Blasts in Ahmedabad

Sumeet
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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Sumeet » 31 Jul 2008 23:33

Rahul that will be a good idea. I have never read chanakya's artha sastra but will when i can get hands on it.

others who responded I have heard arguments both for and against. And personally I have always had a vacillating point of view on this topic. Will go forward and make more posts if Rahul M's idea is accepted by other mods who have opposed discussion that brings in religion.

no more OT posts from me.

Sumeet
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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Sumeet » 31 Jul 2008 23:37

shiv wrote:
Sumeet wrote:Moo Moo solution my refer to an idea being preached by MuthuswamyM, a former member of our forum whom shiv banned and N^3 accused of treason since he has advocating genocide of IMs.

hence moo moo solution is not acceptable to any civilized society..


Not just genocide. Sedition and an Indian Armed Forces coup to topple the government. On BR that is a bit much.



oops Shiv, I totally forgot it had other components too. And he thought we were ignorant for not accepting his bright ideas.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby RayC » 01 Aug 2008 00:06

OK. I got Shiv's PM.

Thanks Shiv.

Narayanan is right. Moo Moo psychology is definitely out.

But you would not be ''kicked out". You would be merely ''shown the door''. ;)

We are trying to get sophisticated. :rotfl:

Your cooperation will help!

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Rahul M » 01 Aug 2008 00:41

Sumeet wrote:Rahul that will be a good idea. I have never read chanakya's artha sastra but will when i can get hands on it.

others who responded I have heard arguments both for and against. And personally I have always had a vacillating point of view on this topic. Will go forward and make more posts if Rahul M's idea is accepted by other mods who have opposed discussion that brings in religion.

no more OT posts from me.

Sumeet, your post is the perfect example why we should have some thread of that kind !

please let me elaborate as to why that is so !

we talk about discussion on Ancient India's social and military thinking and practice and immediately the word that comes into our mind is religion.

Now substitute greek, roman, egyptian or babylonian for Indian. would religion merit even a footnote in that discussion ??
well, it just might, if it is lucky ! so why should we bring in religion when discussing on the same topic in the Indian context ??
of course, you might argue that in India religion is an inextricable part of life and you can't ignore it. but was religion really so important to our ancients that they couldn't do without it even while expanding and expounding on topics like politics, administration, history, law and foreign policy, often for the first time in human history ?

religion or dharma was only used to set the rudimentary guidelines, beyond that, knowledge and applicability took its own course.
It is both possible and desirable to discuss the said topics on BRF without bringing in religion, if we are to get a correct appraisal of our place in world history as a civilization, of past but especially that of the future.


If anyone doesn't have any objection, I'll split off some of the earlier posts in this thread to create a new one.

regards,
Rahul.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby enqyoob » 01 Aug 2008 01:44

But you would not be ''kicked out". You would be merely ''shown the door''.

Shocking! Shocking. RayC, I NEVER said anyone would be "kicked out". MOI?? :(( ALWAYS respectful and welcoming of all postors, that's me, as u know... Tolerance and Courtesy Personified. TCP.

I only said: "Your A** will get kicked out". And of course, not by me, I was just stating an observed (and entertaining) phenomenon. 8)

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby SwamyG » 01 Aug 2008 01:59

Rahul M wrote:we talk about discussion on Ancient India's social and military thinking and practice and immediately the word that comes into our mind is religion.

Now substitute greek, roman, egyptian or babylonian for Indian. would religion merit even a footnote in that discussion ??
well, it just might, if it is lucky ! so why should we bring in religion when discussing on the same topic in the Indian context ??
of course, you might argue that in India religion is an inextricable part of life and you can't ignore it. but was religion really so important to our ancients that they couldn't do without it even while expanding and expounding on topics like politics, administration, history, law and foreign policy, often for the first time in human history ?

religion or dharma was only used to set the rudimentary guidelines, beyond that, knowledge and applicability took its own course.
It is both possible and desirable to discuss the said topics on BRF without bringing in religion, if we are to get a correct appraisal of our place in world history as a civilization, of past but especially that of the future.


If anyone doesn't have any objection, I'll split off some of the earlier posts in this thread to create a new one.

regards,
Rahul.


Rahul:
Just glance at this book: Battle: A History of Combat and Culture and decide why religion comes into picture when one talks about Ancient Military in India.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Pulikeshi » 01 Aug 2008 02:11

Rahul M wrote:
religion or dharma was only used to set the rudimentary guidelines, beyond that, knowledge and applicability took its own course.[b]


Rahul,

Fundamentally, you cannot translate Religion to Dharma.
Actually, there is no known word for religion native to India aka Bharat.

As far as BRF and the policy to not discuss religion this is a private board and it is your right.
IMHO you cannot disucss India without discussing Dharma, but one need not discuss Religion either as they are not the same.

