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GST - Discussion on all aspects.

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
JayS
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby JayS » 11 Nov 2017 20:08

manjgu wrote:i mean was the GST team on drugs when they decided to have 28% on so many items !!! which are of daily use..non luxury. toothpaste..soap...fan..pumps..shitpots ( and this when we wanna encourage Swach Bharat and no open defacation) !!! I dont believe it. generally the lowest and highest tax slab will have less no with a bulge in between...but looks it was skewed so muchhh. Cement and paints still in 28% category... come on.

That rate is nominal rate on finl sale value. While effective rate is actually that minus the ICT which in some cases like houses can be actually more than this effectively making the item tax neutral. This reduction due to ICT should be reflected in reduction in sticker prices. As such when I checked last time, only a small percentage of items had more rate under GST thn they had previously when all taxes combined. This simple fact is lost on people, perhaps because previously those taxes mostly remained hidden while GSt shows up on the bill. Anyhow GST was by design tax neutral, AFAIK only reall increase in tax rate for common man was hike of ST from 15 to 18%. Cement for example had 26-27% min tax even before GST. Without telling what was tax incidence preGST, there is no point talking bout GST rates, neither without considering effect of ICT which was only available partially eg CENVAT.

Please try to dig out what was net tax impact based on these factors on items u listed above.

To be fair no one knew how much would be tax collection beforehnd. Now that GSt council has data for a Q they perhaps could afford to reduce some tax due to net increase in tax collection.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby disha » 11 Nov 2017 20:42


Supratik
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Supratik » 12 Nov 2017 15:53

An explanation for why GST regime was pruned,

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

chetak
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby chetak » 12 Nov 2017 21:09

about time that someone asked for explanations from param poojiya narayana murty.

He considers himself the boss of infosys for all other purposes anyway, no?? especially when questioning a legally constituted board on the strength of his really tiny minority holding.



Infosys under scanner for GST glitches

Infosys under scanner for GST glitches

By NAVTAN KUMAR | New Delhi | 11 November, 2017



The role of Infosys, which was assigned the work of creating, updating and maintenance of the GST portal, is under scanner as traders are complaining about its poor performance.


The role of Infosys, which was assigned the work of creating, updating and maintenance of the GST portal, is under scanner as traders are complaining about its poor performance.

Traders have decided to raise the issue before Finance Minister Arun Jaitley. The move comes following the GST Council reducing to just 50 the number of items in the highest tax rate of 28%, at its 23rd meeting in Guwahati this week. The Council decided to reduce the tax rate on 178 of the 228 items from 28% to 18%, with effect from 15 November. It also took many decisions to simplify the return filing rules to ease compliance burden, providing much needed relief to the traders’ community.

Praveen Khandelwal, secretary general of the Confederation of All India Traders, told The Sunday Guardian: “Even after four months of GST implementation in the country, the GST portal which was supposed to function properly from 1 July, is still working like an experiment project, causing immense harassment to the traders, who are very much disgusted with the portal. It is like a nightmare for us. We will take up the issue with the Finance Minister.” Khandelwal is also a member of the Advisory Group to Law Review Committee of the GST Council.

Khandelwal even went on to say that Infosys and other companies concerned are responsible for the failure of the portal and therefore, the government should conduct a probe by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI), as to why they failed to provide an efficient portal. “It is like betraying the nation,” he added.

The trade body has demanded a third party audit into technical and other issues related to the portal. It has also urged the government to release a White Paper on the status of the GST portal. It said there should be investigation on what conditions the work was awarded to Infosys and other companies and negligence on their party for non-performance of the contract.

“It should also be investigated whether it amounts to any scam in destabilising the GST taxation system. The poor functioning of the portal has given a bad name to a good taxation system,” Khandelwal said, adding “it is because of the malfunctioning of the portal that traders are unable to become GST compliant”.

Khandelwal said that in the last three years, over Rs 1,400 crore has been spent on the portal, but the results have been far from satisfactory. “The failure of the portal could be gauged from the fact that the date for filing of GST return for July month has been extended up to 30 November, besides several other compliances. he added

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Prasad » 12 Nov 2017 23:17

Fear of revenue loss abates as GST collections gain momentum
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/EBCd6j ... entum.html

Key bit
A state finance minister, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that the major jump in the tax base that will be visible in the near future will be in direct taxes as more small businesses and traders start disclosing their revenue and pay income tax.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby kiranA » 12 Nov 2017 23:42

JayS wrote:
To be fair no one knew how much would be tax collection beforehnd. Now that GSt council has data for a Q they perhaps could afford to reduce some tax due to net increase in tax collection.


