Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Shivani
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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Shivani » 25 Jul 2008 20:47

prashanth wrote:Israelis are right. No negotiations with ....


The reason Israelis can proudly claim to live to such a philosophy is because they are just as fundamentalistic as the people they fight (and this is not negative criticism of Israel).

Before you execute a 'no negotiation' policy externally, there has to be a consensus in the psyche of the people that leaves no room for negotiations internally, as well. In addition to that, they have engineered a position for themselves in the international order which has allowed them to survive against such odds.

Full marks to them, but implementing a zero-tolerance policy will take a lot of work in India. Also, unlike us Israelis seem to work 24X7 trying to extend all their option against their enemies, all the while doing everything in their will-power to degrade the enemies capabilities.

Our national security posture cannot be one derived from fit-and-starts. Or even cold start.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Abhijit » 25 Jul 2008 20:56

we are currently giving an impression that there are no 'redlines' for us - meaning there is nothing at all that will make us react forcefully against pakistan. no provocation will be grave enough for us to launch a war. either that or that the redlines have not been crossed. a few bomb blasts here and there killing a bunch of innocents is not a redline - as per the official (in)action.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby JwalaMukhi » 25 Jul 2008 20:57

Shivani wrote:This is disturbing.
Human life has no value to these politicians.

Sadly that is sorry state of affairs. The ramifications are quite disturbing. The general apathy is not just with the politicos but also with the ruling elite. The politicos and bureaucracy does not identify with the Mango Man on the street, and feel as a class apart. Routinely, such deaths become statistic. Remember we still have District Collectors (instread of plain district administrators), as if out to collect jaziya for the Company from the public. The public servants (politicos and Babus) have to identify with the common man and serve and seen to be serving (both important - image management issue) the public.

The common man returns the favour of general apathy towards them. If the nation can swallow the death of commoners with impunity, it will also swallow the death/attack of politicos (as in attack on parliament) or more recently the deaths of Babus (as seen in the recent consulate attack). So beyond general apathy and heartache there will be no national consensus. Till the interests of common man are held in sacredness and seen to be held in sacredness by the powers that be, the national consensus will be hard to come by.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby BijuShet » 25 Jul 2008 21:05

narayanan wrote:That's the other thing I would suggest: that blasts deafen, so I don't want to hear ANY "messages" sent through terrorism. The only "message" is that there are some idiots who need to be arrested, tried swiftly, and hanged. In pieces, OK, but after due conviction and appeals. Swift appeals.
...

I know this is unfairly hard, terrible on the law-enforcement people. They need all our support, BUT, sorry, NOT to take the "easy route".

You are suggesting going after the puppets(the local participants/handlers) while the puppeteers are safely ensconsed in their clifton beach houses. Law enforcements cannot tackle the puppeteers as they are safely out of harms way. Seeking law enforcement solutions to such issues is a short term solution to a cancerous problem. The folks who send us messages via these incidents need to be made part of the solution for example unkil routinely targets the financial resources of problem childs in the ME. This silent lathi carries far more wieght than all the leaden leg irons of the Andamans. Hit them where it hurts the most. Rape businessmen are the real power behind the throne in the Paki scheme of things so why not ensure that our Kaccha bacchas make their routine travels abroad for business and pleasure an adventure sport fraught with risks to life and limb.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Raju » 25 Jul 2008 21:07

Our national security posture cannot be one derived from fit-and-starts. Or even cold start.


It is not, it is planned years in advance.

Abhijit wrote:we are currently giving an impression that there are no 'redlines' for us - meaning there is nothing at all that will make us react forcefully against pakistan. no provocation will be grave enough for us to launch a war. either that or that the redlines have not been crossed. a few bomb blasts here and there killing a bunch of innocents is not a redline - as per the official (in)action.

But if indeed the concerned authorities are convinced that pakistan and its allied agencies are behind these blasts, then they will share such information with the Govt and surely there shall be no chanakiyan statements that "the peace process shall go on unhindered" or "Pakistan too is a victim of terror". Then there are the yearly news articles that eminate from Delhi that the security for VVIP's esp in NDMC have been raised as compared to past year, news and articles regarding this are generated every year. Which means every year the security for VVIP's (top politicos and bureaucrats) is being increased disproportionately every passing year. So they are taking precautions commensurate with declining security situation keeping in mind corresponding intelligence inputs.

And then there is news reports from various states that the State Police is in increasing state of disrepair and preparedness. All police accountability is mainly towards security and protection of the political elite.