Kaushal is as always right about the "Hindus" - but it will take time for Indics to understand their own ancient legacy and reacquaint themselves with the native point of view.
Perhaps, until that day we will not see such discussion on this board as well.
That said in fairness, we have discussed Religion as well as Dharma on this board - even under the mercy of summary execution by the bradmins :mrgreen:

My last post on this topic. I have no intention to disturb the peace of this private board or discuss Religion for that matter.
I for one see the terrorist situation more from a geo-political light than from a religious light.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby svinayak » 01 Aug 2008 02:13

Geo-Politics also has a religious component

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Rahul M » 01 Aug 2008 02:25

SwamyG wrote:
Rahul M wrote:we talk about discussion on Ancient India's social and military thinking and practice and immediately the word that comes into our mind is religion.
.................................

religion or dharma was only used to set the rudimentary guidelines, beyond that, knowledge and applicability took its own course.
It is both possible and desirable to discuss the said topics on BRF without bringing in religion, if we are to get a correct appraisal of our place in world history as a civilization, of past but especially that of the future.


If anyone doesn't have any objection, I'll split off some of the earlier posts in this thread to create a new one.

regards,
Rahul.


Rahul:
Just glance at this book: Battle: A History of Combat and Culture and decide why religion comes into picture when one talks about Ancient Military in India.

since I don't have the book by my side and the link provides only a covering description, my understanding of the author's points might be limited.
as far as I could glean from that link, it's the author's premise that culture determines the course of warfare in a larger way than technology does. is that really different from what I wrote ??
religion or dharma was only used to set the rudimentary guidelines, beyond that, knowledge and applicability took its own course.

there are aspects of Indian warfare other than the dharmic one, IMHO.
dharma provided the foundation, but the superstructure is much more complex and intricate than just the foundation. if we ignore that, we would be losing a very valuable part of our heritage.

But, of course, if we are sure that we already know what is there to know on this topic, I would stop right here !!

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Rahul M » 01 Aug 2008 02:35

Pulikeshi wrote:
Rahul M wrote:
religion or dharma was only used to set the rudimentary guidelines, beyond that, knowledge and applicability took its own course.[b]


Rahul,

Fundamentally, you cannot translate Religion to Dharma.
Actually, there is no known word for religion native to India aka Bharat.

As far as BRF and the policy to not discuss religion this is a private board and it is your right.
IMHO you cannot disucss India without discussing Dharma, but one need not discuss Religion either as they are not the same.

Pulikeshi, thanks for that clarification. I am aware of the difference b/w dharma and religion but chose to ignore that in the post in order to avoid sounding pedantic. most people here do know of the difference w/o explicitly mentioning it every time.
that being said, I wonder if educated Indians aren't actually hardwired to do a bit of equal-equal b/w those two terms, even if sub-consciously. can we actually discuss dharma as it applies to India's war history w/o bringing in religion ??
what do you think ?

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby surinder » 01 Aug 2008 02:56

SwamyG wrote:Just glance at this book: Battle: A History of Combat and Culture ...


This book continually, without fail, refers to India as South Asia: Culture of South Asia, Kings of South Asia, Alexander's attack on south asia. While China is called China, India is called South Asia.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby harbans » 01 Aug 2008 03:35

I am sorry, but this is absoluty OT and only in context with a few prior posts:
Request admins to have a topic on Shruti Dharma. The confusion between Shruti and Smriti is so endemic through the web amongst others and Indian posters. Example, people of other faiths nail Indian verses from Manusmritii. How many Indians today understand the difference between the smriti and shruti doctrines? The only doctrines i consider relevent to Hindu Dharma and India are Shruti based. The Upanishads, Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita. These 3 alone are India original. Frankly these 3 are the ultimate doctrines relevent to India and Hindu Dharma. Bharat Rakshak would do well to open an exclusive thread debate on these Shruti doctrines to educate Indians as well as foreigners who vistit this site.

Just my very humble 2P worth. Admins please don't mind this suggestion and being OT.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Pulikeshi » 01 Aug 2008 04:13

Rahul M wrote:...
I wonder if educated Indians aren't actually hardwired to do a bit of equal-equal b/w those two terms, even if sub-consciously. can we actually discuss dharma as it applies to India's war history w/o bringing in religion ??
what do you think ?


I think you maybe correct on the equal-equal bit.

However, like I said before. Terrorism in India - in my mind - is due to geo-political issues.
Acharya is right that geo-politics indeed has a cultural and religious component to it among others. But, GOI has come to understand that, so they indulge in complacence due to the decadence of the majority community. Here I agree with Sumeet on what the system has become today, while I argue his interpretations of the original Varna system.