There was no net increase in tax collection. Their was massive decrease - just the rate of decrease came down over last 2 months. However the council reduced due to political factors in my opinion. I dont have the confidence they really thought through any implications.

Suraj
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Suraj » 12 Nov 2017 23:49

kiranA wrote:
JayS wrote:
To be fair no one knew how much would be tax collection beforehnd. Now that GSt council has data for a Q they perhaps could afford to reduce some tax due to net increase in tax collection.


There was no net increase in tax collection. Their was massive decrease - just the rate of decrease came down over last 2 months. However the council reduced due to political factors in my opinion. I dont have the confidence they really thought through any implications.

Data please.

JayS
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby JayS » 12 Nov 2017 23:51

kiranA wrote:
JayS wrote:
To be fair no one knew how much would be tax collection beforehnd. Now that GSt council has data for a Q they perhaps could afford to reduce some tax due to net increase in tax collection.


There was no net increase in tax collection. Their was massive decrease - just the rate of decrease came down over last 2 months. However the council reduced due to political factors in my opinion. I dont have the confidence they really thought through any implications.


You missed the word "perhaps". I was speculating with a logically plausible reason. That report (in ET?) about numbers and trend and political reasons came later or at least I read it later. However I do not quite believe on election being one reason. Simply becuase its the GST council which decides the rates and not GOI. Last I checked not all states are BJP governed. I also doubt that the parties who go gaga over non issues all the time would silently get arm twisted by BJP into accepting this move which would hurt them bad politically. Thats simply absurd to consider even as a possibility.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Suraj » 13 Nov 2017 01:04

Govt tax collection gets bumper start: India's first GST revenue of Rs 92,283 crore explained
Finance Minister Arun Jaitley on Tuesday released the country's maiden GST revenue data that surpassed government's internal expectation of Rs 91,000 crore revenue and recorded tax collection of Rs 92,283 crore from just 64.42 per cent of the total taxpayer base. This tax collections are for July and the numbers are likely to go up when all the tax payers file returns.

The government's highest planning body Niti Aayog recently said that due to an efficient tax system post-GST, tax revenue is expected to grow (in a baseline scenario) to Rs 26.48 lakh crore by 2019-20 from Rs 17.03 lakh crore in 2016-17. It predicts a 14 per cent growth in 2017-18, followed by 16 per cent and 17 per cent in the next two financial years. It further predicts the indirect tax buoyancy to grow from 1.06 per cent in 2017-18 to 1.11 per cent in 2018-19 and 1.17 per cent in 2019-20.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby putnanja » 13 Nov 2017 07:24

manjgu wrote:i mean was the GST team on drugs when they decided to have 28% on so many items !!! which are of daily use..non luxury. toothpaste..soap...fan..pumps..shitpots ( and this when we wanna encourage Swach Bharat and no open defacation) !!! I dont believe it. generally the lowest and highest tax slab will have less no with a bulge in between...but looks it was skewed so muchhh. Cement and paints still in 28% category... come on.


The main issue is that the traders/businesses took the govt for a ride.

GST rates were basically done in a way that the earlier Central VAT/Excise + state taxes = new GST rates. And many of them were either avoiding it or was included in the price. Once GST came about, the traders started charging GST on top of original price. And many of the news reports carried big headlines on 18-28% GST but didn't mention that it was same rates as earlier.

The restaurants and other small businesses started charging GST on the items even though they were paying similar taxes (if paying) earlier. The public perception was that the govt increased taxes even though it was the businesses trying to use GST to raise prices.

Hence the correction, and also reducing the GST on restaurants/small traders. These are the businesses which were raising prices under pretext of GST and since people go to these traders the most, the public perception was that the govt raised taxes. Hence the move to lower GST rates.

