Pollution in Indian cities.

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How much would you be willing to sacrifice for clean air.

Nothing, I prioritize economic activities.
2
7%
Mild measures. I am willing to accept some measures that does not disturb the economic that much. Example; Ban coal, garbage and wood burning.
2
7%
Stronger measures: I am willing to accept some price increase in electricity and products. Example; rapid shutdown of coal plants and stop farmer fires.
4
14%
Very strong measures: I think we should take the environment very serious and I am willing to make the sacrifices to get fresh air. Example on petrol/diesel private cars (allow gas cars),only e-scoters, demand that building construction sites have to cover bare earth area, ban on burning of grass for making bricks etc.
6
21%
Very strict measures:I think fresh air and an healthy environment is second to only food and health. Example; western type pollution requirements towards industries. Total ban on industrial waste going to rivers used for drinking water. Ban on plastic pack-edging, road tax to pay for proper pavement of roads, etc.
15
52%
 
Total votes: 29

Rishirishi
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Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Rishirishi » 22 Apr 2020 04:38

Let us discuss the drawbacks of pollution, possible solutions and reasons.

It is estimated that up to 40% of Indians want to move from Indian cities, due to dangerous air quality. Millions are suffering from astma, rivers are dying out.

Some economic losses i can think of.
-India is unable to build world class clusters, due to pollution. The smartest people do not wan't to live in India.
-Foreigners dislike making trips to India (both business and tourist)
-Millions of Indians head to other countries to escape pollution.
-loss of life, due to issues like astma.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Pratyush » 22 Apr 2020 13:18

Voted point no 1. Not because I am having a fundamental disagreement with the need to control pollution.

But because we are a poor country that might not be able to afford the latest in green technologies. Also one that may not be able to reduce dependence on fossil fuels as an energy source in the short run.

However, over the next 15 to 20 years

1) I would be open to the idea of reducing our fossil fuel dependence along with using carbon capture technologies to deal with air pollution.

2) I will also support building smart domestic sewage treatment capacities in various Indian cities. That is some thing that can feed bio gas to cooking gas grids of different cities. Also mandate that all Indian cities recycle and treat as much water as possible to reduce pressures on river ecosystems over the next 15 to 20 years.

3) The same can be done at various landfills of the country. Where gas generated by decomposition of organic matter is evacuated and fed to gas grids of the cities. The decomposed matter can be used as organic fertilizer. Recycle as much of non organic matter as it is possible to do so. These 2 steps will be helpful in reducing the scale of landfill required to manage waste generated by urban and rural India.

Hope it makes sense to people on the forum.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby disha » 22 Apr 2020 21:32

Pollution effects poorer more.

Voted for option 5

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Apr 2020 21:48

I vote NOTA since Rishirishi's options are all wrong doesn't know what he's talking about.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Apr 2020 21:51

Pratyush wrote:Voted point no 1. Not because I am having a fundamental disagreement with the need to control pollution.

But because we are a poor country that might not be able to afford the latest in green technologies. Also one that may not be able to reduce dependence on fossil fuels as an energy source in the short run.

However, over the next 15 to 20 years

1) I would be open to the idea of reducing our fossil fuel dependence along with using carbon capture technologies to deal with air pollution.

2) I will also support building smart domestic sewage treatment capacities in various Indian cities. That is some thing that can feed bio gas to cooking gas grids of different cities. Also mandate that all Indian cities recycle and treat as much water as possible to reduce pressures on river ecosystems over the next 15 to 20 years.

3) The same can be done at various landfills of the country. Where gas generated by decomposition of organic matter is evacuated and fed to gas grids of the cities. The decomposed matter can be used as organic fertilizer. Recycle as much of non organic matter as it is possible to do so. These 2 steps will be helpful in reducing the scale of landfill required to manage waste generated by urban and rural India.

Hope it makes sense to people on the forum.



This is correct. Industrial waste and water treatment systems are lacking. We see clean air and water today during the lockdown because industries are shutdown. If vehicle emissions were zero, but industry went back into pollution, we would see air quality improve slightly, but not significantly. PPM would still be very high.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 22 Apr 2020 21:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Raveen » 22 Apr 2020 21:53

disha wrote:Pollution effects poorer more.

Voted for option 5


How so?