One contrary point on all this:
TSP among others have continuously tried to make it a Religious issue, We'd be accepting their view if we go down that path...
Whereas it is my belief that even if TSP were Buddhist (ala Sri Lanka), we'd still be having issues with them given geography and hence their propensity to become a client state.

On if it is possible to discuss Indian war history - I think it will be useful exercise is a moderator polices it for aberration.
Especially from the angle of Dharma. Because we have for centuries fought battles with an altered frame or reference.
This has happened to the extent that today we do not even remember how we got here in the first place.
We need to know ourselves before we know our enemies. Perhaps knowing oneself will make you see the enemy in a new light.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Bade » 01 Aug 2008 05:17

One contrary point on all this:
TSP among others have continuously tried to make it a Religious issue, We'd be accepting their view if we go down that path...
Whereas it is my belief that even if TSP were Buddhist (ala Sri Lanka), we'd still be having issues with them given geography and hence their propensity to become a client state.

Shakuni from MB fame was from Kandahar too :) There is something in the water there that makes them play petty politics and end up shooting themselves in the process. Fortunately in the good old days of MahaBharatha the world was not globalized and the local superpowers were powerful chieftains with only localized reach, limiting the damage. But we cannot have a Shakuni empire survive next door in modern times when we are a local power only.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2008 06:39

harbans wrote:I am sorry, but this is absoluty OT and only in context with a few prior posts:
Request admins to have a topic on Shruti Dharma. The confusion between Shruti and Smriti is so endemic through the web amongst others and Indian posters. Example, people of other faiths nail Indian verses from Manusmritii. How many Indians today understand the difference between the smriti and shruti doctrines? The only doctrines i consider relevent to Hindu Dharma and India are Shruti based. The Upanishads, Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita. These 3 alone are India original. Frankly these 3 are the ultimate doctrines relevent to India and Hindu Dharma. Bharat Rakshak would do well to open an exclusive thread debate on these Shruti doctrines to educate Indians as well as foreigners who vistit this site.

Just my very humble 2P worth. Admins please don't mind this suggestion and being OT.


This only adds a layer of complexity to the subject of the difference between dharma and religion. On another list in which flamewars do not occur I came as close to having a flamewar as possible with a person (of unknown nationality) who chose to make certain judgements of "Hinduism" (whatever that may be??) and got really mad when I pointed out the difference between dharma and religion. Never mind. Not here. Not now. Maybe on my blog :)

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby John Snow » 01 Aug 2008 07:16

In the context of terrorism in India, religion is secondary as more and more "home grown" aka Indian citizens links are found.

The concept of Dharma takes precedence. The context "dharma" as understood in the notion of Law and order, and duty.
The duty of the rulers and adminstration is to enforce Law and order and by swearing to the office they are duty bound to protect the law abiding citizens and punish the law breakers.
In nutshell this is how great countries and socities work.

If you sell drugs in KSA it is irrelavant if you are sunni shia you are executed.

In india you can play games with law.
That is the crux of the problem, you can't break the law of the land and at the same time claim protection from it. But in India it is done easily (antipatory bail)

Sorry we have long ways to go and the problem and solution are with in not with uncle aunty or TSP.
The fish is rotting from the head.

Future is bleak but we will just limp along, never walk tall because of stinky leadership.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Kakkaji » 01 Aug 2008 07:37

shiv wrote:
Kaushal wrote:I am slowly coming around to the view that the Indic (euphemism in this instance for hindu) is paralyzed by fear of the (jihadi ) Muslim.


Yes and I believe there is both a remote and a relatively recent genesis to this. I have written about (my views on the) the relatively recent genesis and its effects in an article that I have sent for BRM.


Nothing new. Mahatma Gandhi said it several decades ago. Here is what he said:

"There is no doubt in my mind that in the majority of quarrels the Hindus come out second best. But my own experience confirms the opinion that the Mussalman as a rule is a bully, and the Hindu as a rule is a coward. I have noticed this in railway trains, on public roads, and in the quarrels which I had the privilege of settling. Need the Hindu blame the Mussalman for his cowardice? Where there are cowards, there will always be bullies. They say that in Saharanpur the Mussalmans looted houses, broke open safes and, in one case, a Hindu woman's modesty was outraged. Whose fault was this? Mussalmans can offer no defence for the execrable conduct, it is true. But I, as a Hindu, am more ashamed of Hindu cowardice than I am angry at the Mussalman bullying. Why did not the owners of the houses looted die in the attempt to defend their possessions? Where were the relatives of the outraged sister at the time of the outrage? Have they no account to render of themselves? My non-violence does not admit of running away from danger and leaving dear ones unprotected. Between violence and cowardly flight, I can only prefer violence to cowardice."

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2008 07:40

John Snow wrote: you can't break the law of the land and at the same time claim protection from it.


This is a quotable quote.

In India you can and do break the law time and time again and claim protection on some grounds or the other.