If one game-theories keeping in mind prominently the two above statements, then the resulting conclusions shall be very disturbing.

So if India continues to say that "peace process is on" and "Pakistan is a victim of terror" then the obvious conclusion is that the politicians and key officials are covering their posteriors while the citizens are left out to fend for themselves. They can continue to issue statements and play chanakiyan games with Pakistan (if indeed Pakistan based Islamists and Intel agencies are responsible for blasts) with no cost to them.

Since no one else is being blamed for these blasts including the Naxalites or the Chinese. The conclusion is that the political class is playing a cynical "so-called Chanakiyan" game with Pakistan in which they suffer no loss while keeping the people in the dark. Or else something else entirely different or unconceivable till now is up, including N^3's theory of extra-terrestrial interference.

In any case the citizens are on their own. They better take their own precautions rather than believe what the Govt dishes out.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby prashanth » 25 Jul 2008 21:32

Shivani,
No disputes whatsoever with your post. :)

But i have this opinion.
Right now things are like this. the extremist may not fear for life. He does his job and tries his luck to evade police,IB etc. If indeed he is caught investigation is carried on for years. At the end he is sentenced to death. Circumstances prevent his execution( as is the case now).
At the end of the day we have extremist acts in which hundreds are killed, yet the one who is responsible, continues to live on. this gives the potential extremists enough courage to do their tasks. This is where the fault lies.

Frankly it is next to impossible to curb extremism based on intelligence gathering alone, given the demographic profile of India. Rather the intelligence must resort to such ops that instill fear among the potential miscreants so thet they never dare do what they do. That calls for KGB/Schutzstaffel like operations.

On reflection, we will understand that the IB,as of now, has its hands tied and is in a position to do little. But it is better that they dont react by giving stupid, imagined reasons. It works out to be counterproductive. In fact, the IB must not have public voice at all. Silent service.


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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 25 Jul 2008 21:45

the do-nothing policy seems to have succeeded in convincing the pak based groups that
their rewards for efforts inside India are not forthcoming , so they could better spend their
finite lifespan trying to take control of pakistan itself , so that inshallah they can talk to
India from a position of equality, behind the i-bomb.

thats why we have tripartite JVs like let+jem+hizbul formed in karachi now like the
tehreek-islami-lashkar-e-mohamadi.

way I seeing it, doing anything but talking up the piss process gives the terror handlers
in TSP a sign that GOI cares two bits for any non-VVIPs life and lets them direct their
wards into India. and they cant touch the VVIPs.

so they can continue to waste their time killing 10 here, 5 there, losing 2 operatives here,
3 there and nothing happens. if they do something really huge like burning a train full
of hindu pilgrims, the hindus come out and kill 20 times that many muslims while Goi
maintains a deft silence. the fence sitters who support them in India are quick to jump
off on India's side when their own homes and shops are being burnt.

or they in Pak can work towards the establishment of the caliphate - they are focussed on this
now....

and pakjarnails have to grit their teeth and smile as they talk piss process with us,
with gorilla gently standing behind a hot poker at the ready. they sit at night and drink,
yearning for the days of conquest but now cannot even dream realistically of taking
jodhpur in 2 weeks forget "for breakfast".

imo this is the long term "solution" to the pak problem that has been chosen
Last edited by Singha on 25 Jul 2008 21:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 25 Jul 2008 21:49

GD, Thats a good spin on incompetence (govt agencies) and compulsions(politicians).

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 25 Jul 2008 21:55

another benefit is it costs GOI no brownie points with the hardcore of IMs,
keeps the "secular" lobby/NGO/HR crowd very happy,
keeps pak's western masters' off GOIs backs
buys us some time against PRC - PRC would prefer fighting india down to the
last paki if possible before sullying its white gloved han-ds
little cost to indian economy taken as a whole....there is no cost of installing
lakhs of cameras as in london (1 for every 14 people)..just hiring and training
a few more Z-cat security. no fancy CSI type gear - a stick and a bag, throw
in the stuff and send by regd post to a lab in Hyd.

it may not have started out as a unified plan but all the rings seem to have
aligned for it.

someone called it a "manpower intensive 2-bit soln to a 2-bit problem(pak)"

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby pradeepe » 25 Jul 2008 22:19

Condolences to those affected.

