GST - Discussion on all Aspects

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by disha »

chetak wrote:Should one not expect uniform rates across the country??
Rates are uniform across the country except for liquor and fuel. The reason is simple., booze will always be protected., no need to worry about it there.

On the fuel front, states which actually produce refined petroleum may actually want to keep the cost of importing fuel from other states high. This will actually enable other states to switch to alternative fuels.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by rahulm »

Wow, Karnataka, a Congoon state is showing the way whereas the BJP states are trying their best to maintain the status quo !!

I actually asked some chai wallas and generally here is the deal

1. The Centre- State BJP is not unified at we might expected it to be.
2. The BJP central command issues directions to states (Give us BJP victory in XYZ state at any 'cos't )
3. The state BJP unit says 'Yes sir' and here is the 'cost'. A deal is struck between the respective BJP state unti and the Centre about the items and other orders of state business and corruption that will be left untouched and/or in go slow or look the other way mode.
4. The BJP state unit delivers victory and the Central command keeps,it's part of the deal.

This is the reason why the Central government cannot force things through despite its best intentions. It's somewhat a marriage of convenience between the BJP centre and each State even if it's all,the one party.

And so, the wheels churn and turn and the mess continues.

GST Will increase tax compliance, reduce tax leaks but I don't think it will improve the existing logistical nightmares at inter state borders. Let's see what happens after the e-way bill comes into effect but I don't see much hope. Would be happy to be proved wrong.
Last edited by rahulm on 30 Jun 2017 11:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by disha »

UlanBatori wrote:You think they will get to the point where all that is done automatically as the BlockChain transactions occur? That would be awesome. What I described is probably the future of massively distributed trade in India.
Correct. And the block chain will be linked with Aadhar card or PAN. So now sitting in ulan bator you can do yak herding and yak cheese selling as long as the yaks are in Ladakh, India. All online. Your yak cheese will be processed in Himachal pradesh after shipped from Ladakh and apple flavored value added yak cheese and will make to the distributor of Delhi, loot yens via Kombhu-Cha la expressway. From Delhi it will be airlifted to Ahmedabad and over high speed train will show up in Mumbai retail shops.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by disha »

rahulm wrote:Wow, Karnataka, a Congoon state is showing the way whereas the BJP states are trying their best to maintain the status quo !!
The CONGoon state is high on services and low on manufacturing and hence it makes sense for them to remove the toll nakas and make money of the it-vities in residential sector.

On the other side., several BJP states are high on manufacturing and low on services and hence to protect the local manufacturing, it will set up some sort of naka or other. And because of better governance in the BJP states., there is not much avenue in making moolah in residential sector.

And your chaiwallah is wrong.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by negi »

Rates are not same across the country GST bill has been diluted by allowing states to add their own cess component . Legislations in India are useless they are like negotiations , even RERA bill is the same .
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by rahulm »

Once the 5 year Centre guarantee period expires I fully expect the states to levy all sorts of additional cesses on top,of GST unless the States have Constitutionaly given up that right and I have missed it.

This would bring us back to square one- sort of.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by JohnTitor »

Yes. Cess will be different depending on the state.

While you would think capitalism would push these lower due to competition, in India to will go higher due to bureaucracy. Such is the state of the country
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by JohnTitor »

chetak wrote:Should one not expect uniform rates across the country??
In India one cannot expect anything that is reasonable. Only thing you are entitled to expect is to pay bribes and deal with bureaucracy.

2 steps forward 1 step back.. or is it the other way round?
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by jayasimha »

Image
Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Special Service and Features
30-June-2017 14:30 IST

GST: The Biggest Ever Tax Reform


*Ajay Kumar Chaturvedi

Much awaited Goods and Services Tax (GST) will finally be a reality tonight that would radically change the way manufacturer, service provider, trader and eventually the consumer, pay taxes to the exchequer, both at the state and Central level, through a single levy, subsuming a plethora of indirect taxes and making India unified market.

WHAT IS GST?

GST is a unified taxation system which would end multiple taxation across the states and create a level playing field for businesses throughout the country, much like the developed nations. It is a multi-stage destination-based tax which will be collected at every stage, starting from procuring the raw material to selling the final product. The credit of taxes paid at the previous stage(s) will be available for set-off at the next stage of supply. Being destination or a consumption based, the GST will also end multiple taxes levied by Centre and the State Governments like Central Excise, Service Tax, VAT, Central Sales Tax, Octroi, Entry Tax, Luxury Tax and Entertainment Tax etc. This will lower the overall tax burden on the consumer and will benefit the industry through better cash flows and working capital management. Currently, 17 State and Central levies are being applied on goods as they move from one State to the other.

