Terror Attacks in Mumbai

milindc
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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby milindc » 27 Nov 2008 16:48

Fire is raging in Taj 4th floor room. Where are Fire Fighters ?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby akumar » 27 Nov 2008 16:49

One piglet called Imarn babar talking to India TV from Nariman house. Sounds just likes Mush

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby JTull » 27 Nov 2008 16:49

Time to fire some Brahmos at that bunglow in Karachi.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Mathew G » 27 Nov 2008 16:49

NSG gone into Nariman house too! Excellent!

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby vishal » 27 Nov 2008 16:49

The media contingent outside the Taj has been asked sit down so they present a lower profile to the terrorists.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Suppiah » 27 Nov 2008 16:50

bart wrote:http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/27mumterror-terror-struck-foreigners-just-want-to-go-home.htm
Veronica Murphy, a British citizen, said, "I was lucky as I was only 100 metres away from the firing incident at Leopold Cafe [Images] in Colaba last night. I was on the periphery and I must tell you that Indians were very protective towards me and they ensured that we don't get hurt in any way."

Asked will she leave India, Murphy said, "No way. I am taking a train to south India tomorrow and I am not scared. Terrorism [Images] is everywhere in the world and even England [Images] was affected by that. You cannot allow these terrorists to rule and ruin your life. I will not allow that to happen."



Bravo Maam, you have an order of magnitude more humanity and courage that most of your leaders and media.


Modify that to OUR leaders...

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 27 Nov 2008 16:51

More important matters first. The raging fire is taking a backside. And some NSG commandoes hurt in the fire are being pulled out. Saw one guy taken away in ambulance.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Vipin_Upadhyay » 27 Nov 2008 16:51

This is surprising, since fire tenders are really in the same locality -- Colaba Fire Station.
Whay the heck they are delaying the Fire extinguishing operation?

Is there possibility of piglet throwing grenades at Fire tenders from window? :(

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Rishi » 27 Nov 2008 16:52

Vipin_Upadhyay wrote:This is really surprising, since fire tenders are really in the same locality -- Colaba Fire Station.
Whay the heck they are delaying the Fire extinguishing operation?

Is there possibility of piglet throwing grenades at Fire tenders from window? :(


IBN saying they are waiting for NSG permission

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Nov 2008 16:52

you guys are mixing up the moscow theatre incident (fentanyl) and the beslan school incident. in the first the troops got the bad guys pretty fast but did not know the right first aid - most deaths could have been saved if the unconscious people had been put into coma recovery position and not laid flat - they choked on their own tongues mostly. at beslan, the terrorists blew the place to smithereens as fast as they could

anyway - please focus on mumbai. there is way too much speculation going on here and all these live tv feeds are just stoking hysteria. there should be a cordon and blackout. the security forces will tell the media what is happening once its done. there should also be a joint intel and action command between police and armed forces (and yes - a joint armed forces command) - there has to be a lot more preparation required for the metro police forces. other cities have done it - there is much to be learned

btw - the store up RDX in the room and blow when busted trick was done in madrid when the SWAT team found the bombers - they blew themselves and the first cop up when there was nowhere left to go

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby vishal » 27 Nov 2008 16:53

NSG parting curtains in a specific way in all rooms they have cleared at Trident. Lights on in rooms where they are taking up positions as staging areas.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby sampat » 27 Nov 2008 16:53

If there are no more hostages in Taj why can't they just blow couple of floors instead of risking lives of jawans.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby ASPuar » 27 Nov 2008 16:53

MohanG wrote:
Agencies responding include MARCOS, NSG, Regular Army, Mumbai Police, CRPF, RAF.


True, there should be some coordinating mechanism. I think there does exist an informal one as far as the actual operations go. However, I have a suspicion that each agency involved is impatient to let the country know how good a job it is doing. Some publicity doesn't harm.

However, as ASPuar would perhaps agree, a single-person official spokesperson is needed to interact with the media at this time (when operations are still going on). This person need not be a senior person - a middle rank media savvy officer will do. All that is needed is to give appropriate information and to squelch rumors. A not-too-senior spokesperson can always feign ignorance if an inconvenient question is raised. Or, the representatives of the various agencies can brief the media together in a press conference. Appearing solo on different channels may be good for the TRPs of the channels, but is harmful for sending a coherent and consistent message.