UNfortunately we will have to get used to these kinds of events. Its the age when even defenses against much deadlier weapons - dirty nukes, chem weapons etc., is shaky at best. And with number of pakis and wannabe pakis inside India, its almost impossible to guarantee security to any entity other than ones which can be barricaded or move behind Z-class security.

I wonder how long the rage and the urge to lash out will last inside me. One solution IMHO, is to hope that the virus/pakiness turns back at the original instigator. Its not that there's any doubt that TSP as an entity has to be threatened before these murders subside. But yes even before that, the solution will start forming when the west and poodledom feels the heat a bit more, quite a bit more.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby enqyoob » 25 Jul 2008 22:33

While I am all in favor of taking out the Pakistani Army establishment which is the Al Qaida aka "militants" aka Pakistan Army of Islam aka "Corps Commanders' Council" aka ISI, this requires a national consensus, because a lot of people will die, many more will be traumatized for life, and the economy will take a severe beating. The comforts of life will disappear for millions, and they may even have to run around on the streets or live in refugee camps while they try to build back up again.

The Chinese and the Americans and the British and the Russians and the French have faced this - and that's why they are the P-5, known to be willing to use their power where necessary, without a lot of :(( :(( .

The majority of the Indian Elite have not faced it, and are not willing to suffer anything of the sort. Frankly, they are perceived worldwide as people who will choose slavery later, over the option of looking ahead, seeing the unpleasant options, and doing what is necessary today to head off the unpleasantness.

This cannot be changed by wishing that brave young men could be sent off with no cost to the rest of us, on impossible missions. The Kargil war, unfortunately, only reinforced this evil habit, and the results were seen shortly thereafter in the Kandahar hijacking. Remember the :(( :(( mobs demanding that the GOI surrender to bring back the hostages? Well.. they did. It was the Will of The People, when it comes right down to it.

You can see what a military draft situation in India will be like, by seeing the response of that crowd. The Elite will be falling over each other trying to get exemptions and special protection for themselves, demanding to send the poor and the underprivileged to die for the Nation.

Varanasi, Jaipur, Delhi, Mumbai, and now Bangalore. Coimbatore/ Kerala were used as testing grounds long ago. Has there been a single massive demonstration (more than 100,000 people) in any of these cities demanding the military option against Pakistan?

Any signs of systematic civil defense/ emergency response preparedness?

Wake me up, please, when this changes. Until then, the worst thing the "e-patriots" do is to whip up communal bigotry, and that to me is cowardice and indiscipline.

IMO, and sorry I have to say this, if there have to be terrorist attacks in India, I would much rather see them occur in the big cities, than in some poor village in Punjab or Rajasthan or J&K. At least a few hundred thousand get woken up to reality each time, for a few days.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Prabu » 25 Jul 2008 22:36

Rupesh wrote:Our intelligence agencies do bust ISI modules regularly and most of it never gets reported. To put fear into the perperators of terror there has to be visible retaliation to terror strikes.Covert Ops dosen't deliver on visibility. Psy Ops play an important role in counter terrorism and that demands visible action, if we can set up a few specialized courts and hang a dozen OGW's of terriorist organisation then only the message of zero tolerance towards terror will be sent. Unfortunately whatever anti-terror activities are carried out are done secretly without any reporting ( maybe due to political compulsions ). This makes us weak in the eyes of ordinary citizens. Its time we call for some visible action against terriorists and their sympathizers ( hanging Afzal Guru will be a step in the right direction )


Well said ! We need strong actions without fearing for Muslim votes ! (or hindu / sikh/ christian votes for that matter !) what our counter terrorism experts are doing ? busy bribing and threatening politicians ?? its all due to our GOI soft approach on religious terrorism. Terrorism from any religion should be crushed. Remember what KPS Gill did in Punjab ? Its just that !
Zero tolerance !! We can afford to have BIG counter inteligence strike force ! after all we call our selfs as P 6 NWS after this deal ! don't we ? Then get the acts together ! Qucikly form and deploy state wise anti naxal / terrorist squad. Co-ordiinate with all state units effectively. share inteligence irrespective of whetehr its congress ruled or BJP ruled ! See, Gujarath ! We don't see any blasts , why ?

