AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

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NRao
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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby NRao » 27 Apr 2019 04:05

UB,

I came across this article .... NOT AI ............. June, 2018

How Blockchain Technology Can Prevent Voter Fraud

I would think someone in India has already visited this idea.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby ArjunPandit » 29 Apr 2019 18:01

^^Nrao, i had similar thoughts a couple of years back, but after they busted the silk route and the fact that so far no one couldnt find out who satoshi nakamoto is..both give me a scary feeling.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby NRao » 30 Apr 2019 01:08

ArjunPandit wrote:^^Nrao, i had similar thoughts a couple of years back, but after they busted the silk route and the fact that so far no one couldnt find out who satoshi nakamoto is..both give me a scary feeling.


I happen to think that India's wealth is Indian brain power. Frankly, I think this brainpower compensates for "lack of funds" (granted it is not linear).

But ...........................

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby NRao » 30 Apr 2019 01:10

Folks here are a ton of books on AI, in PDF format.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Apr 2019 01:26

Thanks!

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby NRao » 30 Apr 2019 02:32

Arjun ji,

I think the topic of "AI" is just too complex for such threads. May I suggest that you open it up to include microprocessors too? Arduino and the like. Perhaps Raspberry Pi too?

I think Microprocessors will reach more Desi youngsters.

????????

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 Apr 2019 02:36

NRao wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:^^Nrao, i had similar thoughts a couple of years back, but after they busted the silk route and the fact that so far no one couldnt find out who satoshi nakamoto is..both give me a scary feeling.


I happen to think that India's wealth is Indian brain power. Frankly, I think this brainpower compensates for "lack of funds" (granted it is not linear).

But ...........................

not sure if i get your drift in the current context..we have been conducting elections in a reasonably fair manner for last 20+years using the electronic voting machines. Not that I am against adoption of new technology, but without proper risk assessment it is a bit challenging. More practical applications of DLT that an provide benefits are land records, digitization of certificates. Yes this may be tested for say BBMP to see how this goes. But at the same time against the mentality consultant mentality of throwing house to fire and see what can be eaten as barb-e-cue. Having seen cycles of these, esp in this space, I have seen a lot of investments are done just so that CEO/CTO/CIO get to speak in forums, without any tangible benefits. Had been part of a project where consutlants were hired to find out the benefits of DLT based product and a ML based in a cards based company. The spin aside the tangible immediate benefit was incidental. My point in this context being that we are already ahead of rest of the world in this space. No need for us to rush ahead of ourselves, when there are 1000s of other areas that are crying for funding and can provide proverbial bang for buck.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 Apr 2019 02:38

NRao wrote:Arjun ji,

I think the topic of "AI" is just too complex for such threads. May I suggest that you open it up to include microprocessors too? Arduino and the like. Perhaps Raspberry Pi too?

I think Microprocessors will reach more Desi youngsters.

????????

Sir,
1. I am not very well versed with that field.
2. After my near pass with 8085 and my inablity to grasp the multiplication algorithms :rotfl: and p/np O(n) problem in previous lives. I am scared to open. If you would like to contribute there, I can contribute. But I will be worse off than noobs there.
3. Anyways hounding hungrily on teetar till 23 may with random "babes in woods", the liberal ones. WIll return in full swing here after 23

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby NRao » 30 Apr 2019 02:52

For very serious "AI" folks. 2 hours 35 mins long. Tesla's investor day brainwashing :)

Meant for geeks. Covers (1) custom made chip for autonomous driving, (2) AI component - very simply put NN, (3) software dev and (4) of course Elon's brainwashing session. Having said all that it is very interesting. Elon predicts (it looks like The Good Lord made him just for that) that drivers in the future will reject non-autonomous vehicles - in about 3-4 years!!!!!

Anyways, this vid provides a very picture of what is involved for a world-class "AI" project.


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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Apr 2019 03:51

I have a serious pooch. AI/ML are hyped as huge skills/trades with massive employment base. Of these, could you list what aspects are **NOT**** suited to be done in a remote, say rural, location if enough Internet connectivity is assumed as a given? IOW, the "cloud" can literally reach everywhere by sat - e- Lite with burst mode upload and download, and massive computation done at server sites.

If Blockchain server farms can be set up in massive warehouses in remote Mongolia (Scientific Mongolian article about a year back) then why not in say, rural Rajasthan with on-site solar power?