In India there is a law (in some places) that urinating in public attracts a fine. But people urinate in public all the time and claim that "cold weather" or "diabetes" makes it impossible for them to do otherwise. We make laws that we cannot enforce, and we then reach a general agreement that laws are all flexible depending on the context and say that a law enforcement apparatus also need to be flexible.

We then mix up dharma with the question and dilute and disempower our laws more "it is adharmic to make an old man, a diabetic to boot, to suffer by asking him to pay a fine for urinating in public. Elders are to be respected. Why not catch all the young men who urinate here?" is the sort of dilemma that law enforcement is faced with.

Muslims have their own version of this but when Muslims bend the law their way, we protest more. The reason why people on here seem to protest "Hindu/Muslim" differentiation on this thread is that most people instinctively realise that every man and his uncle are bending Indian laws.

But there is a small sub-text that we miss by doing that. Hindu anger results from seeing the Muslims flout the law. Muslim grievances result from seeing the Hindu flout the law. In both cases, not only is the law weak, but both Hindus and Muslims have ensured that law enforcement IS weak to suit their requirements.

Yesterday morning I had a great laugh. I went to a local shop to buy something and saw small clay pots on sale - unusual for that shop. I asked "What are these pots for". Without batting an eyelid, the shop owners son (whom I have known since he was 4 years old) said "Oh those - they are for bomb making". It was a joke that we both enjoyed. I related this story to my American nephews who are visiting. They were shocked and said that it would probably be dangerous to "share a joke" of this sort in the US.

But all Americans accept restriction of their personal freedoms more than Indians do. The quid pro quo is better security.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Karan Dixit » 01 Aug 2008 07:59

The issue of terrorism is not a simple matter of gray and white. The shades are made of many complex colors. The main source of terrorism in India is Pakistan. They have started preying on misguided Muslim Indian youths but the source nevertheless is Pakistan. Pakistan is responsible for any terror attack on India whether it is done via conventional weapons or WMD.

In any given situation when you have a collection of problems, you prioritize your problems and then act to solve them in the order of priority. Even as Indianization of jihad is happening, we still have two endpoints, ISI and the misguided Muslim youths of India. Taking out either one of these two endpoints will ensure reduction if not the elimination of jihad activities in India.

That brings us back to the original point of law and order in India. Many members have already touched this issue in depth. So, I need to end my post here.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Pulikeshi » 01 Aug 2008 08:52

shiv wrote:We make laws that we cannot enforce, and we then reach a general agreement that laws are all flexible depending on the context and say that a law enforcement apparatus also need to be flexible.

We then mix up dharma with the question and dilute and disempower our laws more "it is adharmic to make an old man, a diabetic to boot, to suffer by asking him to pay a fine for urinating in public. Elders are to be respected. Why not catch all the young men who urinate here?" is the sort of dilemma that law enforcement is faced with.


The muddleheadedness of moral relatively!

Dharma would dictate that the greater good is to not urinate in public.
Dharma would dictate following the letter of the law.

This “muddling” of Dharma and “relativity” in interpretation of law is the source of all the problems inflicting Indian society today.
This has been done by all of us. Young or old, if you do the crime you do the time!

Culture is set top down. If the politicians, leaders, police, lawyers and others are made to follow the letter of the law and not perform “relative” interpretations either through malice or through neglect, then we would have taken an incremental step towards a better society.

Hindus are suffering from four fallacies imho:

1. There is safety in numbers and thus they will not come after me.
2. If we are peaceful to them and leave them alone, they will leave us alone.
3. We have existed forever (Sanathan), therefore we will remain so forever
4. Dharma allows them to let Adharma go unchallenged!

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2008 09:05

Pulikeshi wrote:
Hindus are suffering from four fallacies imho:

1. There is safety in numbers and thus they will not come after me.
2. If we are peaceful to them and leave them alone, they will leave us alone.
3. We have existed forever (Sanathan), therefore we will remain so forever
4. Dharma allows them to let Adharma go unchallenged!


Deeply insightful - and a glaringly obvious reason why we need to look at Hindu attitudes as much as "Islamism" that we have finished discussing to death. In fact that is what was started in those now dead "religion" threads.

Raju

Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Raju » 01 Aug 2008 09:08

the solution that comes up thus is:

1) Renounce dharma or dilute it.

2) Accept restrictions on freedoms as a means to curbing terror.
Just like the americans have done.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Karan Dixit » 01 Aug 2008 09:25

Courage is attitude. Very well said Shiv.

Also many people do not realize that but courage can be self taught. Draw a line and do everything in your power to defend that line and at any cost. Constantly make an effort to broaden that boundary line.

It can start with projecting the correct body language and standing up for your culture and value systems. Pretty soon you will realize that in order to stand up your beliefs and culture, you have to learn the art of combat.