These rates are lower than pre-GST, but hopefully with more businesses coming under tax net, it will work out. Else govt finances will be under tremendous pressure next fiscal.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Nov 2017 15:54

manjgu wrote:i mean was the GST team on drugs when they decided to have 28% on so many items !!! which are of daily use..non luxury. toothpaste..soap...fan..pumps..shitpots ( and this when we wanna encourage Swach Bharat and no open defacation) !!! I dont believe it. generally the lowest and highest tax slab will have less no with a bulge in between...but looks it was skewed so muchhh. Cement and paints still in 28% category... come on.


If you check the past you would note that there Higher taxes before this, as per your logic country was on "drugs" for 70 years and only honest fools paid taxes, now more people are paying taxes due to transparency.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby manjgu » 13 Nov 2017 16:06

Putnanja /Aditya V ... GST has been a good reform but a PR disaster IMHO.. ...the point that u both have highlighted shuld have been advertised by govt...like pre/post GST rates of various items... that would have taken out the steam from the -ve propoganda about GST.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Supratik » 13 Nov 2017 21:39

KiranA is as usual bluffing. GST collection so far has been robust even though all have not paid up yet. Back of the envelope collection is 185 billion dollars per year just from GST.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Supratik » 13 Nov 2017 22:07

GST collection expected to turn revenue neutral by Feb-March.

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/EBCd6j ... entum.html

vijayk
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby vijayk » 14 Nov 2017 10:04

Does anyone have information to comment on what a friend said?

Currently in India banks are robbing customers. Now they have transaction fee on every transaction. There is Rs 499 ATM card monthly fees which has 18% GST. If you order checks, that is another transaction with fees and it has GST. If you make 8% interest in CD, transaction fees with 18% GST.

I don't have account to verify in India. Can anyone comment?

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby JayS » 14 Nov 2017 10:24

vijayk wrote:Does anyone have information to comment on what a friend said?

Currently in India banks are robbing customers. Now they have transaction fee on every transaction. There is Rs 499 ATM card monthly fees which has 18% GST. If you order checks, that is another transaction with fees and it has GST. If you make 8% interest in CD, transaction fees with 18% GST.

I don't have account to verify in India. Can anyone comment?


Looks like some idiot forwarded watsapp msg without thinking. Its so easy to fool people, even the so called "well educated" ones.

What is CD btw..?

All these services were charged Service Tax at 15%. NOw under GST, tax on Services is 18%. Thats all. I have been consistently saying on this thread. The only real pinch middle class has from GST is that ST is hiked from 15% to 18%. Otherwise taxes have gone down or remained same. Its the profiteering by some crooks or adding taxes where previously no taxes were being paid, see steep rise. But one cannot argue against it. Thats people's fault not the government's.

Here is an article from May this year showing ST charges on various services. For your reference:

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/mon ... 692609.ece

IMPS fund transfer charges through internet banking/UPI/IUSSD will be Rs. 5 plus service tax for amounts of up to Rs. 1 lakh; Rs. 15 plus service tax for above Rs. 1 lakh and up to Rs. 2 lakh; and Rs. 25 plus service tax for above Rs. 2 lakh and up to Rs. 5 lakh.

Service charges for exchange of soiled/imperfect notes, up to 20 pieces and value of Rs. 5,000 will demand no charge. More than 20 pieces will invite Rs. 2 per piece on the entire tender plus service tax. For value above Rs. 5,000, Rs. 2 per piece or Rs. 5 per 1,000 plus service tax, whichever is higher on the entire order will be levied.

For example, for 25 pieces of Rs. 500 that is equal to a value of Rs. 12,500, the charges will be Rs. 2 per piece (Rs 50 plus service tax) and Rs. 5 per Rs. 1,000 (Rs 62.50 plus service tax). Amount to be charged will be Rs. 62.50 plus service tax.

Issue of a 10-leaf cheque book will now cost Rs. 30 plus service tax; 25-leaf book, Rs. 75 plus service tax and 50-leaf book at Rs. 150 plus service tax.


That's about GST.

Now about transaction costs - Private banks always have had steep transaction charges on all such small small things. 5000-10000/- Min balance which means 400-1000 rupees per year as loss of interest. You want statement pay 50 bucks. You want signature verification pay 100 bucks. Heck some charges are ridiculously high. Once I closed my HDFC account because they have excessive charges of 750/- if you mis one SIP mandate. Now I exclusively use SBI, because they charge only 25/-.