So the default assumption is the entire AI/ML foodchain can be distributed to rural-dwelling Oracle Operators (RDOO) with some money-counting/ Brainstorming done in city skyscrapers with rooftop helicopter access and ocean views. What parts of the foodchain ***CANNOT** be done distributed in rural areas?

This is a huge thing. Imagine if 95% of the Eye-Tea commuter rush is moved out of urban Bengaluru to rural Telangana, Rajasthan, Manipur and Arunachal. Any reason not to?

Also imagine these pastoral regions being infested with the B'luru EyeTea crowd with their odd hours, strange pseudo-AmirKhani language and false names (I am Keith...). 400% conversant with Construction Standards, Hyooman Rites laws, Civil Code .... in lands that used to run by Loya Jirga. :eek:

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 Apr 2019 04:53

You know that entanglement has been only tested for short distances... Only in China..

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby Anujan » 30 Apr 2019 09:25

Elon is a gasbag as far as his predictions are concerned. Tesla chip is okay, its nothing to write home about. Autonomy is incredibly difficult and his predictions of autonomy by year end will rank along with Bill Gates' prediction that Spam would be solved in a year or so by microsoft (in 1998)

Autonomy will happen though. It is the only economically viable way to operate a taxi service like Uber and Uber/Lyft has shown that there is big bucks riding on it.

UB. Its hard to predict the trajectory of AI/ML. One way of thinking about ML is that it makes people extremely productive while programming computers. One does not need to understand the problem domain to program a solution. Like a wise man once said

Every time I fire a linguist, the performance of our speech recognition system goes up


It is somewhat like computers in that regard. What are the jobs that computers will make obsolete? How will they affect the economy? Hard to say when computers were getting deployed. Turns out, their greatest use is to order screwdriver from amazon, watch pr0n, troll others on twitter. ML will have similar unpredictable effects.


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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby NRao » 03 May 2019 04:26

Dated. June, 2018

National Strategy for Artificial Intelligence (PDF)

Focus Areas for AI Intervention:
* Healthcare
* Agriculture
* Education
* Smart Cities and Infrastructure
* Smart Mobility and Transportation


Salient Features of NITI Aayog’s “National Strategy for Artificial Intelligence, India”. By- Utpal Chakraborty
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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby UlanBatori » 03 May 2019 04:43

My thinking is along job creation and sustainability in rural India, for post-modern stuff like AI. Initial work is mostly going to be
(a) a very very few good jobs in algorithm brainstorming,
(b) millions of jobs in the equivalent of 1990s "DOO": data entry.

But quickly, the (a) will figure out how to reduce the (b) by automating that. More and more "data" will come in digital form, or be analog, but with new sensors developed to automatically measure and digitize them. IOW, where the nurse (or my doc) asks: "How ARE youuuuu?", carefully sensing facial expression, voice intonation etc, tomorrow u may just stand b4 a sensor suite (or wear one) and that will send all data on the answer without even asking the pooch.

So the Massive Data Entry part has finite lifetime. Also the BackOffice Data Processing will be increasingly automated. So what jobs will "remain"?

The answer is in stuff like "self-replicating machines": Also, on-the-fly programming like they are doing/considering on long space missions with Reconfigurable Robots: you don't know what environment you face until you are well on your way on 2-year mission, with data coming in from your leading probe that went there 3 years ago. AI may demand the generation of human thinkers who can direct AI to new problems. Seems very far-out now, but may happen very fast. These are borderline Philosophers and they can be located anywhere. The applications will multiply in geometric progression or exponentially, and the complexity of making sense of all these applications will rise as exp(exp()) so there may be jobs to predict what the philosphers are going to predict.

IOW, nothing there that really requires commuting 2 hours to a cubicle to sit for 8 hours and commute back. Can be done in any village.
OTOH there will always be good jobs in computer maintenance and Internet line troubleshooting. Plus Customer Service. Also can be done from any village.

AP: Pls confirm that the above post has absolutely no knowledge or information. That will be the other feature of 99.99% of "AI". Hot air.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby NRao » 03 May 2019 04:54

UlanBatori wrote:My thinking is along job creation and sustainability in rural India, for post-modern stuff like AI. ......................


For that, I think you need to follow advice from Dr. S. Swamy. I very much doubt AI can help in this regard.