CRUSH TERRORISM WITH IRON HAND ! IF REQUIRED ENACT POTA AGAIN ! GIVE SECURITY AGNECIES A FREE HAND TO ACT WITHOUT BIAS !
Last edited by Prabu on 25 Jul 2008 22:58, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby A_Gupta » 25 Jul 2008 22:39

The BR response is as predictable as the GOI response.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Prabu » 25 Jul 2008 22:47

narayanan wrote:While I am all in favor of taking out the Pakistani Army establishment which is the Al Qaida aka "militants" aka Pakistan Army of Islam aka "Corps Commanders' Council" aka ISI, this requires a national consensus, because a lot of people will die, many more will be traumatized for life, and the economy will take a severe beating. The comforts of life will disappear for millions, and they may even have to run around on the streets or live in refugee camps while they try to build back up again.

The Chinese and the Americans and the British and the Russians and the French have faced this - and that's why they are the P-5, known to be willing to use their power where necessary, without a lot of :(( :(( .

The majority of the Indian Elite have not faced it, and are not willing to suffer anything of the sort. Frankly, they are perceived worldwide as people who will choose slavery later, over the option of looking ahead, seeing the unpleasant options, and doing what is necessary today to head off the unpleasantness.

This cannot be changed by wishing that brave young men could be sent off with no cost to the rest of us, on impossible missions. The Kargil war, unfortunately, only reinforced this evil habit, and the results were seen shortly thereafter in the Kandahar hijacking. Remember the :(( :(( mobs demanding that the GOI surrender to bring back the hostages? Well.. they did. It was the Will of The People, when it comes right down to it.

You can see what a military draft situation in India will be like, by seeing the response of that crowd. The Elite will be falling over each other trying to get exemptions and special protection for themselves, demanding to send the poor and the underprivileged to die for the Nation.

Varanasi, Jaipur, Delhi, Mumbai, and now Bangalore. Coimbatore/ Kerala were used as testing grounds long ago. Has there been a single massive demonstration (more than 100,000 people) in any of these cities demanding the military option against Pakistan?

Any signs of systematic civil defense/ emergency response preparedness?

Wake me up, please, when this changes. Until then, the worst thing the "e-patriots" do is to whip up communal bigotry, and that to me is cowardice and indiscipline.

IMO, and sorry I have to say this, if there have to be terrorist attacks in India, I would much rather see them occur in the big cities, than in some poor village in Punjab or Rajasthan or J&K. At least a few hundred thousand get woken up to reality each time, for a few days.


N^3 Yes ! I appreciate your frank views ! We need to strike at the root and it requires consenses ! More frankly, we need Golla's to do it !

We had the oppurtunity when our parlliment was attacked , we missed it !

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Mahendra » 25 Jul 2008 22:53

Will you bite the rabid dog if it bites you? Reason dictates that you send the dog to houristan without coming in close contact with it so that you are protected from rabies. Is the GOI doing it? don't know for sure but it sure is a better way than taking out the ISI HQ over a bomb blast which we can't prove as their handiwork.
Is the GOI full of cowards? maybe it is, are they looking for an excuse for inaction? Perhaps they are. However it is better than JLN asking the unprepared and short on ammo IA to evict the Chinese.
Strike when the Iron is hot and when we are prepared to take losses and still carry the war to its logical conclusion. Sure we can wipe off bakistan from the map but are we prepared to lose a substantial part of our country in excahange? Do we throw all the progress in the past few decades away and rob our youth of the chance of building a strong and prosperous nation?
I am not advocating inaction, just voicing my concern against knee jerk reactions, there are better ways of dealing with Pakis without actually becoming terrorist Pakis ourselves

JM2PGs

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby enqyoob » 25 Jul 2008 22:58

Sorry, Prabhuji, even in 2002, there was little sense in most of India that we may have been minutes from all-out war. That is a recipe for disaster if war starts, because ppl will immediately start destabilizing the country.

The Chinese lost 900,000 in the Korean war, and some huge number in the Vietnam war (against the US) and then against the Vietnamese. They lost a lot of soldiers in the Ussuri River confrontation with the Soviet Union, there is even some speculation that tactical nukes were used.

The Americans lost a million or so in WW2, and the Russians lost over 20 million, mostly civilians.

Is there a comprehension in India of these things, outside the families of soldiers, and the residents of Amritsar?

Frankly, no. This is why we don't scare the Pakis enough for them to shut down their terrorist enterprise. But I think we CAN scare them. In 2002 they thought Indian tanks would be running through Lahore and Rawalpindi.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 25 Jul 2008 23:02

American losses in WWII were ~385000 killed.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Shivani » 25 Jul 2008 23:06

A_Gupta wrote:The BR response is as predictable as the GOI response.