MNC banks are even worst. Banks like HSBC and all, if you want to open Saving account, you have to maintain minimum balance upwards of 75000/- in it. And all those transaction charges also apply.

Its obvious that with falling interests, the bank will need to charge more to maintain the accounts if they want to keep their margins. Some people still live in Nehruvian Era and think everything for them should be free or bankrolled by government.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby prahaar » 14 Nov 2017 14:02

Any information about GST APIs for real time monitoring of tax filings? This can be a great tool to obtain interesting information by mining the filings based on different categories of tax returns. Tax filings should be made public, so that it is possible to know each GST entity's income. Limiting my discussion to GST (since this is GST thread), but the concept could/should easily be extended to IT as well.

Imagine, a business person going around in a luxury car but ends up in zero tax bracket, there will be nowhere to hide. This is quite common practice in many parts of the world.

Is this level of transparency good or bad for India?

arshyam
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby arshyam » 14 Nov 2017 18:16

Err, debit card fees are annual. Wish folks can do basic verification before posting...

[Added l8r] The default card that comes with a savings account has no fee. It does not have a name, so it is not personalized. If one wants a personalized card, there are options with the above mentioned annual fees.
Last edited by arshyam on 14 Nov 2017 18:41, edited 1 time in total.

Mort Walker
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Mort Walker » 14 Nov 2017 18:35

Aditya_V wrote:
manjgu wrote:i mean was the GST team on drugs when they decided to have 28% on so many items !!! which are of daily use..non luxury. toothpaste..soap...fan..pumps..shitpots ( and this when we wanna encourage Swach Bharat and no open defacation) !!! I dont believe it. generally the lowest and highest tax slab will have less no with a bulge in between...but looks it was skewed so muchhh. Cement and paints still in 28% category... come on.


If you check the past you would note that there Higher taxes before this, as per your logic country was on "drugs" for 70 years and only honest fools paid taxes, now more people are paying taxes due to transparency.


What this means is that the tax burden is too high. There are too many categories and the whole of GST is a paperwork burden on productive businesses. Rates must come down and the filling burden must be reduced, otherwise there will be political consequences like losing elections.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby JayS » 14 Nov 2017 18:43

Mort Walker wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
If you check the past you would note that there Higher taxes before this, as per your logic country was on "drugs" for 70 years and only honest fools paid taxes, now more people are paying taxes due to transparency.


What this means is that the tax burden is too high. There are too many categories and the whole of GST is a paperwork burden on productive businesses. Rates must come down and the filling burden must be reduced, otherwise there will be political consequences like losing elections.


Is that what you concluded..? Well one benefit of GST is that at least public got to know that tax system in India was outdated and arcane. If GST is considered a burden, imagine what earlier system was like... :lol: :lol:

Mort Walker
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Mort Walker » 14 Nov 2017 19:10

No. See how taxes in other countries work. If taxes are too high or the burden too great, people and companies will avoid them. The earlier system was not enforced, but a new enforced system that is still complex presents a burden.

If taxes are too high and the paperwork burden a pain, and we should accept it, then be prepared for electoral defeat. There is too much too lose to see the forces of adharam come back.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby JayS » 14 Nov 2017 19:24

Mort Walker wrote:No. See how taxes in other countries work. If taxes are too high or the burden too great, people and companies will avoid them. The earlier system was not enforced, but a new enforced system that is still complex presents a burden.

If taxes are too high and the paperwork burden a pain, and we should accept it, then be prepared for electoral defeat. There is too much too lose to see the forces of adharam come back.


Lets take one step at a time. The biggest achievement for GST currently is bringing entire indirect tax regime under single system (I hope soon fuel, liquor and RE will be brought under GST too. I think once the states are convinced of no loss of revenue they will agree for this). GST is already a huge simplification over the previous tax regime. In some other country It would have been hailed as a big achievement. But due to anti-BJP propaganda people are being impressed that GST has increased tax and its very cumbersome, which is blatantly incorrect. The simplification and reduction are far easier to implement now that's GST framework is established. Enforcing tax regime is much easier now. Its a continuous process, will take a few years to find new equilibrium. Luckily current government is quite agile and responsive. GST not only increased indirect tax compliance but also has significant impact on direct tax compliance. Once the direct tax picks up, indirect taxes will go down eventually. But we need to wait for the things to pan out properly (already people are cursing government for going too fast :lol: ). Its not a one shot thing. GST is, according to some, a single biggest reform since independence.