As far as I can see, the backend, etc that you are thinking about has been taken over, in India, by IBM and Google. Those are done deals (I think).

But, one never knows.

How Google Is Winning The India Market With Strategic Acquisitions & Investments In India Startups

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby UlanBatori » 03 May 2019 06:42

You guys are such optimists! No wonder India needs intelligence of the non-natural kind.
BTW, Google, sooner rather than later, will get broken up by US anti-trust dakoos. Unless they Enron themselves b4 that. The stormclouds are not just gathering, the winds are rising fast in Oirope against them, and their consorting with cheen junta does not sit well with the 3 or 4 ppl in the Yoo Ess who can think.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 May 2019 15:27

UlanBatori wrote:You guys are such optimists! No wonder India needs intelligence of the non-natural kind.
BTW, Google, sooner rather than later, will get broken up by US anti-trust dakoos. Unless they Enron themselves b4 that. The stormclouds are not just gathering, the winds are rising fast in Oirope against them, and their consorting with cheen junta does not sit well with the 3 or 4 ppl in the Yoo Ess who can think.

I had similar thoughts. I would rather have my data with ambani rather than google. Coz i can take a flight to mumbai and throw a stone at antilla and expect to be hailed as hero, but with Google/Fb. I would be lucky to tell the tale, most likely I will be found "in possession of dangerous assault weapons and had to neutralized immediately by NRA who came to the rescue of NRA hating guys".
In my search, GOI has nt demonstrated any serious concern about the data that these co.s have gatehred from Indian. In a way that's our natural resouce. algos trained over 1000 and multiple millions is a diff game altogether. Travel patterns, food likes all these are being used to export algos to other countries.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby chola » 03 May 2019 16:57

Results of a poorly written goddam program?

I don't know what to say. Overwhelming sadness.

https://leagueofindia.com/education/mind-numbing-tragedy-19-students-in-telangana-commit-suicide-after-class-11th-12th-results/

MIND-NUMBING TRAGEDY: 19 Students in Telangana Commit Suicide After Class 11th & 12th Results


One of the suicides includes the nephew of Rajya Sabha Telugu Desam Party (TDP) MP C M Ramesh

HYDERABAD (Telangana): At least 19 students have killed themselves within a week since Telangana Intermediate Examination results were announced on April 18.

While there were no official figures available, newspapers and channels have reported that 19 students of Intermediate first and second year (Classes 11 and 12 ended their lives since last Thursday.

According to the parents, what has caused this tragedy is an error on the part of the software solutions firm, Globarena Technologies Private Limited, which had been engaged by the intermediate board in September 2017 for development of software to process admissions, pre-examination, post-examination results, including OMR (optical mark recognition) scanning.



https://www.ibtimes.com/scores-students-end-their-lives-after-examination-results-goof-2788676
Scores Of Students End Their Lives After Examination Results Goof-Up
By Shanku Sharma
04/29/19 AT 9:21 AM

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby UlanBatori » 03 May 2019 18:03

ArjunPandit wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:You guys are such optimists! No wonder India needs intelligence of the non-natural kind.
BTW, Google, sooner rather than later, will get broken up by US anti-trust dakoos. Unless they Enron themselves b4 that. The stormclouds are not just gathering, the winds are rising fast in Oirope against them, and their consorting with cheen junta does not sit well with the 3 or 4 ppl in the Yoo Ess who can think.

I had similar thoughts. I would rather have my data with ambani rather than google. Coz i can take a flight to mumbai and throw a stone at antilla and expect to be hailed as hero, but with Google/Fb. I would be lucky to tell the tale, most likely I will be found "in possession of dangerous assault weapons and had to neutralized immediately by NRA who came to the rescue of NRA hating guys".
In my search, GOI has nt demonstrated any serious concern about the data that these co.s have gatehred from Indian. In a way that's our natural resouce. algos trained over 1000 and multiple millions is a diff game altogether. Travel patterns, food likes all these are being used to export algos to other countries.

