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Blasts in delhi

Singha
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Singha » 14 Sep 2008 16:36

there are free sw like NetStumbler that sniffs out all available wifi nodes within range and
tells you which are open for all. I think they more around with laptop, find these entry
points for future use and maybe just browse web for a few mins before noting it and
driving away.

hegde
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Posts: 10
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby hegde » 14 Sep 2008 16:53

what i find really suspicious is the recent surge in terrorism related movies produced by Bollywood... in fact, there seems to be a curious correlation between the terrorism that occurs and the movies.

A Wednesday, Hijack, Mukhbir, Mumbai Meri Jaan, C Kompany... the sudden cavalcade of terrorism-themed movies is quite an anomaly, even for Bollywood!

it appears that there may be more than meets the eye. Might it be so that the "Indian Mujahideen" is actually a fake group created by special interest groups with links to the underworld and the movie industry?

In the movie Hijack, the terrorist "Rasheed" looks at the camera and says "stop us if you can".

And these were the exact words used by the Indian Mujahideen, see http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/26ahd3.htm

Is this a case of life imitating art? Surely it is a bit too conspicuous this time.

They say they are avenging Gujarat riots, why did they suddenly remember Gujarat after 6 years? Somethings really fishy in all of this.

shiv
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2008 17:16

hegde wrote:what i find really suspicious is the recent surge in terrorism related movies produced by Bollywood... in fact, there seems to be a curious correlation between the terrorism that occurs and the movies..


Same source of funds. Mumbai may have ended up being too much like Karachi for easy control? I wonder..

What do Mumbaikars think - no insult intended

Mahendra
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Mahendra » 14 Sep 2008 17:35

We are a divided lot, or else ordinary mumbaikars would have kicked out bafoons like Raj Thackeray long ago. The very fact that we speak these many different languages in itself prevents complete integration. Yeah at times of war we fight as a nation but in times of peace we are busy fighting each other for the scarce resources, for statehood, for umpteem other irrelevant causes which bring no other benefits other than may be a few votes. We Indians and particularly hindus have short term views and memory, we elect absolute idiots to parliament, the very quality of our lawmakers is a damning statement of our inadequacy to think as a nation.
there is only one solution, elect nationalists who have a pan nation appeal, who matter to people across state and language barriers, there are only few such people around, the nation needs to rally behind them. It will happen at some point of time but for that to happen, unfortunately there will have to be more amd more such attacks because ordinary Indians react only when they are slapped on both cheeks

salam

Avinash R
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Avinash R » 14 Sep 2008 17:44

Just what is needed. kalam has given a press statement today that he favours a tough anti-terror law to fight terrorists and ensure speedy justice.
Advani promises to bring back POTA in 100 days to curb terror

Bangalore, Sep 14 (UNI) Promising to tackle terrorism by bringing back POTA within 100 days of the NDA regime if voted to power, BJP's Prime Ministerial candidate L K Advani today asked the party to arrive at 'must win' mode synergising its thinking, strategy and actions for removing a ''failed, discredited and most corrupt UPA government in Delhi.''

In his ''marg darashan'' remarks at the conclusion of the three-day National Executive meet here, Mr Advani also promised the states to recommend for Presidential assent for any of their state specific anti-terror law within this period besides taking other tough measures against terrorism if the NDA was given mandate in the coming elections to 15th Lok Sabha.

Mr Advani's comments came in the wake of last night's serial blasts in Delhi killing at least 25 people.

sum
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby sum » 14 Sep 2008 18:23

We are a divided lot, or else ordinary mumbaikars would have kicked out bafoons like Raj Thackeray long ago. The very fact that we speak these many different languages in itself prevents complete integration.

I feel that as more and more bombs explode breaking regional barriers and specifically targetting the kaffirs of all regions of India, more and more of the unity will occur among the hunted Hindus....

So,maybe that is a plus point to all this madness(no offence to the victims though :cry: )..

Raja Ram
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Raja Ram » 14 Sep 2008 18:28

I was in Delhi just couple of days before these blasts, in the same M Block and CP areas. It gives me a reality check that if these terrorists had decided to do this act on thursday, I would probably not be typing this mail.

We better understand one thing. All of us and let us be clear. Especially those who are indulging in sheer intellectual mastrubation here. When they strike next you could be the one and no matter what your view point you will be DEAD. It is a simple, clear and unambigous as that.

It is a complete stupidity, gentle rakshaks, to think that the government alone can protect us. As a society we think it is the duty of some inanimate government and obscure intelligence agencies to protect us because we pay (some small minority at that) some taxes. What crock! We think we are a democracy, but once every 5 years when we get to vote what do we do? The so called educated middle classes do not vote, if they do it is on for some inane reason (free color tv, free power, caste, reservation or some such thing). The guys thus elected will deliver that. Has any election in India, been fought on national security, anti terror plank? Can any party win on that plank mainly. NEVER. So yatha praja thatha raja is equally true.

This dispensation ruling us from Delhi and many before of all hues and color have been remiss on this front time and again. Yes including the last one. 22,000 vacancies are there in IB alone. Not filled. Field level officers are missing. No investments made there. It does not bring in votes you see. Yet you and me want protection. If you are one state ruled by "secular" party you can be trusted with a law on terror, if you are a state ruled by "communal" you cannot have the law. Witness the way the Gujarat Bill which is almost identical to Maharashtra Bill has been oppossed by the central government for presidential assent. And we want to talk of speaking in one voice and be sensitive to minority feelings.

The cold truth is this my friends, unless the majority feelings on this is translated as votes you cannot change and secure yourself, but the sadder cold truth is the majority itself is divided. There is no "Hindu POV" on terror my friends. There is only regional POV, caste POV and intellectual POV. In other words, hindus do not care about Islamic terror. If they do, they will demand as one voice accountability from the government on this issue.