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Rishirishi » 23 Apr 2020 04:56

Happy to see how many value a safe environment.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Mort Walker » 23 Apr 2020 06:43

^^^Out of a sample size of 13. The questions are like Pakis asking which one of five ways has the Pak Army improved your life? :rotfl:

1. Pak Army has improved my chances of getting 72 virgins.
2. Pak Army has made Pakistan a super-duper power with nuclear weapons.
3. Pak Army has defeated India in all wars.
4. Pak Army has improved Pakistan's international standing and international respect.
5. Pak Army has run the country the best when in power.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Rishirishi » 24 Apr 2020 05:23

Mort Walker wrote:^^^Out of a sample size of 13. The questions are like Pakis asking which one of five ways has the Pak Army improved your life? :rotfl:

1. Pak Army has improved my chances of getting 72 virgins.
2. Pak Army has made Pakistan a super-duper power with nuclear weapons.
3. Pak Army has defeated India in all wars.
4. Pak Army has improved Pakistan's international standing and international respect.
5. Pak Army has run the country the best when in power.



Out of 13, only 2 seems to be as intelligent as you. :lol:

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby NRao » 24 Apr 2020 06:05

A couple of three points:

1) In this case - one can keep and eat the cake. So, one can achieve clean air/water/etc AND maintain a healthy economy. The problem has always been the distribution of that wealth! Fix distribution and you should have a population that is comfortable, BUT a Wall Street that is in permanent depression

2) Cleaning after the fact is EXTREMELY expensive. People do not realize the amount of $$$ spent by the US to clean their rivers. You can download a complimentary PDF, but, US Water Pollution Regulation over the Past Half-Century: Burning Waters to Crystal Springs? 2019:

In the half century since the founding of the US Environmental Protection Agency, public and private US sources have spent nearly $5 trillion ($2017) to provide clean rivers, lakes, and drinking water (annual spending of 0.8 percent of US GDP in most years). Yet over half of rivers and substantial shares of drinking water systems violate standards, and polls for decades have listed water pollution as Americans' number one environmental concern.


(Aside: Plenty of Indian Civil Engineers in the 50-70s got GC because of these projects)

BTW, this study does not seem to account for monies spent prior to the founding of the EPA. I think that $5 trillion is relatively low. Should be, IMHO, between 10-15.

And, that is ONLY for water. NOTHING else.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby KJo » 24 Apr 2020 06:13

I voted for 5, but then I don't think we can get to 5 right away for India. We have to start with 2 and then gradually make it more stringent as the economy adjusts. Will take time but needs strong leadership.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Mort Walker » 24 Apr 2020 09:55

Rishirishi wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:^^^Out of a sample size of 13. The questions are like Pakis asking which one of five ways has the Pak Army improved your life? :rotfl:

1. Pak Army has improved my chances of getting 72 virgins.
2. Pak Army has made Pakistan a super-duper power with nuclear weapons.
3. Pak Army has defeated India in all wars.
4. Pak Army has improved Pakistan's international standing and international respect.
5. Pak Army has run the country the best when in power.



Out of 13, only 2 seems to be as intelligent as you. :lol:


I didn't vote for your bogus poll. I only came here to call you out on the constant nonsense you fill in ALL of these threads without looking at the problem. You've been debunked in each and every thread. You should simply go away. So shoo!

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Rishirishi » 26 Apr 2020 02:52

KJo wrote:I voted for 5, but then I don't think we can get to 5 right away for India. We have to start with 2 and then gradually make it more stringent as the economy adjusts. Will take time but needs strong leadership.



There is a popular belief that the common man will suffer from environmental protection. It may not be the case. Just imagine the farmers who burn the crops. Will they die if they grow something else? The tanneries, the chemical plants, the dying houses etc etc all have technology to clean it up. It may increase the costs by a few %. If you cant afford they new leather jacket, can't you just wear some other one.

Is it fair that you have to suffer from life threatening smog, just so that someone else can make some profits. Should not Air be a human right?
I think the common man is the one who is suffering most from the pollution. They have to suffer. Imagine what it all costs in medical expenses.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Rishirishi » 26 Apr 2020 03:06

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution_in_Delhi

Air pollution in India is estimated to kill about 2 million people every year; it is the fifth largest killer in India. India has the world's highest death rate from chronic respiratory diseases and asthma, according to the WHO. In Delhi, poor quality air irreversibly damages the lungs of 2.2 million or 50 percent of all children.