Prepare for the worst and hope that when the moment comes, Lord Krishna will guide your chariot. That is all we can do.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2008 09:33

Pulikeshi wrote:Dharma would dictate that the greater good is to not urinate in public.


Have to disagree here. But my argument will merely show how much garbage can be thrown up by allowing discussion on what dharma means to every goddam individual in India.

On the question of urinating in public, dharma says nothing in a nation in which most urination is out in the open. Dharma in fact rules in favor of not allowing a man to suffer from holding back what is considered in Ayurvedic terms as waste matter that is fundamentally toxic to the body.

This is a digression but we have to decide between applying flexible dharma that can be concocted by anyone in favor of pointing out that dharma means adhering to the laws of the land. We have not done that. However the laws of the land have always been undermined for political expediency.

And things are sometimes so bad that we "the educated" fail to sift reality from appearances and reach empirical conclusions. Let me cite a typical example. A green traffic light turns amber for a brief second before turning red. Vehicles keep going through the amber light, and few vehicles - especially buses ram through for a second or two after the light turns red.

A policemen is nearby and the sahib in car curses the policeman for not doing his duty and stopping those buses from going past the red light. "Police incompetence. That policeman has been bribed!" is what we conclude. But very few people see that there is nothing the policeman can do. it is a wonder that anyone stops at all for a red light. The policeman has no power other than to write down the number of maybe one or two vehicles when 10 vehicles have jumped a red light. If they take action - they have to send notices and collect fines - in a corrupt system in which police clerks skim off money so that the police station has no paper and policemen sometimes have to buy their own paper to write reports.

Democratic India is a nation in which every man is a raja, and the policeman is a low-down chowkidar who must follow orders. If I am in a hurry to go to my office - he must allow me to pass even if I jump a red light. But after that if a man in a cart obstructs me (legally because he has seen a green light) the policeman should "do his duty" and summarily thrash the vendor. If this doesn't happen we whine 'india is going to dogs!"

And we expect this police force to fight terrorism? We want laws for terrorist. Not for ourselves.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Pulikeshi » 01 Aug 2008 09:59

shiv wrote:Have to disagree here. But my argument will merely show how much garbage can be thrown up by allowing discussion on what dharma means to every goddam individual in India.


Shiv,

Will take a lot of time to explain, and perhaps that time is yet to come.
Perhaps it will happen over a peg of Talisker someday...
Perhaps this forum has to shed some dogma before it gets there!

Your interpretation of Dharma is incorrect!
However, that is the case given our "western" educated disconnection with Sanathana Dharma.

Dharma that is specified by Sruthi is immutable.
The shajaa Dharma (law of the land) specified in Smrithi (yes like in Manu Smrithi which is one such interpretation) can be changed periodically.
However, it remains rigid over that period to the extent of crime and punishment.
Your personal Dharma has nothing to do with either of the above. There are no "fuzzy" interpretations allowed!
Dharma exists to protect society. Sri Krishna bears witness to protect this Dharma.

Your examples are more to do with what a "crowd" can get away with....
In this India is suffering from is a large population (density) which is cantankerous.
Compared to China, where the population is pliable and has only the ability to work, eat & shop.

That said, one way they beat down crime in NY - they took out the lowly crimes first to set an example. Like the guy jaywalking, pickpocketing, pan handling, etc. That sets the bar higher.
Perhaps that lesson can be imbibed and applied in India.

PS: I'd agree with you that Dharma is confusing to the conversation if you had said, because todays India is secular, Dharma (as law) does not apply to the citizens of India and they are governed by Common Law. Perhaps, that is the reflection of this forum as well.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby shaardula » 01 Aug 2008 10:12

dixit sir, not really clear. that pakistan is the main source. there are p-no of countries with no boundaries with pakistan nor associations. yet similar if not as grave conditions exist in them.

getting back, i think the two door theory is very interesting.
there is data that poor muslims get involved. there is also data that nonpoor muslims get involved. but from this it cannot be concluded that entire populations are involved. but what is more significant in these data is that irrespective of who is involved, the madrasa and the mosque are always involved either directly or indirectly.

a lot of people take the common door to the c-room. some more take the madrasa door to the m-room. problem is not m-room itself, but the special chamber in the m-room. greater problem is some who initially take the common door, later on seek out the shortcut to the special chamber in m-room. now why do people in c-room end up in the special room? simply because it is there. and that need not have been.

and then there is the question as to why people are perturbed from c-room to begin with?
two things:
#1. irrespective of the room, people are always perturbed. they are always restless.
#2. there are actually p-doors, not just two. apart from c-door there are actually p-other doors like the m-door. for example, brf is one door, vedanta is another door, farming is another door, marxvaada, latest electronic gadgetry so on ... many of these are problematic just like the m-door. but m-door has greater reach and impact than almost anyother door. and many of them are not feasible or profitable enterprises unlike m-door.