When there is no demand from the majority, there is no Indian POV. Who says democracy is a perfect system of government? It is not. It is merely the one that causes the least harm. So as long as the majority does not have its say, the minority can and will have its way. For a healthy democracy, it should be the other way, minority can and must have its say, and majority must always have its way. For good or bad.

Let us hope and pray for the sake of our future and in memories of those who have been victims that there is this awakening more amongst us the common people first. If we resolve to fight, then our netas will have to fight, the government will fight. It can never be the other way round.

Please do not rant and whine, but do the right thing. Stand up and start fighting back. Speak out to demand action and call spade a spade. The tenets of Islam is the problem, the tenets of communism is the problem, the bane of conversion is the problem. The aberrations of reactive communal behaviour of the majority is the effect not the cause. The victims are all Indians both majority and minority communities.

By the way what is this double standard in BR. I was subjected to so much thought policing and cross examination on the nuclear issue. Here there are clearly downright lies being asserted as facts by pseudo secularists. And it goes unmoderated. Political correctness has become the standard in BR. What nonsense is this to try and equally pass the blame of this dastardly act on hindus. On what basis is this tolerated, but not my balanced post in the nuclear deal?

I submit that even if this is a private forum and the powers that be can do what they want, they have not been fairly observing their own rules. Not fair gentlemen!

I am not complaining, I am glad to be alive.

vsudhir
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby vsudhir » 14 Sep 2008 18:52

Good post Raja Ram saar.

IMO, the next few polls will be critical. If the non-minority doesn't vote as a non-minority on security issues, we'll simply see more of the same for many more yrs to come.

There're some reasons to be optimistic though. The recent Jammu mass-protests were precisely about a national security problem and the next poll in J&K will reflect the same, IMO. Sure, the establishment and their dhimmedia connivers played every trick in the book to bury the story, twist it, misreport it, etc but none have worked. The polarization on the ground is palpable in Guj and Jammu, even today. The local units of the psec parties revolted against their ostrich high commands. The ruling dispensation, in its steadfast refusal to see what that means, has shot itself in the foot. I hope will do itself in in the next polls and take the die-nasty with it as well.

Back in 2002, the Guj elections were also about the security question for non-minorities and the politics of Guj has since changed, possibly permanently. Sates facing the worst terror heat are showing some semblence of electoral common sense. After Guj, it shall be Jammu next. And perhaps Rajasthan and Maharashtra too, since they too have borne the brunt of terror recently. Of course, its far too much to expect WB to go this route, perhaps. And there's good reason why Kolkata will never be the target of serial bum blasts. (Why draw attn to the HuJI hub in Des?).

Meanwhile the naxal menace and EJ conversion circus continues unchecked. Orissa witnessed the first shots in an internal (and possibly civil) war that may yet engulf the rest of the country.

shiv
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2008 18:57

Raja Ram - good post as usual - and happy to hear that you are fine. It looks like you had a brush with the nuclear thread as well did you?

I want to point out a curious anomaly in India that has struck me as a thought but I have never been able to put it down in writing. I will say it as I see it and try not to extrapolate too much.

Let me first lay down a standard - a unit of measurement for "general knowledge, knowledge of geopolitics, science. technology and knowledge of various countries of the world nd a general degree of sophistication and being worldly wise". I will not give this unit a name, but will say that its value can range from 0 to 10. A person such as the maid who comes home in the evenings who is not even aware of blasts in Delhi would rate 0. You would probably score 8. Illiterate Indians, living in their closed small communities would probably rate in the region of 0 to 3

For as long as I can remember, and very definitely for the past 20 years at least - the company I keep, my relatives, my friends, my peer group and even people on BRF have seemed to rate in the region of 6 to 8 on my scale.. But the more I look at individual ministers and people holding responsible positions in India - the more I feel that they tend to come from the ranks of the most "innocent and illiterate" Indians and would rate in the region of 3-6 in general, with a few rare political stalwarts scoring 8 or 9.

One of the problems in India is to bring our own polity up to speed and to get people who have an awareness of the world score of at least 7. Our political system elects people with scores of even 1 and 2, and ministers would rate about 4 or average. But we go through education and experiences that give us a rating of 6 to 8.

That is why we tend to say "BRF ahead of the curve". BRF is not ahead. The sad part is that the Indian people and polity are behind.


Muns
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Muns » 14 Sep 2008 19:27

Learned Helplessness. Thats what it is people. For those who might not know, it's a psychological condition that upon shocking a people repeatedly to violent acts of trauma, The community just bundles up like bunny and refuses to act even when an escape route is presented. If the door is finally lifted on a cage where the subject has been shocked repeatedly, the subject just refuses to make his way towards the exit and would rather stay helpless on the floor.

That's exactly what this present govt has managed to do. Upon every blast the leaders MMS, Shivraj and Sonia have come rushing out with not a planned thought out message of what needs to be accomplished, but have just yelled out : COMMUNALISM! CASTEISM! CONGRESSISM! SEKOOLARISM! SHANTI! SHANTI! SHANTI! until the next blast occurs.
Hence they diffuse the crisis by presenting all these confusing targets and arguments without hitting anywhere in the direction they should be. It's Wahhabi Islamism folks : That's the Target and without addressing it for fear of the 3 C's above we're going to keep Dying.

1) I hate to say it but Jammu has shown the way forward for Indians. Indians and Delhiites should get out on the street and demand their safety in numbers and riots. Protest and show the world the Inadequacy of this UPA govt. If Pota is needed, whats needed to to get out and Show support for it. Hold the banner against Islamism or keep Dying.

