Blasts in delhi

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G Subramaniam
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by G Subramaniam »

Stop blaming the mullah

The mullah has influence over madrasas and illiterate muslims
Even if the mullah is muzzled, educated muslims can read the koran and hadith and what it prescribes to kafirs

SIMI consists of educated muslims


IMHO, the main culprit is the muslim masses, who enmasse riot when SIMI terrorists are arrested
If these rioting muslim masses felt pain as in curfew and cut off of water and electricity
and maybe standing orders for police firing whenever these masses resist arrest of terrorist
things will improve
Paul
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by Paul »

These blasts are the first advance warning of the horrendous carnage that will come to our borders when the islamic emirate is formalized along the banks of the indus.

SIMI, Indian Mujahideen etc. will be for the taliban what the rohillas were for Ahmed Shah Abdali. The similarities are too striking to be ignored. They are the al-ansars for the islamic ghazis.

India needs to beef up it's paramiltary and state intelligence capabilties to meet the fast approaching threat. Over time this threat will converge with the EJ and naxal menace in the east to form the perfect storm.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by shiv »

I see a strange connection between 2 unconnected posts quoted below
narayanan wrote: 2. The premise of the terrorists is that Indian "communal forces" can be played like puppets on strings, obediently amplifying any destruction that tiffin-carrier bombs can cause, by using gas cylinders, trishools, pickaxes and PWD (pregnant-woman-disemboweling, see shiv copyright). This then is amplified, with or without factual basis, by the armies of the Sixth Column inside and outside India - the Booker Prize winners, Boob-of-The-Month Award winners, the Magsaysay Award winners, the Tippu Sultan Religious Tolerance Award Winners. .
and
RayC wrote: Then the Prophet asked him what would he do if he couldn't find the appropriate solution or answer in the Quran. Jabal said that he would refer to the traditions of the Prophet. The Prophet again asked him what he would do if he couldn't find any answer or solution in the traditions. Jabal replied that he will use his own judgment which was approved by the Prophet.
The Hindu population in India has been subjected to the following inputs from secular Indians and " the Booker Prize winners, Boob-of-The-Month Award winners, the Magsaysay Award winners, the Tippu Sultan Religious Tolerance Award Winners."

1) You are biased bigots who discriminate against castes and Muslims
2) You are violent and uncivilized
3) You should lie back and take what you get. Didn't Gandhi tell you that?

As I see it what the Indian population is doing is actually following the Mahomet's common-sense statement: "Use your own judgement".

In other words, by using their judgement much of the Hindu population of India believe that Muslims are violent grabbers and whiners who will kill at will. But the Hindu population also feel that since they are themselves are violent bigots as they have been taught - they must not do that. They must not kill back. So we see a lot less open attacks on suspect Muslims than there might have been, For the sake of tolerance and secularism.

But the animosity is hidden and reflects in things like whether Shabana Azmi gets a house for rent or not in Mumbai.

The Indian government and the secular elites of India including Kuldip Nayar, and the "the Booker Prize winners, Boob-of-The-Month Award winners, the Magsaysay Award winners, the Tippu Sultan Religious Tolerance Award Winners." do not recognise or understand the dynamic. Like "Hindu liberal" diagram I have linked from the "Islamic extremism" thread - these worthies find themselves unable to hold Islam by the throat and nail it as the ideology that preaches violence, but they cannot stop it when people at large do exactly that. Then they blame the Hindus and say that they are violent and bigoted.

India's pretend secularism is as guilty as Islam in creating confusion as to what is right and what is wrong.

Indian Muslims will not be blamed for terrorism. Islam will be blamed as long as Islamic extremists perpetrate these acts and show that this is all they are capable of doing in dozens of countries in the world. islam needs a reformation, a makeover. But I must point out here that I have already acccused the Indian population of scoring 0-2 in the "awareness of what is what in the world". The ummah in general as almost as bad, scoring 0-2 themselves and living lives not knowing what a murderous menace their own Islamic ideology is in the world.

But where the ummah in general scores better than th Indian population is that India produces self-flagellating "Booker Prize winners, Boob-of-The-Month Award winners,Magsaysay Award winners, Tippu Sultan Religious Tolerance Award Winners." who cannot differentiate between the blindlingly obvious truth of islam sponsored murder of innocents and the fiction they write.
SwamyG
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by SwamyG »

Bajrang Dal as in news

Look at what kind of news Bajrang Dal is attracting especially now. The above link is a google news search for the terms "Bajrang Dal". Brinda Karat wants them to put on terror watch list.

And here we are sipping chai-biscoot and analyzing IM and Hindus. It is like the "Chataranj ke Khiladi". We are sitting and talking, and the World is moving on with the usual.

In the past, it used to be some time before the Hindu organizations were being blamed, these days it is all done immediately. Once the blasts occur IM and pseudo-seculars begin their work on the dot and execute it brilliantly.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by shiv »

Image

Save and use.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by vsudhir »

Ayyo, that picture of Simran really broke my heart. Am a father of a little one myself and can't bear to see her crying for long for anything.

Made the unfolding dimensions of the human cost real, live and personal to someone far away from Delhi.

The victims of terror have to be made the face of our war against terrorism. Brings both compassion for the innocent and steely resolve against the guilty among the aam voter. No two ways about that.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by archan »

SwamyG wrote:Bajrang Dal as in news

Look at what kind of news Bajrang Dal is attracting especially now. The above link is a google news search for the terms "Bajrang Dal". Brinda Karat wants them to put on terror watch list.

And here we are sipping chai-biscoot and analyzing IM and Hindus. It is like the "Chataranj ke Khiladi". We are sitting and talking, and the World is moving on with the usual.

In the past, it used to be some time before the Hindu organizations were being blamed, these days it is all done immediately. Once the blasts occur IM and pseudo-seculars begin their work on the dot and execute it brilliantly.
My question is what do they do to counter the propaganda? and how effective is it? if they have a mission, public opinion about them is viral to achieve it. Not doing enough in that regard or failing consistently on it is not going to help their cause. This is a field where it does not matter what you are, but what you project yourself to be.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by ManuT »

GoI first business of the day should be fast track execution of Afzal Guru.