BTW I do not agree that companies or people avoid tax if rates are high or if rates are high people try to avoid taxes. There are other factors to be considered such as perception of people about what they are getting back or corporate greed. But that's irrelevant discussion here.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Supratik » 14 Nov 2017 21:47

Current GST recovery is equivalent to 170 billion dollars annually. But reports suggest only 65% have paid up. Which means one-third is still to come. This will take the numbers to 10% of GDP. If IT is taken as nearly 3% of GDP and 1-2% coming from other sources tax to GDP ratio should be nearly 15%. 17-18% is comfort zone which can be reached with expansion of economy and formal sectors. So two reforms i.e. demo and GST has nearly solved India's tax to GDP ratio problem. Will get clear picture end of financial year.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Mort Walker » 14 Nov 2017 22:28

JayS wrote:Lets take one step at a time. The biggest achievement for GST currently is bringing entire indirect tax regime under single system (I hope soon fuel, liquor and RE will be brought under GST too. I think once the states are convinced of no loss of revenue they will agree for this). GST is already a huge simplification over the previous tax regime. In some other country It would have been hailed as a big achievement. But due to anti-BJP propaganda people are being impressed that GST has increased tax and its very cumbersome, which is blatantly incorrect. The simplification and reduction are far easier to implement now that's GST framework is established. Enforcing tax regime is much easier now. Its a continuous process, will take a few years to find new equilibrium. Luckily current government is quite agile and responsive. GST not only increased indirect tax compliance but also has significant impact on direct tax compliance. Once the direct tax picks up, indirect taxes will go down eventually. But we need to wait for the things to pan out properly (already people are cursing government for going too fast :lol: ). Its not a one shot thing. GST is, according to some, a single biggest reform since independence.


I agree about bringing the entire indirect tax system under the GST regime. No arguments about that. The problem lies in the fact that GST rates are simply too high and there are too many slabs/categories. For example, for milk there is no GST, but for cream and skim milk powder there is 5% GST. Sure GST can be tweaked, but this sort of stuff is asinine. The rules should be simple, for example - any kind of food (unprocessed or not), there should be no GST. Instead foods of different category fall under 0, 5, 12, and 18% GST. Food was simply an example I gave and there are other areas which don't make sense. Now please don't argue that it was higher under the previous system - because it wasn't, since it was not paid nor enforced. Make the rules simple, so more people pay GST and accept it, otherwise be prepared to accept electoral defeat. We must remember at the end of the day - THE GOVERNMENT PRODUCES NOTHING NOR DOES IT PRODUCE WEALTH. IT IS THE PEOPLE OF INDIA THROUGH THEIR INGENUITY WHO CREATE WEALTH.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Prasad » 14 Nov 2017 22:41

Saar,
GST rates will be flattened saar. Please read himanta biswas interview about recent gst changes and what they foresee. Already states are realising that revenues aren't going to be hit and that rationalisation of rates will lead to higher revenues. So expect fewer slabs and lowering rates on many things.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Supratik » 14 Nov 2017 22:43

Tax regime is expected to be rationalized once system settles down and numbers are known. Without numbers these types of discrepancies will occur as neither state nor central govt will want revenue loss. Also GST regime is determined by both state and central govts with different parties. So this constant whine about loosing elections is a red herring. Finally all processed food items go through an industrial process and all industrial activities are taxed.

Mort Walker
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Mort Walker » 14 Nov 2017 22:52

Supratik wrote:Tax regime is expected to be rationalized once system settles down and numbers are known. Without numbers these types of discrepancies will occur as neither state nor central govt will want revenue loss. Also GST regime is determined by both state and central govts with different parties. So this constant whine about loosing elections is a red herring. Finally all processed food items go through an industrial process and all industrial activities are taxed.


By using simpler categories and rates codified makes it politically difficult for a future government to play with categories. Losing seats in the Lok Sabha is a real issue come 2019.