2) The news channels seems to report the same junk. The fear of Communalism has paralysed an entire media and state into showing what the problem is. While BRFites know what the problem is and how to act, your common street guy is faced with the same Sekoolar arguments of how India is. Unless he visits these portals...it takes years to come up with the same knowledge base we here have acquired. Whats needed is a crash course on the issue. NDTV and the like aren't going to address it, for the above reasons.
Is NewsX the answer? Might it be possible to air BR views there? Or does anyone influential on this site know people in the news media to garner a support for BR's views.

I know this keeps coming up every time a blast occurs. But a right Video interview with the right questions asked, Lets say an interview of Dr Shiv or Sridhar might be a great way to disseminate information on the web Portals here before hosting on TV stations.

Its time to act as a community folks. The govt isn't doing anything and the word needs to spread about the threat of radical Islam. Individuals here need to use whatever political muscle or Influence they can garner to spread views and garner a collective Idea or Organisation. It needs to be done or We're going to Keep DYING!

On that note, is anyone interested in a BR meet here in the states, NJ/NY area to discuss ideas?
Last edited by Muns on 14 Sep 2008 19:35, edited 1 time in total.

Tanaji
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Tanaji » 14 Sep 2008 19:28

Some posters seem to think BJP is the preferred option and may tackle this more "effectively" and is more "nationalistic". We all remember the Royal Escort that was provided by the most honourable "I-was-in-the-army" Jaswant Singh to Masood Azhar and how they buckled completely to Islamic terror by prostrating themselves in the heart of terror central. So BJP or Congress, its really one and the same. The name of the game is political expidiency

There are only viable 2 solutions to this:

1. Indian society incuding muslims reject terror, and do so beyond the usual platitudes of demonstrations and we are against terror type of statements. They prove it by providing hard intelligence on hardliners, wandering imams from Saudi that espouse Wahabbism, and turnover people that are their followers. This is a bottoms up approach and the most effective.
Chances of this happening are slim to none in the current environment

2. The babus and politicos wake up and actually go after the terrorists, without vote bank politics. This has zero chance of happening, unless of course the terrorists actually start targetting the fat cat politicos and the babus, their wives and children. Note the alacrity with which "Nationalist" BJP acted when the parliament was attacked: it was their skin on the line for the first time, and the parties immediately came together to show who the boss was.
The terrorists are too smart to target them, and besides they are well defended anyway courtesy to your and my taxes.

Bottom line, regardless of the party, we are in for more blasts. But tjhe silver lining is the way in which human mind reacts. If faced with routine , real danger to life and limb, the mind and society automatically downgrades the perceived threat of the danger. So in the near future, there will be lots more blasts and lots more people getting killed, but we will look at it as just another occupational hazard: something like you run the risk of getting killed while crossing the road or catching the train. The mind will categorize it in the same manner.

In the end, the terrorists will lose because of the above simply because the nation will just not care about the blasts anymore. Sure quite a few people will die, but they will have lost. And this is what the politicos BJP and Congress would prefer as well: they dont have to solve the problem by taking hard decisions, but it gets relegated to second or third rate status. You dont see them getting out of shape because thousands die due to road accidents do you? Terrorist strikes will be the same in the near future: a mere road accident statistic.

Until someone decides to set up a WMD. Then we will have another thread like this, and another B Raman column in 5 hours of the incident.

------------------------------------
Allakh Niranjan!

BSR Murthy
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby BSR Murthy » 14 Sep 2008 19:54

There is no point in talking in partisan tones. Yes, we need a nationalist party/leaders - this of course does not automatically mean BJP. The conditions are ripe to float a new nationalist party/movement. In my view there are many reasons to declare emergency in the country right now: Islamic terror, Naxalist terror, porous borders, divided people - largely on caste lines, perpetuated by reservations/vote bank politics (here add religious divide as well), active secessionist movement in Kashmir, the need to repair the constitution to make all people and all regions equal (scrap caste based reservations, scrap 370), the need to clear all the slums and encroachment and above all to remove corruption.

Abhi_G
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Abhi_G » 14 Sep 2008 19:59

[quote="Tanaji"]
But tjhe silver lining is the way in which human mind reacts. If faced with routine , real danger to life and limb, the mind and society automatically downgrades the perceived threat of the danger. So in the near future, there will be lots more blasts and lots more people getting killed, but we will look at it as just another occupational hazard: something like you run the risk of getting killed while crossing the road or catching the train. The mind will categorize it in the same manner.

Tanaji,
The dangerous part is that this mindset is already setting in after every bomb blast. It is a mindset of complete defeat. Bombed to pieces can never or should never be accepted as another occupational hazard. If accepted, I mean, it is the nadir of consciousness. Simply put, if that mindset comes in, the natural instinct of fighting for survival must have been badly sapped. It will only lay credence to the pompous claim of Islam: strike terror into the hearts of non believers and strike them to numbness. I do not see where the terrorists lose.

John Snow
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby John Snow » 14 Sep 2008 20:06

So Raja Ram garu "vigilanteeism" and each for his own is what you prescribe, the Govt has no role except send forensic experts after the terrorist act and then say this guy did this?

What about punitive punishment for killing, disobeying laws?

what is the role of Executive branch, judiciary etc.

Can not a PL be filed for courts to pass strictures at least?

Also looks like to be realtively safer go farthest from India, and also prosper with out connections.

sunilUpa
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby sunilUpa » 14 Sep 2008 20:18

It is not the question of BJP govt. or Congress govt., which ever party in power has to pay the price, and this simple fact should be clear to all netas. You don't do your work, we will try someone else, irrespective of who is in power.