A stronger POTA is not needed. Re-orging the bribe taking, danda wielding, out of shape, no clue Indian police.
That will take 1000 years.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by SwamyG »

At times such as these we need to ponder on the great thoughts of intellectuals like K.Thappar.

Who is the real Hindu?
Does the VHP have the right to speak for you or I? Do they reflect our views? Do we endorse their behaviour? They call themselves the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, but who says they represent all of us? This Sunday morning, I want to draw a clear line of distinction between them and everyone else. My hunch is many of you will agree.

Let me start with the question of conversion — an issue that greatly exercises the VHP. I imagine there are hundreds of millions of Hindus who are peaceful, tolerant, devoted to their faith, but above all, happy to live alongside Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains and Jews. If any one of us were to change our faith how does it affect the next man or woman? And even if that happens with inducements, it can only prove that the forsaken faith had a tenuous and shallow hold. So why do the VHP and its unruly storm troopers, the Bajrang Dal, froth at the mouth if you, I or our neighbours convert? What is it to do with them?

Let me put it bluntly, even crudely. If I want to sell my soul — and trade in my present gods for a new lot — why shouldn’t I? Even if the act diminishes me in your eyes, it’s my right to do so. So if thousands or even millions of Dalits, who have been despised and ostracised for generations, choose to become Christian, Buddhist or Muslim, either to escape the discrimination of their Hindu faith or because some other has lured them with food and cash, it’s their right.

Arguably you may believe you should ask them to reconsider, although I would call that interference, but you certainly have no duty or right to stop them. In fact, I doubt if you are morally correct in even seeking to place obstacles in their way. The so-called Freedom of Religion Acts, which aim to do just that, are, in fact, tantamount to obstruction of conversion laws and therefore, at the very least, questionable.

However, what’s even worse is how the VHP responds to this matter. Periodically they resort to violence including outright murder. What happened to Graham Staines in Orissa was not unique. Last week it happened again. Apart from the utter and contemptible criminality of such behaviour, is this how we Hindus wish to behave? Is this how we want our faith defended? Is this how we want to be seen? I have no doubt the answer is no. An unequivocal, unchanging and ever-lasting NO!

The only problem is it can’t be heard. And it needs to be. I therefore believe the time has come for the silent majority of Hindus — both those who ardently practice their faith as well as those who were born into it but may not be overtly religious or devout — to speak out. We cannot accept the desecration of churches, the burning to death of innocent caretakers of orphanages, the storming of Christian and Muslim hamlets even if these acts are allegedly done in defence of our faith. Indeed, they do not defend but shame Hinduism. That’s my central point.

I’m sorry but when I read that the VHP has ransacked and killed I’m not just embarrassed, I feel ashamed. Never of being hindu but of what some Hindus do in our shared faith’s name.

This is why its incumbent on Naveen Patnaik, Orissa’s Chief Minister, to take tough, unremitting action against the VHP and its junior wing, the Bajrang Dal. This is a test not just of his governance, but of his character. And I know and accept this could affect his political survival. But when it’s a struggle between your commitment to your principles and your political convenience is there room for choice? For ordinary politicians, possibly, but for the Naveen I know, very definitely not.

So let me end by saying: I’m waiting, Naveen. In fact, I want to say I’m not alone. There are hundreds of millions of Hindus, like you and me, waiting silently — but increasingly impatiently. Please act for all of us.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by SwamyG »

archan wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Bajrang Dal as in news

Look at what kind of news Bajrang Dal is attracting especially now. The above link is a google news search for the terms "Bajrang Dal". Brinda Karat wants them to put on terror watch list.

And here we are sipping chai-biscoot and analyzing IM and Hindus. It is like the "Chataranj ke Khiladi". We are sitting and talking, and the World is moving on with the usual.

In the past, it used to be some time before the Hindu organizations were being blamed, these days it is all done immediately. Once the blasts occur IM and pseudo-seculars begin their work on the dot and execute it brilliantly.
My question is what do they do to counter the propaganda? and how effective is it? if they have a mission, public opinion about them is viral to achieve it. Not doing enough in that regard or failing consistently on it is not going to help their cause. This is a field where it does not matter what you are, but what you project yourself to be.
Desi media has a similar kujli like the USA media,to want to present the other side of the story, even when there is none. They drink their own kool aid, and start devoting time and effort to show casing the other side's view point. In a country of 1billion plus, it is easy to find always a legitimate story or two of IM suffering. And the desi media pick the lead and run it. They do it because they think they are the watch dog of secularism, democracy and ithyadi.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by archan »

Bajrang Dal etc. are organizations, unlike some of us who are powerless individuals. I agree about DDM but only blaming them won't work. I expect to see organizations fighting and they will get my support. I would like to see them get their point across as to what their thinking and ideology is and I am sure they will find enough takers among the 80+ Crore Hindus to be able to finance a national level media outlet, print and/or audio visual that will put nationalism above everything else. Sooner or later the dhimmified people will begin to get the point.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by shiv »

Hindus have been taught in the name of secularism to feel ashamed of the action of other Hindus, but to fail to complain when Islam hits out. Karan Thapar belongs to that category ad he does not even realise it - so deep is this horror at complaining about another religion while flagellating Hindus. That is why I would like to see an analysis of Hindu psyche to be read by our secular people.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by SwamyG »

Thapar does not mind selling of the soul. There is a marketing campaign going on, and he does not object one entity attempting to sell their snake-oil. But when another entity want to increase their sales, and create their own marketing campaign then he considers it as an interference. He wants the Hindus to take it lying down.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by SSridhar »