Food was an example I used to show that there are too many categories within a category. The GST in its current form is a regressive tax.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Supratik » 14 Nov 2017 23:14

GST rates are not codified. The Congress and very specifically Rahul Gandhi and Chidambaram wanted a fixed 18% rate which was rejected. 3-4 slabs is not earth shattering. IT has 4 slabs. Obviously you are not going to tax khakra and Mercedes under the same rate. In the previous regime there were nearly 100.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby JayS » 15 Nov 2017 00:14

Mort Walker wrote:
JayS wrote:Lets take one step at a time. The biggest achievement for GST currently is bringing entire indirect tax regime under single system (I hope soon fuel, liquor and RE will be brought under GST too. I think once the states are convinced of no loss of revenue they will agree for this). GST is already a huge simplification over the previous tax regime. In some other country It would have been hailed as a big achievement. But due to anti-BJP propaganda people are being impressed that GST has increased tax and its very cumbersome, which is blatantly incorrect. The simplification and reduction are far easier to implement now that's GST framework is established. Enforcing tax regime is much easier now. Its a continuous process, will take a few years to find new equilibrium. Luckily current government is quite agile and responsive. GST not only increased indirect tax compliance but also has significant impact on direct tax compliance. Once the direct tax picks up, indirect taxes will go down eventually. But we need to wait for the things to pan out properly (already people are cursing government for going too fast :lol: ). Its not a one shot thing. GST is, according to some, a single biggest reform since independence.


I agree about bringing the entire indirect tax system under the GST regime. No arguments about that. The problem lies in the fact that GST rates are simply too high and there are too many slabs/categories. For example, for milk there is no GST, but for cream and skim milk powder there is 5% GST. Sure GST can be tweaked, but this sort of stuff is asinine. The rules should be simple, for example - any kind of food (unprocessed or not), there should be no GST. Instead foods of different category fall under 0, 5, 12, and 18% GST. Food was simply an example I gave and there are other areas which don't make sense. Now please don't argue that it was higher under the previous system - because it wasn't, since it was not paid nor enforced. Make the rules simple, so more people pay GST and accept it, otherwise be prepared to accept electoral defeat. We must remember at the end of the day - THE GOVERNMENT PRODUCES NOTHING NOR DOES IT PRODUCE WEALTH. IT IS THE PEOPLE OF INDIA THROUGH THEIR INGENUITY WHO CREATE WEALTH.


Please show me one item which saw significant jump in taxes post GST (apart from services). And, do subtract Input Tax Credit while calculating net tax incidence. Then we can talk about if GST rates are too high or not. And it DOES matter what were the taxes previously or how complicated the system was, simply because the taxes were being paid by honest people. It doesn't matter what crooks were doing, because being on the wrong side they have no moral ground to stand on. In fact the government has literally given one time amnesty to all defaulter who are coming under the tax regime. That is more than sufficient discount. You simply cannot have an argument that it was not enforced or paid previously thus something should be done. Thats not an argument at all. Thats like saying, since previously I was not paying tax, you should charge me lesser tax. I don't care if others have already been paying higher taxes or it was criminal of me to invade taxes.

Personally, I simply see no significant impact on my bills after GST come into being. So I don't really understand whats the whole brouhaha is about. I have done quite a bit of study on GST because I had to buy property and had to make a decision on whether to buy it before or after 1st July. I cannot find any real issue with the system as such, given real life limitations. The GSTN filing network is real screwup (thanks to Infosys) and initial limits for composite schemes and filing limits were too low, I thought. And that is taken care of now. They also reduced filing to quarterly for smaller businesses. Also one more objection I had was regarding this stupidity of charging AC tax in non-AC sections or even on delivered food. Now they slashed rate to 5% flat. So things are improving as we speak. Yes, GST can be simpler, can have lesser slabs. And that is imminent. Already government has hinted that it will happen. Its happening quicker than I expected in fact. In an ideal world, indirect taxes should tend to Zero.

Regrading electoral defeat - well if majority of Indians think that they are better off with crooks who kept the country backward for decades, rather than the government which has made progress on every imaginable parameter by leaps and bounds in short time, just because they have to now abide by laws and are feeling some pinch in short term, then I think India deserves to remain backward and have people like Rahul Gandhi to Rule over them. Reminds me of the meme going on on WhatsApp couple of years ago, 'people would will rather vote in those who didn't do Anything for decades, because they feel Modi didn't do Everything'..!!

