Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

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Mort Walker
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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Mort Walker » 08 Sep 2019 01:08

The auto industry is already suffering and then BS-6 only adds to their woes.

ISRO can do fuel cell development. It will useful for the future Indian space station.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby NRao » 08 Sep 2019 01:22

Jul 30 2019 :: 5,645 electric buses sanctioned for 65 cities: Amitabh Kant

Niti Aayog CEO Amitabh Kant on Monday said an inter-ministerial panel has sanctioned 5,645 electric buses for operations in 65 cities, a move seen towards environment-friendly mobility.

Last week, the GST Council headed by finance minister Nirmala Sitharaman decided to cut the tax rates on e-vehicles from 12 per cent to 5 per cent with effect from August 1.

"The inter-ministerial committee for EVs today sanctioned 5,645 electric buses for intracity operations in 65 cities and for intercity operations to 8 state transport undertakings. This will give huge impetus to automobile sector, clean up our cities & drive Make in India," Kant said in a tweet.

The Centre has been taking initiatives to popularise environment-friendly electric vehicles.

In the Union Budget 2019-20, the government proposed additional income tax deduction of Rs 1.5 lakh on the interest paid on loans taken to purchase electric vehicles.

Besides, certain parts of EVs have been exempted from customs duty to further incentivise e-mobility in the country.

The Centre has also approved Rs 10,000 crore under the FAME II scheme, which aims to encourage faster adoption of such vehicles by right incentives and charging infrastructure.

Recently, Kant had said electric vehicles are a sunrise opportunity as India has over 72 per cent two-wheelers.

Niti Aayog has proposed that two-wheelers below the capacity of 150cc sold in the country after March 31, 2025, should be electric ones only.

It also proposed that three-wheelers sold in the country after March 31, 2023 should be electric ones


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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby sudarshan » 16 Sep 2019 06:33

Image

From the below link:

https://theicct.org/blog/staff/zero-emi ... aching-for

Brazilian P-7 is apparently equivalent to EU-5, and P-8 to EU-6. The above link makes a case for fast-tracking adoption of EU-6 equivalent, since just electric bus introduction doesn't reduce pollution fast enough. As seen, a four-year lead in adoption of the EU-6 standard makes a massive difference in NOx pollution.

Trying to get back to this thread.

Stay safe, guys. What with all the exciting political news, Art. 370 removal, etc., SHQ started browsing BRF :eek:. So I was lying low for a while, except to make some irresistible posts (so help me God). SHQ doesn't know my user-id (I think).

It's a sign of the times that SHQ's and GHQ's get interested in BRF. Your *HQ's could find out that you are inveterate jingos, and then you will be invertebrate jingos onlee :(( .

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby sudarshan » 21 Sep 2019 20:24

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/upsh ... lives.html

China makes strides in pollution control. Of course, all imposed by party diktat. But still impressive.

This is one reason why I cheer the BS-VI roll-out advancement, notwithstanding Mort ji's criticism of the same. It's kind of a diktat, but in a more reasonable market-driven approach. A democracy is perfectly capable of tough decisions, if the people respect and back up those decisions. So educating the populace on the dangers of pollution is the key.

Mort ji, with the corporate tax reduction, hopefully the auto industry will see some better times. I don't know about the military preparedness issues you raised. But I agree with you, in that fuel cell research is to be encouraged.

https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1003590/ ... er-emerges

Seems like there are some counter-intuitive trade-offs involved in pollution control. China has had dramatic success in reducing PM 2.5, with Beijing finally seeing clearer skies. But it seems that PM 2.5 retards ozone formation. So now that the PM 2.5 levels are drastically down, ozone levels are rising.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby sudarshan » 21 Sep 2019 21:07

India's electric vehicle drive is shaping up on two fronts: e-buses, and e-(2 & 3) wheelers (autos/rickshaws, scooters, mopeds, etc). This is from back in March:

https://www.wired.com/story/india-sun-m ... tery-swap/

Anybody here actually ride on one of these e-autos? Many of these seem to be running on lead-acid batteries, rather than the newer Li-ion ones.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby arshyam » 21 Sep 2019 21:41

No mention of TN's EV policy announced this week?

Electric vehicles: Tamil Nadu seeks first-mover advantage with new policy - Financial Express

The Tamil Nadu government has announced a host of incentives for electric vehicles (EVs) and component makers in its Electric Vehicle Policy 2019, which was released by chief minister Edappadi K Palaniswami on Monday. The policy underlines the special focus on augmenting charging infrastructure and encouraging start-ups.

Aiming to gain the first-mover advantage and woo big-ticket investments, the state government has announced 100% motor vehicle tax exemption for all EVs, including two-wheelers, cars, auto-rickshaws, buses and light goods carriers till December 2022. Companies which invest a minimum of Rs 50 crore in the EV space and provide direct employment to a minimum of 50 people will get 100% refund of SGST till 2030, provided they make and sell electric vehicles in the state.

The government also plans to offer incubation services in the form of office space, common facilities and mentoring support to encourage start-ups in the EV sector. Tamil Nadu Generation and Distribution Corporation (Tangedco) would set up charging infrastructure through public-private-partnership models. The policy also provides a capital subsidy of up to 15% to EV makers and up to 20% to battery makers on investments made till 2025, a government statement said.

The Tamil Nadu EV policy assumes significance at a time when Hyundai Motor India (which recently unveiled Kona EV) has announced big plans for its Chennai factory.

Ashok Leyland is also making huge investments towards electric bus making in the state. {As I mentioned above, AL is running 2 e-buses in Chennai as part of a trial of their buses} Nissan India, which has a factory near Chennai, is also looking at introducing its global EV, Leaf, in India. Renault India, which also has a base in Chennai, has hinted at going for EVs by 2022. Players such as Ford, BMW and Daimler are also keen on introducing EVs in India.


Welcoming the lead taken by Tamil Nadu in announcing an EV policy, Society of Manufacturers of Electric Vehicles (SMEV) director-general Sohinder Gill said, “It is a great move by the state to encourage manufacturers to set up plants while motivating citizens to adopt a cleaner mode of transport. The policy offers multiple non-fiscal support that would certainly help the industry move forward. However, we anticipated some fiscal incentives that are the need of the hour to boost the sale of personal vehicles, which is currently minimal.”