Remember in a democracy you get what you deserve.

Mathew G
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Mathew G » 14 Sep 2008 20:23

Tanaji wrote:Some posters seem to think BJP is the preferred option and may tackle this more "effectively" and is more "nationalistic"….


As a person belonging to the minority Indian Christian denomination, I was one the first to state the “nationalist” BJP as better option than Congress. Now some leftists would think what would make me say this, considering I’m what they call a “minority”.

I have only one thing to say to that. Majority Hindus have been too tolerant to foreign civilizations and too kind to other religions for too long a time. Which is why we Christian mallus down in the South flourished as a community and got along well with others. It is time the minorities gave this country something back.

Majority of Indians compatriots are just paralyzed by fear of the unknown (read *communcal riots*). What is the consequence of saying/doing/acting this; Just as India’s opening batsmen are in cricket. In dire situations, you got to stand up and face the music. At times, when India needs you, you need a nationalistic fervor for a righteous cause for your country. If you don’t want that, then you cannot call yourself Indian.

Let’s face it. The principle of secularism is farcical. It has failed wherever it was attempted. I cannot recall a real secular society that has flourished anywhere in this world. Not US, Not UK, Not Israel, or even down under Australia/NZ or even Europe for that matter.

None of these nations put so much emphasis on secular moral grounds like India’s secular parties do; that they become so unabashedly subservient and too willing to “accommodate” even at the cost of its own citizenry’s lives.

That is sheer stupidity and suicidal.

SwamyG
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby SwamyG » 14 Sep 2008 20:27

But a right Video interview with the right questions asked, Lets say an interview of Dr Shiv or Sridhar might be a great way to disseminate information on the web Portals here before hosting on TV stations.

Very good idea. YouTube is a varaprasadam. Time to give MSM a run for the money; grassroots change from people.

Baljeet
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Baljeet » 14 Sep 2008 20:28

As some members and I have said it multiple times, as long as we have vote bank politics we will have these blasts. Is it any surprise, Commies, BSP, RJD, Congress, BJP etc have only given symbolic statements. Where are all the media people, peaceniks like Gadha(medha) Patekar, Andhi Roy, their cronies now. Not a peep from them. Why don't they go and visit the house of these martyrs and teach their peace crap and communal harmony. As long as these privileged class live in their gated community--far away from these blasts they can preach peace and non violence. The solution to annhilating "MUSLIM TERRORISM" from this nation is "Rendition". This shall include their sypathisers. There was a pic posted here with little kids holding banner, "Terrorist Uncle...please don't kill us" in essence that pic reflects the state of this nation. Raja Ram has pointed out the middle class, educated one doesn't want to vote, they want all the benefits but none of the responsibility. We are all culprit and guilty of fomenting terrorism in this nation.. As the saying goes, "Aatank sey yudh na karna, aatank ka saath dena hai". We as nation want to protect ourselves but want someone else to go and fight these terrorists. Well there is nobody left to fight them since we all are expecting someone else to fight our fight.
Pakis have spend time, energy and resources in studying the psychology, methodology of hindus in depth. They know we are best at making dharnas, carrying meaningless posters, crippling government functions in the name of Bhai Chara, filing needless PIL at the drop of hat, making tall claims, aspire to live in make believe world as projected by Bollywood. There is no body else who has developed this kind of expertise in the whole world like us Indians. We are quick to blame Intel agencies, police force, etc for every blast, how many of us know--that how many blasts have been prevented. They only have to succeed once--our intel, police forces have to succeed all of the time. If our police and intel agencies start picking up people for interrogation, all media, every sympathizer of pakis comes out in force giving it a hue of communalism. These same karats, Yechuri, Mayawati, Yadav's, Azami will scream muslims are discriminated. we all cower in the corner instead of facing these traitors. Not everything is Bhagwan ki Marji, or Bhagya mein yehi likha tha.
We have forgotten the words of Krsna when he said, "Veer Bhogya Vasundhra". Since we are not Veer anymore--we can't Bhogya vasundhra--yet every Bharat Vanshi claims to know Gita by heart.

The people of this nation must demand rendition type program--we don't need help from any other nation for this we have resources and places available within this country.

Pakis are going down they will take us down, these senile, gutless, coward politicians want to go down with them. Pakis are hitting at everything--sports, economic centers, military centers, innocent people who just want to make a living. I wonder what will happen if some ministers son or daughter is blown in one of these blasts? I hope this question is answered sooner than later.

shiv
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2008 20:34

Baljeet wrote:. I wonder what will happen if some ministers son or daughter is blown in one of these blasts?



They will mobilize the armed forces, do nothing and then release some terrorists.

enqyoob
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby enqyoob » 14 Sep 2008 20:40

AoA! The kufr are all jumping around and ranting like headless chickens (copyright Ronen Sen).

See how the Faithful express Concern:

ndian-American Muslim group condemns Delhi blasts
NEW KERALA / UNI

US Muslim group condemns Delhi blasts
HINDUSTAN TIMES

US Muslim group condemns Delhi blasts
TIMES OF INDIA
_____________________________________________________________

Indian American group
denounces bomb blasts in Delhi

Urges police to not ignore Kanpur bomb blasts in the investigations
:roll:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 13, 2008

Indian Muslim Council-USA (IMC-USA), an advocacy group dedicated towards safeguarding India's pluralist and tolerant ethos, :rotfl: denounces in strongest possible terms the bomb blasts across Delhi and expresses condolences to the victims and their loved ones.