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Suraj » 15 Nov 2017 00:37

Far too much energy is being expended on the GST rate numbers and items that fall into various slabs. Let me repeat what I stated previously: GST rates are design by committee

They are not the result of a single group of bureaucrats under PMO carefully and logically vetting everything. Instead, it is the result of more than two dozen states with divergent economic concerns and motives in a horse trading session, all wanting certain things to be taxed at certain levels in order to assure revenue neutrality as quickly as possible to them.

The central government does not have a major role in GST rate setting. The Union Finance Minister is one of N finance ministers at the GST council. The first order of business leading to July 2017 was to get GST online. However, to get there, the primary impetus was NOT the consumer. Rather, it was the states. The states had to be happy with the rate agreement in order to let GST happen. States were primarily concerned about their revenue and not the consumer, at that time.

Once GST came into operation, states can now look back at the consumer feedback and rationalize the rates to actually have logical basis and line up with consumer imperatives. That's what has just happened.

The GST Council has a website:
GST Council
It's members are listed here - all 30+ of them:
GST Council members
and a Twitter:
https://twitter.com/gst_council

You can actually give your feedback there.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby arshyam » 15 Nov 2017 07:28

I don't see anything wrong with 0% tax on unprocessed food and some x% on processed food products. The processing is an industrial activity and should attract tax, whereas raw food, while also an industry in its own right, is closer to people's day to day lives and we should be careful in adding some tax. One can live without processed food, and so on...

My issue with the current regime is the minutae of taxes on individual items - ghee at a certain rate, milk powder at another, and so on (these are just examples to convey the idea). While Jaitley rationale is sound (cannot tax Mercedes and khakra at the same rate), this variation makes it difficult for the consumer to check on how much taxes they actually pay on a grocery bill - stores could easily cheat here since they simply show a total SGST + IGST at the bottom of the bill. Over time, I hope they get to the point of having taxes on categories such as on food (raw): 0%, and food (processed): x% and be done with it.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby manjgu » 15 Nov 2017 08:53

aeshyam ...will khakra be raw or processed? though i agree with u that a simpler tax regime is required.. raw/processed is a good way to define. while I applaud the Govt for GST...there is a perception problem...a) the aam janta thinks tax rates have increased ( rightly or wrongly) since one big item as GST comes in the bill ..which was not so earlier. this is one aspect govt should address ..show taxes have reduced not increased b) when generally people are paying tazes there is a expectation that the tax money will be used for their welfare ..things like improved schools, hospitals, roads, drainage. But this never happens and so the motivation to do wrong things. there should be perceptible improvement in the services offered to common citizens... c) a case in point is pollution cess being collected from trucks entering delhi...crores have been collected but not spent on controlling pollution.

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby A_Gupta » 15 Nov 2017 18:31

http://www.thehindu.com/business/Econom ... 445047.ece

India’s goods exports growth declined by (-) 1.12% in October this year to $23 billion, the lowest pace of growth since (-) 6.86% in July 2016, which was the last time the shipments growth fell in the negative growth territory, according to data released by the commerce ministry on Tuesday.

The fall, the first after 14 consecutive months of positive growth, was understood to be due to the impact of the Goods and Services Tax (GST) on the export segment. Twelve of the 30 major export groups registered a decline in October, including labour-intensive sectors such as gems and jewellery (-24.51%), ready-made garments (-39.23%), carpet (-31.32), handicrafts (-9.08%), man-made yarn/made-ups (-5.91%), and leather items (-9.81%). Also in the red were electronic goods (-6.75%), drugs and pharmaceuticals (-8.75%), mica, coal and other ores (-4.19%), fruits and vegetables (-27.53%), tobacco (-7.98%).


T.S. Bhasin, chairman of apex engineering exporters body EEPC India, said in a statement that “the setback can be traced to disruptions due to roll out of the GST that resulted in squeezing of working capital for exporters. Otherwise, there is no other plausible reason for the exports to fall in the midst of recovery in the global markets which was so evident in the previous months.” He further said, “Though engineering exports continued to grow by double digit (11.77% growth in October), the pace has slowed,” adding that “we hope that the new refund regime for the exporters works well.”