Later, when the operations are finished and normalcy is restored, then different agencies will anyway blow their own trumpets - if not formally, then informally.

However, there cannot be any rules for the political leadership (including the opposition) to force them to speak less except for their own good sense and the public opinion. And I think the political leadership - right from the MLA/MP to PM - have not spoken out of turn.


Correct. I imagine that a media interaction command center should be established at such events. It would also help to keep the media away from the scene of the action, and disturbing troops/police conducting ops. A middle level official for this job is probably the best bet anyway, because he neednt commit to anything, and cant be put on the spot. Besides, its a bit unseemly for very senior officers to be giving media briefings on the spot.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby bart » 27 Nov 2008 16:54

INDIA TV needs to be taken off air ASAP....they are talking to some terrorist inside Nariman house and giving him free airtime for his propaganda. They are asking him lame questions such as when did he land, what kind of weapons he has etc, and he is not answering even a single one of them but continuing to air his views about injustices to Muslims etc.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2008 16:54

TV is bleating about "final assault" as if there is one room with a flag saying "HQ-assault me". old buildings like this are a maze of rooms each of which could be bobby trapped. there is no point risking security men in the rush to end things asap and give our 'leaders' a quick soundbite.

instead let them be on the hotseat of public scrutiny for some time.
there are people in media who are asking the right questions, though
most of media are brain dead as the jihadis.

btw truckloads of Army troops seem to have taken over building cordons
as the MH police are incapable of doing that. I saw some police types
with ak47s or maybe they were marcos earlier.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 27 Nov 2008 16:54

Its a heritage building... Pulling down two floors is not a joke, esp in a congested locality.

Fire tenders seen....

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby maz » 27 Nov 2008 16:56

where is the fire brigade?
why not insert cdos from the roof?
Why are the helos not being used for special forces insertion?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby snehal.tiwari » 27 Nov 2008 16:58

In the current scenario, the emotions will be running strong and blood rushing to the brains of most of the countrymen in anger. Revenge & retribution will be demanded from the authorities. Muslim community and Pakistan will be thought of as perpetrators. After so many terrorist incidents across the country each one more deadly and disturbing than the preceeding one, what we need to do is sit back and think of a just and long term solution to this.

It is wrong to put the entire blame on our intelligence agencies and police for not being capable enough to avert the attacks. Some blame could be put there but India is too big a country, far too much population, not enough resources for the security agencies and rampant corruption making it impossible to monitor everyone and pre-emptively stop these kind of events. Also there are other more important issues like education, infrastructure, health, etc on higher priority and demanding a higher share from the budget than internal security.

Lets see what has happened before in all the incidents till now.
1) We have a terror attack
2) We solve / handle / ride through the event
3) Politians condemn the attack
4) Police hunts for the culprits
5) Police may or may not find them
6) If culprits are not found, we forget about it after a month or so OR till the point another attack occurs.
7) If culprits are found, the judicial process takes years and years (execllect example is parliament attack)
8) Petty and votebank oriented politics comes out (Congress for the muslims, BJP against the muslims)
9) Another attack occurs and the cycle repeats

Now, is this what we want to happen this time as well?

Who is a terrorist?

The points I am going to list out are assumptions, which I would say can be considered to be true in vast majority of the cases. There would be some exceptions to these assumptions, but lets not waste time hunting for proof in individual cases. Lets omit the exceptions and work on getting the long term solution.

*He is a Muslim (not always true and we have recent exception).
*He is not well educated.
*He is from a subjugated background.
*Would have experienced one or another variatiion of injustice or a personal loss.
*Would be brainwashed and incited against Hindu / India.
*Would have spent their lives/childhood in ghettos (extremely crowded and shabby).
*Most important of all, when he decides to take the gun in his hand, he has nothing material/emotional to loose.

The final point is very very important. Nothing to loose. A person who has nothing to loose is very dangerous. He can be easily programmed and manipulated.

We also have to accept that we live in a society where we discriminate between religion and caste. Hindu-Muslim, Bhraman-Dalit... etc. We then favour our lot in our day to day and business dealings. This mindset hurts the minority and does not enable them to prosper and get integrated into the main stream. What I am saying is, we need to give equal opportunities (without reservation) based on merit.

Do we want to kill the terrorists?