The terrorists are also predictable. Though as first movers, they always have the luxury of deciding the date, time and location of their actions.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 25 Jul 2008 23:14

narayanan wrote:Is there a comprehension in India of these things, outside the families of soldiers, and the residents of Amritsar?

Frankly, no. This is why we don't scare the Pakis enough for them to shut down their terrorist enterprise. But I think we CAN scare them. In 2002 they thought Indian tanks would be running through Lahore and Rawalpindi.


In that case, what is the solution??

N^3 sir, you have been advocating that
a) GoI should neither retaliate directly -- War (to which I agree)
b) nor should covert ops of any kind be used to threaten ISI/Al Q/Terror Central Hq with blasts cos it might lead to increased blasts here within India.

If neither of these are to be used, what can be used to hit-back? Or atleast shown to the people that the GoI is doing something on that front? Isn't it important for the govt to take the people into confidence or prepare them for the long ordeal ahead by explaining some sort of strategy? Because, until then, the "Elite" will keep crooning that lives are being lost and the Govt is doing nothing on this front. This will only add to the apathy on the public front and lead to a situation where people just don't care and give hair-brained ideas like 'Lets go to war and crush them!"

Or as Singha sab said, grit your teeth, grin and put up with it and wait for Bakistan to split into a thousand pieces in a few years (with or without our help).

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby KLNMurthy » 25 Jul 2008 23:25

Rahul M wrote:retaliation to what ?

To our having the gall to exist and prosper, just a litle?

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 25 Jul 2008 23:28

May I state my view?

This is Islamic extremism that Pakistanis started but Pakistanis cannot control. It is a kumbaya type cop out to believe that Pakistan can do things. It is Islamist extremism and the idea that Islamic extremists can keep attacking kafirs has to be removed by direct non-kumbaya cop out attacks directly on the Islamic ideology. Short of that - nothing will work. Blaming Pakistan is pointless. I believe we need to aim much higher. Target the ideology that appeals to Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians.

Pakistan was the first blow struck in favor of islamic exclusivism. And a pretence has been kept up that this collection of Muslim jihadis running out of British India is a "nation"

Enjoy and "vent" on here all you like. I'm done with my venting for now. Hopefully - by the time I wake up tomorrow at least one more Indian will have woken up to reality.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby JwalaMukhi » 25 Jul 2008 23:31

narayanan wrote:Varanasi, Jaipur, Delhi, Mumbai, and now Bangalore. Coimbatore/ Kerala were used as testing grounds long ago. Has there been a single massive demonstration (more than 100,000 people) in any of these cities demanding the military option against Pakistan?


Sirejee, this is an option that is not necessarily needed. The show of strength and hartal business is the option of red brigade, and or politicos when they want to intimidate the government for expressing their needs. The people of India do what is possibly expected of them and excercise their franchise by voting and do not need necessarily to prod the government by intimidation to conduct its duties. The government has flexibility to conduct the state of affairs in the manner that is right and just. People see the government as maai/baap and hence there is no need for the bacchas/bacchis to consistently remind them their duty by crowd gathering antics. If that is the case, then it implies the government is prone to intimidation on street level protests and go by the mob wisdom. Example, when joint air-excercises were opposed by crowd/mob, should it imply that since there were good number of people on the streets, the government to succumb to such pressures.
Also, it is to be remembered that lot of people do not have the luxury to forego their daily bread and butter activities (unless compensated for them taking time out - as done by politicos) to prod and remind the government to do its duties.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 25 Jul 2008 23:46

KV Rao wrote:
Rahul M wrote:retaliation to what ?

To our having the gall to exist and prosper, just a litle?

KV Rao, my post was in response to IB announcement that the blast were retaliatory in nature . you seem to have missed the context.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Anujan » 25 Jul 2008 23:52

shiv wrote:May I state my view?

This is Islamic extremism that Pakistanis started but Pakistanis cannot control. It is a kumbaya type cop out to believe that Pakistan can do things. It is Islamist extremism and the idea that Islamic extremists can keep attacking kafirs has to be removed by direct non-kumbaya cop out attacks directly on the Islamic ideology. Short of that - nothing will work. Blaming Pakistan is pointless.

Shiv-ji,
I respectfully disagree. It is true that short of attacking and eradicating the Islamist ghazi tendency, lasting peace is not possible.

BUT (a big but), the entire state apparatus of Pakistan is devoted towards (a) Spreading Ghazi idealogy, (b) Training Ghazi minions (c) Funding Ghazi minions (d) Planning strikes by Ghazi minions.