The TN policy note says investments in EV projects in government industrial parks would get a 20% subsidy on land price, and those which choose the state’s southern parts/region (industrially backward areas now) would get a subsidy of up to 50%. These incentives would be valid till 2022. A 100% exemption on land registration fee and a 100% exemption on electricity tax have also been offered. The state government would provide funds to procure and deploy electric vehicles across its departments. An open permit system for three-wheeler EVs would also be implemented, the policy note says.


Tamil Nadu EV policy seeks to attract Rs 50,000 cr, create 150,000 jobs - BS

The Tamil Nadu government hopes to attract investments worth Rs 50,000 crore in the electric vehicle space, while establishing the state as a hub for these vehicles by developing an EV ecosystem. The state, which unveiled a new EV policy today, also seeks to create 150,000 new jobs.

Motor vehicle registrations in Tamil Nadu have risen 12.4 per cent a year to over 27.7 million in 2019 from 321,000 in 1981. EV penetration at the end of phase-I of FAME remained low. According to the policy document released by Chief Minister K Palaniswami, a dedicated strategy is needed to address EV prices, create public charging infrastructure and spur investments, in order to promote adoption of such vehicles.

The government will also create an EV Venture Capital Fund to offer financial support to start-ups in this space, in order to enable them to scale up their businesses.

The objective is to create robust EV infrastructure, such as adequate power supply and network of charging points with favourable power tariff, to make Tamil Nadu the preferred destination for EV and component manufacturing units.

Under a special manufacturing package, the government will offer a 100 per cent reimbursement of State Goods and Services Tax (SGST) on sale of EVs made, sold and registered within Tamil Nadu. This facility will be available till December 2030. A capital subsidy of 15 per cent for investments spread over 10 years will be provided till December 2025 for intermediate products in EV and charging infrastructure, in cases where SGST reimbursement does not apply. Industries operating in this space will also be completely exempt from electricity tax till December 2025.

The state has also announced subsidies on the sale or lease of land manufacturing EVs and creating charging infrastructure, apart from an incentive for creating jobs in the sector.

The government will develop exclusive EV parks in major auto manufacturing hubs to create a vendor ecosystem and promote logistics parks and free trade warehousing zones for better inventory management. Special incentives will be provided for MSMEs.

The State has set itself a target to have all auto rickshaws, taxis and app-based transport operators and aggregators converted to electric within 10 years in six major cities -- Chennai, Coimbatore, Trichy, Madurai, Salem and Tirunelveli.

Electric two-wheelers will be granted complete road tax exemption till December 2022, along with a waiver on registration charges, while private cars will get a waiver on registration charges and 50-100 per cent road tax exemption till 2022. Waiver of registration tax and other incentives were also announced for other categories.

Tamil Nadu's State Transport Undertakings (STUs), which ply some 21,000 buses, would strive to replace around 5 per cent of their existing vehicles with EVs every year and around 1,000 EV buses may be introduced every year. Buses are expected to be charged at the Depots using 3-Phase electric connection, supported by small top up charging at smaller stations.

The State will invest in charging stations with active participation from public sector units such as the State discom TANGEDCO, and from private players, for whom appropriate capital subsidy will be available. The Government will undertake to set up 3x3 Grid charging stations in six major cities, with one for every stretch of 25 km on both sides of National and State Highways. Charging points will be provided in government office parking lots as well.

The policy also dwells on Public Private Partnership models. Tariff for the supply of electricity to Public Charging Stations (PCS) will be determined by the state electricity regulatory commission and it will be not more than the 15 per cent above the average cost of supply. Renewable energy will be supplied in priority for charging stations, and will come at zero connection cost.

The state has also formed a high-level steering committee to monitor the implementation of policy targets. Recycle and reuse of used batteries and disposal the rejected batteries are also part of the policy.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby arshyam » 21 Sep 2019 21:42

This article has a better summary:

Tamil Nadu drafts policy to be India’s ‘EV hub’, aims to attract Rs 50,000 crore investment Industry - by Sumantra B Barooah 16 Sep 2019, AutoCar Pro

Tamil Nadu (TN), a major automotive manufacturing hub also known as the 'Detroit of the East', now wants to also become the 'EV hub of India'. The state with the second largest vehicle population in the country has finalised its policy to promote electric mobility in the state. The TN government aims to build a comprehensive EV ecosystem for which it hopes to attract a cumulative investment of Rs. 50,000 crore. Around 150,000 new jobs are expected to be created in the new ecosystem. The policy, released today, will come into effect from the date of the government order with a validity of 'ten years or till a new policy is announced'.

The broad objectives of the EV policy are:
- Create robust infrastructure for electric vehicles including adequate power supply and network of charging points with favourable power tariff.
- Promote EV innovation for automotive and shared mobility by providing the ecosystem and infrastructure to make Tamil Nadu, the EV hub of India.
- Create a pool of skilled workforce for the EV industry through the technical institutions available in the State and create new jobs in the EV industry.
- Make Tamil Nadu the preferred destination for EVs and component manufacturing units including battery and charging infrastructure.
- Create a conducive environment for industry and research institutions to focus on cutting edge research in EV technologies and reap the benefit from the outcome.
- Recycle and reuse used batteries and dispose the rejected batteries in an environment friendly manner to avoid pollution.

Some of the key incentives under TN's EV Policy to facilitate in building a mass scale EV market are:

Incentives for purchase of electric two-wheelers
- 100 percent road tax exemption will be provided till 30th December, 2022.
- Waiver on registration charges/fees will be done as per Government of India's notification.

Incentives for three-seater auto-rickshaws
An open permit system will apply to approved e-auto permits to be issued. The list of approved e-autos will be notified by the Department of Transport. The following further incentives will be offered:
- Auto Rickshaw permit fees will be waived for e-autos till 30th December, 2022.
- 100 percent road tax exemption for e-autos till 30th December, 2022.
- Waiver on registration charges/fees will be done as per Government of India's notification.

Incentives for transport vehicles such as taxi, tourist cars, etc.
- Taxi permit fees will be waived for electric transport vehicles till 30th December, 2022.
- 100 percent road tax exemption for all electric transport vehicles till 30the December, 2022.
- Waiver on registration charges/ fees will be done as per government of India's notification.
- STUs will be provided with subsidy to enable purchase of EV buses.

Incentives for LCVs (including three-wheelers)
- There will be no requirement of permit for the three-wheeler goods, e-carriers as well as electric light goods carriers.
- 100 percent road tax exemption for all e-carriers registered till 30th December, 2022.
- Waiver on registration charges/fees will be done as per Government of India's notification.