Deep inside Ulan Bator and (for obvious reasons) hidden from the Khan's goons, is a Shrine To Occasional Moments of Sanity and Honesty. One goes there occasionally. The "debate" about "data" is so far all "LOOK, LOOK! The Foreigners Are Stealing Our Data!"
Do you see (I hope u don't, because it should also be kept quiet) any effort to actually COLLECT useful data and keep that in India for useful purposes? I think RAA does it, CPI(M/L) People's War Group may do it, but who else?
And if the data WERE in fact collected by Ambaniji's minions, do u think it won't reach, say, Dassault Data Vendres de Phrog - for a few Oiros?
Legislation with teeth are needed, and I don't believe there are any credible moves towards that.
So the best bet is to do what my Evil 6th Coujin does on Chehra-Kitab: Lie, Mislead. Look there for the most handsome, well-built 22-year old multi-billionaire movie idol IAS ashpsar residing in Mumbai with Good Guvrmand Jaab and frequent holidays in Maldives and u'll c what I mean.

For instance, it is announced that Google is developing a Flood Predictor using GOI-provided data on river flows, remote sensing in Aap-tickle, MicroWave, Radar, Ground-Penetrating Radar, LIGO (oops!) and acoustics of breaking dams, all to Google, presumably free. There you go: enough to do precise prediction of crop yields looking at least one year ahead, and develop the REAL prediction: commodity market price forecasts for onions, wheat and hashish.

When I mention Village Employment, all I see is "nah nah nah nah yaar! Ask SuSwy onlee!" Why? U don't think better employment for 67% of India's population is an important thing? One should sit scratching one's musharraf? WTH does SuSwy know about this, between his trips to get a few$$ at Hahvahd?

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby UlanBatori » 03 May 2019 18:22

chola wrote:Results of a poorly written goddam program?

I don't know what to say. Overwhelming sadness.
https://leagueofindia.com/education/mind-numbing-tragedy-19-students-in-telangana-commit-suicide-after-class-11th-12th-results/
One of the suicides includes the nephew of Rajya Sabha Telugu Desam Party (TDP) MP C M Ramesh
At least 19 students have killed themselves within a week since Telangana Intermediate Examination results were announced on April 18.
... error on the part of the software solutions firm, Globarena Technologies Private Limited, which had been engaged by the intermediate board in September 2017 for development of software to process admissions, pre-examination, post-examination results, including OMR (optical mark recognition) scanning.


With all respect to the departed, and to the bereaved lawmaker, one must ascribe this too to "Karma". Perhaps with a relative of a lawmaker among the victims there may be some point-application of honest standards, like in the US if a victim had been related to a Tort Lawyer.

One should ask the Five Whys: Why Why Why Why and Why.
1) Dishonesty leading to poor testing of codes
2) Dishonesty in administration of project
3) Dishonest in hiring senior personnel/executives
4) Dishonesty in writing the contract proposal
5) Dishonesty in the bidding process - and in testing whether the delivered product met the original purpose satisfactorily.
Maybe there is some common element at each level?

I hope Indian State Governments are successful in building large airliners in future, carrying hajaar ppl each. Imagine if the software for those were written with similar guvrmand processes.

I cannot imagine how all the many hardworking high-achievers and just honest people from Telangana feel when they see these scams reported. Perhaps they should stand up and lead the demand for change?

********************
Seriously, one should do some introspection/retrospection into how those students felt - and that is the 0th Why: Why did they feel so utterly hopeless?
Some idiot Baboon remarked that "ppl should naat take such extreme steps, errors can be corrected!" Oh YEAH?
WHAT is the guvrmand's record in "correcting errors"? (let's see: Ayodhya verdict out yet? My 6th coujin's application to the Eye-Tee Dept to release the duplicate Tee Dee Ess that they are holding because of an "error" conducted over a whole year of thumb-up-musharraf by Public Sectar Bank employees, resulted in any refund in 4 years? )

How does a student go and PROVE to these oiseules that "Yes, I WAS present at the exam" so
pls correct "Absent" to "present" and FIND MY GODDAMN ANSWER PAPER YOU ****ING CRETINS!!!!

Prompt and fair correction will result? (Great bridge on sale in Ulan Bator, 1 owner, mint condition, pls contact me with bid)

The students were the only ones who were honest - in realizing that there was indeed no hope.

Let's see about the "What" (has happened):

Did the Vice Chancellor resign yet? Hanged?
Did the CEO of said company get arrested yet? Lynched? (but see just doing that might set a small precedent, but won't change centuries of habit)
Has the baboo-in-charge of certifying this product been arrested? Lynched?


