ReImagining the Indian Nation State

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tandav
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ReImagining the Indian Nation State

Postby tandav » 10 Jan 2020 09:31

We are living in time of great change and the Indian Nation State and people must also adapt to new realities. The reason why India is backward I put down to 2 main reasons 1) Poor administrative systems 2) Political system rewarding laziness and those who prevent work. 3) Inherent Chalta hain attitude. Some of my thoughts to improve things and incentivize hard work are penned below. AI + MC will make things far more efficient and has potential to revolutionize how we work and live.

X-post from Economy thread below! Comments welcome

Is there Reimagining the Indian Civilization Nation State thread? Where we can propose what would work better in the future. I have some ideas which I am penning down... and this purely is an draft exercise and subject to modification as my thoughts get challenged by inputs from my circle.

1) No private land ownership: We have done nothing to create land, we have no rights to "Own" it, we only have rights to "Use" under a rent or lease agreement. Same concepts apply to common resources such as water. Right to sustainably develop exploit such resources should be there... rent to be paid to the state for exercising such a right. Of course say I use rented land and invest create a massive lake to capture rain water as an entrepreneur, I should be able to sell the water to agriculture and industry around me for profit (there are some other issues but this is the general priniciple). Anything manmade on top of land is "Owned" by the makers... who can sell or take rent from users.

2) Citizens have to work, pay rent and pay taxes. Their hard work in their productive years will leave them with a retirement fund and the community/govt must sustain "workers" in the old age and youngsters during their learning days. Note I only talk about workers and not citizens... those who waste away their time in youth and contribute nothing will get no state support in their old age and will have to rely on their own resources.

3) Administratively Units (AUs) should be much smaller than current states... the design should be such that if a given AU does not want to participate in a project of national importance they can be bypassed by taking the other AUs. System designed to make the AUs compete with each other in getting onboard with projects of importance. Each AU should be no more than say 10 Lakh people (this may limit things especially when scale is required). Infrastructure built in the AU will be funded by land/resource rentals/lease (ref clause1) + Income Tax received from citizens residing within the AU.

4) Borders of the India Administrative Union (IAU) can be expanded by absorbing by democratic consent and/or military action to acquire other such units around its periphery as mandated by the Parliament of UIAU.

5) All citizens get a NRC linked AADHAAR card that guarantees free movement across IAU. They can vote at the present AU (after proof of ~1 year residency) to elect the AU-CEO (enables economic activity), AU-Judge(resolves disputes as per laws of IAU), AU-Sherrif(Maintains L&O) troika who then run the AU to ideally maximize wealth generation and/or follow the mandate of that particular AU. The AU CEO is remunerated by taxes / leases funds generated by the AU itself (So his/her Loyalty is to the citizens of the AU). The AU-Judge and AU-Sherrif is remunerated by IAU as (to ensure their loyalty is to the IAU system first).

6) Each AU may also have a post called Governor nominated by IAU Parliament whose job is to see the laws/standards of IAU is correctly implemented by the AU-CEO/AU-Judge/AU-Sherrif (3rd party QA/QC).

More later

ricky_v
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Re: ReImagining the Indian Nation State

Postby ricky_v » 10 Jan 2020 17:35

tandav wrote:1) No private land ownership: We have done nothing to create land, we have no rights to "Own" it, we only have rights to "Use" under a rent or lease agreement.