According to reports, coordinated serial blasts occurred in New Delhi, the capital of India, within a span of 45 minutes leaving around 30 people dead and scores of others injured. "IMC-USA condoms this heinous act of mindless violence by (cowherds). Our sympathies are with the victims and their families." said Mr. Rasheed Ahmed, President of IMC-USA. He
added (i.e., to clarify who the "victims" are in his opinion): "Increasing incidences of terrorism in the recent past with the election around the corner raises suspicion of such blasts being
orchestrated by communal forces bent on polarizing the society to reap electoral gains. A thorough and transparent investigation should be made to bring the culprits to the book (Hint: not the Bible!) instead of rushing to hasty conclusions".

Three weeks back, police found a large stash of bomb-making materials including explosive
powder, timers, batteries and pellets when two Bajrang Dal men were killed in Kanpur while manufacturing bombs. Investigators (meaning in Pakistan) suspect that the blasts of Delhi Jama Masjid in 2006 and Ajmer Sharif dargah in 2007 could be the handiwork of these groups. "If police excludes incidences like Kanpur and Nanded bomb blasts in which Bajrang Dal militants were either killed or injured making bombs, it will amount to a willful cover up", Mr. Ahmed further stated. In recent years, several cases of bomb blasts by men affiliated with Hindu nationalist groups have been shoddily investigated and in some instances covered up by the investigating authorities.

IMC-USA calls upon government and police authorities to put the welfare and security of people ahead of communal politics and demonstrate political will in nabbing the perpetrators of this heinous crime. Preventing future acts of terror is possible only by conducting transparent and honest investigations to bring the culprits to The Book and not through indiscriminate arrests and brutalization of young Muslims as has been widely covered by media. Following the recent blasts in Ahmedabad and Bangalore, there has been an outcry by minorities and human rights activists that police officials were quick in scapegoating innocent Muslim youth than in seriously solving the growth of terror networks.

Indian Muslim Council-USA is the largest advocacy organization of Indian Muslims in the United States with 10 chapters across the nation.

CONTACT:

Dr. Hyder Khan
phone/fax: 1-800-839-7270

email: media@imc-usa.org


Bismillah! U c hu the REAL victims are.

Dmurphy
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Dmurphy » 14 Sep 2008 20:47

shiv wrote:They will mobilize the armed forces, do nothing and then release some terrorists.


Another Operation Parakram on the Pukkis in the making then? If it does happen, lets just go a step ahead this time and give them a kiss. A kiss of death.

Raja Ram
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Raja Ram » 14 Sep 2008 21:19

John snow garu,

Not vigalintism but recommend something else. Unless there is a demand by the majority that these political parties do something, nothing will happen. All of them are after the gravy train, no one is holier than the other. That is granted, but if the majority community decides and asks in one voice, expressed through the ballot, "hey you politicians, if you want to be in the gravy train, you have to ensure that this terror is crushed. That is the least that you can do"

Only when the majority community votes in this way will this war against terror be won. Not with nuclear deals, nuclear tests, economic growth rates, secular love and baichara, POTA, reservations, first right on resources, 370, this and that.

Tell me sir, when has national security been an electoral issue, leave alone a central electoral issue. It is time that we have a general election that is fought wth national security and war on terror as the central issue. Is any party ready and willing to do that? Are the people willing to do that? - No, shiv's post on this thread in response to mine is a reality check every one should read here.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby harbans » 14 Sep 2008 21:35

Only when the majority community votes in this way will this war against terror be won. Not with nuclear deals, nuclear tests, economic growth rates, secular love and baichara, POTA, reservations, first right on resources, 370, this and that.

You're not offering a solution. National security issues are being dealt with in a similar fashion by parties across the spectrum. Even Mulayam was tough in his spell as defense minister. Congress and BJP have almost the same take on FP issues.

What you miss out is the single most important issue to win the WOT without which all the above including your take on majority voting on NS issues will be useless too.

Unless we tackle the ideology of Islam, neither US, India or anyone wins the WOT.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby SSridhar » 14 Sep 2008 21:49

It is the turn of the President to speak

"Such blasts cannot disturb us. We will march forward more confidently. This is a work of cowards and we will fight this courageously," Patil said

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby enqyoob » 14 Sep 2008 21:55

To summarize the issue (serious post alert):

1. The "purpose" of the terror attacks is indeed to destroy the premise that India can exist as a "pluralistic", "secular" and free society.

2. The premise of the terrorists is that Indian "communal forces" can be played like puppets on strings, obediently amplifying any destruction that tiffin-carrier bombs can cause, by using gas cylinders, trishools, pickaxes and PWD (pregnant-woman-disemboweling, see shiv copyright). This then is amplified, with or without factual basis, by the armies of the Sixth Column inside and outside India - the Booker Prize winners, Boob-of-The-Month Award winners, the Magsaysay Award winners, the Tippu Sultan Religious Tolerance Award Winners.

3. Both of the above are well underway, despite the most strenuous efforts of the government to do nothing that aggravates the above situation by REALLY publishing the evidence that it has about the external or internal linkages of all the attacks so far.

4. In fact the terrorists are winning because the GOI is caught in paralysis, because this amplifies the Vigilante dumbasses into doing what the terrorists want them to do. Politicians with extreme positions will get elected, further helping to validate Purpose #1 with the help of #2.

5. The "other community" is not seen as helping matters, though they are the obvious intended victims of the terrorists - it is the destruction of the Indian Muslim community that will validate Pakistan's "raisin-dieter". OTOH, the conversion of the IM community into a howling pack of rabid dogs will also be a victory for the terrorists.

6. Unfortunately, the Boob-of-the-Month types, by whining about Human Rights in completely undeserved situations (real terrorist suspects detained) are accelerating the extremization of the IM community AND the resulting, alarming growth in majority sentiment that says: "All Muslims are terrorists unless proven otherwise".