Incentives for private cars
- Road tax exemption will be enhanced from 50 percent to 100 percent till 30th December, 2022.
- Private car owners shall be encouraged to switch over to electric cars.
- Waiver on registration charges/fees will be done as per Government of India's notification.

Incentives and support for charging stations
- Adequate policy support will be provided for the development of charging infrastructure in cities and other places.
- The State will invest in setting up charging stations, with the active participation of public sector units including TANGEDCO and private players.
- The government will develop schemes with appropriate capital subsidy to enable private operators to set up public charging stations.
- Provision for charging stations will be made in commercial buildings such as hotels, shopping malls, cinema halls, apartments, etc.
- The government will take effort to set up 3*3 Grid charging stations in Chennai, Coimbatore, Trichy, Madurai, Salem and Tirunelveli.
- One charging station will be set up at 25 km intervals on both sides of NHAI and State Highways.
- TANGEDCO will invest in setting up both slow and fast charging networks in government buildings and other public places.
- TANGEDCO will setup the charging infrastructure on its own or through private operators using appropriate public private partnership models.
- Charging points will be provided in the government office parking lots in Chennai, Coimbatore, Madurai, Trichy, Salem, Tirunelveli and other places based on the requirements.

Tamil Nadu has a population of nearly 2.8 crore vehicles with internal combustion engines. The state also has the highest rate of urbanisation in the country with almost half its population living in urban areas. The state didn't see much EV adoption at the end of FAME I which ended on March 31, 2019. Under Vision 2023, the TN government envisages the state to be 'the most prosperous and progressive' state where its people enjoy all the basic services of a modern society and 'live in harmonious engagement with the environment'. The policy document states that the EV policy is in line with the regime's stated objective.

Captains of industry have already responded to Tamil Nadu's EV Policy.

Sohinder Singh Gill, Director General, SMEV: "We welcome the announcement of Tamil Nadu EV policy 2019 by the state government. It is indeed a great move by the state to encourage manufacturers to set up plants while motivating citizens to adopt a cleaner mode of transportation. The policy offers multiple non-fiscal support that would certainly help the industry to move forward. However, we anticipated some fiscal incentives that are the need of the hour to boost the sale of personal vehicles, which is currently minimal."

Mahesh Babu, CEO, Mahindra Electric: "We welcome the draft policy by Tamil Nadu which is both progressive and compehensive in nature. It outlines clear adoption strategies for last mile connectivity through three-wheelers and shared mobility by four-wheelers. We appreciate the demand side incentives provided by the government like road tax exemption, zero permit fees, registration charges waiver for three-wheelers. We are looking forward to the implementation of this draft policy soon. Mahindra is ready with products like the Treo for helping the state achieve its EV adoption goal."

Tarun Mehta, CEO and co-founder, Ather Energy: "Tamil Nadu's EV policy has taken into account the entire EV ecosystem and is extremely comprehensive. Removing the Road tax for end consumers will have a positive impact on the adoption rate of EVs in the state. And refunding the SGST (State GST) along with the plethora of other OEM focused incentives make the state an attractive hub for manufacturing. The state has taken a long term approach to building R&D and skilled labour by also considering adding EV design and build to the curriculum in the state's technical colleges. This creates a pipeline of talent for an industry that is currently managing with a dearth of talent that has hands on experience with EVs."

"The only aspect that will need more support is the charging infrastructure. As the policy mentions it is a critical part of the ecosystem and needs to be addressed. Fiscal support in the form of subsidies or investments in the sector would go a long way to make Tamil Nadu a hub for EVs," added Mehta.

Nagesh Basavanhalli, MD and CEO, Greaves Cotton: “We welcome The Tamil Nadu state government’s policy on electric vehicles and it is a great initiative. With this, we inch a step closer to the dream of pollution-free, affordable EV mobility in the last mile. While this accelerates the adoption of electric vehicles, this will also open up a good avenue for the e-commerce and shared mobility segment.”

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Mort Walker » 21 Sep 2019 22:05

sudarshan wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/upshot/china-pollution-environment-longer-lives.html

China makes strides in pollution control. Of course, all imposed by party diktat. But still impressive.

This is one reason why I cheer the BS-VI roll-out advancement, notwithstanding Mort ji's criticism of the same. It's kind of a diktat, but in a more reasonable market-driven approach. A democracy is perfectly capable of tough decisions, if the people respect and back up those decisions. So educating the populace on the dangers of pollution is the key.

Mort ji, with the corporate tax reduction, hopefully the auto industry will see some better times. I don't know about the military preparedness issues you raised. But I agree with you, in that fuel cell research is to be encouraged.

https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1003590/ ... er-emerges

Seems like there are some counter-intuitive trade-offs involved in pollution control. China has had dramatic success in reducing PM 2.5, with Beijing finally seeing clearer skies. But it seems that PM 2.5 retards ozone formation. So now that the PM 2.5 levels are drastically down, ozone levels are rising.


I would be cautious of what the failing NYT has to say. China's pollution control can be attributed to rising per capita incomes and they way corporates and individuals use energy - which are less related to laws and standards imposed. I'm sceptical of various reports from China.

BS-VI decision was not thought out and rather by SC mandate. GoI just kicked the can to someone else to make a decision. Back in the summer, the Indian auto industry asked the petroleum refineries to make BS-VI fuel available 45 days before the April 2020 deadline. BS-IV to VI makes particulate emissions of 25 mg/km to 5 mg/km for a diesel vehicle. Putting the wrong fuel in a BS-VI certified vehicle will damage it. As we get closer to April, my guess is even the government will ask for a little bit more time. As a consumer, I would tell people not buy a BS-VI certified vehicle until late next year at the earliest.

If people want to live with high unemployment and loss of manufacturing, then go for it.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby sudarshan » 21 Sep 2019 23:02

Supratik wrote:Indian start-up develops first Indian all-electric heavy duty truck.

https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/c ... n/1711037/


X-post from Indian Manufacturing Sector thread.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Vayutuvan » 21 Sep 2019 23:35

Mort Walker wrote:
sudarshan wrote:This is one reason why I cheer the BS-VI roll-out advancement, notwithstanding Mort ji's criticism of the same.

If people want to live with high unemployment and loss of manufacturing, then go for it.