Right off the bat, i would like you to define what you mean by "creating the land"?
1) If some organization dredges land from the sea, is it theirs in perpetuity?, theoretically they have created land.
2) Or what if a world-continent island ala dubai is created, is that creation or not?
3) What if some private enterprise were to create a world class refinery where basic needs have not been prvided ever by the government, and the government owning adjacent land can now make 20-30 times what they would have done earlier. If land ownership is not permanent and is only on lease from a central authority, how can this free-ride by the government be legal?
4) Suppose rural people in highly dense regions have a piece of land since generations, but due to ceiling and inheritance each now possess a small acreage. Do they own it? for i am pretty sure government records can be found to corroborate the same. If not, will you evict them after say xx years for not leaving what is technically theirs and they have paid tax on land and its usage to the governemnt as deemed fair? How would the government even come in possession of such land, it has never been theirs to begin with; by what legal authority will the government now evict them?
5) What about existing structures? Will they be illegal after some time, but can be legalized in lieu of additional tax; would these be same for private and public set-ups both, for the government too has not done anything to create land after popping the one decrepit building oh-so years ago; or what about minority institutions, the schools, churches, madarssas, would the law be equal for all, or would this be one of hindu-lab rat experimentation, because i am pretty sure that you can tinker with the rights of the majority easily, but looking at minority rights with such intentions can only lead to bloodbath.
Same concepts apply to common resources such as water. Right to sustainably develop exploit such resources should be there... rent to be paid to the state for exercising such a right. Of course say I use rented land and invest create a massive lake to capture rain water as an entrepreneur, I should be able to sell the water to agriculture and industry around me for profit (there are some other issues but this is the general priniciple). Anything manmade on top of land is "Owned" by the makers... who can sell or take rent from users.

1) If i employ rain water harvesting in my duplex say, or i gather with a community of like minded people in my society, and we create the infrastructure with no help from the government and out of own pockets, will i be required to pay a tax to the government for what is my own hard work and resource, and the government is letting it go waste? what would propel a person to do such a thing?
Yeah so Mr. anon, we cannot do anything to preserve run-off water and have zero vision at this time. We hear that you have done some basic rigging out of your own effort, and you can have the right to this water for a tax , of course. We will be back for the air tax later.


2) Citizens have to work, pay rent and pay taxes. Their hard work in their productive years will leave them with a retirement fund and the community/govt must sustain "workers" in the old age and youngsters during their learning days. Note I only talk about workers and not citizens... those who waste away their time in youth and contribute nothing will get no state support in their old age and will have to rely on their own resources.

So i wageslave for what... 30,40 years paying whatever new cess the govnment wills, paying my income tax and all those little gst laden articles, for years on end, so that someday the government may throw whatever scrap it deems fit of what is essentially my money after holding onto it and compunding it however it pleases, and if i were to die soon after a prolonged, miserable life, the accrued monies can now go to my family, me never knowing what that money looked like or better yet the government should retract such money for i am already unproductive(though my last-rites would definitely boost the local economy, so some good atleast comes of that). Yeah, sign me up twice for that one.
[/quote]

Rishirishi
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Re: ReImagining the Indian Nation State

Postby Rishirishi » 11 Jan 2020 06:30

So i wageslave for what... 30,40 years paying whatever new cess the govnment wills, paying my income tax and all those little gst laden articles, for years on end, so that someday the government may throw whatever scrap it deems fit of what is essentially my money after holding onto it and compunding it however it pleases, and if i were to die soon after a prolonged, miserable life, the accrued monies can now go to my family, me never knowing what that money looked like or better yet the government should retract such money for i am already unproductive(though my last-rites would definitely boost the local economy, so some good atleast comes of that). Yeah, sign me up twice for that one.


People have to pay tax, if you they want roads, hospitals, law and order, national security, etc etc.

Indians pay only 16% tax of the GDP. In most western countires the figure is closer to 40%. Indians are all too happy to settle in the west, even for lower purchasing power.

ricky_v
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Re: ReImagining the Indian Nation State

Postby ricky_v » 11 Jan 2020 09:36

Rishirishi wrote:People have to pay tax, if you they want roads, hospitals, law and order, national security, etc etc.

Indians pay only 16% tax of the GDP. In most western countires the figure is closer to 40%. Indians are all too happy to settle in the west, even for lower purchasing power.

