Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

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arshyam
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by arshyam »

ANI UP ✔ @ANINewsUP

#WATCH Water quality of River Ganga in Kanpur improves as industries are shut due to #Coronaviruslockdown. As per Dr PK Mishra, Professor at Chemical Engineering&Technology, IIT-BHU,Varanasi, there has been 40-50% improvement in quality of water in Ganga

https://twitter.com/i/status/1246640516659400706
nandakumar
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by nandakumar »

arshyam wrote:
ANI UP ✔ @ANINewsUP

#WATCH Water quality of River Ganga in Kanpur improves as industries are shut due to #Coronaviruslockdown. As per Dr PK Mishra, Professor at Chemical Engineering&Technology, IIT-BHU,Varanasi, there has been 40-50% improvement in quality of water in Ganga

https://twitter.com/i/status/1246640516659400706
I thought the leather tannery effluents were linked to sewer sewerage treatment plants and only treated water was being let into ganges.
ashbhee
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by ashbhee »

More than 60 % of petroleum is used by 2 and 3 wheeler's. https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/b ... c/1306662/

Electric 2 and 3 wheedlers are catching up to the cost of petroleum once. This is a low hanging fruit. It will take a long time for electric cars to become affordable for majority of Indians but 2 wheelers are already here.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 535138.cms

It is easy to swap battery for 2 wheeler. Commercial operators like pizza delivery, courier delivery, auto drivers etc can have duplicate battery. While they drive in 1 set of batteries they can have another standby battery back at office / home charging. When they come back to base to pick up more goods to delivery they can swap batteries as well.

Govt. must start creating infrastructure, incentivize private sector to do the same. Setting up charging centers, battery swap centers is chicken and egg case. Not enough electric vehicles to invest in charging infrastructure and no infrastructure for people to buy electric vehicles.

Govt. should provide the necessary nudge to set the ball rolling.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by sudarshan »

My key takeaway from that Yamuna video - when the guy says "the air is clean, no foul smell anymore, the water is clean. There is no need to clean the Yamuna, if people just stop dumping into it, the river will clean itself." So all that expensive technology to clean up the river might not be necessary (note - I said "might"), if the pollution sources are tackled and nullified. This might vary from river to river, of course, depending on flow rates and the nature of the pollution, stagnant water isn't going to clean itself so fast, and if the pollution doesn't flow with the river, then it isn't going to go away so easy either.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by SBajwa »

Report about pollution level across India

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by Rishirishi »

sudarshan wrote:My key takeaway from that Yamuna video - when the guy says "the air is clean, no foul smell anymore, the water is clean. There is no need to clean the Yamuna, if people just stop dumping into it, the river will clean itself." So all that expensive technology to clean up the river might not be necessary (note - I said "might"), if the pollution sources are tackled and nullified. This might vary from river to river, of course, depending on flow rates and the nature of the pollution, stagnant water isn't going to clean itself so fast, and if the pollution doesn't flow with the river, then it isn't going to go away so easy either.
Second that. Even if the rivers, soil and air is not as clean as switzerland, it is still MUCH better then before. It if fully possible to make huge improvements just by making a few sacrifices. The cleaning technology exists, but it may add a relatively small cost to the consumer.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by Vayutuvan »

Super-Porous Material Gives Hydrogen-Powered Vehicles a Boost
APRIL 21, 2020
...
Tech Briefs: How do you envision this kind of material being used to support next-gen clean-energy vehicles?

Prof. Omar Farha: The transportation, storage, and operations of hydrogen-powered vehicles require high pressure compression (i.e., 700 bar), which is both costly and unsafe. They construct the tanks on these vehicles from expensive carbon fiber-reinforced composite vessels. Using adsorbent materials can reduce the compression pressure while maintaining the maximum deliverable capacities of the fuel.
...
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by sudarshan »

Many reports of Himalayas now being seen from Bihar, some claiming that Sagarmatha (Mt. Everest) is seen. Apparently this used to be the case back in the 80's, and that has faded from memory, with many now regarding that as an urban legend. That part of Bihar is near Nepal, with the distance to the Himalayas being reported as 205 km.

