings at all) but who were still reached by the banking system. After DeMo, 55 million of these accounts continue to
have a zero balance, indicating that even after `proxy' deposits by BM holders, the bottom 25% really had no money to deposit.
Moreover, as far as I know, barely a million new accounts have been opened since DeMo (indicating very high penetration of bank accounts).
Surely, if India was unbanked, we'd have millions of accounts opened by now, so that the poor un-banked masses could deposit their high vale notes.

The remaining JDY accounts had seen their deposits increase (early Dec data) by barely Rs 6000 per account (going from about Rs 12 to Rs 18,000
per account). That indicates a cash need of Rs 6000 per account holder - far lower than the cash withdrawl limit.
Thus 25% of households are not impacted by DeMo and another 65% need cash of barely Rs 6000 (typically per month) to get by.

The point about only 1 in 6 villages having a bank branch is misplaced. A village has 1000-1500 people and it is not viable to have 1 outlet serving
1 village. The rural economy is based on clusters of villages. Weather it is a PO, bank branch, school, health centre, police chowki etc. - there are typically a cluster of 5-10 villages served by 1 outlet and the distance a villager has to cover to get to one of these is no different from the distance a village woman often has to walk (daily) to get clean drinking water, or firewood.
Last edited by Deans on 27 Dec 2016 13:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Sachin »

Looks like there is high disunity in the opposition camp. Even the 15 MP wonder like CPI and CPI(M) do not wish to join hands with Congress. Don't know what is causing so much disunity.
Major parties decline Cong invite for meeting
And wondering why bring in a ordinance at the fag end of demonetization exercise.
Govt may bring in ordinance to legalise note ban
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by wig »

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... wkJLL.html

Farmers forced to dump their produce as note ban turns bumper crop worthless
excerpts
Farmers across India are battling a steep fall in wholesale vegetable prices and are forced to discard their produce as a nationwide cash crunch following the scrapping of high-value banknotes hurts demand.

The crash in wholesale prices comes at a bad time for farmers, who reaped a bumper crop and were hoping for good returns to make up for losses induced by two straight drought years.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by prahaar »

Mandis need to get a stick for holding back online payments. Although most farmers have accounts dalals are refusing to pay via cheque or dd or wire transfer.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by kvraghav »

The apmc needs to be scrapped. Its a den of dalaals. The hopcoms in Karnataka was brought in to store and market the vegetable and fruits. It is such a big infrastructure ready made. All Karnataka govt has to do is declare minimum price for vegetables and make hopcoms buy it. Then they can progressively cover losses. Govt of India has to start support price for vegetables and other perishables. There will be initial losses but it can serve single point of sale for big buyers like big bazaar.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Dipanker »

Rishi Verma wrote:
Dipanker wrote:
Your apprehensions seems correct. If they confiscate the cash they will have to do it to all political parties as all of them will have similar cash.

Not saying that Mayawati is not corrupt or for that matters the rest of our politicians, but this raid may have more to do with impending UP poll.
The 108 CR was deposited post-DeMo in official BSP account. It's a legitimate question where the money came from, when. And would require a paper trail. The account will / should be frozen until the money is accounted for, till then BSP won't have chillar to even garland the ambedkar statues.
They can claim all this money to be donated by 50,000+ anonymous donors each donating Rs 20,000 over a period of time prior to DeMo. Anonymous donations of up to Rs 20,000 is legit as per law. They can claim that they were keeping all this cash in their party office chest and now needed to deposit it because of DeMo. Point is they obviously have thought of a reasonable answer before depositing the money in the banks. They also have their lawyers knowing the laws and ready to answer questions. Otherwise you will have to assume that they are really stupid!

Almost all political parties get upto 80% of their donations by such "anonymous" donors. It will hard to just prosecute BSP and not prosecute others.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Abhibhushan »

While a political party need not identify names of individual small doners, they are not exempted from keeping accounts of the amount of money received. If they can produce an audit able account of the monies found then they would be in the clear. I wonder if ther account books would show entries like "amount x received from karyakarta y from place z " or day end summaries indicating Rupees rare held in cash at the office chest as a part of closing balance.
Last edited by Abhibhushan on 27 Dec 2016 13:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Sachin »