N. Ram has found the correct reason for terror
In many areas scarred by the appalling communal violence, SIMI is seen as an armed militia defending a besieged and vulnerable community — not as a criminal organisation that must be crushed. While this perception is profoundly misplaced, its existence points to the wellsprings of rage fed by India’s depressing failure to act against the perpetrators of Hindu fundamentalist violence. Central and State governments have, for the most part, failed to ensure the equity promised by the Constitution to Muslims, a reality driven home by actor Shabana Azmi’s pained reflections on her inability to purchase a home in Mumbai. No great intelligence is needed to see that the jihadists are working against the interests of India’s 160 million Muslims. Islamist terrorism, as the cleric Mehmood Madani pointed out a in a recent interview to this newspaper, threatens to snuff out the hard-won gains of a new generation of Muslims who have defied the odds to emerge as successful entrepreneurs and professionals. But the stark fact is that there can be no peace without justice — a proposition civil society, administrators, and policy-makers must reflect and act on if India is to win the war against Islamist terrorism.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by nkumar »

One aspect of this round of blasts in Delhi is the swiftness with which the administration is acting. They will soon apprehend the culprits and I predict that the case will be solved within 2-3 weeks by Delhi police unlike the earlier blasts in UPA regime. If not, then BJP will crucify Congress in the coming elections by the terrorism rhetoric. There is tremendous pressure on the Congress to match the efficiency of Modi in finding the culprits.

IMO, there is no easy solution to this menace, it has to be fought on many fronts. (1) Intelligence level, there has to be an integrated system which can monitor internet & telephone calls. (2) Monitor all mosques, especially the one in sensitive areas like Azamgarh. Identify the Muslims sects which are not hostile to their country, give them jobs in IB and use them to infiltrate terror cells. (3) Special fast track courts for terrorism related incidents, it should be made mandatory to deliver judgments within 2 years. (4) Covert warfare, each blast in India has to be matched with at least 3 blasts in Pak and/or Bangladesh, we need to raise the costs for Pak for meddling in India's internal affairs, at the moment this is a costless activity for them with positive returns. War with Pakistan is a high cost solution for India and I personally am not in favor of it. Hajpayee realized it and regretted not revamping the covert warfare arm of RAW, which was defanged by the Gujral Doctrine, whatever that is. (5) At the media level, we need to show the same resolve as shown by US after 9/11 and stop talking about this nonsense of Human Rights, that can't be the basis of repealing terror laws. Media discourse is totally hijacked by Human Right/Mombatti Wallas.

But sadly all this is not possible without the political resolve at the center. Current regime at center and many state govts. have strong conflict of interest in acting tough against terror. First comes the will to fight, then strategy/efficiency to fight has to be developed over a period of time.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by Airavat »

Thapar is actually a dhimmi, who has the audacity to speak on behalf of "Hindus".

And as some members predicted, Congress(I) spokesman Kapil Sibal, in a debate with Thapar and Arun Jaitley brought up all sorts of unrelated issues (Kandhamal, Amarnath, POTA, Article 370) to fight Jaitley's charge that the UPA was soft on Islamist terror due to its vote-bank compulsions.

Towars the end he was incoherent and making absolutely no sense!
shiv
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by shiv »

SwamyG wrote:Thapar does not mind selling of the soul. There is a marketing campaign going on, and he does not object one entity attempting to sell their snake-oil. But when another entity want to increase their sales, and create their own marketing campaign then he considers it as an interference. He wants the Hindus to take it lying down.

IMO it goes a tad further than that. he believes that taking it lying down is the hallmark of Hindus - the ideal that they should aim for.

Under the circumstances, his question "Who is the real Hindu" should apply to himself too. He is painting Hindus with common sense as extremists. Everyone else in India thinks that he can grab what he wants while others must shut up and be cowed down. Thapar feels that only Hindus should shut up and be cowed down. He represents the failure of thought and foresight among the secular thinkers of India.

They ape Gandhi in language but do not have his guile.

In fact the words "I am an atheist" reminded me that for many secular Hindus "atheism" is a garb that allows them to selectively be critical of Hindus while keeping mum about Islam. Atheist Hindus are often the "Secular Hindu liberals" whom I wrote about some months ago. The biggest pseudos among atheists are Hindus who declare themselves atheist
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by Abhi_G »

Er...Shiv, Thapar is like his father only!
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by pradeepe »

Mr. Shivraj Patil is the most clueless and ineffective person we have ever had at that post.

I hope this is where the PCness and kidgloves of our people come off when dealing with the scrounge of islamic terrorism. But before that, the first course of action IMHO should be in dealing with our biggest keedas - cheeda purugulu - that are the commies. In a way, the commies and the psec crowd are the ones which form the backbone of the islamist terrorists. Even after actions like these, they find a way to somehow rationalize these acts. May they rot in hell, or better still, may they lose their loved ones to the same murderers they sympathize with.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by shiv »

SSridhar wrote:N. Ram has found the correct reason for terror
In many areas scarred by the appalling communal violence, SIMI is seen as an armed militia defending a besieged and vulnerable community — not as a criminal organisation that must be crushed. While this perception is profoundly misplaced, its existence points to the wellsprings of rage



Rage?

What do you think people in India feel when they are faced with random bomb attacks.

He chooses to speak of Muslim rage without being critical of terror from Islamic ideology. And he feeds Hindu rage and criticises it in the same breath- in yet another example of the failure of secularists to think rather than parrot Gandhiism.

That's 2 on this page
1) Karan Thapar
2) N.Ram

People are not supposed to feel rage at Islam sponsored terrorism. Peopel are not supposed to talk about it because they will feed Muslim rage. Organizations such as SIMI thrive because they know that secular India will protect them and justify their actions by criticizing Hindus less than 24 hours after the kill innocent people in the name of Islam.