Point is that this CULTURE of dishonesty (Anything "goes" anywhere as long as one is not caught and punished) undermines a much older and wider Culture of Hard Work and Honest Achievement of the same people, and of larger desi population. Look at the long Roll of Honor of Education Scams in say the Yoo Ess. See above re: Shrine to Honesty. Isn't it time to demand change? (no, not millions of dollars worth of coins, I mean Change as in Alteration Towards More Honest Standards).
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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 May 2019 18:57

ok returning back to the AI usage in Bharat and not India. My 2 kaudi on that
1. If it's for local things, e.g., those in colleges it might be fine
2. But if it's for a corporate type of set up. A lot of times there are issues with work culture, if manager doesnt sit on head then even corporate offices become the chaupals of ganv so you can imagine. Will corporates be ready to take that risk..you're the best judge for yourself. I''m sure folks in ulanbator would not like to find that the yakherder hired to herd the yaks was hurting them in unmentionable places instead of herding them

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 May 2019 19:06

chola wrote:Results of a poorly written goddam program?

was this program AI?

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby UlanBatori » 03 May 2019 21:42

In the incident that cholaji discussed, the failure was that the students were not informed AS SOON AS a problem was detected. Surely the ppl generating the exam results knew that things were not OK? Don't tell me there was not even a random sampling of papers to verify that things were working as expected? They should have announced that there was a problem, so that at least the students had hope.

These are the kinds of common sense precautions that anyone in charge of new developments has to put in place - and ENFORCE. That last part means don't pay the vendor until and unless the work is done as promised and RESULTS are as promised.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 May 2019 22:33

Based on what i have seen in last two decades, I wont be surprised if there was not even a single test case was run. No test is fool proof. Is Murphy banned in ulanbator? In some jungles , i know of a bhediya had done things that had resulted in US senators, and CEOs or large some large co.s calling our CRO/CEO as he used to play golf with them. Obviously we didnt know senators and the CEOs hang out at club where clothing is a rare commodity. Just like students committing suicide. While the bhediya got into another part of jungle unscathed because of the club thingy and the excuse that AI is too funky, the so called AI was changed by vultures with a plain logistic, which stayed there for almost a decade when it was again changed to a random jungle.
Long story short, stupidity and errors are beyond imagination. Intermediate boundary cases may miss out testing altogether.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 May 2019 22:35

UlanBatori wrote:last part means don't pay the vendor until and unless the work is done as promised and RESULTS are as promised.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
What you are speaking will be the death bell of consulting

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby NRao » 03 May 2019 22:39

UB,

There are so many areas that can provide employment in rural areas, why this fetish to push AI there?

Besides, India is saturated with AI jobs that provide ForEx. And, as yet, I just do not see enough effort to push internal growth in AI. Even if there were a great internal push, I very much doubt it could reverse any unemployment related issues anywhere - leave along rural India. To sum up the last few sentences, I strongly believe Indians are doing leading-edge work in AI, India is not. That has been the case for some 5-7 years now. And, there is more to that story if one dissects the topic even further (AI experts vs. AI support).

The one area where I would like to see India use AI (actually "technology") is in tracking, recovering and reducing black money.

AP,

India has always been a trailer. Sadly. Union Minister Prabhu, a week or so ago, stated that India will use AI to track how the large companies are using data gathered in India. Heh? He went on to say that AI is important, the next tech, ...................... and lost track of the reason he was there (so it seemed to me) - personal data of Indians.

So, please go back to sleep, no use fretting over such things and becoming a BP patient. When the EU and USA have acted India will say our committee on XX has determined that "quote from EU/USA" and be done with it.

JMTs.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 May 2019 22:48

thanks its not that late where I stay, anyways carnivores roam late in night.
I am not sure which Indians you are talking of and where you have met in your highly accelerated learning curve. Happy to learn from you. Speaking of AI in FS, unless of course you have started counting RPA and sql queries as AI, I am yet to see even a single area where Indians are at the forefront in AI in FS. But then what would i know after seeing the happenings in 3 out of top 5 non Chinese banks. So please sir no need to tell me what do i need to do. As far as my data is concerned, I have been using ToR for quite sometime and VPN on my router so apart from Chinese, FBI, CIA and silk route drug lords others wont get much

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby nam » 03 May 2019 23:27



This has a very simple solution. Give a copy of the answers to the students when they finish their exam. They can easily then conclude, how much they marks they might get.