Is it true that Pakis are not in complete control of the islamic extremists ? yes. But isn't it also true that they actively recruit, shelter, fund, train and plan attacks ?

Pakis are like the owner of rabid dogs who feed, train, breed and shelter them. The dogs bite us most of the time and bite them once in a while. Dont shoot the pakis because they dont have the leash to the dogs is a bad argument. Shoot the pakis in the head first, we will deal with the dogs later.

Edit: Shiv-ji, I know my examples and analogies are bad. I wrote the post out of anger and anguish.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby pradeepe » 26 Jul 2008 00:02

A finely honed survival instinct makes most Indian's hesitant to rising up in protest every time such an event occurs. Other than the usual "ayyo papam" with head willfully bent and looking down, lest they incur "fate's" wrath themselves, they will do nothing but go on with their lives. If its not me or my immediate loved ones, then I am a survivor, I'll will mourn the dead, but make a silent prayer thanking the almighty for sparing me.

We havent reached that point yet where we come out to say, enough is enough. UNfortunatley it seems to me that it will take a lot more to finally shake us out of this state.

South India is fast making up for being callous to the problem.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby KLNMurthy » 26 Jul 2008 00:27

Rahul M wrote:
KV Rao wrote:
Rahul M wrote:retaliation to what ?

To our having the gall to exist and prosper, just a litle?

KV Rao, my post was in response to IB announcement that the blast were retaliatory in nature . you seem to have missed the context.


Not really, my reaction (having just found out about the blasts) was a kind of frustrated allusion (avoidable in hindsight) to the wolf-and-the-lamb story, meaning that the perpetrators can be counted on to find something or the other to "retaliate" against our people.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby KLNMurthy » 26 Jul 2008 00:33

By the way, the news report in Deccan Herald referred to some 'refugee camps'. Can someone enlighten as to what these are? thanks.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby vsudhir » 26 Jul 2008 00:45

There's a totally chankianly outwordly scenario doing some rounds in conspiratorial fora. Gist is this: Bharat sarkar is spinning these terrorist acts as propagated by BDs and is preparing the grounds for evacuating BD illegals en mass using the security bogey. Same as the next 9/11 will do with Hispanic illegals inside massaland. or so the 'reaosning' goes. The allusion to 'refugee areas' will only strengthen such wild theories, IMO.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Jayram » 26 Jul 2008 01:37

What concerns me (and leads to conspiracy theroies) is the appranent lack of breakthrus in the investigation of these incidents over time. This is what the 6th or 7th occurance in the past few years and we have still not managed to bring to book or have a high profile trial of any of the previous criminals. This is the most important failing rather than striking back at TSP or a Pak gernal or anything else. A systematic investigation leading to arrests followed by trial and conviction of the people behind these blasts is the greatest failing of GOI rather than any percieved or real security lapse in letting this happen. See the orginal BSE blasts(Dawood ones) - the police knew of the general modus operandi and had a very good handle on who the major players were behind it quickly enough. But it has been many many months from the Delhi Divali blasts to the Bombay Train blasts to Hyderabad to Jaipur to <Add your city Here> and still nothing...
We either dont care( which I dont belive) or dont have institutional/intelligence resources set up to go after these ******** yet. It is inconviable to me that GOI babus have not defined a systematic response to these problems. When will it be apparent that the usual CBI/RAW/<add acrnonym here> is not working?
We need to start by solving ONE blast case to the statisfaction of the general public. If it means going after these guys abroad isralie stlye and bring them back to trial to India then thats what needs to happen. But solve one and do it quickly even if you have do it extra judically..
JMT

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 26 Jul 2008 01:57

edited.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby enqyoob » 26 Jul 2008 01:58

N^3 sir, you have been advocating that
a) GoI should neither retaliate directly -- War (to which I agree)


Not at all - I strongly disagree. I see that YOU want to win the war without inconveniencing the general public, and that is exactly the problem that I cite. We grew up expecting to have to fight the Chinese army and Pakistani mass-murderer hordes in our streets, and trained to do so. Can you say the same of today's generation in India? How many have NCC training? How many can even carry a rifle around for 3 hours in the summer heat without fainting, much less know when and how to fire without breaking their collar bones?

I think the GOI should inform the people calmly and clearly why war is needed, why it will cost a huge amount and set the economic progress and social gains back by at least a decade, but why the alternative is slavery in the long run.