BENEFITS

Different estimates peg the net advantage to the Gross Domestic Product, up to two percentage points. The GST regime is also expected to result in better tax compliance, thereby increasing its revenue and narrowing the Budget deficit. All the imported goods will be charged Integrated Goods & Services Tax (IGST) which is equivalent to the Central GST + State GST. This will bring equality with taxation on local products.

Mainly, there will be three types of taxes under the GST regime:
1] Central Goods and Services Tax (CGST),
2] State (or Union Territory) Goods and Services Tax (SGST) and
3] Integrated Goods and Services Tax (IGST).

Tax levied by the Centre on intra-State supply of goods or services would be called the CGST and that to be levied by the States and Union Territories(UTs) would be called the SGST respectively. The IGST would be levied and collected by the Centre on inter-State supply of goods and services. Four supplementary legislations approving these taxes, namely the Central GST Bill, the Integrated GST Bill, The GST (Compensation to States) Bill, and the Union Territory GST Bill were passed by the Lok Sabha in May this year, making the realisation of 1st July, 2017 deadline a reality.

All the matters related to the GST are dealt upon by the GST Council headed by the Union Finance Minister while all the State Finance Ministers are its Members. The GST Council also has a provision to adjudicate disputes arising out of its recommendation or implementation thereof.

TAX RATES

The GST Council has fixed four broad tax slabs under the new GST system - 5 per cent, 12 per cent, 18 per cent and 28 per cent. On top of the highest slab, there is a cess on luxury and demerit goods to compensate the States for revenue loss in the first five years of GST implementation. Most of the goods and services have been listed under the four slabs, but a few like gold and rough diamonds have exclusive tax rates. Also, some items have been exempted from taxation. The essential items have been kept in the lowest tax bracket, whereas luxury goods and tobacco products will invite higher tax.

17-YEAR-LONG WAIT

Many countries in the world switched to a unified taxation system very early. France was the first country to do so in 1954 and many others followed, some by implementing GST and others by using a different form of Value Added Tax (VAT). In India, the discussion on GST started in the year 2000, in the NDA Government led by the former Prime Minister, Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee. Finally, after 17 years of consensus building, 101st Constitution Amendment Bill was passed by Parliament in 2016. The States had apprehension of reduction in their revenue and their desire to keep some lucrative goods out of the GST baskets like alcohol, petroleum and real estate among others.

IMPACT ON CONSUMERS

From agarbattis (incense sticks) to luxury cars - all these goods will be taxed under different slabs. Movie tickets costing less than Rs 100 have been kept in the 18% GST slab while those over Rs 100 will attract 28% tax under GST. Tobacco products have been kept under a higher tax bracket. Industries such as textiles and, gems and jewellery are subject to a GST rate of 5%

The Government has shown its strong determination and stuck to implementing the GST with effect from 1st July, 2017. The road ahead would require a lot of resolve by the implementing agencies like the Goods and Services Network, states and the industry. To sail through initial hiccups and successfully steer the ship of the economy, the Government needs to show the same determination and courage. A bold initiative like GST taken for the welfare of the country must lead to a grand success.
******


* The Author is a retired Indian Information Service Officer who writes on developmental issues.

View expressed in the article are author’s personal.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by rahulm »

GST rollout: Traders in Ghaziabad shut shop, halt train in Kanpur in protest
No trader should be prosecuted in the case of any error in documentation and the only pecuniary fine should be imposed
tsk tsk. Bahut takleef ho rahi hai that bribing won't be that easy anymore. Hai hum to lut gaye.
provisions of GST be made more “trader-friendly
ie tax evasion should be made easier

GST rollout in India live updates

Soon after 1 July, I am expecting concessions, amendments, dilutions, extensions, exemptions, revisions and finally a declaration of total victory.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by UlanBatori »

Don't know if this has been posted already, apologies for repeating an IED-Mubarak Since I saw it on Dr. Kalyanaraman's blog I assume that it got that much approval.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by rahulm »

From link above
I feel the political parties should have the courage to alter the basic structure of the Constitution and say that the states should not tax.

I may sound a bit outlandish, but if you want to have one nation, one tax, you have to do this.
He further states a constitutional amendment to delete powers of the state to tax is very complicated and impossible.