Ah yes, pay taxes to avail benefits; lets take a closer look at it;
1) Schooling/education:
The approximate ratio of public schools to private schools in India is 7:5. At the primary and secondary level, India has a large private school system complementing the government run schools, with 29% of students receiving private education in the 6 to 14 age group.[7] Certain post-secondary technical schools are also private. The private education market in India had a revenue of US$450 million in 2008, but is projected to be a US$40 billion market.[8]

Now why is that the ratio of public to private schools so close to 1? It really is a mystery why people are paying 10 times extra right from kindergarten to 12th for their children, when these shining beacons of public infrastructure are right there for usage. I suppose the same is true for the west as well, school districts are not a concept.
Now suppose the govt increases taxes and states that all would be provided free education in such mini-jnus, would these unfair advantageous institutions required to close shop? i for one would welcome such a move, provided we are all given the same level of expertise by the govt, and we would all discuss the "haunting lullabies in the patriarchial society of india, and its debilitating causes of social mores".
Also, people pay more here than they realise, for the cost of education is charged annually by a cess, so you pay that and you pay for your kids private school fee, seems justified.
2) Medical/Public health:
20% of all maternal deaths and 25% of all child deaths in the world occur in India. 34 out of 1000 children are dead by the time they reach the age of 5.[3] 58% of Indians are immunized in urban areas compared to only 39% in rural areas. Communicable disease is the cause of death for 53% of all deaths in India.

Since 2005, most of the healthcare capacity added has been in the private sector, or in partnership with the private sector. The private sector consists of 58% of the hospitals in the country, 29% of beds in hospitals, and 81% of doctors.
According to National Family Health Survey-3, the private medical sector remains the primary source of health care for 70% of households in urban areas and 63% of households in rural areas.[13]

Boy, i sure am glad that all that tax paying has resulted in such a growth in public health space, where i may be treated for a very less amount in hygenic conditions.
Oh, you mention AIIMS well here:
https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/story/aiims-delhi-govt-hospitals-shortage-doctors-1500036-2019-04-12
The two aren't the only sufferers. Hundreds of patients at top government health facilities in Delhi are being given dates that range between six months and two years.

The crisis is primarily because of increasing patient numbers and a massive shortage of doctors, beds and equipment.

The most affected are AIIMS, Dr Ram Manohar Lohia Hospital, Guru Teg Bahadur Hospital, Govind Ballabh Pant Institute of Postgraduate Medical Education & Research, Sanjay Gandhi Memorial Hospital, Lok Nayak Hospital, Sir Ganga Ram Hospital, Institute of Human Behaviour and Allied Sciences (IHBAS), Dr Baba Saheb Ambedkar Hospital and Babu Jagjiwan Ram Hospital.

I am sure there are many such heartwarming stories, my own cousin suffering from cancer was told at tmu that the next available date was after 3-4 months, but for a fee 10 times its cost, the procedure could be carried out the following week. All of his parents tax-paying for life, and when needed most, why, just pay extra.
Bear in mind, i do not state that the medical cost in india is expensive, and that the thievery between insurance companies and hospitals as is observed in the west is the model to be followed, i am stating what little accountability the govt has towards my money.
Now, you may state that this money is for the underprivileged and that their well-being and health is beneficial for the growth and progress of the nation, all reasonable points, but why should i bite the bullet for "king and country" as it were?, it is my right as well as any others to be treated for a fee that is deemed fair, and at a time convenient to me, by the virtue of my tax-paying, yet that seldom occurs.
The list of money lost by the government in the name of mismanagement in all sectors is too much to derail this topic, why we can go in with a fine-comb over all the money in all the sectors the government has ever spent, without taking into account all of corruption, and hold it to accountability, but that may require another thread.
All i have to say is that some viewpoint is that the government should tax me from cradle to grave,provide questionable service, tax me on services that i pay for because of its shoddy performance, mentally harass me when i come forth to claim what is mine, all for the off-chance that someday i might be given enough to die quietly with what was mine to begin with, does not seem appealing at all.

tandav
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Re: ReImagining the Indian Nation State

Postby tandav » 11 Jan 2020 11:10

ricky_v wrote:
tandav wrote:1) No private land ownership: We have done nothing to create land, we have no rights to "Own" it, we only have rights to "Use" under a rent or lease agreement.