Then there should be massive Disaster Preparedness and Response development, in every city and town. TSP should see very clearly that India expects to be in an all-out war, and the Indian public is getting ready to face that.

The 2002 buildup was very very frightening to the Pakis, and even the world community took it seriously. But all said and done, that was a knee-jerk reaction. With all respect, I don't think an attack that scared the Dilli billies in the Parliament and woke up some of them, is in any way a worse provocation than machine-gunning little children in their mothers' arms in Kaluchak.

The 2002 buildup was done wrong because the GOI made no attempt to get the PEOPLE ready. We did not even know what was going on, except for vague reports of long trains with tanks and trucks heading north-west. There is no way that a modern war can be kept confined to the border areas - every town and city will feel the war directly, not just when the telegrams come.

So I think the war against terror cannot be won unless civilized nations are willing to put EVERYTHING on the line to defend freedom and civilization, and until TSP is broken up.

I am not an advocate of waiting the TSP to break itself up. Of course I detest all arguments to start India down the terrorism road because that is a cowardly and ultimately self-destructive course.

So, to summarize, I think the right response is a general mobilization of the population, for civil defense, first-aid training, digging air-raid shelters, fill up blood-banks, store long-term storable food and fuel, and train young people in military basics, anticipating a draft. Also, send military production facilities into war mode, and cut out the nonsense.

No diplomatic overtures to TSP needed. Their spies will report back on the exact level of seriousness in the preparation, and what that implies.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 26 Jul 2008 02:12

Very shocking indeed to hear this happen to Bangalore, that is not heard of such attacks. The infiltration has reached "pensioner's paradise" and IT sections of India.

First of all, apprehending the criminals is important., and put them in jail. BTW, IT city should have more cameras installed at all points. Again, people are slightly becoming careless, in the sense gone are the days in Bangalore, that people care about their surroundings, whats happening. Even a dog barks, people then had an idea, when it barked., when it wagged. I am surprised no one saw the criminals planting these attacks.

Govt. should subsidize security cameras and setups, to all private shops, and building owners, so that they are mandated to install them for monitor, and has a record of events for 1 week. Most of the crimes in advanced countries are given a big hand by security cameras. Bangalore tech kids should build such systems in a jiffy at peanuts cost.

I hope our CBI sleuths are already on the job.. and are not wasting their time.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby BijuShet » 26 Jul 2008 02:31

narayanan wrote:
...
So, to summarize, I think the right response is a general mobilization of the population, for civil defense, first-aid training, digging air-raid shelters, fill up blood-banks, store long-term storable food and fuel, and train young people in military basics, anticipating a draft. Also, send military production facilities into war mode, and cut out the nonsense.

No diplomatic overtures to TSP needed. Their spies will report back on the exact level of seriousness in the preparation, and what that implies.


If and when Govt of India makes up its mind to go to war and Pakis with the rest of world are convinced of the seriousness of our intent, there will be the drama of peaceful NGOs protesting this decision. A'dhoti types would call this aggressiveness as hindu fascism. Crowds will be gathered to protest such acts of violence by followers of Mohandas K. Gandhi. The business community especially ones that make their revenue in non Indian currency will ask govt to rethink its decision. There will be articles in all international media talking of war mongering by Indians. SD and others will issue warnings against travel to India and also try to pass some kind of sanctions against us. In all of this Pakis will utter some sweet nothings in public and put on a sorry face in the world capitals for their past misdeeds. The UN will warn us against unilateral action without its authorization and also warn of the nuclear flashpoint. The Unkil will offer some big carrot of a deal and/or offer the promise of the elusive seat at the high table. With all this ongoing drama, the Govt of India will buckle. Us arm chair rakshaks would have spent a lot of hot air on the scenarios threads and life would go back to normal. I think we need to define an Indian version of Paki dictator cycle for every terrorist incident on mother India.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby KLNMurthy » 26 Jul 2008 02:38

narayanan wrote:
N^3 sir, you have been advocating that
a) GoI should neither retaliate directly -- War (to which I agree)



I think the GOI should inform the people calmly and clearly why war is needed, why it will cost a huge amount and set the economic progress and social gains back by at least a decade, but why the alternative is slavery in the long run.

Then there should be massive Disaster Preparedness and Response development, in every city and town. TSP should see very clearly that India expects to be in an all-out war, and the Indian public is getting ready to face that.

...

