Bharat Rakshak

I am trying to track & calculate the economic impact of a clean India.

This thread is to track various cleanliness measures that succeeded and the outcomes of those (news/blogs/photos/twitter) and various situations where a cleanliness measure faltered and led to uncleanliness and the outcomes (news/blogs/photos/twitter)

For example if a village is declared Open Defecation Free., what was the economic impact of it on the village? It can be measured in health impact (burden of disease reducing) or it can be measured in terms of additional tourism. It need not be at village level. It can be at site level.

Additionally., this thread can encourage "clean spaces". Clean neighborhoods or clean gardens or clean tourist spots.

Mods., I will leave it to your discretion to close/merge this thread. But at least the poll must continue for 7 days.

"Will you ever do it" option is not necessary for poll. But kept it just to create a mindspace and answers can be posted here.

My answers:

1. Sometimes
2. I will *NEVER* do it.

Why in Tech & Economic forum?

I hope this thread helps in "toilet tech for the masses". Of course cleanliness has real and tangible economic impact.

I voted
Sometimes (like when visiting village or when guests had to come and no avl. toilets)

Back in our farm, I will always poop out in the fields and wash bum in the running water nearby - even if I had access to the Indian style toilet.

Elsewhere I will hold, unless I have diarrhea or something and it just cannot be helped.

Gus'ji., why would you do open on your farm? I would like to know the reasons. Some villages are reverting back to OD inspite of having toilets and was wondering if the reasons are the same.

Gus wrote:Back in our farm, I will always poop out in the fields and wash bum in the running water nearby - even if I had access to the Indian style toilet.

Elsewhere I will hold, unless I have diarrhea or something and it just cannot be helped.

Wut ? Isn't this exactly the kind of unhygienic behavior that is being discouraged by OD-free efforts ? This leads to contamination of running water and probably the surrounding water bodies due to runoff. Not to mention insect-borne diseases.

Does pooping outdoors in wilderness qualify?

Right...one guy pooping in a 5 acre farm will cause "contamination issues".

KL Dubey wrote:

Gus wrote:
Wut ? Isn't this exactly the kind of unhygienic behavior that is being discouraged by OD-free efforts ? This leads to contamination of running water and probably the surrounding water bodies due to runoff. Not to mention insect-borne diseases.

Lol where do you think yours is going everyday? At least in a farm it gets decomposed. The millions that get into the sewage system and contaminate urban groundwater is a much bigger concern.

Theeran wrote:Lol where do you think yours is going everyday? At least in a farm it gets decomposed. The millions that get into the sewage system and contaminate urban groundwater is a much bigger concern.

That's the problem. There should be dedicated system for carrying sewage from houses and offices to the treatment facilities and this should be completely separate from storm drains and as such should not be allowed to mix with ground water, not until after treatment that is.

The solution lies in building better sewage transport and treatment facilities and not open defecation on a mass scale.

Kashi wrote:

Theeran wrote:Lol where do you think yours is going everyday? At least in a farm it gets decomposed. The millions that get into the sewage system and contaminate urban groundwater is a much bigger concern.

That's the problem. There should be dedicated system for carrying sewage from houses and offices to the treatment facilities and this should be completely separate from storm drains and as such should not be allowed to mix with ground water, not until after treatment that is.

The solution lies in building better sewage transport and treatment facilities and not open defecation on a mass scale.

Right. There is no point in building these facilities (toilets, sewers, treatment plants) when even educated people decide not to use toilets every time they go to a rural area.....

[youtube][/youtube]I have a suggestion folks., there is no need to moralize on one's choices. If one has a land or island where they can feel private., they may wish to do be with nature and that is their call.

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Gus'ji., thanks for being candid. From my pov., What you are saying is that you have ample privacy and you can do whatever you want. It has nothing to do with rural unavailability or urban overloading of sanitation options.
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It is interesting to see the stats even in a limited sample. Basically., almost half of the ppl poll'ed had to go out in open!

In the village(s)., there are either fewer toilets or no toilets. This was even after 40 years of independence. And going out in open was clearly demeaning. Worse one could not go out in night! Or in Rain. There was this constant fear of being bitten either by some scorpion or reptile.