https://www.wionews.com/india-news/amid ... ops-297050

I think in addition to numbers on NOx, PM 2.5, SOx concentrations (which are of course quantitative and definitive), these kinds of qualitative metrics of visibility can also be a good gauge for ordinary folks to estimate pollution load. We have many towering peaks which ought to be visible from large swathes of the country.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by SBajwa »

River Yamuna at Vrindivan

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by Rishirishi »

Wow Yamuna this clean, that too in Varanasi . It is fantastic. Pollution can be controlled. Strict western type of environment control could lead to increase of price of consumer goods by 5-10%. But isint it fair that people pay the price to manufacture things in a safe manner? Modhi had a great plan to ban plastic, but they got blinded by industry scaremongering. No much in this world is more important then fresh air and safe water.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by sudarshan »

Rishirishi wrote:Wow Yamuna this clean, that too in Varanasi . It is fantastic. Pollution can be controlled. Strict western type of environment control could lead to increase of price of consumer goods by 5-10%. But isint it fair that people pay the price to manufacture things in a safe manner? Modhi had a great plan to ban plastic, but they got blinded by industry scaremongering. No much in this world is more important then fresh air and safe water.
See if rivers are clean enough for kids to swim in to begin with, then the task of providing piped water to every household becomes that much easier. Less spend on treating the water. Food and drink processing industries spend less on cleaning up water. And so on.

Price of consumer goods increasing (I don't know about 5 to 10% though, is there a reference for this figure?) - there's a saying - "if you think health is expensive, you should try disease." There would be substantial savings in health care costs for 100's of millions from cleaning up the air and water.

Sad to think that it might all go back to the old ways soon after the lockdown is lifted, but a new generation at least got a glimpse of the ideal.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by sudarshan »

Jalandhar to Dhauladhar - ~200 km. North Bihar to Himalayas - ~200 km.

Take the average scattering coefficient for dry air at various visible wavelengths - violet (0.4 mu-m), blue (0.45 mu-m), green (0.5 mu-m), yellow (0.55 mu-m), red (0.7 mu-m) and calculate how much of the incident energy makes it to a distance of 200 km. Rayleigh scattering (which is the relevant phenomenon here) coefficient decreases with the fourth power of wavelength, so there's a very strong (inverse) dependence on wavelength. This is why sunsets and sunrises are red - the blues and greens get totally scattered away over the long path through the atmosphere.

For 200 km distance, assuming dry air, about 37% of red light, 9% of yellow light, 2.7% of green light, 0.4% of blue light, and 0.012% of violet light can be expected to make it through - the rest is simply scattered away. Even a little bit of water will greatly reduce these numbers. This is why one sees hazy objects through fog. Particulates and pollutants will make that a lot worse - which is why one can't see even a few hundred meters through Delhi smog.

The blues and greens from those Himalayan peaks, making it to the eyes of viewers 200 km away, indicates that the air is practically clean of particulates (also quite dry). In the right circumstances, visible distance is a great semi-quantitative estimator of pollution levels.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by SBajwa »

Thank you Sudarshan Sir.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by Amber G. »

Speaking of light scattering.. a question, I often ask to physics students - why far away mountains look blue while sun around sunset is red.
(Blue light has smaller wavelength than red).
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by sudarshan »

^ Replied in the Physics thread, doing "pollution control" on this one :mrgreen:.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by Amber G. »

^^^ Okay, physics related article because of "pollution control" ... Not only we can see Himalayas from Punjab .. Solar output in Delhi is 8% more. From MIT news:.
Covid-19 shutdown led to increased solar power output
- As the air cleared after lockdowns, solar installations in Delhi produced 8 percent more power, study shows.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by Cyrano »

An interesting perspective to consider, from Jean Marc Jancovici - French professor and thinker.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by sudarshan »

From urban planning thread.
Cyrano wrote:Couriously, N°1 spot Hotan is in Xinjiang near Tibet, was called Gosthana in ancient times. Has a large PLAAF airbase. Why does Hotan have so much pollution, so far away from mainland coast mfg hubs?!! Apparently largely due to desert sandstorms that increase greatly suspended particulate matter (PM) in the air.