N.Ram is long past his "use by" date.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by ManuJ »

BSR Murthy wrote:The radical adjustment I would like to see is (actually many of these are not radical at all, but, commonsensical and necessary for survival of the nation):

1. Every citizen of India will have equal rights and responsibilities. There will be uniform civil code. No group or region makes laws and the Indian constitution is the supreme law of the land.
...
...
But.....The problem is that all those suggestions actually make sense, and most successful democracies have already implemented them. If India were to also implement them, it would become a true democracy and the politicians will lose a great amount of power which they have assiduously assimilated over the last 60 years. The political class of India as a whole may be for economic liberation of India, but it is definitely not in favor of political freedom. They are the chosen few, the new masters and rajas of independent India. Those lucky few who push their way into the inner circle of almost unlimited power, then dutifully start pushing out.

The only thing that will work is if a new party of fresh, uncorrupted, unpolluted people with enough common sense is somehow swept into power. I think a lot of us thought BJP to be that party, but it has largely disappointed. It wants incremental change, but what is needed is a revolution.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by SwamyG »

You know all the tough questions are going to be posed just to the Hindus. Conversion issues are engulfing (borrow a news source's words) in Karanatka. And already Hindus are being made to answer and protest Bajrang Dal's actions. People talk about asking the IM the tough questions, and reforming Islam here. But the World behavior is different. So the conversions keep happening and disturbing the civil population, and when people get annoyed by this and raise questions - they get threatened and forcing them to retaliate.

And there was a ban to talk about Evanjihadists here at BRF. It is just pathetic.

Is the next Vishnu avatar just waiting to happen?
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by enqyoob »

BSRM:

A good solid list. Excellent starting point for discussion of action items, thanks.

SwamyG, I know the tactic you describe. The counter is easy: I DON'T endorse stuff about discriminating against anyone based on birth, caste, religion of birth etc. I have absolutely no problem pointing to my own record of equal-opportunity musharraf-soccer in that respect. It has nothing to do with any "religious book" that I read or believe in. Period.

Now I turn around and ask the Boob-of-the-Month types: WHEN have YOU condemned Islamic terrorism and the violence preached in Islam?

So IMO, this is why we need to be tough and clear about repudiating practices and people who don't make sense. But we don't have to be self-flagellating or apologetic about our beliefs at all.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by gandharva »

Is the next Vishnu avatar just waiting to happen?
Vishnu comes only for his devotees abiding in Dharma. I don't think Vishnu cares about dhimmies and Gangadins who milk Dharma on daily basis.

Cheers :)
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by Philip »

We shouldn't mix up the issue of Islamist terrorism with the activities/controversy of the Bajrang Dal/VHP and attacks against Christian outfits and conversions.Let's first concentrate upon India's "war on terror".

The hard fact is that we're at war.A new war has been unleashed against India by the ISI,who are a "state within a state",that is Pak.Emboldened by the success of their child,the Taliban in Afghanistan,The ISI has embarked upon opening another "all-India" front in the war against India.At the moment,under intense US pressure for the Paki army to counter the Taliban and Islamist Al Q forces fighting NATO and the US from the FATA/NWF territory (which I call "Terroristan") ;under increasing US air attacks,an idle Paki army will find it very difficult not to succumb to US pressure to control the Islamist forces fighting the US/NATO.Another front of tension has to be opened so that they can "legitimately" avoid sending troops to Terroristan and fight the Islamist forces.

The recent spate of cross border firing by the Paki army,infiltration of terrorists,resurgence of protests and violence in Kashmir has been part of the plan.While the ISI plans to render J&K ungovernable,it has also opened the all-India front to demoralise the GOI,which it hopes will succumb to pressure to "compromise" on J&K and other issues.Zardari's latest statement that he hopes on progress on Siachen and Kashmir is either becaiuse he is in the "loop" of the strategy,or because he has to be weakened by failure on achieving an accord with India.This wave of terror is because the ISI sees the govt. of MM Singh as being the weakest ever govt. that has ruled India since independence,that has no spine or the symbols of manhood between its legs.The way the GOI has succumbed to the US over the "Nuclear Deal" has proved its character beautifully! It hopes that with this terror spreading across India by its "local branch",the SIMI (and the letters of "SIMI" also comprise those of the "ISI" too,no coincidence here!),we will decrease our involvement in supporting the Afghan govt.,a worry to Pak of losing its influence in that country to India,whose assistance is a positive development in that country,the development/road projects giving the Afghans another route of supply through Iran,avoiding Paki territory.

The GOI of the day is clueless,spineless and shameless ,also suffering from a drought of ideas as to how to counter this campaign of all-India terror.Our Home Minister truly is consistent with his repeated failures to prevent these attacks and from his abject performance appears to be truly "at home" with the crisis! Our National Security Adviser has spent more time rushing around securing the govts. votes in parliament and confabulating with officials abroad pimping for the N-deal,than rooting out the terror unleashed by Pak through its local cells.Above all,the PM has expressed in the strongest way possible,his failure in guaranteeing the security of the country,acknowledged over the centuries and millenia as being the "first duty of a king".He is unable to handle the outbreak of communal tension within the country as well.Obsessed with the "promise" he made to George Bush and his great "victory" of the N-deal,being seen now in all its glory as a deal of duplicity that will drastically weaken the country's strategic deterrent and bind us into a pact of neo-colonial nuclear slavery,he is the 21st century's closest parallell to that of Roman emperor Nero,who fiddled while Rome burned.Sadly,our "Singh is King", can neither fiddle or sing and entertain the doomed masses! He resembles a marionette,that springs to life only when the strings are pulled by his master or mistress.Given his mistresses' Roman ancestry,one shouldn't find it a surprise that our latter day Nero is also
"singhing" in his inimitable style,while India burns,Christians are being thrown to the lions in Orissa and Karnataka and the barbarians are at the gates of our borders!
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by chandrabhan »