I would say no (to the generic question). Any person who thinks two steps ahead will say no. We might be able to kill all the terrorists today. But more will grow tomorrow if the conditions remain the same. We need to take the conditions away. We need to make sure everyone (did not want to say muslims) has a decent life and stands to loose something important if he chooses to be a terrorist.

Thats for long term. Will not happen overnight. Each of us concerned today have to ensure that we do our bit in helping the downtrodden.

Now this is a very generic solution being preached for long by many. I have read something similar elsewhere as well.

Being more specific to the Indian context.

We have been taking it easy for too long and hoping that things will improve / go away if we turn a blind eye.
We should punish the brains that control the hand rather than hands which hold the guns.
Meaning, not the terrorist in person, but the person who controls him.
Proof or no proof, it is impossible to believe that terrorism at this scale is without any state sponsorship.

So which state?
We live in troubled area. Pakistan is a failed state. Bangladesh too poor and more populous than us. Nepal having communist unrest and Sri Lanka has the LLTE problem. Whom to blame? Whom to wage war against?

Among all our neighbours, Pakistan is a country which has to be the prime candidate. Closely followed by Bangladesh in its complicity with Pakistan. Third would be Nepal, being helpless to stop itself being used as a base by the former two.

Also, branding the country for the action of its leaders / men in power is not a right thing to do. No point having a war and inflicting misery on people on both sides. Also it is going to be difficult and is unlikely that we will every have definate proof against any person.

So, What to do?

Take the terrorist infrastructure out. Preachers of hate, training camps and people running them have to be eliminated. Every state has to be responsile for actions going on in their teritorry.

Lets be like the US for once. Let all our neighbours know that we want the terrorist infrastructure destroyed regardless of where it is. Boundaries are inconsequential. You either co-operate and be with us or fight against us.

Literally meaning, regardless of boundaries, the armed forces should attack and destroy terrorist training camps and we should chase terrorists and catch them. What ever arms and ammunition we find has to be traced. And once it is traced, the person who should have been in charge of it, should be bought to justice regardless of his nationality and position. If we ever determine with adequate proof, who the person who gave the green signal for any of the terrorist attacks, we either get him to justice or just take him out of the equation. The remote controllers should not be spared at any cost.

What this means is we ask for help and co-ordination between armies of our neighbours when carrying out operations. For specific incidents, we inform our neighbouring armies, before hand or as it happens (in todays world instant communication is possible) that we are going in to areas held by them for doing an operation and who so ever opposes us is our enemy. You either help us or stay out. We should use air, sea, land whatever resources needed to do this.

Our armed presence outside the territory under our control today, should be as temporary as possible. Just destroy / capture and return should be the motto.

Lets tell to our neighbours "We do not want war. But we want peace to prevail. Since you cannot control activities on your side, we will do it. If you choose to stand in the way, you will be treated as an enemy.*

And this is not something that we must just say. We should follow it up with actions as well.

What will happen if we do this?
The international community will be on our side for sure. Could not be otherwise since they have been standing with US for doing a lot worse and going many times farther then what we are saying we will do. Anyways, it is time we showed some spine and not wait and ask for all around approval.

For our neighbours, they will make noises (loads of it). They will also prepare for a war / confrontation. Military presence on the borders will increase. But there will not be a full scale war. If we do not initate it, our neighbours are in no position to initate it either. We should be prepared for war anyways.

Ignoring the noise, the military build up is good in a way. Since there are more boots on the ground, the neighbours themselves should be able to control their lands properly and not permit and terrorist activity. They should be better placed to actually respond to destroying camps and chasing terrorist. All they have to do is, accomodate our forces temporarily and take the action themselves. We dont mind. But if they dont take action, we will do it. If they fight, it will be a limited engagement. Once or twice this happens, and procedures will be worked out to coordinate better.

So, once we are able to stop outisde control, intervention & help to the existing terrorists in India, the problem will fade away slowly. It will not be completely eradicated till be remove the conditions / abolish the environment in which terrorism grows. Hence, its time for some action NOW. Our politicians need to show unity and display that they have spine. At this point, if they take this action now, the country will be with them.
Taking these actions now, will drain the country's resources for now (say 2-3 years), but it is a lot better to bleed some more now (and heal later), then to have a constant handicap and injury for life.