those in c-room are always seeking exit. are always restless. one door or the other they are seeking. what two door theory was saying was create an environment where the restless particles equilibriate towards non problematic doors.

two door theory is interesting because i think it pines that there was a small window in time when access to this problematic chamber room could have been blocked. but that window of freshness and idealism was squandered. now it is late and involves too much pain. but somehow that chamber has to be locked. the only question is how and how palatable-y.
Last edited by shaardula on 01 Aug 2008 10:17, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby shaardula » 01 Aug 2008 10:12

islam sits on that sweet spot between civilization and barbarism, when most other systems have, in their own hubris, migrated towards one or the other side of the fence, perhaps to their own detriment. two door theory was hinting that, atleast locally, there was a time and a chance to push islam on this side of the c-space. this pushing itself is an act of aggression, even if 'enlightened'. but the point is pure migration is theoretical. in reality barbarism is a very existential trait.

the point is, whatever you believe in is fine. the fundamental question is, what are you going to do about what you believe in? the import being only those who 'do' will last. all this was known long time ago, to the sikhs, to the veerashaivas, to the bantas and to mavericks like vishwamitra and parashurama and p others in between and all across.

you can make ambedkar the new manu. and constitution the new smriti. but unless you are willing to stand up to it, whatever you believe in is useless. and that is where the greatest fault of "secularists" lies. they are not willing to stand up to what they themselves believe in. hindus gets pissed because they have practically dumped manu and picked ambedkar. and yet the 'system' is not willing to defend itself.

why i say this? secularists can go on pissing on hindu civilizational aspects, but if they were seen to stand true to their theories, i am willing to wager that amarnath and rama sethu would make no difference to hindus. we are not that type of people. history, places, icons and symbols really dont matter. basic hindu ideas say these aint no kaaba. heck even kaaba aint no kaaba. p-number of temples and places poorvajas have submerged and let go. we even have myths about disgruntled mothers cursing entire temple towns. guess who is the bigger star? the disgruntled mom, not the gods.
Last edited by shaardula on 01 Aug 2008 10:35, edited 1 time in total.

prakashtirupati
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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby prakashtirupati » 01 Aug 2008 10:33

the 14 page mail sent by "Indian Mujahideen" to media .........

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4365020/indian-mujahideen

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Rishi » 01 Aug 2008 10:48

prakashtirupati wrote:the 14 page mail sent by "Indian Mujahideen" to media .........

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4365020/indian-mujahideen


Finally. Outlook had put it online, then removed it. I guess censorship was deemed necessary looking at the inflammatory content. Smells like Teen Paki...

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Pulikeshi » 01 Aug 2008 11:10

shaardula wrote:you can make ambedkar the new manu. and constitution the new smriti. but unless you are willing to stand up to it, whatever you believe in is useless. and that is where the greatest fault of "secularists" lies. they are not willing to stand up to what they themselves believe in. hindus gets pissed because they have practically dumped manu and picked ambedkar. and yet the 'system' is not willing to defend itself.


You got it right! Our frame of reference is currently "relative", "fuzzy" interpretations of Dharma.
Because, we are disconnected from our roots and have not updated the system to meet the demands of the new environment.
We are neither with Manu nor with Ambedkar - we are in Trishanku Swarga!
We never understood the challenges of Codified Hierarchical Religions and what they imply to Social-Network-Culture based beliefs native to the East.
Hindus "defeated" themselves the day they accepted Codified Hierarchical Religions as Dharmic - that is agents that stabilize society.
The Entropy has already set in!

Man only has those rights that he is willing to defend!

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby ShyamSP » 01 Aug 2008 11:31

Pulikeshi wrote:PS: I'd agree with you that Dharma is confusing to the conversation if you had said, because todays India is secular, Dharma (as law) does not apply to the citizens of India and they are governed by Common Law. Perhaps, that is the reflection of this forum as well.


Yes. Here are examples of how Dharma changes by nature/time for the same act of killing a deer.

It is Dharmic for a lion to kill a free-roaming deer
(It is Lion's nature)
It was Dharmic for a hunter to kill a free-roaming deer 2000 years ago
(It was Hunter's nature and plenty of deers were available)
It was Adharmic for a person to kill a free-roaming deer 2000 years ago
(Why taking life unnecessarily? - Prana Hani)
It is Adharmic for hunter/person to kill a free-roaming deer at present
(Not many deers left. why killing them?)

Having said that, it is Dharmic to kill a terrorist. But you may be punished for taking law into your own hands as per law. So Dharma and law may not be compatible with each other for the same act.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Pulikeshi » 01 Aug 2008 11:42

ShyamSP wrote:Yes. Here are examples of how Dharma changes by nature/time for the same act of killing a deer.