While the duplicity of Politicians is not in doubt, I am very surprised at the less than subdued reaction of our 'secular, intellectual elite'. I am itching to give them a new phrase from now onwards , " Secular blasts ". Why not ? We have allowed ourselves to listen and nod in agreement to these Men and Women of extraordinary knowledge and talent a great many times.
Gentlemen of the forum, This country is secular only till the time we are a Sanatan/Hindu majority. I am an avowed Athiest but I am willing to defend this way of life even with my life or other lives. Only this way of life has allowed me to say without batting an eyelid that I am an athiest. So all you secular types just Shut up. I have travelled 38 countries and I am yet to see a truly secular muslim country ( Turkey being a little exception but there also you hardly see any temples/churches - I lved in Istanbul for a month).
The danger to the civil societies is not from Islamists or terrorists,whichever way you want to look at them( I am yet to read about a Christian/Hindu/Jew terrorist blowing up in suicide), but it is from these secular intellectuals. Ask the guy on street, How much desparate he is to get this terrorism off his back.
Since I have not been able to follow up on the newsout here in China, Pls do let me know the statements from our 'Secular' leaders and intellectuals. I have question, What will our intellectuals say when they loose one of their Kid/father/mother in thse blasts?
These people talk about Muslim anger, what about Hindu anger? If we don't act then we have no right to exist as a civilisation. As I once said , "Terror can only be met with greater terror".
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by Manu »

@ Philip:

"While India burns,Christians are being thrown to the lions in Orissa and Karnataka and the barbarians are at the gates of our borders!"

Good to know you are keeping tabs on all the important issues facing the nation.

Unfortunately, the theory you propound only dances around the proverbial mulberry bush in utter anguish. BR itself is partly to blame. A Sacred cow we cannot touch.

Barbarians are not AT the gates, they are breaking down the defences from within.

Till this Giant, Pink Elephant in the room is discussed, all talk is useless. The enemy is within and has been for a very long time.
RayC
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by RayC »

Indian Muslims will not be blamed for terrorism. Islam will be blamed as long as Islamic extremists perpetrate these acts and show that this is all they are capable of doing in dozens of countries in the world.
Strictly speaking, the Quran as compiled did not actually contain a comprehensive legal code. Nor did the Quran provide express answers to all the problems that are intrinsic to an organized society. (In this regard, it does not differ from holy books of other religions.) In the era of the Prophet, most of the legal injunctions of the Quran were basically pre-Islamic tribal custom given an Islamic sensibility and moral legitimacy. This circumstance helps to explain why so much of sharia (Islamic law) is customary (’urf).

Only about 80 Quranic verses are concrete legal pronouncements.

It should be noted that during the Medina epoch (632-661), the men who had been close companions of the Prophet and became his caliphs assumed the task of applying sharia, such as it was. Their rulings were
largely ad hoc, but they were, for the most part, consistent with the principles enunciated by Muhammad, particularly those of proportionality and fairness in matters of inheritance. From the time of these “Rightly
Guided” Caliphs, it can be said that a Muslim society has been defined as one that adheres to sharia.

Even in the early phases of Islam’s advancement, there developed many “schools” of sharia-“schools” only in the loosest sense. More accurately, they were the adherents of ideas propagated by individual scholars of
law whose theories were derived from a combination of the particular way they parsed the Quran and their views about customary tribal and social traditions. This was a matter of personal reasoning - ra’y - that
often led, in time, to consensus on dogma among ’ulama (religious scholars, theologians) in a given locale. In this way, legal doctrine was formulated and schools of thought based on particular theories, octrines,
and interpretations emerged. While the movement toward the formulation of permanent named schools - what became known as madhahib (sing. madhhab) - occurred without deliberate direction or design, it did proceed, roughly, in stages. As the body of legal ideas of a given school crystallized, those doctrines were attached to the individual religious scholar or theologian (’alim, plural ’ulama) who formulated them and thus gave his name to the particular school. The closer that ’alim could be traced to the time of the Prophet or to Muhammad himself or his companions, that greater authority would be attached to his ideas and pronouncements and, by extension, to the school based on his teachings. But for formal schools of law to
take root and be effective, there had to be a compendium of its philosophy and doctrines that would ensure consistency of application and would serve as the source for teaching the school’s principles. That event had to await the outcome of a new controversy. During the time of both the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties, the practice of ra’y (personal reasoning) remained widespread. Those ’ulama who advocated making the Medina period the ground root of legal interpretation came to oppose the practice of ra’y. They argued that the only true source of law was, first, the Quran then the words, actions, and precedents of the Prophet, that is, his sunna (habitual practices and actions) and hadith, (traditions/sayings). They also insisted that the best authorities for those truths were Muhammad’s companions and the most upright among his immediate contemporaries. The sunna and hadith of the Prophet were and are still today regarded as the only genuine source of Islamic law other than the Quran.

The advocates of hadith, in the long course of their doctrinal wrangle with the practitioners of ra’y, produced a prodigious number of fabricated hadith in their effort to make traditionalist dogma the standard jurisprudence throughout the Islamic realm. It was in the midst of this controversy that a scholar of Medina named Malik ibn Anas, who died in 796, composed the first compendium of Islamic law, the Muwatta’. The Muwatta’ was little more than a manual of jurisprudence that contained the known precedents that Malik interpreted using ra’y and the traditions of Medina. This was the foundation on which the first of the four dominant schools of Islamic jurisprudence-the Maliki madhhab (or Medina School)-rested. (The other
three schools were the Shafi’i, Hanafi, and Hanbali.) As Islam became an urban movement in the course of its expansion, this same phenomenon was reflected in the evolution of its jurisprudence. Most of the developments in Islamic law occurred in urban settings. Consequently, sharia and its institutions, as they were formed and re-formed, increasingly mirrored urban culture and sensibilities, despite some continuing influence of tribal traditions. The implication of this situation was that it would have been much more difficult, if not impossible, for the caliphs to administer their complex, multi-cultural realms without the advantages offered by cities. It was cities that produced the literate and skilled manpower, the schools, mosques, communications, centers of learning and training, bureaucracies and other institutions essential for the creation and governance of empires. Cultures coalesced in cities. In cities, scholars in many fields of
learning gathered, studied, researched and experimented, debated, and propagated and exchanged ideas. It was in cities that the various Islamic schools of law were created.