Lets not fight a country, but fight the terrorist controllers and take our neighbours along. They have the same problem on their hands too.

Not to forget, for long term peace and safety, we have a long long way to go. It is doable. We need to have faith in ourselves. Not hold grudges of the past. He need to trust and love our fellowmen irrespective of religion, caste and creed.

For the fanatics on both sides, who want to fight hindu-muslim, I want them to think what would happen if they get whatever they want. Once they are done with hindu-muslim, we will have shia-sunni, brahman-dalit, mahrashtrian-UP, North-South, Punjabi-Sindhi conflicts.

Finally, being a sentimentalist that I am, I would love to see an unified India as before independence. I might be day dreaming and people will call me nuts. If not that, something similar to EU today will be great for people on all sides (including Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri-Lanka).

Hence, lets drop the fight. Lets stop dividing ourselves on religion, caste, region and prosper togather.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Vipin_Upadhyay » 27 Nov 2008 16:58

So far Mumbai Police's overall response is pathetic, going by their past record I expected much more efficiency than this...perhaps they are caught completely off-guard.
Media journalists should not have been given access to site to begin with.
I hope some CCTV camera gets the Video of NSG dispatching piglets to their jannah of pigs!

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Nov 2008 16:58

sampat wrote:If there are no more hostages in Taj why can't they just blow couple of floors instead of risking lives of jawans.


and blowing a couple of floors will do what to the structure of the building? :roll:

sending in fire trucks into an unsecured location could just mean the death of even more first responders and troops - the army is in control - let them sort out what needs to happen

remember the iranian embassy in london was gutted by fire following the SAS assault on the hostage takers - the building has to be cleared of bad people with guns before anything else can happen

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 27 Nov 2008 16:58

Huge explosion from lower floors of Taj now. Back to lower floors. This is back and forth....

Water not reaching the fire-laden floor... The firefighter is standing at a precarious position and hitting the fountain. Salute sir...
Last edited by Stan_Savljevic on 27 Nov 2008 17:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2008 17:01

they could have left behind RC rdx packages up above false ceilings for
detonation later when lots of security were inside.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby shyamd » 27 Nov 2008 17:01

Mumbai Terror Attack Updates Day 2
November 27, 2008, 1:49 PM (GMT+02:00)

- The Islamist terrorists attacking Mumbai for the second day came from outside the country.

- Indian security sources report many Israeli hostages in the Oberoi Hotel, which the terrorists still control amid sustained gunfire in the lobby.

- Heavy battles resume in the Taj Palace Hotel.

- Indian naval troops board the MV Alpha freighter suspected of having sailed the terrorists to Mumbai's shore from Karachi, Pakistan.

- Anti-tanks missiles handed out to Indian commando force battling terrorists at Taj Palace hotel.

- Indian general: Four or five terrorists inside Chabad Center.

- Islamist shooting attacks and blasts spread to southern Mumbai away from the hotel district ---

- Terrorists hurl grenades at Indian forces surrounding Chabad Center and the Oberoi hotel.

- Fighting flares up anew in the Taj Palace Hotel said to have been cleared Thursday. Some hostages escaped and many bodies were found in guests' rooms.

- Terrorists are still holed up at the Oberoi Hotel and Chabad Center with hostages, including Israelis, under police-commando siege.

- A loud explosion at the Oberoi Hotel as some of the hundreds of hostages escape.

- A woman and child held at Chabad center came out of the building.

- The Mumbai stock exchange stays shut.

- Police sappers defuse bombs containing RDX strewn across the town.

- International airlines cancel flights to the beleaguered Indian town.

-The terrorists wear elite military unit uniforms. Each has an automatic rifle, grenades and military-style kit.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Vipin_Upadhyay » 27 Nov 2008 17:02

I think Fire can be controlled from even long distance....they can erect the hose up and direct powerful spray at blazes. can be managed with minimum risk if planned properly.
Surprised that Colaba Fire Station is pretty modern compare to others and yet they are not swift in action.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Ujjal » 27 Nov 2008 17:03

sampat wrote:If there are no more hostages in Taj why can't they just blow couple of floors instead of risking lives of jawans.