SPM a major cause of visible pollution in India as well, our semi-arid climate and low green cover kicks up enormous amounts of dust (containing organic & inorganic matter) in and outside cities. This website reports data on PM 2.5 and SPM10 - presumably 2.5 microns and 10 microns thick particles, and also on O3 - Ozone, NO2 - Nitrogen di oxide, SO2 - Sulphur Dioxide and CO - Carbon monoxide. PM may be unsightly, coat everything with dust, cause irritations and asthmas etc, but the other gases are more potent killers over time. These gases mostly come from automobiles and industries.

I couldn't make out if this ranking focuses only on PM2.5 or combines all the above for a composite score, with what weightages assigned to each. The website doesnt specify the data collection and analysis methods. Also its a pity one cant rank cities on other parameters and see.

Not so say India is any less polluted than it really is, but a mere SPM based index is misleading. This website is a bit dubious in its purpose since it doesn't clarify its data sources or its scientific methodology.

Oh wait, its a front for a business that sells air purifiers - thats why it focuses only on PM. With the Swiss cross in the logo triggering subconscious images of beautiful Swiss mountain's clean air and scare you to death with orange and read colours for your cities to sell cheap made in China air purifiers (basically a low power fan + filter).

Clever thinly disguised marketing :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Caveat emptor !!
It's a better fit in this thread, before the moderators do their Ghoulish Bazooka waltz* in the other one.

I think this is the same Hotan/ Khotan of the silk road fame, where Fa Hian and Hsuan Tsang both witnessed the (Buddhist) car festival four hundred years apart from each other. It could be the dust storms. Or it could be like in the northern plains of India, where the wind dies in winter, and all the pollution stays locked in till spring.

As far as I can tell, the metric is just PM 2.5, or maybe a composite PM 2.5 + PM 10. It's very hard to find other metrics such as NOx and SOx in Indian cities. But the switch to BS-VI will greatly help here. BS-VI fuel is ultra-low sulphur. Sulphur clogs catalytic converters, which reduces their efficiency in dealing with other pollutants as well, such as HCs and NOx. Reduce sulphur, and that by itself implements a comprehensive improvement in all pollution levels in auto exhaust. The other side of the coin is the vehicle itself. Burning BS-VI fuel in a BS-IV vehicle does help, but a BS-VI compatible vehicle also implements changes in the catalytic converter, includes a particle filter (for diesel vehicles), and also has (I believe) dashboard monitoring of some (or maybe all) pollutants. The difference isn't much for petrol vehicles, but diesel vehicles should have greatly improved pollution profiles. Plus two- or three-wheelers.

I'm hoping to see more comprehensive reporting on pollution levels (all pollutants) in Indian cities. PM XX is a good start, and the numbers seem to have started falling.
PM may be unsightly, coat everything with dust, cause irritations and asthmas etc, but the other gases are more potent killers over time.
I believe it does a lot worse than that. The smaller particles can clog up your arteries, causing heart attacks and strokes. Maybe also cancers. PM XX is not to be taken lightly.

Plus, this focus on CO2, CO2 all the time, with the obsession on carbon credits, also hides much bigger pollution problems. Forget CO2 is what I say. Focus on plastic waste, SOx, NOx, PM XX, HCs, O3, PAHs, HCN (yes, that's hydrogen cyanide, and yes, it is an issue with auto exhaust), CO (NOT CO2), carcinogens, pesticide runoff.... The list is endless, and all people can think of is CO2!

Are we trying to implement a global thermostat? What I ask is - if tomorrow, the sun goes into a natural warming cycle (it might actually be doing that right now), and as a result, the average temperature on earth is projected to rise a couple of deg. C over a century, would we, or should we be so concerned? It's a natural cycle. It is going to cause all the same issues as the supposedly artificial CO2-induced warming - mass extinctions, glacier melts, droughts, fires, cyclones, water wars, s** deprivation wars, food wars, etc. Should we compensate for such a natural cycle and try to preserve life as it is at the temperature that it currently is, for all eternity? Every year that there is a major volcanic eruption which spews massive quantities of CO2 into the atmosphere, should we ramp down industrial activity to compensate? Just to keep temperatures constant? I honestly don't know, but I do think we should focus on a comprehensive pollution control plan, not just CO2.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_5WVzZcyKY

^^ (Polish Mazurka waltz)
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by Cyrano »

Plus, this focus on CO2, CO2 all the time, with the obsession on carbon credits, also hides much bigger pollution problems. Forget CO2 is what I say. Focus on plastic waste, SOx, NOx, PM XX, HCs, O3, PAHs, HCN (yes, that's hydrogen cyanide, and yes, it is an issue with auto exhaust), CO (NOT CO2), carcinogens, pesticide runoff.... The list is endless, and all people can think of is CO2!
+108 !