Theorists of the previously established schools, the Maliki and the Hanafi, found ways to compromise with Shafi’i ’s dogma by a combination of interpretation and the application of legal principles they claimed could override the authority of the hadith. Those principles were, for the Hanafis, the cogency of “juristic preference” (istihsan) and, for the Malikis, the believability of “the consensus of the Medina scholars.” Eventually, the Hanbalis accepted the reality that analogy was a jurisprudential necessity, while the Zahiris refused any alterations to their system and ultimately suffered extinction. The surviving four schools of sharia, Maliki, Hanafi, Shafi’i, and Hanbali, continue today to constitute the principal varied approaches to
sunni Islamic law.

In this context, it is useful to point out that the Hanafi school of law was generally preferred by most Muslim rulers, particularly the Ottoman sultans who adopted that madhhab as the Empire’s dominant body of
jurisprudence because the Hanafi system of law tended to give them greater leeway in exerting their authority. This quality was embedded in the Hanafi treatment of human judgment (ijtihad). Rather than insisting on rigid application of analogy, Hanafi jurists permitted modest pliancy in the use of human reasoning or judgment in the interpretation of the Quran and the application of sharia. The Issues of Divine Perfection,
Reason, and Consensus in Islamic Law The aforementioned disjunction between the utter perfection of God’s assertions and the imperfect ability of the human mind always to grasp their true meaning with certainty brought to the forefront the issue of independent human reasoning (ijtihad). Inevitably, no single doctrinal formula such as Shafi’i’s could remain the standard for very long, owing mainly to the necessity of applying sharia across very widely situated lands with variegated cultural and religious traditions that had been Islamicized with various degrees of success.

While the process of reasoning had to be used, it was expected to follow a particular order in the solution of legal problems. First recourse was to the Quran, then to reasoning by analogy (qiyas), then to independent judgment (ijtihad). Because the very notion of human reasoning used in conjunction with the divine word caused considerable argument, it led ultimately to the acceptance of a new fundamental adjunct to classical Islamic legal theory, the doctrine of ijma’-the consensus of qualified jurists (fuqaha) in a given time and place.

Such consensus was believed to be infallible. By the end of the 10th century, independent judgment (ijtihad) ceased to be accepted practice. The passing of ijtihad and the universal implantation of consensus wiped out the bases of Shafi’i’s doctrine-traditional customs (’urf) and independent judgment or reasoning by individual jurists. The implications of this development were that Islamic law, having come from God, was changeless and sacrosanct, that true moral behavior and values were beyond the concoctions of mere human thought or experience. Only God could designate what was good or evil as was revealed to Muhammad, the last of the true prophets. Consequently, after the death of the Prophet, the divine will could, hypothetically, no longer be communicated to humankind. However, such rigidity in the application of sharia was incompatible with the demands of governing a multi-cultural, politically variegated Islamic empire. The caliphs and sultans consequently devised ways to inject degrees of flexibility into the system of sharian jurisprudence, often through the instrumentality of what might be called creative misinterpretation — but with authority.

Therefore, it will be observed that what was quite rationale was corrupted by the influential amongst the Moslem people.
Inder Sharma
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by Inder Sharma »

The Indian Mujahideen has clearly expressed its favorites as far as Indian Media is concerned.

IM apparently is mightly pissed at Times of India and its news agencies for not covering them enough; or for covering Hindus sympathetically (hardly, I think)

Equally, it has quoted The Hindu, Indian Express and Hindustan Times as far more creditable sources of information.

So, we know whom to read: in order to know, understand and appreciate ‘Indian Mujahideen’s’ agenda.

My call to you all is: please boycott these news sources and Write letters to their sponsors that they stand to lose an extremely vociferous customer if they don’t desist in providing ads to these propagandeer’s.

Finally, One thing is clear that these IM guys are sensitive to Media coverage. A concerted media criticism and ridicule would definitely rake these guys hard and mighty into committing a blunder.

But Alas! We have a Sonia Managed Media

Cry! My beloved Motherland! Cry!
RayC
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by RayC »

I would not blame the politicians for their being moribund and impotent. They are prisoners of the political culture inherited during the birth of the Nation and corrupted viciously along the way to India’s ‘tryst with destiny’, as so interestingly made popular by Nehru.

The Gandhian philosophy, borrowed from Jesus Christ, insisted that one should turn the cheek for another tight slap! But, clever and savvy that these from the plough or one generation from the plough politicians (who nowadays speak quaint English as Laloo which neither he understands nor those who are listening), they have finetuned into an art and converted Gandhispeak into votespeak. The masters of obfuscation, Abhisek Singhvi, Kapil Sibal and Jayanti Natarajan have given Doublespeak a sheen of political respectability, while Manish Tiwari drawls lullabies as if it was too much of a strain to part his lips let alone let any sound emanate! On the other hand we have the professors of national pride, Rudy and Ravi Shakar Prasad hectoring the nation in stentorian tones that even wakes up Tiwari! While Amar Singh hunts around for lucrative deals and Mayawati for better opportunities for herself and her new found power in wealth and politics. Mamta Banerjee seeks how she can be the new Jyoti Basu to take Bengal and India to the Stoneage. It must be remembered that the Stoneage did not end because there was a dearth of stones! Maybe she thinks Tata means Tata, goodbye! Her knowledge of the English synatax does give reasons to believe that she is self taught like Laloo and Kapil Dev!

One can’t even blame Islam because Islam was hijacked in the 10th Century where logic gave way to the infallibility of the Islamic Law as the voice of God. Thus, mediaevalism and tribalism became sacrosanct without any concern that time moves on and societal requirement changes. Time has stood still for Islam or so it appears.

The religious turmoil underway in India is but a corollary to allowing a free for all for religious groups, be they of any religion. And why so? Because of the votespeak that allows the honest, the corrupt, the law abiding, the murderers, high class and the low class, the beggars and the rich all to get elected to the Parliament to satiate their personal agenda, be it social service or making a quick buck that would see through their 14 generations in luxury, forget about merely comfort!