I lived in India for a year back in 1999-2000. Three metros - Pune, Hyderabad, Mumbai - had terrible, I mean "soot on the face" terrible, air quality. Pune was the worst.

I had been visiting every 3 years since then. The situation has improved dramatically in all the above cities. One contributing factor is that MH mandated that all autorickshaws need to convert to CNG. Hyderabad is mixed as there is no mandate in TS.

There is no question that we need to move to better emission standards.

The question is whether going to BS-VI is too stringent.

Let me try and dig out the stats from 2000 onwards of people suffering from/dying of COPD and other pulmonary disorders.

There could be a decreasing marginal rate in that curve. We have to live with the deaths as the price of development and more jobs in manufacturing.

EV technology also does not come without its own problems.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby sudarshan » 22 Sep 2019 03:46

Supratik wrote:How Indian railways is trying to get rid of plastic use.

https://youtu.be/BE5kQMfPebM


X-post from Indian Railways thread. Somebody make this Supratik follow thread discipline wonlee :((.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Sep 2019 07:22

Vayutuvan wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:If people want to live with high unemployment and loss of manufacturing, then go for it.


I lived in India for a year back in 1999-2000. Three metros - Pune, Hyderabad, Mumbai - had terrible, I mean "soot on the face" terrible, air quality. Pune was the worst.

I had been visiting every 3 years since then. The situation has improved dramatically in all the above cities. One contributing factor is that MH mandated that all autorickshaws need to convert to CNG. Hyderabad is mixed as there is no mandate in TS.

There is no question that we need to move to better emission standards.

The question is whether going to BS-VI is too stringent.

Let me try and dig out the stats from 2000 onwards of people suffering from/dying of COPD and other pulmonary disorders.

There could be a decreasing marginal rate in that curve. We have to live with the deaths as the price of development and more jobs in manufacturing.

EV technology also does not come without its own problems.


As I posted earlier, BS-IV allows 25 mg/km of particulate emissions. BS-VI allows 5 mg/km. This is a reduction of 5 times and won't be without significant technical problems by the refiners and auto manufacturers both. No one is saying not going to BS-VI, but this is too fast. I suspect GoI is doing this more for international accolades as opposed to strictly improving air quality, but perhaps I'm more cynical. A more reasonable approach would be somewhere in between before going to BS-VI. Below is an image of carbon monoxide (CO) and Nitrogen Oxide(NOx), it does not show the particulate emission standards.

Image

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby sudarshan » 22 Sep 2019 08:06

Mort - where did you get that figure from (link) just for reference?

This link explains the BS-VI issues rather well:

https://www.embitel.com/blog/embedded-b ... lectronics

The fuel standard is for ultra-low sulphur, down to 10 ppm sulphur. This ensures that catalytic converters aren't clogged up prematurely.

NOx is reduced using exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) and scrubbers. There is also a filter on diesel vehicles to reduce particulate matter. So the manufacturing side has to build in these components (together with the mandatory monitoring devices). Granted, this is not a trivial change.

The big mistake was made back in ~2000, when diesel cars were allowed to proliferate. Indian cities are paying for that big time right now. CNG had started bringing down pollution, but diesel cars negated all those gains.

Now with BS-VI, petrol vehicles are not expected to become much cleaner than they already are. The big pollution gains (70% on NOx, 80% on particulates, etc.) are expected to be on the diesel vehicle side.

I don't know, we can keep arguing about whether the BS-VI change-over is too fast, but the decision has been made, it seems like it will be carried through, manufacturers have mostly adjusted already. Consumers are a different story, maybe the price is the current put-off, maybe consumers don't want to buy now and be stuck with BS-IV lemons which will need extensive modifications.

Eight months away from the change-over deadline, could you spell out what you want GOI to do? Do you want a reversal of the BS-VI decision and an announcement of BS-V instead? If so, how are manufacturers to adapt to that? Will that put off BS-V implementation, and should India stick with BS-IV in the meantime? Please also propose your ideas on what should be done at this point of time, rather than just saying "it is/ was the wrong decision."

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Sep 2019 18:37

sudarshan wrote:Mort - where did you get that figure from (link) just for reference?

This link explains the BS-VI issues rather well:

https://www.embitel.com/blog/embedded-b ... lectronics

The fuel standard is for ultra-low sulphur, down to 10 ppm sulphur. This ensures that catalytic converters aren't clogged up prematurely.

NOx is reduced using exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) and scrubbers. There is also a filter on diesel vehicles to reduce particulate matter. So the manufacturing side has to build in these components (together with the mandatory monitoring devices). Granted, this is not a trivial change.

The big mistake was made back in ~2000, when diesel cars were allowed to proliferate. Indian cities are paying for that big time right now. CNG had started bringing down pollution, but diesel cars negated all those gains.

Now with BS-VI, petrol vehicles are not expected to become much cleaner than they already are. The big pollution gains (70% on NOx, 80% on particulates, etc.) are expected to be on the diesel vehicle side.

I don't know, we can keep arguing about whether the BS-VI change-over is too fast, but the decision has been made, it seems like it will be carried through, manufacturers have mostly adjusted already. Consumers are a different story, maybe the price is the current put-off, maybe consumers don't want to buy now and be stuck with BS-IV lemons which will need extensive modifications (read the concerns about fuel grade in your link ).

Eight months away from the change-over deadline, could you spell out what you want GOI to do? Do you want a reversal of the BS-VI decision and an announcement of BS-V instead? If so, how are manufacturers to adapt to that? Will that put off BS-V implementation, and should India stick with BS-IV in the meantime? Please also propose your ideas on what should be done at this point of time, rather than just saying "it is/ was the wrong decision."


It came from Wiki-pedia. Thank you for the link.

In the 2000s diesel cars made by Tata were becoming popular, what you forget is how much people in India pay for fuel vs. income. Today diesel is Rs. 70/liter and petrol Rs. 80/liter. This is $3.78-$4.32/gallon equivalent. The 2000s was the period where auto and auto part manufacturing took off big time in India. Not just for domestic use, but for export too. In the last two decades it has employed over twice the number of people than the IT industry, but GDP contribution is similar. The decision to promote diesel cars was not really one by the government, but economics dictated they be made. How about we place a surcharge or export tax on the IT industry because it makes just as much sense?