Dipanker wrote: They can claim that they were keeping all this cash in their party office chest and now needed to deposit it because of DeMo. Point is they obviously have thought of a reasonable answer before depositing the money in the banks.
Agree with you. But we may also have to consider the damage which would be caused to the party. That is the party cannot just label itself as a poor man's/Dalit's party. It is cash rich, and unless all "poor & Dalits" have become so rich (so as to donate Rs. 20,000 to BSP) then that would be really a wonder of the world. And also note that a few crores have been found in the account of Behenji's bhaai as well. Why should a party fund, go into the leader's brother's account? Yes, BSP can use lawyers to wriggle out of the case, but there could be some damage politically.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Kashi »

Sachin wrote:Agree with you. But we may also have to consider the damage which would be caused to the party. That is the party cannot just label itself as a poor man's/Dalit's party. It is cash rich, and unless all "poor & Dalits" have become so rich (so as to donate Rs. 20,000 to BSP) then that would be really a wonder of the world. And also note that a few crores have been found in the account of Behenji's bhaai as well. Why should a party fund, go into the leader's brother's account? Yes, BSP can use lawyers to wriggle out of the case, but there could be some damage politically.
To understand this you need to fully understand the UP politics and the caste dynamics that factor in there. BSP's core support base will NEVER abandon her- any corruption allegations will be and are brushed aside, either by labelling it a savarna conspiracy or playing the usual game of finger pointing and claiming that if the others are corrupt then why is it such a big deal if a bahujan leader is "simply levelling the field" and why is it that bahujan cannot be rich and corrupt.

BehanJi will run with this, she'll play a victim and a martyr of "elitist conspiracies" and her support base will lap it up. But what she WILL care about is if the money is seized and she's unable to use it for elections. This will hurt her more than any political damage.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Dipanker »

Sachin wrote:
Dipanker wrote: They can claim that they were keeping all this cash in their party office chest and now needed to deposit it because of DeMo. Point is they obviously have thought of a reasonable answer before depositing the money in the banks.
Agree with you. But we may also have to consider the damage which would be caused to the party. That is the party cannot just label itself as a poor man's/Dalit's party. It is cash rich, and unless all "poor & Dalits" have become so rich (so as to donate Rs. 20,000 to BSP) then that would be really a wonder of the world. And also note that a few crores have been found in the account of Behenji's bhaai as well. Why should a party fund, go into the leader's brother's account? Yes, BSP can use lawyers to wriggle out of the case, but there could be some damage politically.
Yupp, that is why in my earlier post I said there was a political angle to the raids on BSP. BJP needs and wants part of BSP dalit votes in order to win, particularly in the eventuality of SP and Congress teaming together.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by pankajs »

wig wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... wkJLL.html

Farmers forced to dump their produce as note ban turns bumper crop worthless
excerpts
Farmers across India are battling a steep fall in wholesale vegetable prices and are forced to discard their produce as a nationwide cash crunch following the scrapping of high-value banknotes hurts demand.

The crash in wholesale prices comes at a bad time for farmers, who reaped a bumper crop and were hoping for good returns to make up for losses induced by two straight drought years.
I recall a story a while back when farmers in the then AP had dumped tons of tomatoes on the Highway to protest low prices being offered like 25 paise to a kg @ the mandis. From memory so the details may be a little off but one can search for the story on the net.

A bumper crop always leads to steep fall prices at the Mandi. Perishable good are highly prone to such a phenomena more than any other stuff and this is nothing new and *may* not be linked to DeMo.

This about the HT story writer. Human mind is a strange beast.
1. Our brains tend to create stories to explain away almost anything. If no story is supplied by facts or prior knowledge it will invent one.
2. In our search for story the mind latches on to the most proximate story in this case DeMo. This is called recency bias.

The above 2 happens automatically even when one is aware of the fallacies of the brain. But if the reporter/paper is pushing a particular point then.
1. Extrapolate / or write in such a way as to give the impression that EVERY farmer is impacted.
2. Link it then to an act of someone whom you oppose to create a cause and effect scenario. You have a captive audience and the other party does not have an opportunity to set the record correct.

Not saying that some farmers are not distressed by the DeMo. Infact a lot of people beyond farming have been impacted but just keep the facts, i.e nature of the perishable market following a bumper crop, in mind while reading such news.
Last edited by pankajs on 27 Dec 2016 13:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by hanumadu »

wig wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... wkJLL.html

Farmers forced to dump their produce as note ban turns bumper crop worthless
excerpts
Farmers across India are battling a steep fall in wholesale vegetable prices and are forced to discard their produce as a nationwide cash crunch following the scrapping of high-value banknotes hurts demand.