Indians are not at war with the ISI. India is at war with its own conscience.

If India inherits supine, spineless, gutless govts that are afraid of their own shadow, why blame others?

India has to awaken and cleanse itself!
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by chandrabhan »

shiv wrote:Hindus have been taught in the name of secularism to feel ashamed of the action of other Hindus, but to fail to complain when Islam hits out. Karan Thapar belongs to that category ad he does not even realise it - so deep is this horror at complaining about another religion while flagellating Hindus. That is why I would like to see an analysis of Hindu psyche to be read by our secular people.
Hi Shiv Sir,
I think time has come to have a serious debate on the issues of conversions. The reason why India and Africa has become a battleground for these religious zealots is that there is no effort to save the indiginous religions and cultures. Africa, B,cos they can't afford to have any say to the poor hungry tribes. India, b'cos our left opiumated intellectuals and politicians could not care less as they want to be in sync to the 'Liberal, educated' world.
Nobody realises that these conversions brings a huge sociao economic costs. Just for example :
On my last visit to village in UP , 2 of the Lower caste families decided to convert and became christians. They were demanding rights for a separate cremation ground, asking land for a church and refised to drink water from the same handpump as their kith and kin. This put pressure on a vilage which has just 4 acres of land for common usage in a village of 2500 population. The DM was a christian and thus ensued a fight with Police leaving more than a dozen villagers in jail
and families destroyed.
All this is a village where there is a common school for all castes, common temple(only compulsion being bath) and common Panchayat ghar open to all. While i respect one's right to pray and choose their own way of life, they have no right to disturb other's way of life.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by chandrabhan »

All this talk of religion and secularism is making me more and more of aware of my own roots and question my dogmatism of being an Athiest. This all is making me feel guilty as I find my way of life being hijacked by these intellectual elite as if they represent my thoughts and the way they bash the majority community for asking their rights is pathetic.
This purile and beyond rational. Does secular means bashing the Hindus? I agree Ray sir, this is a battle for India's soul and it is a long haul.
RayC
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by RayC »

Let us look at conversion in a more realistic way.

How many really understand religion and it meanings? How many illiterate understand religion?

In today's hurly burly, how does religion help in eking an existence?

If someone is ready to give a better deal, be it cash, education, jobs, medical comfort, why should those who are struggling not jump to grab it?

Lets look at the educated as an example. Do the people not regularly change jobs whenever they feel stifled or when they are offered a better deal?

If the educated show no loyalty to their organisation and are instead self seeking, why blame the poor (who anyway have no clue of religion except that it a badge) if they jump for a better deal?

Does it mean that the flock must be kept together by threats or by browbeating or should it not be by giving the people a better deal to live better their otherwise miserable life?

That said, the majority should not be bashed or the minority appeased!

60 plus years is enough to have set the ground rules and the groud for a fair playing field.
chandrabhan
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by chandrabhan »

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/New ... 483557.cms

"NEW DELHI: Even as television channels aired bone-chilling frames of the mayhem caused by Saturday’s blasts, Union home minister Shivraj V Patil may have been busy raiding his wardrobe for clothes “suited” for the occasion. After all, it is not everyday that he gets an opportunity to showcase his painstakingly-tailored suits, mostly matched with same-colour shoes.

So, as the terrorists mocked at the law enforcement and intelligence agencies by triggering serial blasts, Mr Patil took a cue and turned a serial dresser to keep pace. On a day when you thought that the home minister of the country would be too busy with phones ringing around him, Mr Patil changed into at least three different suits in as many hours. Sporting a white suit at the CWC meeting at 6.30 pm, he seemed to have made a dash to his home soon after hearing of the blasts — to change into a dark-coloured suit, possibly for the benefit of the cameras waiting outside for his usual “run of the mill” byte. By 10.30 pm, when he arrived at the blast site for a customary inspection, he had found the time to change into a white suit yet again — no, not the one he wore at the CWC — to project a more solemn look. Of course, each look was completed with his perfectly coiffured and gelled hair.

And if wearing his incompetence on his full sleeves was not enough, the minister came up with an empty declarations to “punish the guilty” (What about the Samjhauta blasts, Mr Minister, where the trail remains completely dry even after six months?) and a rehearsed appeal to maintain calm and harmony. When 21 blasts hit Ahmedabad, killing 55 and injuring 100 barely two months ago, Mr Patil had accompanied UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi to the blast sites and made a “never again” declaration. Deja vu, since the same byte was vented after all the earlier blasts — at Hyderabad (Mecca Masjid,
Gokul Chaat Bhandar), Malegaon, Mumbai (local train blasts), Jaipur, Samjhauta, UP courts and Bangalore.

This is not all. While Union home secretary Madhukar Gupta has been advertising his cluelessness by saying that his ministry takes a lesson from each blast, minister of state for home Sriprakash Jaiswal on Saturday went a step further to shrug off responsibility. “India is a billion-plus country, we cannot have police at all the places,” he told reporters on Saturday night. He may have been right, but isn’t this the reason why the intelligence agencies are there. But, as experts say, the over-dependence of technical intelligence while ignoring the more effective human intelligence has seriously marred the agencies’ functioning.

The day after, the MHA brass and NSA held a security review in the wake of the blasts. A list of “dos and don’ts” for the states was thrashed out to help them prevent terror attacks. Mr Gupta also spoke of time-bound steps to secure Delhi and other cities. Well-sounding promises, but the fact that Mr Gupta describes each terror strike a lesson indicates that he is okay with a few more lessons before he gets his act right.

As for Mr Patil, he is going to have a tough time explaining the functioning of his ministry after the Delhi blasts. Ahmedabad investigations had thrown up clear leads about a plot to target the Capital. Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi had shared the information with the prime minister, the home minister, and the national security adviser, warning them that the plot to target Delhi could be in its final stages. Obviously, the warning failed to prompt the Centre to sit up and take note. Delhi Police commissioner admitted as much after the blasts, saying that the terrorists seemed to have taken advantage of the current “lean period” in security arrangements — between the Independence Day celebrations and the festive season around Diwali, the two occasions when the police bandobast is possibly the tightest — to retain the surprise element in their attack.