7. So who can break through? ONLY THE IM COMMUNITY is seen to be "able" to stop this rot. However, there is no evidence of organized awakening there, to the obvious fact that setting off bombs in public places is not something that can expect a lot of "tolerance" or "rational understanding". ONLY the IM community can actually make a very public, very unambiguous, fatwa on terrorism, and basically order a zero-tolerance attitude to any terrorists and anyone who shelters them. "Blood is thicker than water" or "he is one my MY people" type excuses for not turning in terrorists, have to be completely stomped out, and there have to be some very public prosecutions and convictions for "failure to report a conspiracy", AND these have to be endorsed by the IM community.

Along with that (if and when that happens) there has to be a tough crackdown on the Vigilante types. I don't think India has the luxury of "tolerating" idiocy in this environment.

IOW, the terrorists are winning. All this "ranting" and "relieving tensions" on a public forum are simply expressions of gross indiscipline. Need to be stomped out - and that is by no means "endorsement" of terrorism.

Demanding tough laws and balancing those with tough protections for the real rights of humans, is essential, but the tavern-quality rants here are neither essential nor wise to tolerate.

Unless there is a swift increase in the national IQ and discipline, the terrorists will succeed in destroying India as we dream of it.
****

Of course the option of "tacking Islam" is one that many argue for. I wouldn't disagree that Islam as practised today needs some MAJOR advances, like about 1500 years' worth of civilization, to become civilized. But, who is going to implement this, and why would Muslims accept a new model? Some would "ban" Islam like they have "banned" SIMI. Some argue the Moo-Moo Solution - kicking Muslims out of all government jobs in India (er... what about the Armed Forces?) All of this is Thought-Policing or worse, and are completely poisonous speculations that only indicate hate-filled crania.

Again, ONLY THE INDIAN MUSLIM community can define its own future. Reduced tolerance will indeed start eliminating many of the freedoms that are taken for granted in India today - wearing traditional Islamic garb, a ban on Burkhas, on covering faces, are all very close already.
But much more important, the "Muslim laws" that reinforce the idea that Muslims are not subject to the Constitutional Duties of an Indian Citizen, must be voluntarily abrogated. And along with that, Article 370 must go.

The initiative for all this must come from the IM community. Question is, how, and do "they" have leaders far-sighted and brave enough to do a Kemal Attaturk to their "own" community? Time is running out for all of us.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby sampat » 14 Sep 2008 21:59

LeT claims it has no hand in Delhi blasts

So basically in future all terrorist attacks in India can be termed as internal disturbances. Taking the heat away from LeT and their sponsors in porkiland. Gradually in a decade or so these scums will be termed as freedom fighter by outside powers who wants India to toe its line and adjust in its geopolitical strategy. India must always link every attack back to LeT and ISI to decimate any leverage that this new trend could bring for chinis, prokis..ucnles and aunties.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Prasad » 14 Sep 2008 22:07

The initiative for all this must come from the IM community. Question is, how, and do "they" have leaders far-sighted and brave enough to do a Kemal Attaturk to their "own" community? Time is running out for all of us.


Narayanan,
In the absence of such an initiative, what does the majority of the country do? sit around and twiddle its thumbs awaiting the next prophet to rewrite Islam as they know it? While an initiative as you have mentioned will be the best possible way out of this, what is the backup or alternative plan to fall back on, in case such a thing doesn't happen?

Granted, actions like the moo-moo plan or diluted versions of it aren't acceptable since that brings victory to the terrorists, can't the govt do stuff that the bjp for example has long been clammering for - uniform civil code, elimination article 370? Its not a question of whether they can but a question of whether they should and get on the right path or avoid doing it and sit on their a$$es waiting for deliverance from the IM community itself.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby raj_singh » 14 Sep 2008 22:11

Shiv

Let me first lay down a standard - a unit of measurement for "general knowledge, knowledge of geopolitics, science. technology and knowledge of various countries of the world nd a general degree of sophistication and being worldly wise". I will not give this unit a name, but will say that its value can range from 0 to 10. A person such as the maid who comes home in the evenings who is not even aware of blasts in Delhi would rate 0. You would probably score 8. Illiterate Indians, living in their closed small communities would probably rate in the region of 0 to 3

For as long as I can remember, and very definitely for the past 20 years at least - the company I keep, my relatives, my friends, my peer group and even people on BRF have seemed to rate in the region of 6 to 8 on my scale.. But the more I look at individual ministers and people holding responsible positions in India - the more I feel that they tend to come from the ranks of the most "innocent and illiterate" Indians and would rate in the region of 3-6 in general, with a few rare political stalwarts scoring 8 or 9.

One of the problems in India is to bring our own polity up to speed and to get people who have an awareness of the world score of at least 7. Our political system elects people with scores of even 1 and 2, and ministers would rate about 4 or average. But we go through education and experiences that give us a rating of 6 to 8.


I am not sure whether I am adding something to your post or not... but nonetheless, would like to ask, where would Home Minister, Shivraj Patil will fit in this (above mentioned) scenario, given that last evening, within 5 hours (from 6pm to 11pm) he changed his dress 3 times? Instead of doing, as a Home Minister, what he was supposed to be doing during these tragedy, he was busy in going through his wardrobe and choosing which outfit to pick.

Story was on Star News.