Effects on children
2.2 million children in Delhi have irreversible lung damage due to the poor quality of the air. In addition, research shows that pollution can lower children's immune system and increase the risks of cancer, epilepsy, diabetes and even adult-onset diseases like multiple sclerosis. Children are more vulnerable to the negative effects of air pollution as they are growing and developing which means that they breathe a higher rate of air per kilogram of their body weight. They also spend more time outside and are thus more exposed to it. [30]

Effects on adults
Poor air quality is a cause of reduced lung capacity, headaches, sore throats, coughs, fatigue, lung cancer, and early death.[20][30]

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Apr 2020 03:07

Rishirishi wrote:
There is a popular belief that the common man will suffer from environmental protection. It may not be the case. Just imagine the farmers who burn the crops. Will they die if they grow something else? The tanneries, the chemical plants, the dying houses etc etc all have technology to clean it up. It may increase the costs by a few %. If you cant afford they new leather jacket, can't you just wear some other one.

Is it fair that you have to suffer from life threatening smog, just so that someone else can make some profits. Should not Air be a human right?
I think the common man is the one who is suffering most from the pollution. They have to suffer. Imagine what it all costs in medical expenses.


I agree with this. If industries and farmers clean up, air and water will be much cleaner.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby SBajwa » 26 Apr 2020 13:28

Rishirishi wrote:
KJo wrote:I voted for 5, but then I don't think we can get to 5 right away for India. We have to start with 2 and then gradually make it more stringent as the economy adjusts. Will take time but needs strong leadership.



There is a popular belief that the common man will suffer from environmental protection. It may not be the case. Just imagine the farmers who burn the crops. Will they die if they grow something else? The tanneries, the chemical plants, the dying houses etc etc all have technology to clean it up. It may increase the costs by a few %. If you cant afford they new leather jacket, can't you just wear some other one.

Is it fair that you have to suffer from life threatening smog, just so that someone else can make some profits. Should not Air be a human right?
I think the common man is the one who is suffering most from the pollution. They have to suffer. Imagine what it all costs in medical expenses.


Please check the other thread that shows that with 2 weeks of lockdown pollution is non existent.

Problem is not the farmers but industries and old vehicles and two wheelers.

Farmers do not need minimum guaranteed prices which makes them to start growing the next crop right away and thus burning the stubble in winter(paddy).

Pollution is a much simpler solution as shown by covid lockdown.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby isubodh » 26 Apr 2020 14:30

The question here will get responses on the higher side. Well their is a hidden bias since someone visiting this page is more likely to be in favour of clean environment.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Rishirishi » 26 Apr 2020 21:21

Pollution is a much simpler solution as shown by covid lockdown.


Exactly!!
I am just hoping the lockdown will open peoples eyes. When 50% of the children have permanent damage to their lungs, the issue must not be ignored.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Rishirishi » 26 Apr 2020 21:27

The question here will get responses on the higher side. Well their is a hidden bias since someone visiting this page is more likely to be in favour of clean environment.


That could be the case, or it could not. But then most sensible people will prioritize lungs over money.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Apr 2020 21:29

Rishirishi wrote:
Pollution is a much simpler solution as shown by covid lockdown.


Exactly!!
I am just hoping the lockdown will open peoples eyes. When 50% of the children have permanent damage to their lungs, the issue must not be ignored.



Air pollution is much less due to consumer vehicles that run on gasoline, than it is from diesel vehicles and polluting industries. Polluting industries are the low hanging fruit.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Apr 2020 21:30

Rishirishi wrote:
The question here will get responses on the higher side. Well their is a hidden bias since someone visiting this page is more likely to be in favour of clean environment.


That could be the case, or it could not. But then most sensible people will prioritize lungs over money.



But this is not the case anywhere in the world. Industries provide employment and income. You die from lung pollution or starvation. A bargain must be made.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby sudarshan » 26 Apr 2020 21:36

Rishirishi - I won't be voting in your poll, because I currently don't live in India, so I don't think it would be fair. But my choice would be between 4 & 5. Maybe like 4.9893. I don't agree with wording such as "ban on plastic packaging" because I think plastics have their place, never been comfortable with demonizing anybody or anything. If plastics use were restricted to 1/10th of current use, and if >90 to 95% of that were recycled, I think we'd be in a good situation (just my opinion of course).