It is Dharmic for a lion to kill a free-roaming deer
(It is Lion's nature)
It was Dharmic for a hunter to kill a free-roaming deer 2000 years ago
(It was Hunter's nature and plenty of deers were available)
It was Adharmic for a person to kill a free-roaming deer 2000 years ago
(Why taking life unnecessarily? - Prana Hani)
It is Adharmic for hunter/person to kill a free-roaming deer at present
(Not many deers left. why killing them?)

Having said that, it is Dharmic to kill a terrorist. But you may be punished for taking law into your own hands as per law. So Dharma and law may not be compatible with each other for the same act.


Great example. However wrong interpretation!

You are confusing personal (one person's Dharma) with what is good for the whole (society).
Dharma is not Guna (nature) (which is the nature of a lion or a hunter or any other subject under consideration)

Smrithi allows change in laws (Dharmic law) over the time period to take into account the changing times (environment) as you mention with deer population reducing.
This along with the Varna system is why Sanatha Dharma has survived this long. However, we are losing that battle.
Some of this confusion about what is Dharma came with protestant Buddhism, but has remained in that confused state to date.
It is to the credit of the founding fathers and mothers of Sanathana Dharma that is survives even when its adherents have forgotten its original framework!

Finally, what you said about Dharmic to kill a terrorist and then being punished may be true.
Depends: If you shot the said terrorist during a criminal act to protect yourself or others - even civil law (based on Common Law) may not prosecute you much less a Dharmic one.

PS: Guys, this perhaps needs a longer discussion.. I honestly am interested but rarely find the time to do this. Hence, I hope this is my last post given other pressing needs. I also do not want to flout the rules of this forum. So, if a thread arises to discuss will post there at leisure - thanks for playing!

What I meant to Shiv on Common Law was that not many of current India (Hindu even) has much understanding of Sanathana Dharma, much less how to formulate Dharma to take on the forces that are acting upon it, hence it could be confusing to the conversation at hand. Therefore until some common ground is reached on our collective understanding of Dharma we'd be putting the cart in front of the horse. Hope that clarifies.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Murugan » 01 Aug 2008 12:09

This is precisely the meaning I get from what Kaushal said. Hindus are basically afraid of Muslims (who might be jihadis) and will openly admit it.


the situation is complex and not like 1+1 = 2 everywhere.

one family had a huge business having shops and offices in 18 areas of a city and at least 28 areas in an outside a state.

four offices were in very sensitive area infested by M goons where H would think twice to venture even in broad daylight. this Hs started four shops in that area. all the boys in the family crossing 21 years of age will apply for fire arm licence and possess one - policy from day one. used to hire M goons - (yes anyone can buy services of Terror International Inc) to protect their business during riots and disturbances which was a common sight at least once a year.

later they entered into understanding with local Ms who had business in H areas -that- they will protect each others' business - so once the riot breaks out people will be 'protecting' their businesses with these arrangements.

later that agreement had to be scrapped. by the time these H boys acquired necessary skill to find out which part to be kicked when riots break out. they made it possible to destroy that myth that it is impossible to do business in notorious m areas. these boys still carry their fatakadi with them, brandish them with pride at these business places. they respect if powerful.

Hs afraid of Ms was a myth - the difference is : M goons are like crete - paagal snake - bites without provocation Hs are like Cobra!

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Rahul M » 01 Aug 2008 12:18

Pulikeshi, please check PM.
thanks.
Rahul.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Raja » 01 Aug 2008 14:54

This entire thing is masterminded by ISI/Pakistan. They are trying their best to make it seem like its the grievances of IM that is causing this and I see lot of people in media buying into that bs. On one hand we have half baked theories, on the other hand we have CONCRETE EVIDENCE of Pakistan's role in the embassy blasts in Kabul not so long ago. These blasts are the same thing packaged in a different manner. I wish the central government had guts and would call spade a spade. I would like to see the highest office in India calling out Pakistan on it and forcing other countries to act too in light of the role of Pakistan in the embassy blasts. It is a shame that it is hardly brought up even by the media.

If we are willing to rationalize every bomb blast and not face the obvious then no one else is going to do it for us either.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby kshirin » 01 Aug 2008 16:42

These consecutive attacks and other internal disturbances inclduing withdrawal of Commie support are taking place in the context of the strategic realignment (N-deal) therefore the China angle - it isn't just a theory it is present hard day international reality of the games big boys play. They don't and never have had to get their hands dirty. At last US has woken up to the ISI Taliban Al Qaeda nexus which now is so solidly consolidated it is too late. I think our only options are to break up Pakistan into friendly democratic Sindh, Baloch etc. while dealing decisively with FATA and NWFP (covertly of course). We also have to gear up our doctrines and readiness to meet threats in case of WMD attack. Though ISI will not be crazy enough to sanction that, cos they know what will come, their agents have a habit of proving the Frankenstein syndrome right and could do so, inviting massive retaliation. Again, we have to be ready to strike quickly and hard before international pressure bears in, enough to deliver a message that we are not a soft state. That is why I think we should give some indication of resolve and redlines which cannot be crossed publicly now, so that ISI knows what price there is to pay. Of course, the danger to that is that China then gears up on the other side.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby surinder » 01 Aug 2008 17:57

Karan Dixit wrote:Courage is attitude. Very well said Shiv.