Story is on

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby gandharva » 14 Sep 2008 22:21

The Pioneer Edit Desk

PM's logic: Trust Pakistan, not Gujarat


In revealing that he had informed the Prime Minister, the Home Minister and the National Security Adviser that a terror strike on Delhi was imminent, Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, has laid bare the joke that passes for the UPA Government's anti-terror strategy. In the light of this revelation, the UPA Government's cussed refusal to facilitate Presidential assent for Gujarat's anti-terror law becomes all the more scandalous and shameful. Here is a Government that is willing to trust a military dictator in Pakistan as a fellow 'victim of terror' and enter into a joint anti-terror mechanism with his discredited Government. However, it will treat State Governments in India as untouchables simply because they belong to a different political party. As is well-known, Delhi has been delaying clearance of the Gujarat Control of Organised Crime Bill, which was referred to it by the State Governor after being passed by the Assembly. After months of stonewalling, the Union Home Ministry finally said it had refused permission because the Bill's provisions were very similar to the Prevention of Terrorism Act, the anti-terrorism law the UPA Government abrogated in 2004. The Gujarat Government has argued that since next-door Maharashtra is allowed to have just such a law it is perplexing to deny it to other States. After all, the Maharashtra Control of Organised Crime Act was the template for both POTA and Gujarat's legislation. As such, if Congress-led Governments at the Centre and in Mumbai can live with MCOCA and be alive to its utility, what is the point denying this right to Gujarat? It is a logic that seems to have been understood, surprisingly, by National Security Adviser MK Narayanan, who has written to the Home Ministry in support of Gujarat's case. In his letter, Mr Narayanan has also referred to inputs from intelligence and security agencies and suggested that the demand for strong anti-terror laws, both at the national and State levels, is completely valid. He has, of course, completely contradicted his Prime Minister.




There are two issues at stake here. First, it is now increasingly clear that civil servants and police officers who actually monitor and fight terrorism are handicapped by the absence of an overarching law. Whether it is in intelligence-gathering and communication intercepts, in crime detection or in detention and interrogation, special provisions are required. Second, the response of the UPA Government -- backed by at least four allies that have done business with violent Islamist groups -- is diabolical. Consider this: It will not bring in a national law even if ordinary citizens die. It will perforce push State Governments into the forefront of India's war against terror. Finally, it will not allow willing States to equip themselves for battle. This Government has thrown India to the wolves.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.as ... nter_img=2

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Vikramaditya » 14 Sep 2008 22:24

On that note, is anyone interested in a BR meet here in the states, NJ/NY area to discuss ideas?


Count me in ... if you dont mind newbies attending.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby John Snow » 14 Sep 2008 22:26

I am a newbee too count me in, may be sunil can come too

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby sunilUpa » 14 Sep 2008 22:31

Count me in too..please open another thread for the meeting.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby enqyoob » 14 Sep 2008 22:37

can't the govt do stuff that the bjp for example has long been clammering for - uniform civil code, elimination article 370? Its not a question of whether they can but a question of whether they should and get on the right path or avoid doing it and sit on their a$$es waiting for deliverance from the IM community itself.


That is precisely what I would support, as long as it is a disciplined effort with carefully drawn bounds. For instance, "Demand Uniform Civil Code, so torch some businesses" is not a tolerable option - the guys who do this should be shot on sight.

My problem is also that "waiting around for the next prophet" is a non-starter, so the nation must move towards a situation that ENABLES such a "prophet" to arise and induce a following that argues for common sense and real "EQUALITY" not "complete freedom to be 8th century barbarians while enjoying on-demand IIT, IIM and medical college admission".

At present, the only thing that I can see happening, that MAY have a chance of inducing this, is the rise to power of someone who scares the Pu out of all communities. And that is very unfortunate.

As for "BJP CLAMMERING FOR", let me gently point out the obvious - that in 6 years of "power", the BJP did NOTHING of the sort - no move towards repealing 370, and for that matter, no attempt to debunk the Sachar Commission report. No move towards a Uniform Civil Code. No attempt to enforce the laws against secessionists.. no nothing. No relief for the Kashmiri Pandits. So I wonder what is the point of even hoping for another rise of the BJP. In fact, the BJP are indeed the forces that started this "Insaniyat" have-u-hugged-a-terrorist today culture. If TSP had tried what they tried in 1999, when Indira G was in power, "Pakistan" today would be a refugee camp west of the Sindhu river.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby BSR Murthy » 14 Sep 2008 22:46

narayanan wrote:Demanding tough laws and balancing those with tough protections for the real rights of humans, is essential, but the tavern-quality rants here are neither essential nor wise to tolerate.

Unless there is a swift increase in the national IQ and discipline, the terrorists will succeed in destroying India as we dream of it.

The initiative for all this must come from the IM community. Question is, how, and do "they" have leaders far-sighted and brave enough to do a Kemal Attaturk to their "own" community? Time is running out for all of us.


Welcome to the tavern. Why should the IM community change anything? Where is the danger, prodding or impetus for them to look for the next Ataturk? Importantly, is the IM community monolithic and all knowing and approving of their terror spreading cousins? I would think not and the vast majority of the IM are just as helpless and without any say in this as the rest of India.

Waiting for enlightenment in IM community I am afraid is no solution, just as looking for enlightenment in rest of India. We have wrong sets of incentives and disincentives in the current society to change the behavior. There needs to be a radical adjustment in our polity and governance to achieve a strong and safe India.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby saip » 14 Sep 2008 22:56

Del
Last edited by saip on 14 Sep 2008 23:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby enqyoob » 14 Sep 2008 22:57

There needs to be a radical adjustment in our polity and governance to achieve a strong and safe India.


I would be very interested in hearing an expanded definition of this. Why would someone like urself, a realist who sees the futility of waiting for Utopian solutions like the IM community coming to its senses, argue for the above, unless s(he) has a clear vision of this succinct solution? Please tell us your vision of the solution.