I am no tax expert but the current structure does seem fiendishly complex. More like a GST lipstick on a MODVAT CENVAT excise tax pig.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by chetak »

JohnTitor wrote:
chetak wrote:Should one not expect uniform rates across the country??
In India one cannot expect anything that is reasonable. Only thing you are entitled to expect is to pay bribes and deal with bureaucracy.

2 steps forward 1 step back.. or is it the other way round?
it looks like the greedy congis have decided to replace octroi check posts in KAR with what they are calling "physical verification" posts, ie check posts to veryfy that the trucks are actually carrying what they have declared that they are carrying.

the hafta desperate congis are hell bent on cashing in where ever they can.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by srin »

rahulm wrote:From link above
I feel the political parties should have the courage to alter the basic structure of the Constitution and say that the states should not tax.

I may sound a bit outlandish, but if you want to have one nation, one tax, you have to do this.
He further states a constitutional amendment to delete powers of the state to tax is very complicated and impossible.

I am no tax expert but the current structure does seem fiendishly complex. More like a GST lipstick on a MODVAT CENVAT excise tax pig.
I'm not a lawyer, but that argument (reg basic structure) doesn't make sense.

Basic structure is that part of the constitution that can't be changed by Parliament even by constitutional amendment. Sort of immutable rules. Nobody knows what _exactly_ that means (ref NJAC judgement), but fundamental rights, preamble are considered basic structure.

If the powers of taxation were to be part of the basic structure as the author says, then it means that GST constitutional amendment where Centre and states agreed to hand over their powers to GST council, is changing an immutable rule and hence unconstitutional.

To take over the taxation powers from the states, all that the centre needs to do is pass a constitutional amendment and get that ratified by majority of states. Fat chance of latter happening in the current scheme of things (which anyway he notes). It can happen in one instance though - the central govt and state govt are all paying obeisance to a single family.

But, all the reference to basic structure is complete BS.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by rahulm »

in less than 5 hours from now we shall have the GST. This is as exciting as a GLSV launch except I have mor faith in ISRO

I paid off my outstanding dues to wood and brick merchants this afternoon. All using BHIM onlee.i was told plywood is going to attract 28% and bricks 18% from tomorrow both substantial increases from existing rates.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by JayS »

http://realty.economictimes.indiatimes. ... d/59379595

Change in rates at eleventh hour. From the article:
MUMBAI: The government has notified the goods and services tax rate for construction of real estate at 18% as against 12% announced earlier.

Along with this, the government has also allowed deduction of land value equivalent to one-third of total amount charged by the developer.
Looks like they have unified "residential construction work contract" and "work contract" now. This will bode well for some and not so well for some.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Are books going to be more expensive? In case I buy a book online now and it is delivered by Tuesday will Amazon charge differently in comparison to what the are showing now CoD?
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by geeth »

Pay your credit card / utility bills etc..today. service tax will be 18% from tomorrow. I did it when prompted by BSNL
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by geeth »

UlanBatori wrote:You think they will get to the point where all that is done automatically as the BlockChain transactions occur? That would be awesome. What I described is probably the future of massively distributed trade in India.
If it doesn't happen that way, GST will collapse anyway.


Contrary to what some people post, states have conceded their power to tax on items in the GST list. The cess is introduced because the states insisted on compensation for 5 years and centre did not want to take on additional burden incase of lower tax collection. If tax collection is more than expected, rates may come down. (But with Modi in control I doubt-he may use additional income for development)

Anyways, GST is still evolving. I dont see much og a change, because, a substantial portion is already being done. For eg., for interstate purchase, you have to generate a E-Waybill even now (and stand in queue at checkpost as well) , match the sale and purchase (presently done by the tax offials in the websiite, which after GST will become automatic) The advantage with GST is that you will see any mismatch within that month itself...in the present system, the tax office will find it after a few months or years..and send notice. By then you may not have all the records or the other party is not cooperating. Finally end up paying fine and bribe. This is deliberate way to make mony now
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by geeth »

Further, the biggest advantage is that whatever tax you pay on purchase or spend for business purpose can be adjusted against whatever you collect against sale. Except for the SGST n CGST cannot be deducted against each other, but both can be done against IGST..if you purchase without bill, you can reverse and claim later. At present all these are not possible. Additionally, in the present regime, many of the raw material have 12.5% central excise, 5% CST plus 5% or more state VAT plus service tax for inward carriage. Against sale, at present you can only adjust 5% VAT. Others are not refundable and is a loss. If in work contract, you have to pay purchase tax also, if you buy goods like sand, agregates, cement or any other items from unregistered dealer, which is not refundable. If you dont show it they will calculate standard 30 or 40% on overall cost and you have to pay purchase tax on that, again nonrefundable.