If such a situation as mentioned above occurs, they can challenge the result, based on the answer sheet they have. There is no need to take their lives, because they are not sure what went wrong.

I faced a similar situation where I got less marks than I expected and would have loved to have a copy of my answer sheet to challenge the result.

Moreover, if only someone told these kids that "more" marks does not take you anywhere in your career, once you are inside a company. It might get you a interview, but not necessary a job.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby UlanBatori » 04 May 2019 00:03

ArjunPandit wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:last part means don't pay the vendor until and unless the work is done as promised and RESULTS are as promised.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
What you are speaking will be the death bell of consulting

It IS the death knell for companies that rush in all excited because they have just won a DARPA CONTRACT!! I have watched this happen as the Khan's Baboon just grinned and said:
OK, Milestone 6, 20% done.
with the company diving deeper and deeper into debt and ruin. It so happened that DARPA had Con-Slut - Ants on its side, who ensured that no progress could be made.

Setting up an exam-conducting scheme is not exactly AI. I bet it was the "False Number" algorithm which proved too "secure" for its own users so that they had no clue who was who. Dig deep down and it may turn out that So-and-So's baccha turned out with 99% marks despite being illiterate.
Maybe AI was used to scan through all papers and figure out which one to ASCRIBE to said baccha, with the real author marked "Absent"

Hang them all. As the Hon. Alabama lawmaker said: "Kill them now or kill them later" (in polis 'encounters' I suppose) Better sooner than later"

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby UlanBatori » 04 May 2019 00:45

NRaoji:
The question is not whether there are jobs in AI. Question is whether there is anything about AI jaabs that cannot be done in NaMoGau that has NaMoBijlee, NaMoNet and NaoMoBaink, not 2 mention NaMopakistans. Whether the employer is FedEx or Google or ISI or Huawei is for someone else to decide.
Strictly about the nature of AI jaabs.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby NRao » 04 May 2019 09:14

UB ji,

IMVVVHO, "AI" has a very nebulous definition. Which makes it very, very difficult to account for the number of "jobs". Strictly speaking, again IMHO, there are very few "AI" opening (and that is how it should be IMHO). IF one includes "Data Science" to "AI", then, of course, the numbers increase. IF, as some do, include the support layers, then the numbers grow exponentially. I think you are after these "support layer" openings: Hadoop, network guys, perhaps even data center types (?), etc. About 7 years ago, I suspect to inflate numbers on sales handouts, I had come across web designers (within the "AI" group) being included among "AI" head counts.

IMHO, I just do not see, forget "AI", even "IT" helping rural India.

But, ....................
Last edited by NRao on 04 May 2019 09:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby NRao » 04 May 2019 09:16

Here is one project:

AI-Powered Robots For Border Patrol In India May Be A Reality By Dec 2019

Seems too short a time span to come up with some good solution. But, hope they achieve it.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby NRao » 04 May 2019 09:22

Here is something that seems to be very recent (and interesting):

April 5, 2019 :: Artificial Intelligence in India – Opportunities, Risks, and Future Potential

by Raghav Bharadwaj

Through the course of this research our objective was threefold:

* To understand the state of AI adoption in India
* To determine the opportunities and risks that artificial intelligence poses for Indian industry and society
* To provide the Indian government and tech community leaders with strategic recommendations for using AI to promote prosperity in India

We have broken our analysis down into the following sections below:

1) AI Adoption and Potential in India – an Overview
2) Strengths and Opportunities for India in Artificial Intelligence
3) Weaknesses and Risks for India in Artificial Intelligence
4) Strategic Recommendations for Success in the Indian Artificial Intelligence Ecosystem
4.1) The Big Themes
4.2) Strategic Recommendations – The High-Level View

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby UlanBatori » 05 May 2019 08:22

NRao wrote:UB ji,
IMHO, I just do not see, forget "AI", even "IT" helping rural India.
But, ....................


I have to ask: "Why not?"
Let's see your assessment of the various types of jobs:

IMVVVHO, "AI" has a very nebulous definition. Which makes it very, very difficult to account for the number of "jobs". Strictly speaking, again IMHO, there are very few "AI" opening (and that is how it should be IMHO). IF one includes "Data Science" to "AI", then, of course, the numbers increase. IF, as some do, include the support layers, then the numbers grow exponentially. I think you are after these "support layer" openings: Hadoop, network guys, perhaps even data center types (?), etc. About 7 years ago, I suspect to inflate numbers on sales handouts, I had come across web designers (within the "AI" group) being included among "AI" head counts.