The crash in wholesale prices comes at a bad time for farmers, who reaped a bumper crop and were hoping for good returns to make up for losses induced by two straight drought years.
Why is there a cash crunch? Are the households skimping on eating their vegetables or do the wholesalers do not have money? It cannot be the later, because the retailers will be paying for what they buy from the wholesalers and the retailers would be getting it from their customers.

I don't understand the reluctance of the wholesalers (or anybody in the supply chain - retailers to farmers) to accept electronic payment. Is it not better to get something in return instead of throwing away the entire crop for the farmers? Is making a smaller profit not better than not making any profit at all for wholesalers. If they are reluctant to conduct business by any means they can, some body will take their place, steal their customers and vendors. They would have worked hard to be where they are and they won't let it give it away so easily. I am sure they are more resourceful than let DeMo bring a grinding halt to their operations.

The only way I see the any produce going to waste is if the end user, that is, the households are not buying them.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by pankajs »

^^
With prices being stable it is highly unlikely that the end users have reduced their consumption.

It is likely an outcome of a bumper crop for perishables without adequate cold storage capacity. That is the nature of such a crop. Has happened before and will happen again without a means to store them beyond a season.
Last edited by pankajs on 27 Dec 2016 13:10, edited 1 time in total.
hanumadu
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by hanumadu »

pankajs wrote:
wig wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... wkJLL.html

Farmers forced to dump their produce as note ban turns bumper crop worthless
excerpts
I recall a story a while back when farmers in the then AP had dumped tons of tomatoes on the Highway to protest low prices being offered like 25 paise to a kg @ the mandis. From memory so the details may be a little off but one can search for the story on the net.
Tomatoes have always been a special case. I remember price varying between 40 paise to 40 rupees a kilo in a single year many years back. Don't know the situation now.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by pankajs »

Tomatoes are a very very special case but the same applied to rest if the veggies except potatoes, Onions and Garlic. Veggies too have a short shelf life though not as short as Tomatoes. But the general principle applies to all veggies.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Dasari »

This dumping of vegetables, especially tomatoes, happens all the time. In fact there was one just before Demo in the chittoor district of AP. So we don't know whether this is demo related.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by chetak »

hanumadu wrote:
pankajs wrote: I recall a story a while back when farmers in the then AP had dumped tons of tomatoes on the Highway to protest low prices being offered like 25 paise to a kg @ the mandis. From memory so the details may be a little off but one can search for the story on the net.
Tomatoes have always been a special case. I remember price varying between 40 paise to 40 rupees a kilo in a single year many years back. Don't know the situation now.

tomatoes selling in bangalore at Rs 3 per kilo at times now. Fresh green peas in shell at Rs 40 per kg. Many other seasonal and winter veggies prices have dropped significantly and this has nothing to do with note ban.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by hanumadu »

pankajs wrote:Tomatoes are a very very special case but the same applied to rest if the veggies except potatoes, Onions and Garlic. Veggies too have a short shelf life though not as short as Tomatoes.
Remember on this very forum people talking about 70Re/kg of tomatoes about 1.5 - 2 years back and blaming Modi for it. Now its 5Rs/kg in hyd. Guess Modi should get the credit then.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by pankajs »

No No .... How can Modi be given credit? Or he should be given credit for the distress he has caused to the farmers. After all the farmers are suffering because of the low prices and it must be linked to DeMo for which Modi is responsible.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Dilbu »

Sachin wrote:And wondering why bring in a ordinance at the fag end of demonetization exercise.
Govt may bring in ordinance to legalise note ban
Sachin saar there was one article by an advocate in Supreme court. He was arguing that the article and provision of RBI act used for demonetization was not legally valid. He was also claiming that the entire exercise should be challenged in court because it is technically illegal. I think this ordinance is to address that issue and correct the technical issue. JMT.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by gashish »

wig wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... wkJLL.html

Farmers forced to dump their produce as note ban turns bumper crop worthless
excerpts
Farmers across India are battling a steep fall in wholesale vegetable prices and are forced to discard their produce as a nationwide cash crunch following the scrapping of high-value banknotes hurts demand.

The crash in wholesale prices comes at a bad time for farmers, who reaped a bumper crop and were hoping for good returns to make up for losses induced by two straight drought years.
DDM's causal analysis. DeMo is not the primary cause or even secondary.

Winters always see low prices in perishable vegetables, as markets are flooded with produce. This year most regions across India had good rains and ideal conditions for vegetables, resulting in bumper crops.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Rishi Verma »

Sacked TN cheap secretary still crying...