Anyone who dares to question the carbon orgy here in Europe will be witch hunted these days. Carbon is an easy bogey to set up for green wokes, and many are playing along because its takes the heat off all the other harmful stuff.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by Cyrano »

Not surprising to see India in the green, and the only one.

The "Green" movements initiated and led by the west stem from the realisation that their exploitation of nature has gone too far and has become unsustainable. That means, any professed change in exploitation patterns is motivated primarily by the need to "somehow" sustain such exploitation for an unspecified future duration which is ultimately untenable. Sustainable development is a fundamentally flawed premise driven by a "nature is there for man" and "man vs nature" worldview, derived from Abrahamic tenets. Thats why they fail to make any meaningful impact despite the shouting from the rooftops.

India's dharmic world view doesn't place man at the centre of nature, or does it confer upon man any divinely ordained right to exploit every other inanimate and animate existence out there to his own benefit. Man is but a part of it and if he oversteps his dharmic limits, there is no running away from the karmic consequences; As a corollary harmonious existence with nature is in itself a source of better living and innate satisfaction, which paves the way for higher goals like self realisation. This fundamental understanding is what tempers any developmental initiative and renders efforts to preserve nature much more sincere, because its seen as an unquestionable duty, and not as a mere constraint to contend with and fulfil on highly malleable best effort basis.

The world has a lot to gain not from doing as India does but seeing as India sees.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by sudarshan »

While we are on the topic of western vs. Dharmic view of prakriti and our role and duties towards that. What's with this indecent hurry that the western world displays in "getting to other planets?" The earth only has another few hundred million to a few billion more years to support life. We need to find other planets and terraform them, else we are lost!!!

"Terraforming" itself is a concept that is exploitative of nature. It seems the western world is missing the good old days, when they could romp into another land, take it over, move the natives off (that's an euphemism of course), and set up their own government. And they want to continue that on other planets.

The Dharmic view is that there is going to be a pralaya, the world is all maya, born of our own material desires, and we are better off overcoming those desires, so that there is no need for a transient material plane any more, to materialize our desires. If, even after the pralaya, there are spirit souls which still harbor desire, then Brahma will oblige one more time. Vishnu will preserve that world for long enough to give us a decent chance at desire-fulfillment, and once that is done, Shiva will step in one more time (and that is an inevitability). No need to planet-hop, terraform, dispose of natives (or indoctrinate them), and all that good stuff.

Right now the energy equations for a relativistic rocket throw up prohibitive numbers, in terms of energy required to move one single human over interstellar distances in some reasonable time frame. And I'm personally hoping it stays that way, for the sake of natives on other planets.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by Vayutuvan »

An interesting calculator here.

https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-g ... references

Does anything like this exist in India? From GoI or other sources?
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by Mort Walker »

GHG are irrelevant in the Indian context. Clean air is the first priority.

In India air quality index in Parts Per Million (PPM) volume or AQI as ug/m^3 is used. Particulate Matter (PM) is the primary concern. Big metros like NCR track AQI and post them on signboards along the highways.

https://www.aqi.in/

In the Indian context of PM is low, then GHG will likely decline too. Just remember that expensive energy relative to incomes will always result in more pollution and GHG as people will switch to burning what they can obtain. The environmental & RES jihadis in the west have shot themselves in the foot. Lower GHG and PM fossil fuel like NG has forced more of the world to use coal.
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by Cyrano »

Hope Sudarshan garu is OK, he hasnt posted since a few months. Does anyone else have some news about him?
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by sudarshan »

^ I appreciate the concern, Cyrano garu. I'm doing fine, just currently on lurk mode :).
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Post by Vayutuvan »

sudarshan wrote:^ I appreciate the concern, Cyrano garu. I'm doing fine, just currently on lurk mode :).
Good to know.
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