Read your own article. BS-VI was promoted to bring India into compliance with its carbon footprint obligations. Conflating pollution and BS-VI is a way of selling it to the public and industry. BS-V implementation even by 2020, a year ahead of planned would have been good enough since Tata and Mahindra were exporting compliant vehicles.

In October 2016, India signed the Conference of Protocol also known as the Paris Climate Agreement. Being a signatory to the agreement, India is obligated to bring down the carbon footprint by 33-55% from the levels recorded in 2005 in the next 12 years.

This warranted the need for a stricter norm that could reduce the emissions considerably and put India on track to meet the Paris agreement goals.

Ideally, BS V would have been rolled out by 2021 and BS VI in 2024 but leapfrog to Bharat Stage VI norms by 2020 had to be planned because of the carbon footprint obligations.


I'm willing to wager that come Jan-Feb, GoI will reach some sort of compromise to slow implementation of BS-VI vehicles. The fuel may come out, but vehicle production will take longer, but parts will have to be imported for manufacture in India. The clock on the auto and auto parts industry has been set back over a decade. Vehicle sales will slow due to cost and those employed indirectly will suffer the most consequences, particularly in 2nd tier cities.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby sudarshan » 22 Sep 2019 20:13

As far as I can tell, BS-VI has nothing to do with CO2. There are no measures defined in the protocol for CO2 reduction or sequestering. I occasionally read articles which throw in "CO2 reduction" as one of the aims of Euro-6 or BS-VI, but, a. short of burning (much) less fuel in the engine to begin with, or b. drastically increasing energy-conversion efficiency, or c. sequestering vast quantities of carbon at the exhaust, I fail to see how BS-VI or Euro-6 would achieve this goal (which I don't even think is a worthy goal to begin with - but that is another story). I suspect this might be dork media in action. But I'm willing to be corrected on this.

As for the article which I linked, it mentions CO2 as the driving force for BS-VI implementation, but the rest of the article talks of PM-XX, NOx, CO, etc. No further mention of CO2. Could be dork media again, or somebody confused CO with CO2? Given the constant screaming in media about CO2 being the root of all evil, it might be a natural error.

So again my question - at this stage, what do you recommend that GOI must do? This is not a challenge. I think in your post you were suggesting that GOI should announce roll back of BS-VI and go with BS-V by 2020 - is this your recommendation?

How about we place a surcharge or export tax on the IT industry because it makes just as much sense?


Why, because the IT industry directly degrades air, water, and food quality, causes lung diseases and other debilitating ailments, and directly and visibly impacts health, quality of life, and life expectancy (for the entire population, not just those in the industry)?

From wiki on BS-VI:

CO2 emission
India's auto sector accounts for about 18% of the total CO2 emissions in the country. Relative CO2 emissions from transport have risen rapidly in recent years, but like the EU, currently there are no standards for CO2 emission limits for pollution from vehicles.

Obligatory labelling
There is also no provision to make the CO2 emissions labelling mandatory on cars in the country. A system exists in the EU to ensure that information relating to the fuel economy and CO2 emissions of new passenger cars offered for sale or lease in the Community is made available to consumers to enable consumers to make an informed choice.


From wiki on Euro-6:

CO2 emissions
See also: Climate change
Within the European Union, road transport is responsible for about 20% of all CO2 emissions, with passenger cars and vans contributing about 15%.[40][41]

The target fixed at Kyoto Protocol was an 8% reduction of emissions in all sectors of the economy compared to 1990 levels by 2008–12.

Relative CO2 emissions from transport have risen rapidly in recent years, from 21% of the total in 1990 to 28% in 2004,[40][42][43] but currently there are no standards for limits on CO2 emissions from vehicles.

EU transport emissions of CO2 currently account for about 3.5% of total global CO2 emissions.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Sep 2019 21:11

The goal in India is to reduce particulate emissions, CO and NOx reduction would nice, but is less a priority right now. Therefore full implementation of BS-VI is unnecessary at this time.

The auto industry employs over 35 million people directly and indirectly. It also help precision manufacturing. Claiming it degrades quality of life is nonsense and lacks understanding. The transportation industry is based on oil and will be for the next 20-30 years. Imposing unfair regulations on a huge GDP contributor and employment industry is essentially a tax on them and makes as much sense as placing a tax or surcharge on the export of the IT industry.

Reducing emissions is required, but when you dictate standards without understanding the impact on a growing economy is carelessness. Doing it just because Europe is doing it makes no sense.

BS-VI by 2024 is reasonable as originally planned. Implementing BS-V by 2020 instead of 2021 is also reasonable.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Rishirishi » 24 Sep 2019 04:16

Mort Walker wrote:The goal in India is to reduce particulate emissions, CO and NOx reduction would nice, but is less a priority right now. Therefore full implementation of BS-VI is unnecessary at this time.

The auto industry employs over 35 million people directly and indirectly. It also help precision manufacturing. Claiming it degrades quality of life is nonsense and lacks understanding. The transportation industry is based on oil and will be for the next 20-30 years. Imposing unfair regulations on a huge GDP contributor and employment industry is essentially a tax on them and makes as much sense as placing a tax or surcharge on the export of the IT industry.

Reducing emissions is required, but when you dictate standards without understanding the impact on a growing economy is carelessness. Doing it just because Europe is doing it makes no sense.

BS-VI by 2024 is reasonable as originally planned. Implementing BS-V by 2020 instead of 2021 is also reasonable.


I think battery car will be cheaper already within 2-3 years. Look it up.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby sudarshan » 25 Sep 2019 06:27

Mort ji, arguing here about the rights or wrongs of the BS-VI decision is useless. This govt. has showed a serious tendency to listen to and learn from criticism. If you feel so strongly about the misguidedness of the BS-VI decision, please give the govt. some feedback. If they see the merit in your arguments and change course, then good for you.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Mort Walker » 25 Sep 2019 09:10

sudharshan,

The GoI will most likely give exceptions and waivers to some vehicle manufacturers very quietly to extend the time. Just wait for it. What BS-VI is for diesel fuel is to reduce engine efficiency so much so that diesel will no longer be an economically viable fuel. Why not just ban diesel and your problem is solved? Why not follow that eco-nut Greta Thunberg and ban all petrol and diesel for transportation? In India we can switch to bullock cart for moving goods and mass transportation and meet the fairy tale Paris accord agreement well ahead of schedule.