How do present projects work, please? Which aspects require face-to-face interaction that cannot be done over a distance? Surely a lot of Indian IT jobs are done at remote locations such as New Zealand or deep South US (no different from Botswana) with coordination from Bengaluru or H'bad. Why can't the "remote location" be over in a village? Or the coordinators be sitting in the village instead of B'luru?

I have never figured out how Indian IT shops enforce enough discipline to get actual work out of DOOs. Is the HR THAT vicious? They hire CPI(M) goons to go beat up the DOOs?

Maybe hardware maintenance types have to commute to pet their big gizmos. But all the rest?
Again, question is not whether it is AT PRESENT feasible to have workers sitting in villages: most don't have decent cellphone connectivity let along 1GHz broadband 2-way to every village home. But suppose this were actually done? Fiber optic lines to every village, or beamed wireless connectivity. Water. Bainks, restaurants.

Note that under NaMo, bainks have had to go set up branches in lots of remote areas. If bank staff can survive there, why not DOOs?

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 May 2019 22:54

UBji,
I might have touched on it. No one says it can't be done. But it's taking the first step. May be someone needs carnegie's elephant to walk over the bridge as a CBM.
I do see your point and tend to agree with it as another measure to curtain circular inflationary effects in the broader economy driven out of cities. In fact another place it can support is women folks. In my prior experience, some of the women folk find it harder to travel due to family conditions, kids maternity, safety. Having a guard in a cab or a male colleague to accompany her even though his house may be off the route are genuine issues that I have faced. Things are changing rapidly, with video call/conferencing through cell phones and cloud/vpn based systems becoming the norm.
Coming back to it, do we have -chai (iiT) educated folks willing to go back to the pure air with fragrance of cow dung filled villages of rohtak to see pre-fame mallika sehrawat and sapna chaudhary and have bhuttas in evening instead of corn salad?
on a serious note, there are problems related to inertia on both sides
1. Employees would want to be closer to bosses to get good visibility
2. Bosses would want to have employees close to them to have faster TAT,
3. Organizations have inertia, adopting a new model.
But there are cases that I have seen. A sr vp of some Indian consult working from Dehradoon and working at half salary completely remotely. A girl working from diff location altogether after marriage, coz her boss didnt want to lose her (no innuendo, serious talent). Honestly, it is a very exciting. Imagine one can live in a bigger house, have fresh air (means no asthama/allergy/ possibly cancer), no commute time, which can be utilized for office or health: read yog/dhyan and social sergice. And this leads to society for lower inflation in cities, if there's no demand for housing why prices would rise and then why would restaurant prices increase.

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby UlanBatori » 07 May 2019 00:36

Great, thanks. My question then is how to ENABLE that chaiwalla to make that decision. What would it take? OT on the AI thread except for the AI aspects. But for a moment imagine one wall of a room in the village house. Floor to ceiling, it is a video screen, with surround sound or 3D or holographic sound or whatever is the latest in that. You are sitting at your desk/chair. Across the "wall", near enough to touch almost, is the rest of your "team" , maybe on 5 different chairs arranged smartly so that it appears that they are sitting around one table, and your perspective is that of someone also sitting at that large table. Every person is full life-size. Voice comes across perfectly clearly. Communication without any perceptible delay.

NOW what aspect of a modern chai kada is missing? Only thing is that once in a while a brat runs into the picture at one of those sub-screens going
VRRRROOOOOM!
with her toy Galactic Tesla. Or maybe vada/biscoot appears at one segment but you can't reach it.

Of course you cannot physically touch anyone, nor get the fragrance of their garlic-fish meal lunch. Or body odor. Nor get poisoned by the L'Oreal toxic fumes. And if you feel the urge to pick your **** or scratch ur **** u need to remember to get up and walk out of range of the camera and microphone. You have to remember to wear underwear. But you can get yelled-at and humiliated JUST like you were in B'luru.
The above takes a big leap in bandwidth and a smaller leap in video capabilities. But if it brings the look and feel and enables remote project management, why not? What is it worth?