:(( I am Still Chief Secretary :((

As SinghaJi had imagined seems four NSG commandos wearing masks must have pointed Sig-Sauer SSG 3000 on his son's head from four sides.
Chennai: Senior Tamil Nadu bureaucrat P Rama Mohana Rao, who was removed as Chief Secretary after unprecedented tax raids at his home and office last week, alleged today that his life was in danger and his home and that of his son had been "searched at gunpoint".
As expected he finally played the Amma card
"The centre has no respect for the state...If honourable madam had been alive, no one would dare to do this. This is constitutional assault," he said, alleging that he had been under house arrest
He also thanked Didi and Pappu..wow we missed that part
He also thanked political leaders like Mamata Banerjee and Rahul Gandhi for coming out in his support after the raids.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Deans »

kvraghav wrote:The apmc needs to be scrapped. Its a den of dalaals. The hopcoms in Karnataka was brought in to store and market the vegetable and fruits. It is such a big infrastructure ready made. All Karnataka govt has to do is declare minimum price for vegetables and make hopcoms buy it. Then they can progressively cover losses. Govt of India has to start support price for vegetables and other perishables. There will be initial losses but it can serve single point of sale for big buyers like big bazaar.
Hopcoms loses money because it is inefficient. Private retailers like Big Bazaar (I handled the Karnataka circle for a big retailer, some years ago)
buy their fruit and vegetables partly from the APMC ( that is the only place you can buy for e.g. Kashmiri apples) and partly from their own
collection centres, which, at least on paper, buy direct from farmers. Farmers near Bangalore do use whatsapp to compare prices at the APMC yard
and with private buyers (incl. between retail chains), before deciding where to sell.

In practice, because rural infrastructure is so bad and the quantity a farmer can sell so small, the actual number of farmers selling direct to a retailer is negligible. Most purchases from small farmers are done by agents who then sell where the price is highest.

In general, private retailers like Big Bazaar, or big Basket have a 30% markup between purchase price to farmers / APMC and selling price to consumers. Often, it is lower due to competitive pressure. About half this 30% goes into maintaining the back end (collection centres, salaries, IT) and transporting goods to retail points. Another 10 % (at the least) is `dump' (wastage when the produce goes bad - if supply exceeds demand). Thus, even before factoring in the overhead incurred in the supermarket, the business is barely profitable for big name retailers and at the same margin levels would be unprofitable for Hopcoms (who have to pay for a vast bureaucracy that lies between buyer and seller and faces higher levels of corruption e.g. showing higher purchase prices than what is actually paid to farmers).
On items like Kashmiri apples, the gap between farmer and consumer price are much higher due to an inefficient supply chain and multiple taxes
within India (which is why apples imported from China or New Zealand are often cheaper).
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by arshyam »

Dasari wrote:
arshyam wrote:Dasari saar, could you please post the link as well?
Done.
Thanks!
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

If wholesalers are refusing electronic pmt that is because they have been dodging tax all along. Perhaps they need a few gentle suggestions that maybe ED would like to have chai-biscoot/tomato juice in home of any wholesaler who needs electronic pmt instruction. Surprised that chai-wallah has trouble sorting this out, which means the problem is entirely somewhere else. There is no canning/juicing/ other industry that can absorb excess inventory rapidly? Nuclear plants to zap all the tomatos and render them rot-proof for a year? Inventory to distribute as missiles to use at political meetings?

This is a tragic and criminal waste of good food. I don't think there is any retail price reduction, at least in Malloostan.
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Post by UlanBatori »

Deansji: Fascinating insights. Thx.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Vikas »

Kweshun for DDM:

How come DeMo exercise caused prices of tomatoes to crash while prices of Onion and Potatoes is still high (Potatoes@27 and Onion@15 in Reliance Fresh). Why NaMo is discriminating between Potatoes and Tomatoes.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Dilbu »

VikasRaina wrote:Kweshun for DDM:

How come DeMo exercise caused prices of tomatoes to crash while prices of Onion and Potatoes is still high (Potatoes@27 and Onion@15 in Reliance Fresh). Why NaMo is discriminating between Potatoes and Tomatoes.
Also tomatoes are saffron in colour.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by pankajs »

Perhaps we can figure out a minority angle and intolerance angle too if we try hard enough.

Just returned from the bank. No queue. They are giving out 5k per person only. Got my 4k in Rs 50 note. I don't need change. So asked for at least one 2K note. Only 50 Rs note at the branch for today.
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