Also many people do not realize that but courage can be self taught. Draw a line and do everything in your power to defend that line and at any cost. Constantly make an effort to broaden that boundary line.

It can start with projecting the correct body language and standing up for your culture and value systems. Pretty soon you will realize that in order to stand up your beliefs and culture, you have to learn the art of combat.

Prepare for the worst and hope that when the moment comes, Lord Krishna will guide your chariot. That is all we can do.


Karan,

very well said. Courage is essential for survival. Your post was was very nice.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby enqyoob » 01 Aug 2008 18:51

I wonder if that thread is still around - I mean the one where the Bradminullahs were waxing eloquent about the need to make the forum more "welcoming", and wondering how to get more "other community" members to come here and feel welcome, because the posts are all so "sensitive to the feelings"...

And all those BRand new BRadmins, wet behind the ears and all eager like bunnies to go hopping around giving everyone advice to be "sensitive". Respectful of other postors even if they are blithering idiots.. Oh! What we post here is read by IMPORTANT people! Log kya kahenge? Oh, that sounds like "flamebait", let's be respectful now... Oh! We can't have NON-SERIOUS posts on this hugely SERIOUS forum! :roll:

Seems like all this was just petty jealosy to delete the only thread that has any intelligence behind it - u no which one. I knew that was 80 percent of it, but I was wrong. It's 457% of it. Worse than Airport Security in lack of a sense of humor. Worse than Associate Deans in pompousness.

Just browsing the past few pages makes one feel the ambience of loitering around downtown Ahmedaslumbab or Godhra holding the Severed Pig's Head (SPH Model 3) and the Pregnant Wimmen Disemboweling Trishool (PWDT Model 27) and the Slum-Burning Gas Cylinder (SBGC Model 5) and the Molotovullah ZamZamCola Sleeper Passenger Burning Bottle (MZSPB2 Model S-6).

Boo! to the adminullahs for closing down the (u-no-which) thread, which was just clean civilized, polite fun compared to this hate-filled foaming savages' thread. Forget it, it was just clean fun, no comparison needed. Used to be so informative and entertaining.

May your camels eat your satphones and make you late for the Loya Jirga Debriefing Candidate Selection Discussion. May your trishool strap get entangled in your langoti as you swing it. May your gada bonk you on your own shin. May a thousand Rakshasas bee on your Baithak. May your mace be beneath you as you sit down cross-legged.
Last edited by enqyoob on 01 Aug 2008 19:18, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby CRamS » 01 Aug 2008 18:57

Raja wrote:
If we are willing to rationalize every bomb blast and not face the obvious then no one else is going to do it for us either.


Its cowardcie by another name, no other way to describe it.

Also, there a little bit of colonial piskology involved here. Sure there are demented morons in India like the Teestas/Bharkas/Sheelas/Karans etc who are jihadis or their allies in mufti. But there are those in India who are actually angry at TSP like us but wont come out and say so becasue like us they will end up just blowing steam and whine profusely giving TSPians private thrills at the pain they caused and the inability of India to hit back. So these elite Indians in order to look macho and hide their frustration will come out and rationalize and actually take their vent out on us "Hindu extremists"; it makes them look exalted, esepcially in the court of western opinion as this line of argument is in vouge, and it gives them a escapist route; "I am not the helpless victim who was attacked as revenge for Gujarat", rather, "I am the macho enlightened saint who can expose the Hindus extremists who are the cause of this". And note these very same people will have no problem talking about the excesses of so called "Al Quaida" and Bin Ladin, once again because its the western norm.

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Re: Blasts in Ahmedabad

Postby Avinash R » 01 Aug 2008 20:28

^The right word for this cowardly attitude is dhimmitude.

when other non-dhimmis tell such person about the dangers of islamism they are instead asked to keep quiet for sake of communal harmony. even if this does not silence the non-dhimmis then they are branded as communal and fascist.

the poster boy for this type of dhimmitude is Jogen Mandal who not only sided with the muslim league and supported partition and then was awarded with law&labour ministry in the paki govt.

Later this very same person would rue the fact that women from his community were raped by his muslim brothers in east pakistan(bangladesh). anyone who is serious about understanding islamism and ethnic cleansing by islamists should check the history of jogen mandal and what happened to people of his community who foolishly believed that islamists will spare them.


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