The lockdown does show that the solution to pollution is very simple, but is it viable? Some things can be done, like encouraging more WFH, especially for IT types. How about industry? Shutting it down for a lockdown was relatively simple (though at what eventual cost, we still don't know), investing in cleaning it up isn't so straightforward, though if the will is there, it can be done. I hope people got a good glimpse of what the country really is like, minus the perpetual pollution, and I hope they want to keep it that way.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Apr 2020 21:41

^^^Until India has a per capita income near $10K, there will be all sorts of problems. To fastest way to reduce pollution is to raise income levels.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Rishirishi » 27 Apr 2020 05:48

sudarshan wrote:Rishirishi - I won't be voting in your poll, because I currently don't live in India, so I don't think it would be fair. But my choice would be between 4 & 5. Maybe like 4.9893. I don't agree with wording such as "ban on plastic packaging" because I think plastics have their place, never been comfortable with demonizing anybody or anything. If plastics use were restricted to 1/10th of current use, and if >90 to 95% of that were recycled, I think we'd be in a good situation (just my opinion of course).

The lockdown does show that the solution to pollution is very simple, but is it viable? Some things can be done, like encouraging more WFH, especially for IT types. How about industry? Shutting it down for a lockdown was relatively simple (though at what eventual cost, we still don't know), investing in cleaning it up isn't so straightforward, though if the will is there, it can be done. I hope people got a good glimpse of what the country really is like, minus the perpetual pollution, and I hope they want to keep it that way.



China produces much more and that too at very competitive cost, have better air quality, compared to Indian cities. I am not saying India can become Switzerland over night. Good results can be achieved with modest measures . I mention.

1 Stop burnings from farm in Punjab. The reason for the burning fields that grow rice with gov subsidy. They also consume a lot of water.
2 Smoke from burning grass to make brics, becase it is marginally cheaper.
3 Burning garbage, wood and coal for domestic use. Using LPG is marginally expensiver (this is extreemly harmfull for the whomen).
4 construction sites. Demand that the excavation is completed within 60-90 days and then covered up. Now the sites can be ongoing for years.
5 As India now has a surplus of electricity, the most polluting coal plants should be considered shut down.
6 Ban all untreated industrial waste. The factory owner may save some small sums, but the rest of the public have to pay dearly.
etc etc.

It is a complete wrong notion that India has to choose between food and environment. It is more like between a new fabric jacket, in stead of leather one. As for the costs.

I wish people ever bothered reflecting over why so many of the brightest people leave India. I think poor environment is one of the main reasons. Even people with large businesses, choose to settle the kids abroad. Simply because they like to breathe fresh air.

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Rishirishi » 30 Apr 2020 14:35

TED talk Dr Gosh on air polution. Clean air is possible, but only if citizens demand it.



https://www.ted.com/talks/arunabha_ghosh_5_steps_for_clean_air_in_india

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby mukkan » 03 May 2020 07:37

Image

The significant reduction in the concentrations can be seen over major cities across India. Mumbai and Delhi saw drops of around 40-50% compared to the same time last year.
“What is interesting in these new maps are the high values of nitrogen dioxide concentrations over northeast India. Our analysis shows that these clusters are directly linked with the locations of the ongoing coal-based power plants. The largest power station in India, the Vindhyachal Super Thermal Power Station, shows a reduction of only around 15% compared to the same time last year.”

https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/Copernicus/Sentinel-5P/Air_pollution_drops_in_India_following_lockdown

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Raveen » 04 May 2020 06:03

mukkan wrote:Image

The significant reduction in the concentrations can be seen over major cities across India. Mumbai and Delhi saw drops of around 40-50% compared to the same time last year.
“What is interesting in these new maps are the high values of nitrogen dioxide concentrations over northeast India. Our analysis shows that these clusters are directly linked with the locations of the ongoing coal-based power plants. The largest power station in India, the Vindhyachal Super Thermal Power Station, shows a reduction of only around 15% compared to the same time last year.”

https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/Copernicus/Sentinel-5P/Air_pollution_drops_in_India_following_lockdown



Irony is the post COVID peaks remain where we have power plants - these power plants provide the juice for RishiRishi's pure EV dreams in teh Oil and Gar dhaga. L - O - L

:rotfl:

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Re: Pollution in Indian cities.

Postby Prasad » 04 May 2020 15:37

Our power plants have been lethargic and govt is letting things idle because it takes a lot of money to reduce pollution. Look -
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 761232.cms

We apparently don't have indian tech to do this, adding up to the cost. If we do this, we will get better air quality over northern india.


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