It turns out that there are several simple designs and low cost alternatives to build one. It is cheaper than a TV!

Annoying music aside., this is a good video

Even in a 5 acre farm open defecation is not medically OK. Pathogens contaminate soil. The toilet acts as a biodigester and kills harmful bacteria while allowing "good" bacteria to proliferate. It is a misconception that plain poop is equal to compost/fertilizer.

Just to add some more videos., for a good cause - all help is welcome!

prasannasimha wrote:Even in a 5 acre farm open defecation is not medically OK. Pathogens contaminate soil. The toilet acts as a biodigester and kills harmful bacteria while allowing "good" bacteria to proliferate. It is a misconception that plain poop is equal to compost/fertilizer.

Agree. Also there is the question of surface water contamination.

Also are there orgs we can support who are involved in toilet building in villages?

Clean India is not only open defecation free., there are other options.

I was impressed by this village in NE:

venue wrote:TED Talk video

I do want to point out venug' that the moment the PYT introduced "caste" I lost interest.

There is stigma associated with handling feaces everywhere in the world. And not just India.TED

And here is the ODF survey:

http://www.swachhbharaturban.in/sbm/hom ... 0a4vbe6kg5

It belies the above TED talk.

Kashi wrote:

Theeran wrote:Lol where do you think yours is going everyday? At least in a farm it gets decomposed. The millions that get into the sewage system and contaminate urban groundwater is a much bigger concern.

That's the problem. There should be dedicated system for carrying sewage from houses and offices to the treatment facilities and this should be completely separate from storm drains and as such should not be allowed to mix with ground water, not until after treatment that is.

The solution lies in building better sewage transport and treatment facilities and not open defecation on a mass scale.

of course..

but what's happening (at least where my house in chennai is) - people pipe it to a sump and let it collect there and then when it fills up, they call this septic tank (kazhivu neer oorthi ) truck which sucks it up and people pay and then just don't care where it goes. For all we know, he is driving to outskirts and letting it flow out.

and that's the end of our thoughts about it..other than trying to avoid driving or stopping near that LCV truck in road as there could be spillage on you

and somehow this is hygienic because it is not "open defecation" as I do in my own farm. at least I push mud over it when I am done..

Interesting stats so far.,

12 had to do it in open and some do not mind
13 never had to do it.
2 held on tight., so they actually come in in the "would have done it if the will to not do it crumbled" ., they go to 12+2 in my unscientific poll.

Put it this way., in this unscientific poll., half of us with access to internet and having professional jobs did not have access to toilets!

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Gus'ji., if the "kazhivu neer oothi" trunk actually uses it as a fertilizer and if tech exists to convert it to fertilizer., would you then be convinced?

If people notice the village "mawlynong, meghalaya"., it attracts tourists by the dozens. And the village charges them to "keep it clean".

I think all villages in India can go that route. Followed by small towns and then followed by tier-3, tier-2 and tier-1 cities.

We have several school and college going kids., can they be put to use?

Mawlyngong, meghalaya.

Fabulous, they have shamed the rest of India.

Found this image of Chinese city planners creating massive dedicated bicycle lanes for commuters. The ride, finish, comfort, shade, greenery and safety for the cyclists is simply top notch. Kudos to them: would love to see such infra in India.

disha wrote: Gus'ji., if the "kazhivu neer oothi" trunk actually uses it as a fertilizer and if tech exists to convert it to fertilizer., would you then be convinced?

I think there is some misunderstanding here. Why are you arguing as if I am for open def or I need "convincing"? I am only saying I do that when I am back in my farm...

when some went ewwww...I had to point out that in cities, we don't know where it all ends up. There is an 'out of sight...out of mind' aspect in the city that I wanted some attention to.

Kashi wrote:That's the problem. There should be dedicated system for carrying sewage from houses and offices to the treatment facilities and this should be completely separate from storm drains and as such should not be allowed to mix with ground water, not until after treatment that is.The solution lies in building better sewage transport and treatment facilities and not open defecation on a mass scale.