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Suraj » 16 Nov 2017 02:28

Will meet FY-18 tax revenue aims if current rate of GST collection persists: Finance Secretary
After the first major overhaul of the goods and services tax (GST) rates last week, wherein the GST Council reduced rates on 210 items, Finance Secretary Hasmukh Adhia says that the government will achieve FY-18 tax revenue target. “We will meet FY-18 tax revenue aims ,if the current rate of GST collection persists,” Hasmukh Adhia told BTVi, adding that the government is done with major rejig for now. For the year ending March 2018, the government had budgeted Rs 9.68 trillion revenue collection from customs and GST.

Hasmukh Adhia also said that higher compliance will offset losses from GST rate cuts. Further, the recently appointed Finance Secretary said that the government is yet to start talks on inclusion of petroleum products under GST. He explained that lowering GST on cement would have led to revenue loss of Rs 10,000 crore. Last month, oil minister Dharmendra Pradhan had said that efforts are on to build a consensus with the state governments over bringing in petroleum products under the ambit of the Goods and Services Tax (GST).

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Mort Walker » 16 Nov 2017 06:02

Supratik wrote:GST rates are not codified. The Congress and very specifically Rahul Gandhi and Chidambaram wanted a fixed 18% rate which was rejected. 3-4 slabs is not earth shattering. IT has 4 slabs. Obviously you are not going to tax khakra and Mercedes under the same rate. In the previous regime there were nearly 100.


That is the approximate VAT rate in Europe. Which IMO is too high.

The GST has 6 slabs (0.25, 3, 5, 12, 18, and 28%) to it with over 200 categories in each slab. It is too complex and many more categories need to be with no tax. The 12 and 18% slabs need to be consolidated to a 10% slab.

Some things are crazy like nuclear fuel, nuclear sodium and heavy water at 5% GST. This is an a critical area for energy, development of technical expertise and defence. The user of these items is the GoI and often the buyer too. Yes, some private companies will buy these nuclear materials, but the user again is GoI. We want to spur growth in this area and should be at zero GST. Nuts. It proves the GST council has not given this much thought instead of saying, for example,"...any items used for handling of matter with an atomic weight of 85 or greater shall have no GST."

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Mort Walker » 16 Nov 2017 06:06

Suraj wrote:
Hasmukh Adhia also said that higher compliance will offset losses from GST rate cuts. Further, the recently appointed Finance Secretary said that the government is yet to start talks on inclusion of petroleum products under GST. He explained that lowering GST on cement would have led to revenue loss of Rs 10,000 crore. Last month, oil minister Dharmendra Pradhan had said that efforts are on to build a consensus with the state governments over bringing in petroleum products under the ambit of the Goods and Services Tax (GST).


What is the current petroleum fuel tax rate?

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Ankit Desai » 16 Nov 2017 07:16

Delhi crosses GST target in October

Delhi reached a milestone in Goods and Services Tax collections, registering a 23% increase in October over all taxes collected during the same month last year. More importantly, the capital crossed the 'break even' point for the month by moving to the positive side of the Centre's 14% cumulative growth target, which translates to a monthly revenue of Rs 1,818 crore.


October's Rs 2,364 crore collection was 23% higher than last year's October tax collection of Rs 1,920 crore. In July, the tax collection from GST and VAT from petrol and liquor was Rs 2,228 crore which was 18.5% higher than last year's July collection of Rs 1,880 crore for the same month. In August, it was Rs 2,315 crore which was 35.74% higher than last year's August collection of Rs 1,705 crore. It further shot up to Rs 2,358 crore in September which was 38% higher than last year's September collection of Rs 1,699 crore.


-Ankit

Suraj
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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby Suraj » 16 Nov 2017 07:51

Mort: please do your bit of google searching to post data you’re interested in, rather than expecting it of others .

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby vijayk » 16 Nov 2017 07:59

https://twitter.com/rishibagree/status/ ... 1921347584

Rishi Bagree
@rishibagree
10h10 hours ago

Until now we were blaming and brandishing the govt as thugs and looters but the real looters are Restaurant owners and Hoteliers.
They cant hide behind Input credit as most of their raw material are taxed at 0%

Image

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Re: GST - Discussion on all aspects.

Postby vijayk » 16 Nov 2017 08:25

^^ This is how Modi is getting screwed. Middle class blames him only. There is no control over this loot. They are getting the rebates, screwing customers and BJP will get shock of their life. It doesn't look like they are even paying attention to this.


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