1 Kg diesel = 12 KW-Hr. At 33% efficiency, this is 4 KW-Hr/kg.
1 Kg Li-Ion battery = 0.3 KW-Hr. In 3-5 years it will be 0.5 KW-Hr/kg.

Over 60% of India's power comes from coal. It's better to work out the math and figure out that switching to an all battery system may only shift the pollution problem somewhere else in India. Then there is the use of massive amounts of metals and rare earths to make batteries within India. As I said before, the future of transportation is electric, but not battery systems that we have today.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby hgupta » 28 Sep 2019 05:04

Sudharshan,

Check this article out. https://t.co/7lFBHCAQEL?amp=1

This is what I am talking about. This is the kind of research and development where India can leverage its strengths and assets to establish a firm foothold in the energy storage industry. India has lots of iron ores and set up massive infrastructure such as gigafactories or terafactories and mass produce these kind of batteries. It means that India doesn't have to shell out huge forex reserves in order to secure energy supplies.

In addition, a careful multi-prong strategy where India develop wind, solar, geothermal, or a combo of two or three, and nuclear power plants combined with an overhaul of the electricity grid where standby batteries are used as nodes in a distribution system in order to smooth out any fluctuating transmission can bring power 24/7 to all corners of India. The way the grid system is developed, it is primarily designed for the likes of power plants that rely on fossil fuels. In order to maximize the advantages of renewable energy, we need to change the distribution grid to a grid that plays to the strength of wind, solar, geothermal, and nuclear. If India can design and develop a grid that can incorporate large scale batteries that function as nodes in distribution grid smoothing and flattening out transmission peaks, India will avoid the problems that come with fossil fuel based power plants and infrastructure. We would be basically leapfrogging over and getting closed to the head of the pack.

If we can pull this off, it means that other power hungry consumption industries can be further developed and India can then leverage its pool of labor and materials such as building a nationwide system of water & waste management system, recycling plants that can be power hungry or even carbon capture plants. We can also build large scale data centers which consume a lot of powers and host a lot of technology startups. India could break the ceiling/chicken egg situation and get ahead.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Mort Walker » 28 Sep 2019 20:26

hgupta wrote:Sudharshan,

Check this article out. https://t.co/7lFBHCAQEL?amp=1

This is what I am talking about. This is the kind of research and development where India can leverage its strengths and assets to establish a firm foothold in the energy storage industry. India has lots of iron ores and set up massive infrastructure such as gigafactories or terafactories and mass produce these kind of batteries. It means that India doesn't have to shell out huge forex reserves in order to secure energy supplies.

In addition, a careful multi-prong strategy where India develop wind, solar, geothermal, or a combo of two or three, and nuclear power plants combined with an overhaul of the electricity grid where standby batteries are used as nodes in a distribution system in order to smooth out any fluctuating transmission can bring power 24/7 to all corners of India. The way the grid system is developed, it is primarily designed for the likes of power plants that rely on fossil fuels. In order to maximize the advantages of renewable energy, we need to change the distribution grid to a grid that plays to the strength of wind, solar, geothermal, and nuclear. If India can design and develop a grid that can incorporate large scale batteries that function as nodes in distribution grid smoothing and flattening out transmission peaks, India will avoid the problems that come with fossil fuel based power plants and infrastructure. We would be basically leapfrogging over and getting closed to the head of the pack.

If we can pull this off, it means that other power hungry consumption industries can be further developed and India can then leverage its pool of labor and materials such as building a nationwide system of water & waste management system, recycling plants that can be power hungry or even carbon capture plants. We can also build large scale data centers which consume a lot of powers and host a lot of technology startups. India could break the ceiling/chicken egg situation and get ahead.


hguptaji,

What you've linked to is a battery that has 60% the energy density of Li-Ion. At present only 0.220 KW-Hr/kg. As sudharshanji has mentioned, aluminum-air has a higher density than Li-Ion, but is still barely out of the labs and has a decade to mature. The cost is still way to high for aluminum-air. IMHO, a better solution will be to work on fuel cell technology where the existing infrastructure of CNG can be used to crack it.

The graph below tells us the real story about energy density of different materials. Note the Li-Ion and petroleum disparity.
Image

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby sudarshan » 28 Sep 2019 22:52

hgupta wrote:Sudharshan,

Check this article out. https://t.co/7lFBHCAQEL?amp=1

....


Thanks, nice article.

It says iron-ion has a higher redox potential than lithium-ion, which means - the theoretical capacity is higher. But for now, the achieved capacity is way lower than the theoretical.

Advantages would be:

  • Iron being cheap and much easier to recycle than lithium
  • Iron being abundant in India, vs. being dependent on Chile or Bolivia for lithium
  • It's a secondary battery technology (i.e., rechargeable)

Disadvantages would be:

  • Iron being so dense, that per-weight capacity is expected to be way lower
  • Not yet mature, needs way more development at this stage to boost number of cycles and storage capacity

Some confusing elements in the article:

Developed by IIT-Madras, the iron-ion battery are much more cost-effective, and features slightly better storage capacity and stability compared to the traditional lithium-ion batteries.


And then:

At the present stage, the energy density of the battery is also only able to reach around 220 Wh/kilo, which is only around 55-60 per cent of the 350 Wh/kilo of energy density for lithium-ion battery.


So which is it - is it better storage capacity, or less storage capacity? I guess the first quoted part above talks about volumetric, while the second one talks about per weight?

Another amazing thing about this made-in India batteries is the power retention after multiple charge cycles. The findings of the research team have shown that iron-ion battery is only capable of 150 cycles of charging and discharging for the time being.


The two sentences above are contradictory. Couldn't figure that out. But the achievable cycles would need to be boosted by a factor of 10, and capacity by a factor of 2, for this to be viable.

Also, is this really the first iron-ion battery in the world? I thought others have developed these things before.

***---***

EDIT: Oh I see, this is an iron-ion battery, not the iron-air batteries I was reading about before. I guess the difference is that the iron-ion battery needs both a cathode and anode, while the iron-air battery uses ambient air itself as the oxidizer. That's why it's the "world's first iron-ion battery" I guess.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Gyan » 29 Sep 2019 01:43

There are international reports about experiments on Sodium, Sulfur, Aluminium batteries. These materials are also in abundant supply in India

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Vayutuvan » 29 Sep 2019 02:07

Mort Walker wrote:The graph below tells us the real story about energy density of different materials. Note the Li-Ion and petroleum disparity.
[img...]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Energy_Density.PNG[/img]

Nice graph. Methane at 200 bar (2900-3600 psi or 20-25 MPa) (1 bar = 0.1 MPa) is much better than Li-Ion already. So directly burn Biogas (Methane obtained from Biomass/agricultural waste/urban solid waste) in the IC.