This would work if you were planning totally new residential/offices, however if these were existing structures the disruption would be unacceptable. In order to move waste along sewers you would need quite a lot of running water. that's just not possible in a water stressed country like India.

A better solution might be small communal cess pits linked to bio gas extractors, the residue can then be collected (odourless and dry) and used as fertiliser.

This is used in countries like Brazil.
The biogas can be used to run an electrical generator.

If people do not want a toilet in their home, it is no problem, a small communal toilet block would be perfect.

tandav wrote:Found this image of Chinese city planners creating massive dedicated bicycle lanes for commuters. The ride, finish, comfort, shade, greenery and safety for the cyclists is simply top notch. Kudos to them: would love to see such infra in India.
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b ... 66fb9825-c

You can't have such nice things if your population is a bunch of selfish morons and law enforcement is non-existent. There are dedicated bike lanes in Ghaziabad with high visibility paint, dividers and all that jazz. Most of it is illegally occupied by vendors and rest is used as parking by locals.

disha wrote:If people notice the village "mawlynong, meghalaya"., it attracts tourists by the dozens. And the village charges them to "keep it clean".

I think all villages in India can go that route. Followed by small towns and then followed by tier-3, tier-2 and tier-1 cities.

We have several school and college going kids., can they be put to use?

I was there last year. They just burn most of their garbage including all kinds of plastic.
What exactly do they charge and where ? I don't remember paying anything there. BTW, way too many churches there. I remember seeing atleast 5 in just that one area.

The crap has to be relieved the Indian style only, as that posture would be ideal for bowels and also the pressure on pancreas​ would keep diabetes away. It's OK to crap in farms, I don't know why some learned doctors have a different opinion. It's hygienic. In fact, the septic tank is very unhygienic but we can't avoid in an urban set-up.

If a good sewerage system is there, we don't need septic tanks​ at all.

Even today, in downtown Madras (George town) none of the residential homes have septic tanks, it's too good.

And Indus valley civilization is famous for good civil engineering in sewerage system.

All this toilets in every home etc, is bokwas, it's government duty to plan and implement good sewerage system (underground). All sewerage boards are dens of corruption and incompetent. Instead Modi Sarkar wants to fool public. It's publicity stunt, the villages used to be clean and the cow dung would repel all the germs when mopped on the floor, but Modi Sarkar wants the Indian to ape west, which is cold and they can't crap outside and developed a good system for their convenience and we have to follow their standard and increase the harpic sales.

TKiran wrote: In fact, the septic tank is very unhygienic but we can't avoid in an urban set-up.

In the West, septic tanks are rarely installed in urban areas, so they are not unavoidable. I do agree a good sewage system should be the primary means. In the rural areas, developing a proper sewage system will take much longer than the faster solution of discharging to septic tanks. Otherwise ODF will not disappear anytime soon.

It's publicity stunt, the villages used to be clean and the cow dung would repel all the germs when mopped on the floor

Villagers presumably don't crap on the floor of their dwellings. The village might look"clean", but the surrounding area where everyone goes for ODF is NOT clean and is a source of disease. Many people go for ODF in fields where there are standing crops.

Anyway, these ways will not work with increasing pressure of population and land use. The argument of "cold countries" makes no sense. Do rural people in densely populated (and not really "cold") developed countries rely on ODF ?

Modi sarkar has taken a great step of getting the population to form the right habit and has done a good job providing facilities to make it sustainable. There is certainly much more to be done. To call it a publicity stunt is silly.

One of my cousins in Punjab was crippled by Polio when he was a child, he was married off to a polio victim as well.
The infection route for polio is fecal> oral. Ok polio is under control in India, infact I believe it has been irradicated.
however there are a host of other diseases that are spread by human $hit.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?dcr=0&s ... 3ih85P6-GQ

It is nasty.
OD needs to be made a social taboo. No ifs or buts.

There are so many solutions to it.
It is a source of fertiliser/compost and biogas energy.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?dcr=0&s ... JZ0DBOZzzg

Whats the difference between India and Bangladesh other than religion?