Maybe you share such a room with 20 others on a time-shared scheduling basis, so you need only one facility per village: you stroll there. Many towns (in Ulan Bator for instance) offer these as part of their Enterprise Development Centers. Heck of a lot cheaper than conference room space in a city hi-rise. When there are no such conferences, the village can sell tickets to watch IPL or test krikit (and less advertised, Ice Dancing :eek: ) So it can be a real moneymaker for the village too. "Sustainable".

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 May 2019 03:27

Cisco Telepresence had been doing exactly this for last 10 years at least... Perhaps an led bulb moment. Been used to White light .. So imported 100%...legally of course ...

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby NRao » 07 May 2019 07:53

UB ji,

Sorry, been very biji training my vac to learn the Markov model.

I have to ask: "Why not?"
Let's see your assessment of the various types of jobs:


The issue is, IMVVVHO (and perhaps outside the realm of this thread), would moving "AI" jobs (or for that matter "IT" jobs) to rural areas.

The reason I am skeptical is very simple. I have data for early 2010 (2011-2012). Table 2:

"Agriculture and allied activities": 224.4 Million jobs
"Computer and related": 1.7 Million.

(NOTE: data is distributed by Rural Male, Rural Female, Urban Male and Urban Female> :))

I have done some leg work and found out that, today, there are about 3 million direct jobs in IT in India and around 10 million indirect jobs. So, as I stated, even if we were to port ALL the 3 million jobs to the rural sector it would hardly make a dent. The jobs (total) would go up from 224,4 million (in 2011, taking 2019 IT jobs) to 227.4 million. And, if we were to factor the indirect (which we really cannot, but will to satisfy the herding instinct) from 224.4 to a mear 237.4 million.

That is on the raw employment side of the equation. So, what does it mean on the "GDP" side?

"IT" seems (I am still looking into the numbers here) contribute to - about - 15% of the eco. THAT is significant. But, I am not convinced that distributing jobs across rural areas would retain that number (of 15%). I expect it to dip some. How much? Dunno. But, I am fairly certain it will dip.



Now, ALL that was for "IT". I am collecting data for "AI" and can tell you it is very, very interesting, but not very encouraging - that should be expected).

Later.

Till then, happy herding.


(BTW, I have other issues WRT to moving IT/AI jobs to the rural areas.)
(And, responses in English would be appreciated. Thx.)

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Re: AI/Machine Learning, Bharat and Bhartiya IT Industry

Postby UlanBatori » 07 May 2019 08:17

NRaoji: thx for the data. Your data in fact make the point very clearly. Standard knowledge about desh was that "non-agricultural employment is non-existent in rural India". So even a relative small number of high-value jobs moving to rural would make an immense difference to the economy of rural India, which is 67% of India. With the NaMo Banking initiative and now catastrophic insurance and health insurance and plain payout, disposable income rises exponentially. Consider a small calculation:

A fairly athletic human can generate about 120W of mechanical power for about 1 hour before getting exhausted. So let's say that the toiling Indian agricultural worker puts out 100W for 8 hours: that is 0.8kWh. Convert to electric that is about 0.5kWh. Worth about Rs.5 at the going rate for electricity. You can see why, with little energy available in the villages, disposable income would be dismally low. Now as electric power reaches villages, a little bit of enterprise can make an IMMENSE difference: it can bring more energy, and so on.

So don't stop looking, seeing what was there in 2010. 2020 can be vastly different. And 2030 unimaginably different.

AI is a vast area, and as the rural economy rises, the number of jobs in this field will rise exponentially with rural disposable income. Combined with energy, many tasks will be suitable to machines, and create very productive and lucrative jobs for rural people. One can see the Indian market outstripping any phoren markets for AI in short order.

IOW the CISCO demonstrated model can permeate most of desh. Now consider what desh really is: a huge landmass located in nearly ideal climatic conditions year-round. Throw in energy for air conditioning and it is Vacation Spot Earth. Palm trees, warm breeze, sunshine, absence of Pakis. NO reason to concentrate life in crowded cities (which are preferred in inhospitable regions for survival, piped heat and sweatshop/ smokestack industry).
AI is basically translating thought to productivity. Machines that can make machines that can make machines and so on. What we are even imagining today is so tiny compared to what can be. OK, since I am not drunk I must be sleepy.


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