What GST aims to do is codify all these nonsense and collect tax on the value addition in the true sense of it. It is not 100% perfect because still some tax refunds cannot be claimed against each other, but over the years it would evolve into seamless operation.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by UlanBatori »

18 to 28% tax every time you add value, is going to make India as economically competitive and attractive for real employment-generating enterprise as, say, Sierra Leone. Perhaps it has already reached there, except ppl could pay 2% bribe and avoid the rest.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by Karthik S »

There will be teething issues, and govt will learn as we go along. I do believe we may some changes to the structure going forward.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by geeth »

Should one not expect uniform rates across the country??
The rates are uniform across the country for all items listed in the GST Code.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by geeth »

UlanBatori wrote:18 to 28% tax every time you add value, is going to make India as economically competitive and attractive for real employment-generating enterprise as, say, Sierra Leone. Perhaps it has already reached there, except ppl could pay 2% bribe and avoid the rest.
I will be able to sell my products cheaper than it is now, with 5% /14.5% VAT today, than 18% GST tomorrow!
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by UlanBatori »

Too much anyway. Why should I give 18 percent to the govt every time I do something useful I wonder. Time for an Anti-Tax Revolution in India.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by Atmavik »

UlanBatori wrote:Too much anyway. Why should I give 18 percent to the govt every time I do something useful I wonder. Time for an Anti-Tax Revolution in India.
start a Chai(TEA) party in india. oops we alreday hae a chaiwalla in power
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by UlanBatori »

Hey, if all I have is bank deposits generating some 6% interest, and a few stocks of companies, some of which pay dividend of a few paise, do I need to worry about Signing Up Under GST (as my banks/stock company are screaming at me to do)?
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by Suraj »

GST comes into effect in less than half an hour. A huge change in our system!
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by JohnTitor »

geeth wrote: Contrary to what some people post, states have conceded their power to tax on items in the GST list. The cess is introduced because the states insisted on compensation for 5 years and centre did not want to take on additional burden incase of lower tax collection.
So are you saying that after 5 years there won't be any more state determined cesses? If not then irrespective of whether tax on all items is the same across the country, different cesses in different states will violate the one nation one tax notion. Call it what you want but different cesses in different states will lead to different prices for the same item
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by disha »

UlanBatori wrote:Too much anyway. Why should I give 18 percent to the govt every time I do something useful I wonder. Time for an Anti-Tax Revolution in India.
Sir., Never thought mongolians in ulan bator use bidi patta and swim pools and paddles every day - they attract 18% and as Geeth sar already said it is cheaper than current 19.5%! Okay I take back the paddle part.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by prasannasimha »

You dont have to worry about GST. That tax is related to services provided by them not you !!
Also 18% is on net value addition (for banking). Most other countries have a much higher GST than India since you seem to be going ballistic over the taxation rates here. Our rates are from 0 to 28 % but there is actually not so much change barring a few % for some things with the new GST role out. Inf act many things will see a decrease in commodity prices over the next year.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by prasannasimha »

If you see the net state + central combined tax in the previous tax regime, things will be cheaper especially if there is interstate movement.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by geeth »

JohnTitor wrote:
geeth wrote: Contrary to what some people post, states have conceded their power to tax on items in the GST list. The cess is introduced because the states insisted on compensation for 5 years and centre did not want to take on additional burden incase of lower tax collection.
So are you saying that after 5 years there won't be any more state determined cesses? If not then irrespective of whether tax on all items is the same across the country, different cesses in different states will violate the one nation one tax notion. Call it what you want but different cesses in different states will lead to different prices for the same item
I dont think you got it right...under GST, states have no power to charge tax or cess. It is decided by the GST council. Whatever the council dedides is applicable for the whole of India.
The GST council is formed by state finance ministers as members and union finance minister as chairman. The centre has 1/3 voting right and states 2/3. In case of disagreement, it is put to vote and pass is 50% of state votes + central vote IIRC...to check).

So, Even after ( or before) 5 years, any change in tax structure or any other matter has to be aaproved by the GST council. States cannot do anything on their own.

It is another matter they can continue to loot the public on liquor, stamp duty and petroleum products, since these are out of GST list.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by JohnTitor »

geeth wrote: I dont think you got it right...under GST, states have no power to charge tax or cess. It is decided by the GST council. Whatever the council dedides is applicable for the whole of India.
The GST council is formed by state finance ministers as members and union finance minister as chairman. The centre has 1/3 voting right and states 2/3. In case of disagreement, it is put to vote and pass is 50% of state votes + central vote IIRC...to check).