Right off the bat, i would like you to define what you mean by "creating the land"?
1) If some organization dredges land from the sea, is it theirs in perpetuity?, theoretically they have created land.
Answer : If it is done by IAU (the land would belong to IAU and not the private entity who would be given rights to utilize that land for no rent say for 30 years)

2) Or what if a world-continent island ala dubai is created, is that creation or not?
Answer : Yes it is and IAU will hold ownership the private entity will hold long term no rent lease perhaps (case to case basis we can decide). Ideally this project will be funded by public money generated by IAU

3) What if some private enterprise were to create a world class refinery where basic needs have not been prvided ever by the government, and the government owning adjacent land can now make 20-30 times what they would have done earlier. If land ownership is not permanent and is only on lease from a central authority, how can this free-ride by the government be legal?
Answer: Anchor projects such as this each AU would compete to get into their own districts... the private enterprise will go to the AU who gives best deal

4) Suppose rural people in highly dense regions have a piece of land since generations, but due to ceiling and inheritance each now possess a small acreage. Do they own it? for i am pretty sure government records can be found to corroborate the same. If not, will you evict them after say xx years for not leaving what is technically theirs and they have paid tax on land and its usage to the governemnt as deemed fair? How would the government even come in possession of such land, it has never been theirs to begin with; by what legal authority will the government now evict them?
Ans: Land Tax paid is a pittance and most of the land holding in India are unproductive as the land tax is very very low and most owners have no capital and no real incentive to make it productive most of the time they are fighting with each other to claim possession from their siblings and relative. There is no income generated from the land either... 30-40% of cultivable land is lying useless... most Owners of land were granted Land by the then kings and it is very recently only has the Indian state given ownership (~40years) of land to the cultivators... previously all users of land were actually leasors from the Kings/Rulers... Citizens should have given leases and not ownership. As per me it is an error of the Indian state. China did not give land ownership to users of land only leases. One of the reasons Chinese are so productive is because they know they own nothing but their movable wealth and their own hard work.


5) What about existing structures? Will they be illegal after some time, but can be legalized in lieu of additional tax; would these be same for private and public set-ups both, for the government too has not done anything to create land after popping the one decrepit building oh-so years ago; or what about minority institutions, the schools, churches, madarssas, would the law be equal for all, or would this be one of hindu-lab rat experimentation, because i am pretty sure that you can tinker with the rights of the majority easily, but looking at minority rights with such intentions can only lead to bloodbath.
Tough questions and I have no good answers one option is Give Asset Credit (if say the property is worth 100Cr and rent is 2 Cr per year) then the property transfer to IAU with an equivalent rent as credit. The big advantage is that if the Govt wants to acquire that property for public use they just have to raise funds to pay the remaining credit and take possession, leasors will have to move to other location.

Same concepts apply to common resources such as water. Right to sustainably develop exploit such resources should be there... rent to be paid to the state for exercising such a right. Of course say I use rented land and invest create a massive lake to capture rain water as an entrepreneur, I should be able to sell the water to agriculture and industry around me for profit (there are some other issues but this is the general priniciple). Anything manmade on top of land is "Owned" by the makers... who can sell or take rent from users.

1) If i employ rain water harvesting in my duplex say, or i gather with a community of like minded people in my society, and we create the infrastructure with no help from the government and out of own pockets, will i be required to pay a tax to the government for what is my own hard work and resource, and the government is letting it go waste? what would propel a person to do such a thing?
Yeah so Mr. anon, we cannot do anything to preserve run-off water and have zero vision at this time. We hear that you have done some basic rigging out of your own effort, and you can have the right to this water for a tax , of course. We will be back for the air tax later.

Answer: No You only pay rent for the land (which is fixed as per circle rate) when you create an asset which creates value that value is yours to take to bank.

2) Citizens have to work, pay rent and pay taxes. Their hard work in their productive years will leave them with a retirement fund and the community/govt must sustain "workers" in the old age and youngsters during their learning days. Note I only talk about workers and not citizens... those who waste away their time in youth and contribute nothing will get no state support in their old age and will have to rely on their own resources.