Why convert to electricity and lose efficiency in distribution?

Biogas is Carbon neutral and sustainable.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby sudarshan » 29 Sep 2019 02:39

Vayutuvan wrote:Nice graph. Methane at 200 bar (2900-3600 psi or 20-25 MPa) (1 bar = 0.1 MPa) is much better than Li-Ion already. So directly burn Biogas (Methane obtained from Biomass/agricultural waste/urban solid waste) in the IC.

Why convert to electricity and lose efficiency in distribution?

Biogas is Carbon neutral and sustainable.


I personally don't think of carbon neutrality as some kind of worthy goal. But let's leave that aside, and assume that it is a worthy goal.

Methane combustion still generates CO, NOx, SOx (from sulphur contaminates), O3, particulates, aromatics (from incomplete combustion of contaminates), metals, etc. Not to mention other pollutants which simply don't make it into the news, but which will show up in high temperature combustion - when you have the bare elements like C, O, H, N, S, P, etc., any combination of these will show up in the exhaust, just a question of the equilibrium dynamics. How about HCN (hydrogen cyanide)? Yep, that shows up in combustion exhaust, including auto exhaust. Not in sufficient quantity to kill, but there will be long term effects.

Part of the problem is that this focus on carbon neutrality obscures the bigger picture of pollution in general. Methane as fuel in automobiles still needs catalytic converters, still needs regulation of the sulphur content, and this scrubbing of the exhaust needs to happen at the individual vehicle level. The dream with batteries (whether that dream is realized is yet to be seen) is that the scrubbing can be centralized at the power-plant level, or done away with if we go solar or wind or hydro. Same with fuel cells.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Sep 2019 09:08

Vayutuvan wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:The graph below tells us the real story about energy density of different materials. Note the Li-Ion and petroleum disparity.
[img...]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Energy_Density.PNG[/img]

Nice graph. Methane at 200 bar (2900-3600 psi or 20-25 MPa) (1 bar = 0.1 MPa) is much better than Li-Ion already. So directly burn Biogas (Methane obtained from Biomass/agricultural waste/urban solid waste) in the IC.

Why convert to electricity and lose efficiency in distribution?

Biogas is Carbon neutral and sustainable.


Sudharshanji is correct. You don't want the noxious gasses, but that said, it is probably far less noxious than petrol or diesel - heck it may be even be a BS-VII emissions compatible. :mrgreen:

The Toyota Mirai and BMW Hydrogen 7 are most interesting.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix

Postby Vayutuvan » 29 Sep 2019 09:30

biogas scrubbed to 96% purity and no h2s and co2. it can be used in industrial processes where the it comes into contact with the material being heated?!

imported NG is 92% methane and N mixture.

it is surprising to hear that C neutrality is not a worthy goal. how the heck one is going to manufacture all these high falutin batteries without burning coal or other fossil fuels?

we have to stink up right now so that we can reduce C emissions for the next x years. what is the life of these batteries? would they be carbon negative by the time they have to be replaced? what about the machinery of the power plants?

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix

Postby sudarshan » 29 Sep 2019 20:21

Yes, biogas is a pretty clean fuel. Maybe very little SOx or aromatics (not quite zero, but insignificant to the point that scrubbing those components might not even be necessary), but NOx, CO, O3, particulates are still very much present in exhaust. Basically the playing field might be restricted from <C, H, O, N, S, P> to just <C, H, O, N> but this still allows CO, NOx, O3, aldehydes, ketones, HCN, etc. If the combustion occurs in pure oxygen, then N will also be restricted, but this is hardly practical. But overall, I agree, biogas is much cleaner than petrol or diesel.

About carbon neutrality:

Call me a denier or whatever, but I don't agree with this single-minded focus on CO2 as the original demon. Carbon neutrality as part of the (very much) larger picture of pollution control in general - that I agree with. Just carbon neutrality for the sake of it - nope, don't agree. When I talk about "larger picture of pollution," I mean emissions, plastic waste, landfill reduction, chemical contamination in general. As part of this, CO2 neutrality (from anthropogenic sources) makes sense to me. But it's sad when governments and citizens solely focus on CO2 and think that so long as the society achieves carbon neutrality, all will be fine. Very often I hear - "oh, that fuel will be carbon-neutral, nothing to worry about." There's still plenty of stuff to worry about beyond carbon neutrality, and carbon neutrality might be one of the last things to worry about (the rest are higher priority) - that's my stance.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Vayutuvan » 29 Sep 2019 21:13

How did you go from "carbon neutral" to mean it is the only goal?!

you haven't still answered my question - what is the source of energy for converting iron ore into steel and then make heavy machinery and make machinery and then make the cars? or other ores - bauxite to Al?

in sim sense ms. Thunberg is correct. the western way of living is wasteful. What I take issue with is the propensity of her ilk to lecture those whose per capita footprint is quite low.

My idea of limiting pollutants had to follow this bootstrap process.

1. Replace coal with biogas in industrial processes including scrubbing imported/locally mined NG.

2. Once coal usage is pushed to the barest minimum - steel requires carbon for strength - increase the energy from windmills and geothermal for electricity generation along with nuclear power and Methane (biogas/scrubbed NG).

3. Only at this step, we can think of making EVs.

The question is whether climate alarmists are right in their dire warnings? if yes, per capita energy usage has to come down. it starts with the western world changing their lifestyles.

no one missed the irony of the democrat POTUS hopefuls taking part in stake fry soon afore thumping the lectern about red meat consumption and its effect on the environment.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 30 Sep 2019 02:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby sudarshan » 29 Sep 2019 23:12

Vayutuvan wrote:How did you go from "carbon neutral" to mean it is the only goal?!


I didn't :). I was simply clarifying my stance - people and governments tend to lose sight of other goals when they get on the soap box about carbon neutrality, and I wish they wouldn't do that.

you haven't still answered my question - what is the source of energy for converting iron ore into steel and then make heavy machinery and make machinery and then make the cars? or other ores - bauxite to Al?