So, Even after ( or before) 5 years, any change in tax structure or any other matter has to be aaproved by the GST council. States cannot do anything on their own.

It is another matter they can continue to loot the public on liquor, stamp duty and petroleum products, since these are out of GST list.
Ah I understand.

But then what's the cess for? If the cess is 2% and the GST rate is 12%, is the final tax rate 14%? As I understand it, the cess seems to be a stealth tax.

Different websites articulating this differently. Hence the confusion
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by chetak »

JohnTitor wrote:
geeth wrote: I dont think you got it right...under GST, states have no power to charge tax or cess. It is decided by the GST council. Whatever the council dedides is applicable for the whole of India.
The GST council is formed by state finance ministers as members and union finance minister as chairman. The centre has 1/3 voting right and states 2/3. In case of disagreement, it is put to vote and pass is 50% of state votes + central vote IIRC...to check).

So, Even after ( or before) 5 years, any change in tax structure or any other matter has to be aaproved by the GST council. States cannot do anything on their own.

It is another matter they can continue to loot the public on liquor, stamp duty and petroleum products, since these are out of GST list.
Ah I understand.

But then what's the cess for? If the cess is 2% and the GST rate is 12%, is the final tax rate 14%? As I understand it, the cess seems to be a stealth tax.

Different websites articulating this differently. Hence the confusion
it needs a min of 70% of the votes in the GST council to pass anything.

At the best and the worst cases, the centre has full control and also veto.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by geeth »

JohnTitor wrote: Ah I understand.

But then what's the cess for? If the cess is 2% and the GST rate is 12%, is the final tax rate 14%? As I understand it, the cess seems to be a stealth tax.

Different websites articulating this differently. Hence the confusion
At present cess is only on goods with 28%. But Rate of cess is different and is supposed to be charged to compensate for loss in revenue.

It may be pertinent to note that the GOI insisted on keeping the max rate at 28%( they actually wanted it at 24%), though there was stiff opposition from baboons like Thomas Issac of ...you know from where.., who wanted to keep the rate at 40%. IIRC, there is another clause in the law, which says the whole of cess money will be pocketed by central govt and central govt can withdraw cess on any item partly or fully at any time without the permission of the GST council, since it is a temporary arrangement to compensate for the losses during transition period. Total cess collection is expected to be between 50-60,000 crores during first year. Hope it clarifies.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by UlanBatori »

40%! For THIS we toiled on the Silk Road? Makes my head spin. Anyway, since I don't add value to anything I suppose I have nothing to worry about. Nor do politicians or baboon.
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by SaiK »

moi thinking, GST is higher because there are less IT paying public. Either it is middle class or the rich swindle by not even reporting (assuming). So, central gov (which is unlike massan federation of states that drive for tax autonomy), makes these brackets pretty steep following european models.

If it is going to be sales tax driven economy, make income Tax Zero, and bump up all GST to a flat tax of 30%. just saying. I think it is fair to keep taxes at 30% +/- combined both income and sales taxes. If I earn 100 bucks, 30 bucks I share with gov as my taxes, is a great move. simplify and standardize. but people who get paid by cash will never report. move to a cashless economy, and make everything 30%.

we may agree for this, but GoI and state govs will feel the pinch! they don't want to destroy any milking cattle at this point of time [also consider those who might not purchase at all.. living on tax free income - possibility - yes]
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by JohnTitor »

geeth wrote:At present cess is only on goods with 28%. But Rate of cess is different and is supposed to be charged to compensate for loss in revenue.

It may be pertinent to note that the GOI insisted on keeping the max rate at 28%( they actually wanted it at 24%), though there was stiff opposition from baboons like Thomas Issac of ...you know from where.., who wanted to keep the rate at 40%. IIRC, there is another clause in the law, which says the whole of cess money will be pocketed by central govt and central govt can withdraw cess on any item partly or fully at any time without the permission of the GST council, since it is a temporary arrangement to compensate for the losses during transition period. Total cess collection is expected to be between 50-60,000 crores during first year. Hope it clarifies.
Thanks geeth.

24%, let alone 28% is high.

The maximum should be 20% or less. But of course that is only to dream in a country like india.

Hopefully with increased IT base and revenue, they will push it lower.
rahulm
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Post by rahulm »

Geeth thanks for the explanation.

A diagram explaining how the pre-GST slabs were merged and the % of tax paying people in each GST slab Image

31% are in 18%
28% in 12%
25% in 28% and
7% in 5%
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