Who will make the "radical adjustment in our polity"? How radical? Suspend the Constitution to Save the Nation, like what goes on west of the LOC? "Strong and safe India" - what does that mean? Safe for whom and from what? Safe from government abuse of power? Safe from mob rule? Or only safe from random bombs?

Can this be done without a "monolithic" majority? Or how do u propose to achieve a monolithic majority? What are the right incentives and disincentives to bring about, and how would you bring these about?

Thanks! I await the solution.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby harbans » 14 Sep 2008 23:08

Tackling the ideology of Islam: How hard is it?

LK Advani spent a lot of years hating Muslims instinctively. He gave fiery anti-muslim speeches in rallies leading to the destruction of Babri Masjid. Yet in 40 years of his carreer he missed out some truths. He went to Pakistan and was awed by the hospitality lavished and praised Jinnah. In his quest to be seen as more secular at a rally in Chennai he declared "Geeta, Granth, Koran ek he cheez bolte hai". I could have forgiven him for praising Jinnah. But the Chennai statement immediately made me realize that LKA knew nothing about Islams ideology. So LKA comes dangerously close to playing into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists and he's done so on occassions.

All those BJP fringe types who did not understand Islamic ideology and based on instinctive hatred for Muslims indulged in riots played into the hands of Islamists without even knowing as much.

Confronting Islams ideology and not musilms will not lead to communal situations as witnessed. Confronting Muslims and not Islamic ideology will lead to communal situations without any chance of winning. This is what most 'Hindu nationalists' fail to understand. Many of these communal Hindu moralists actually take a leaf out of Islams morality. They are a mirror image of that hatred at times.

A small statement from a Modi or a Thackeray that 'Islams main plank is Jihad and that poses a problem for Hindu's in India' or that 'Terrorists are following Koran' will lead to massive debate within all kinds of media. It will put the moderate sections of Muslim population many who've probably never read the Koran in the defensive. Let them explain. Let a debate range. That is just one small example how to start tackling offensive to Kafir Islamic ideology. To tell Muslims that YES there are passages in the Koran and Hadith extremely offensive to Kafirs. That these passages are what motivate terrorists. If such debates start off in main stream media, it's going to make a BIG difference.

Trust me, nothing else will.
Last edited by harbans on 14 Sep 2008 23:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby Sanjay M » 14 Sep 2008 23:11

narayanan wrote:That is precisely what I would support, as long as it is a disciplined effort with carefully drawn bounds. For instance, "Demand Uniform Civil Code, so torch some businesses" is not a tolerable option - the guys who do this should be shot on sight.

My problem is also that "waiting around for the next prophet" is a non-starter, so the nation must move towards a situation that ENABLES such a "prophet" to arise and induce a following that argues for common sense and real "EQUALITY" not "complete freedom to be 8th century barbarians while enjoying on-demand IIT, IIM and medical college admission".

At present, the only thing that I can see happening, that MAY have a chance of inducing this, is the rise to power of someone who scares the Pu out of all communities. And that is very unfortunate.

As for "BJP CLAMMERING FOR", let me gently point out the obvious - that in 6 years of "power", the BJP did NOTHING of the sort - no move towards repealing 370, and for that matter, no attempt to debunk the Sachar Commission report. No move towards a Uniform Civil Code. No attempt to enforce the laws against secessionists.. no nothing. No relief for the Kashmiri Pandits. So I wonder what is the point of even hoping for another rise of the BJP. In fact, the BJP are indeed the forces that started this "Insaniyat" have-u-hugged-a-terrorist today culture. If TSP had tried what they tried in 1999, when Indira G was in power, "Pakistan" today would be a refugee camp west of the Sindhu river.


You cannot simply limit your perceptions of nationalism to the BJP's track record. Nationalism is an ideology, and your assumption that BJP is perfect represenation of that ideology is questionable. Just because BJP didn't do something doesn't mean it's not worth doing for the nationalist cause.

Likewise, US conservatives don't want conservatism purely judged on Nixon's infamous acts and omissions.

Unfortunately, nationalists have often been thwarted by the lack of sufficient parliamentary mandate, and parliamentary deadlock. I think BJP made some excellent progress in breaking the deadlock/stalemate by breaking up existing states and creating new ones. This to me is the best path for unjamming the logjam of clashing interest groups -- by separating them into separate states. Just like when 2 small children are locked in a scratch-and-bite melee, the solution is to break them apart and send them to separate corners. Likewise, break up the non-performing states into separate new states, and let them live or die on their own efforts.

Even now in the mortgage crisis, you can see that the most potent solutions by the US govt has been to break up non-performing investment banks and separate their good assets from their bad. By leaving the bad ones to suffer on their own, without dragging down the good ones, then the effects of their toxicity are contained.

So I am very glad that BJP, while not being able to rescind Art370 or implement Uniform Civil Code outright, has at least made sideways progress that will navigate us around our deadlocks and towards these goals. They have harnessed entropy to advantage, for once.

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Re: Blasts in delhi

Postby sanjaykumar » 14 Sep 2008 23:17

A small statement from a Modi or a Thackeray that 'Islams main plank is Jihad and that poses a problem for Hindu's in India' or that 'Terrorists are following Koran' will lead to massive debate within all kinds of media. It will put the moderate sections of Muslim population many who've probably never read the Koran in the defensive. Let them explain. Let a debate range. That is how one example how to start tackling offensive to Kafir Islamic ideology. To tell Muslims that YES there are passages in the Koran and Hadith extremely offensive to Kafirs. That these passages are what motivate terrorists. If such debates start off in main stream media, it's going to make a BIG difference.


But even here in this august forum this approach is censored lest the feelings of a particular community be hurt.


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