Sorry, was that a question for me? If you're talking about blast furnaces, then that would be coal.

in sim sense ms. Thunberg is correct. the western way of living is wasteful. What I take issue with is the propensity of her ilk to lecture those whose per capita footprint is quite low.

My idea of limiting pollutants had to follow this bootstrap process.

1.Replace coal with biogas in industrial processes including scrubbing NG

2. Once coal usage is pushed to the barest minimum - steel requires carbon for strength - increase the energy from windmills and geothermal for electricity generation along with nuclear power and biogas/NG

3. only at this step, we can think of making EVs.


See, when you say "only at this step we can think of EVs," that prioritizes carbon neutrality over everything else.

the question is whether climate alarmists are right in thier dire warnings? if yes, per capita energy usage has to come down. it starts with the western world changing their lifestyles.

no one missed the irony of the democrat POTUS hopefuls taking part in stake fry soon afore thumping the lectern about red meat consumption and its effect on the environment.


And there's the difference. I don't feel that the alarmists (you used the word) are right. Which is why I don't agree that EVs have to be put off until what you termed as "step 3." above. But that is my opinion, and just because I don't agree with the AGW theory, I'm not saying that CO2 need not be reduced at all. I'm saying - tackle all pollution and reduce or eliminate all unnecessary energy usage, and when that is done, CO2 will also be taken care of. But don't hold everything else hostage until CO2 is brought down.

I had posted a link in my first post in this thread, showing that India was already at the point where renewable energy was >33% (1/3rd) of the overall mix. Also, India is already adding more capacity in renewable energy every year, than in coal power plants. I think that's a reasonable starting point to think of EVs, rather than wait till your step 3. above.

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/2005 ... rgy-future

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Sep 2019 23:55

I had posted a link in my first post in this thread, showing that India was already at the point where renewable energy was >33% (1/3rd) of the overall mix. Also, India is already adding more capacity in renewable energy every year, than in coal power plants. I think that's a reasonable starting point to think of EVs, rather than wait


According to the CEA, the installed capacity as of Sep. 2019 was slightly over 22% RES and getting to 33% will be a long hard slog. EVs have a place for surface transportation in terms of reducing metro pollution. Beyond that no. The reality of laws of physics is far greater. May I remind people that the Saudis are planning on investing over $100 billion in India related to oil.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby sudarshan » 30 Sep 2019 00:03

Mort Walker wrote:According to the CEA, the installed capacity as of Sep. 2019 was slightly over 22% RES and getting to 33% will be a long hard slog. EVs have a place for surface transportation in terms of reducing metro pollution. Beyond that no. The reality of laws of physics is far greater. May I remind people that the Saudis are planning on investing over $100 billion in India related to oil.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable ... olar_power

Mort - from above:

Unlike most countries, until 2019 India did not count large hydro power towards renewable energy targets as hydropwer was under the older Ministry of Power instead of Ministry of New and Renewable Energy. This system was changed in 2019 and the power from large hydropower plants is since also accounted for.


In India, currently, renewable (without large hydro) is at 22.8% of total capacity. Large hydro adds another 13%, for a total of almost 36% renewable content. There is a pie chart in the above link with this breakup.

And India also seems on track to achieve 40% renewable content by 2030.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Mort Walker » 30 Sep 2019 01:34

As of Sep. 2019, the CEA does not consider the 45399 MW or the 6780 MW nuclear as RES. If you include both, then India is already above the 36% goal, so getting to 40% by 2030 is not difficult. Right now, most RES is not efficient, regardless of how cheap it is, because if you shift to EVs, then those batteries will be charged at night when the sun doesn't shine nor the wind blows hard. RES will have a larger portion of the pie, but the whole pie needs to get bigger for a modern economy. Today China has over 3 times the power generating capacity of India.

http://cea.nic.in/reports/monthly/insta ... ity-08.pdf

India needs to be cautious about EVs as the pollution problem will shift or India will be importing lots of batteries. Going strictly EV IMHO is not a good idea and rather hybrid vehicles need to considered where you have petroleum fueled electric generator in the vehicle. Avoid the costly mechanical transmission where there is a loss of power. I also think Vayutavan's approach is much more appropriate for India.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 Sep 2019 02:48

https://heetma.org/2015/04/09/embodied- ... ic-panels/

This gives some hope for Electricity generation from Solar panels from the embodied energy perspective.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 Sep 2019 03:03

Mort Walker wrote:India needs to be cautious about EVs as the pollution problem will shift or India will be importing lots of batteries.


This shifting of pollution is called the "Netherlands Fallacy". The rich nations know that their arguments are fallacious yet engage in it for self-serving reasons. They are shifting the pollution to China but not reducing their ecological footprint.

Here is Wikipedia page on Netherlands Fallacy

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 Sep 2019 03:52

I want to make one more point. Coal is not a limitless resource either

The total coal in the bowels of Earth is equal to a cube with 50 mile on the side (50^3 miles by volume with whatever average density coal has).

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 Sep 2019 03:55

https://www.ice.org.uk/knowledge-and-re ... production

which has some figures and more links at the end.

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 Sep 2019 04:03

https://www.iea.org/coal2018/

Coal demand, percentage power generation, etc.

Full report can be downloaded from here

https://webstore.iea.org/market-report-series-coal-2018

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Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 Sep 2019 05:00

Mean acidifying emissions (air pollution) of different foods per 100g of protein

Food Types|Acidifying Emissions (g SO2eq per 100g protein)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Beef|343.6
Cheese|165.5
Pork|142.7
Lamb and Mutton|139.0
Farmed Crustaceans|133.1
Poultry|102.4
Farmed Fish|65.9
Eggs|53.7
Groundnuts|22.6
Peas|8.5
Tofu|6.7

From Acid Rain (Wikipedia)

It is quite disconcerting that Democrat POTUS hopefuls and the Left Elite in India don't see their own hypocrisy when it comes to meat-eating.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7876
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Policy Changes in India: Electric Vehicles, Pollution Control, Energy Source Mix, Etc.

Postby Mort Walker » 30 Sep 2019 06:15

Vayutuvan wrote:https://heetma.org/2015/04/09/embodied-energy-in-photovoltaic-panels/

This gives some hope for Electricity generation from Solar panels from the embodied energy perspective.



Rooftop solar has lots of potential in India where people live in their houses for generations. In the US, people move quite frequently and investing in solar panels is questionable for home use where you may not be able to recover the initial cost.

In the mean time, split atoms not wood.


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