So i wageslave for what... 30,40 years paying whatever new cess the govnment wills, paying my income tax and all those little gst laden articles, for years on end, so that someday the government may throw whatever scrap it deems fit of what is essentially my money after holding onto it and compunding it however it pleases, and if i were to die soon after a prolonged, miserable life, the accrued monies can now go to my family, me never knowing what that money looked like or better yet the government should retract such money for i am already unproductive(though my last-rites would definitely boost the local economy, so some good atleast comes of that). Yeah, sign me up twice for that one.
[/quote]

Answer: Land Rent/ GST Rate /Income Tax is set by IAU parliament + AU governing council... you can set it locally to whatever community is willing to pay, the quality of services in the particular AU will be a function of the Land Rent and the productivity of its population. Highly productive clusters will become cities and unproductive clusters will become retirement homes.

amritk
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Re: ReImagining the Indian Nation State

Postby amritk » 14 Jan 2020 12:11

Thank you Tandav; we've looked at:

1. Gandhian/minimalist system (village based, cottage industries). Low output but high happiness. We dropped this in an unseemly hurry the first chance we got. We didn't know the value of what we had, and yes it's hard to sustain the pressure of globalization.

2. Monarchy (the heyday of Indic states).

3. US system (two party politics, everyone can vote, eminent domain rarely exercised and then with generous compensation, almost complete freedom of movement). Can feel as if like the children are running the household. Much of its success is due to discipline and work of immigrants from more structured societies.

4. Chinese system (one party system akin to a corporation, only party members can vote and it takes NCC/RSS style commitment to become a member, no private ownership of land and no freedom of movement, paternal approach, meritocratic administrative service).

5. I am curious about Germany. Do they have a system that is distinct from these? What it their society like? I have not spent much time there so I don't know. Less diverse for sure.

6. British colonial system

7. Current India (very weak system of any kind - IR being the saving grace along with remainders of Indic civilizational memory)


Regarding new proposals, one of the most promising things Modi had said when campaigning at the national level for the first time was that he firmly believed that no changes were needed to the constitution to make India much more successful ...

tandav
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Re: ReImagining the Indian Nation State

Postby tandav » 14 Jan 2020 21:04

amritk wrote:Thank you Tandav; we've looked at:

1. Gandhian/minimalist system (village based, cottage industries). Low output but high happiness. We dropped this in an unseemly hurry the first chance we got. We didn't know the value of what we had, and yes it's hard to sustain the pressure of globalization.

2. Monarchy (the heyday of Indic states).

3. US system (two party politics, everyone can vote, eminent domain rarely exercised and then with generous compensation, almost complete freedom of movement). Can feel as if like the children are running the household. Much of its success is due to discipline and work of immigrants from more structured societies.

4. Chinese system (one party system akin to a corporation, only party members can vote and it takes NCC/RSS style commitment to become a member, no private ownership of land and no freedom of movement, paternal approach, meritocratic administrative service).

5. I am curious about Germany. Do they have a system that is distinct from these? What it their society like? I have not spent much time there so I don't know. Less diverse for sure.

6. British colonial system

7. Current India (very weak system of any kind - IR being the saving grace along with remainders of Indic civilizational memory)


Regarding new proposals, one of the most promising things Modi had said when campaigning at the national level for the first time was that he firmly believed that no changes were needed to the constitution to make India much more successful ...


Thank you for summarizing the other systems of governance here. Germany and Japanese soceities on an individual level are very open minded however their inherent cultures do not allow racial diversity. They will remain inward looking. The EU experiment was not a great success so far but valuable lessons to be learnt. I personally feel that India is far more unified than the EU.

India has massive advantage... it is able to absorb various cultures, languages far more effectively than any of its competing civilizations. This is due to the inherent diversity of India itself. There is no fundamental reason why say parts of present day Turkmenistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Srilanka, Nepal etc cannot join a future IAU, they will derive as much benefit from this association as long as joining the Union makes economic sense. The Chinese define being Chinese as more or less conforming to the HAN race, India does not depend on race, she can pull more territories into her orbit if the productivity of the core improves to Chinese levels. If the idea of Islam as a political force can be subsumed by a more modern secular IAU most of present Indo China would join IAU rather than China. I can easily see in say 40-50 years the people of IAU electing their Head of State whose origins herald from say Phillipines to Black Sea (Turkmenistan), on the basis of performance and ability. We must open our doors for talent across the world.


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