Mr Patil, in any case, never had any answer in the fight against terror. He is opposed to most of the tools that agencies must have to effectively tackle terror — he is against tough interrogation techniques, he is against smart laws, and even the use of harsh language against the evil-doers. And his breathtaking reckleness has left gigantic bull’s eyes on the backs of innocent citizens.

The home minister is not the only one obstructing the fight against terrorism. The country was witness to the maddening and outrageous spectacle of Congress and SP leaders travelling to the Azamgarh home of Ahmedabad blasts’ mastermind Abu Bashir to express solidarity with the family. "
RayC
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by RayC »

Shivraj Patil is a pathetic politician but a loyal servant of the Raj.
chandrabhan
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by chandrabhan »

RayC wrote:Let us look at conversion in a more realistic way.

How many really understand religion and it meanings?

In today's hurly burly, how does religion help in eking an existence?

If someone is ready to give a better deal, be it cash, education, jobs, medical comfort, why those who are struggling not jump to grab it?

Do the people not regularly change jobs whenever they feel stifled or when they are offered a better deal?

If the educated show no loyalty to their organisation and are instead self seeking, why blame the poor (who anyway have no clue of religion except that it a badge) if they jump for a better deal?

Does not keep the flock together by threats or by browbeating or by giving the people a better deal to live their otherwise miserable life?

That said, the majority should not be bashed or the minority appeased!

60 plus years is enough to have set the ground rules and the groud for a fair playing field.
Ray sir,
I agree that lure of the money, employment, education does play a role. However this goes against the fundamental principle of religion or Faith. Then the reason as you rightly pointed out is economic and not spiritual/Phlosophical then we must force the government to stop this sham. There is no soul involved..
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by Mathew G »

RayC wrote:Let us look at conversion in a more realistic way.

How many really understand religion and it meanings? How many illiterate understand religion?

In today's hurly burly, how does religion help in eking an existence?
Actually the difference lies in monotheism vs. polytheism. Polytheism is more tolerant and willing to absorb other faiths as there are different interpretations of one. It is evident how the Roman took the Greek pantheon as their own (Greek Eos, Vedic Ushas were incorporated into the Roman Aurora, Jupiter being Dis Pater etc), and even before that the Akkadian and Sumerian civilization borrowed different concepts from each other as neighboring religions (such as the godess Ishtar and Asherah, Astarte).
Monotheism on the other hand preaches adherence to only one God. Muslims have a fanatical dark approach to this as it is expressly stated in their Hadith and Qu’ran to do so; whereas the Evangelicals have long before dropped that approach in the medieval times but still today find it a duty spread (read *convert*) through their interpretation.
RayC wrote:If someone is ready to give a better deal, be it cash, education, jobs, medical comfort, why should those who are struggling not jump to grab it? Lets look at the educated as an example. Do the people not regularly change jobs whenever they feel stifled or when they are offered a better deal?
I couldn’t agree with these comments more. The obvious *carrot* for would-be converts is cash and acceptance as an equal. The same ambitions, we as NRIs have when we land in a foreign country, and goals all of us strive for (to be well respected, enough cash for our families sustenance).The quest for a higher meaning is secondary
The quest for a higher meaning is there only if your quest is genuinely spiritual. For that, you don’t need evangelicals to tell you anything – one can make one’s own mind up by themselves.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by Raghavendra »

Wow, thapar,n.ram and all communist nazis being called dhimmis. Once I got a warning from shiv saar for calling a dhimmi a dhimmi in my previous janma. Atlast something radically has changed in here that people are willing to call people for what they really are.

I will make another statement that again may not be liked.

Islam cannot be reformed. The only way to end terrorism is by declaring islam a criminal religion and asking muslims to quit islam or be ready to be treated as criminals.

If i as a person asked all people here to practise peadophilia,murder all homosexuals,rape all women not covered up in an tent, declare me as their prophet or get killed, pay jizya and live like a sub-human being then i would have been called a peadophile,muderer,religious bigot and all other adjectives that are in english.

But the same people are not ready to call mohammed for what he is really was. Until people start using words that fit the character of mohammed and islam then no progress can be made in the fight against terrorism also known as islam.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by Raghavendra »

RayC wrote:Lets look at the educated as an example. Do the people not regularly change jobs whenever they feel stifled or when they are offered a better deal?
Nice thinking, but when you change your job your new boss doesn't force you to murder you previous boss or rape his wife for not wearing hijab or the tent.

Another thing when you convert to islam there is no turning back. Once a muslim always muslim or you will be dead for apostasy.
RayC wrote:60 plus years is enough to have set the ground rules and the groud for a fair playing field.
It would be great if those rules are followed by other religions but when muslims vandalise temples by writing jai pakistan and making speeches every friday after the mid-noon prayers that all non-muslims are infidels and will goto hell. Now obviously you have a upper class upbringing and have not encountered these things which we face daily during our interaction with muslims.Things have taken such a turn that we cant even celebrate our independence day and hosting of the national flag without the muslims starting a riot.
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Re: Blasts in delhi

Post by Rupesh »

Raghavendra wrote: Islam cannot be reformed.

But the same people are not ready to call mohammed for what he is really was. Until people start using words that fit the character of mohammed and islam then no progress can be made in the fight against terrorism also known as islam.
True..Islam cannot be reformed or rather muslims will not permit any reform, they are still in the dark ages..

IMO all religious conversions should be restricted ( criteria for converting .. The person should be a graduate, he should be a tax payer..this will solve issue of tribal conversions.

Hindus should be debarred from converting to other religion as being a Hindu he/she can pray to any god/ semi god etc as his/her choice may be..

tax on conversion @ 10K per head for some really diehard fanatic

Reconversion back to original religion @ Re 1 per head..)
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