From one of the comments

You do not need to empty the simplest latrine at all!
1) dig a pit
2) make a cover (made of cheap planks) to stand on with a hole in the middle
3) the cheapest wall you want, maybe a door and a roof if you feel rich
4) when it fills, dig another one
5) move the building you have over the new pit
6) cover the old one with the dirt you have just dug out and plant a tree/bush on it
Thus no moving of feces involved.
Everyone does it like that. We Russians make such outhouses when we can't afford something better or can't be bothered to

Perhaps there are solutions to the problem of cleaning septic pits?
https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/03/ ... lage-home/

Check how Balbir Singh Seechewal is cleaning up the water and using it for farming. Dr. Abul kalam, Baba Ramdev all have kind words for him.

Here he did this to a small city (Dasuya, Punjab)

jamwal wrote:I was there last year. They just burn most of their garbage including all kinds of plastic.

Thanks for the lowdown on Mowlynong. At the same time a better garbage incinerator will help and also generate electricity from it and provide local opportunities.

What exactly do they charge and where ? I don't remember paying anything there. BTW, way too many churches there. I remember seeing atleast 5 in just that one area.

Large tracts of NE has been allowed to go EJ way. But that is a topic for another thread. In the video I posted., they seem to collect some "tolls".

Caveat FWIW... I have financial interests in technology mentioned below.

The reason that Indian rivers and water bodies are still polluted even though CAPEX investment to install STPs has been made... Is the lack of OPEX allocation and essentially post construction the municipal authorities do not have funds to operate the system and the sewage is allowed to bypass the STP and fed into the rivers. Below is a example of breaking this chain by using the PPP model using sustainable low life cycle, space saving technology. NDMC is piloting this initiative to demonstrate viability nationwide.

http://www.millenniumpost.in/delhi/jait ... lan-262190

The Soil BioTechnology (SBT) treatment system is designed by Vision Earthcare Pvt Ltd (VEC). Web: http://www.visionearthcare.com contactus [at]visionearthcare.com . VEC is a "Make in India /Swacch Bharat" startup incubated at Society for Innovation and Entrepreneurship (SINE) IIT Bombay http://www.sineiitb.org. VEC is providing a platform technology solution called Continuous Advanced Multistage System using Soil Bio Technology (CAMUS-SBT/CSBT) for Waste Water Recycling. CSBT system can be integrated into or camouflaged as a beautiful green space within and very close to Human habitation. VEC and its partners have deployed PPP mode waste water recycling projects using CSBT in New Delhi Municipal Corporation (link below). Multiple projects are ongoing in the Bangalore area also. 100+ plants have been delivered so far.
https://twitter.com/LtGovDelhi/status/8 ... 8272411649

Vision Earthcare CSBT Public Release Folder with Lot of Detail

Vision Earthcare Public WEb Presentation

Waste Water Recycling process called CAMUS-SBT uses the power of soil ecology to undertake waste water treatment. CAMuS-SBT is far superior to conventional systems in terms of life cycle costs, inclusive of power costs and water quality outcomes as compared to conventional technology. Some technology videos
1) Development of SBT

2) Process flow of 2.5 lacs population 25 MLD treatment plant


A Brief Note on CAMuS-SBT (Continuous Advanced Multi Stage Soil Bio-Technology): CAMuS-SBT is a proven green technology invented by Professor H.S Shankar and team at IIT Bombay and further refined by the Vision Earthcare team at SINE IIT Bombay. The treated water is used for various purposes such as gardening, flushing, process water needs and construction. The most attractive features
1)Low life cycle costs 2)Completely customized solution as per the demographic requirements 3)Low power consumption along with the green ambience 4)Small footprint per KLD capacity 5)Can handle fluctuating loads 6) Can be built very close to habitation due to odor free and noise free operations

It is actually a sad situation., Indians are undisciplined and unhygienic. Every step of the way, I do find resistance among Indians - local or abroad to change their hygienic ways for the better. Abroad they might be worried about not running afoul of laws and hence more careful., but once they can get away with it., they do return to old ways.

I have to point to this travel blog: https://theplanetd.com/india-is-filthy/

The above is little old., but please do not try to defend India's filthiness. It is filthy - period. We are conditioned to think that it is somebody else problem and run away from the mess we create. And sometimes wallow in it and saying "we are like that only"