So, to summarize, I think the right response is a general mobilization of the population, for civil defense, first-aid training, digging air-raid shelters, fill up blood-banks, store long-term storable food and fuel, and train young people in military basics, anticipating a draft. Also, send military production facilities into war mode, and cut out the nonsense.

No diplomatic overtures to TSP needed. Their spies will report back on the exact level of seriousness in the preparation, and what that implies.


Seconding that, Narayanan...

We know how things went down in 1971. We started by picking up a burden of about 50% surcharge on the cheapest mail--on which virtually everyone depended for communication since there was practically no telephone service--for supporting the refugees for nearly 9 months or so. Looking at the surcharge stamp with emaciated bent over refugees in lungis, everyone knew that we were each paying a price for the neighbor's depredations. At a time of no internet and negligible TV, GOI got everyone--educated or not--to gird their loins and grit their teeth to face the enemy and do what was needed. The PM's midnight speech Dec 3 was masterly in retrospect, sternly telling the nation that everyone has to be prepared for a bruising war of attrition (a word I heard then for the first time) in which there may be no easy victory.

I think it's called leadership. Indira Gandhi, for all her numerous flaws, had it.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 26 Jul 2008 02:57

the difference between 71 and now is that the nuclear aspect precludes any long time preparation by the nation for war. any conflict has to start without warning to pakistan and unfortunately that also means that the common people also has to be kept in the dark. op parakram failed not because GoI failed to get the people behind it, but because mobilisation wasn't fast enough. in the light of cold start, we won't get a six month warning before a war errupts.
getting the people to understand the necessity of this conflict is a pre-requisite in the absence of a big and visible attack like the one on the parliament (no, attacks on commoners don't count) but that has to be done in a general sense, or we will lose the element of surprise, something we can ill afford to, in case of a nuclear conflict.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby enqyoob » 26 Jul 2008 03:10

I didn't say we SHOULD go to war.. just prepare for it. If and when it really becomes necessary to do it, then the preparation time is that much shorter. This was the tactic used at POK-2 - dig every day for a year, and no will wonder what you are doing on any one day.

In this case the Pakis will know that this is the plan, and of course GOI will deny that it has any plans to invade TSP - just tell the people to recognize that we are under attack, we need to prepare for emergencies, that lot of suffering and damage are being caused and can be expected, some nations don't like us advancing and want to destroy us, and we can't let that happen...

I didn't say anything about troop movements either. Point is to get the PUBLIC prepared and conscious, like the stamp showing the refugee. The rest will happen by itself. The DDM and the WKKs and the anti-Indians will do it to themselves.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby KLNMurthy » 26 Jul 2008 03:30

narayanan wrote:I didn't say we SHOULD go to war.. just prepare for it. If and when it really becomes necessary to do it, then the preparation time is that much shorter. This was the tactic used at POK-2 - dig every day for a year, and no will wonder what you are doing on any one day.

In this case the Pakis will know that this is the plan, and of course GOI will deny that it has any plans to invade TSP - just tell the people to recognize that we are under attack, we need to prepare for emergencies, that lot of suffering and damage are being caused and can be expected, some nations don't like us advancing and want to destroy us, and we can't let that happen...

I didn't say anything about troop movements either. Point is to get the PUBLIC prepared and conscious, like the stamp showing the refugee. The rest will happen by itself. The DDM and the WKKs and the anti-Indians will do it to themselves.


Maybe having had a generation of leadership that just talk and say things without really meaning them, or say one thing while meaning something else entirely--had the effect of making citizens lose the memory of what it might be like for leaders to mean what they said--at least on enough ocassions to be credible.

Right now, no one, but no one, believes that we are serious when we do all that belligerent talk-talk; therefore they are encouraged to keep attacking and hurting us. If we are able to convey a message of seriousness, they will actually think twice before launching the next attack. The message of seriousness doesn't just come from an instantly gratifying sexy surgical strike with streaking fighter planes and all, but can also be sent by showing that we are determined to do the hard work and pay the price to eliminate the threat once and for all.

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 26 Jul 2008 04:06

Image
look at the times.
Image

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Re: Blasts in Bangalore - News and Discussions

Postby KLNMurthy » 26 Jul 2008 05:00

speculating on motives for the blasts...

Communal riots in Bangalore on a scale similar to Gujarat '02 would be a very high value outcome for the enemy. To his way of thinking, having a BJP govt. in power aids such an outcome. This attack, with its relatively low level of damage, could be in the nature of a 'trial balloon' for this larger project.


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