More like Beslan-style storming? May be they are worried about the overall collateral damage?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Vivek Sreenivasan » 27 Nov 2008 17:04

This is insane...ive never seen anything like this even 911 wasent like this.
Last edited by Vivek Sreenivasan on 27 Nov 2008 17:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby AdityaM » 27 Nov 2008 17:05

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Its a heritage building... Pulling down two floors is not a joke, esp in a congested locality.

Fire tenders seen....

Its an icon of the city....destroy it & the enemy gets a morale boost...a high that will embolden them.

I frankly feel that with all things Pakistani....its their attempt to equate their islamabad hotel blast with this...
They will do anything to gain a parity of sorts
I world considers Pak as dangerous, then they want the same world to consider India as dangerous too!
If 1 Paki hotel makes a dangerous world, then destroy 3 indian hotels...thats their thought

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Mathew G » 27 Nov 2008 17:06

I will not ever blame the police for the lack of anything. If at all, they are doing a stellar job given the resources and equipment they've been given by the government. Some even lost their lives in due course, if I'm not mistaken.

My take, take the fight outside of India. To Pakistan. Now. Remove the entire top brass. Not just ISI. Including the so-called friendly President, PM and FMs.

Wipe it off the map. Make it a puppet state like Afganistan. We'll be doing the world a favor.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 27 Nov 2008 17:07

Vilasrao Deshmukh (my paraphrasing of his interview with IBN folks --- questions and answers interspersed, I guess the message is clear though): Roughly 20-25 terrorists have entered. Lots of confusion about number of foreign nationals killed. Our records indicate that 7 foreigners killed. We will give details later. Which group? New name Dec Muj. Our first job is to rescue people. One terrorist involved in activities is caught. After enquiry, we will come to know. Intel failure. Was there any info from centre? There is a perception that Maha is always in the hit-list. Eco powerhouse etc. So Mumbai is always their target. No specific info from centre. We should nt go to that conclusion. Our coastal security needs to be tightened. RDX etc. Coastal police stations have got max funding. We are getting speed boats. When will it end? When will stock market open? Schools colleges etc. Govt has appealed to schools etc to close. As far as stock mkt, I am surprised why its closed. School, colleges will be operational tomorrow. When will NSG get full control? Life of hostages is important. They are operating according to their operating procedures. We are providing whatever help they need. Life is important in this stage.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby milindc » 27 Nov 2008 17:09

snehal.tiwari wrote:Do we want to kill the terrorists?
I would say no (to the generic question).


Among all our neighbours, Pakistan is a country which has to be the prime candidate.

Also, branding the country for the action of its leaders / men in power is not a right thing to do.
Take the terrorist infrastructure out. Preachers of hate, training camps and people running them have to be eliminated.
Lets be like the US for once. Let all our neighbours know that we want the terrorist infrastructure destroyed regardless of where it is. Boundaries are inconsequential. You either co-operate and be with us or fight against us.

Hence, lets drop the fight. Lets stop dividing ourselves on religion, caste, region and prosper togather.


Snehal,
You keep contradicting your own statements as one moves down the incoherent rambling.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Vipin_Upadhyay » 27 Nov 2008 17:10

I suspect the local ROPers involvement who are well aware about demography of this area.
Considering that the building Nariman House is housing Jews has nearby buildings with good mix of population of Parsis/Zoroastrians and Gujaratis.
There is no way a new piglet can select the Nariman House among crowd of these buildings without proper local guidance.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 27 Nov 2008 17:11

Btw, I wanted to post this yesterday. November 27, 1095 - Pope Urban II declares the First Crusade at the Council of Clermont. Some strange coincidence...

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby kvraghav » 27 Nov 2008 17:12

^^
Leave snehals comments alone.He has come with his flame baits into an emotionally charged up thread..

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby vishal » 27 Nov 2008 17:13

CNN IBN showing soldiers carrying {"Shaheen" tactical nuclear missiles dipped in a little "Pakistan" from between their reporter's ears}
Last edited by enqyoob on 27 Nov 2008 17:44, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Vishal: Thanks for the running commentary but there is no need to post operations tactics - the Paki terrorists at PakDef should have to go watch CNN instead, pls. You cannot judge which piece of info will result in the death of a police officer or allow

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Nayak » 27 Nov 2008 17:16

Bwahahaha, Cnn-IBN dorkette says that commandos are carrying SAMS.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2008 17:16

marcos is a small unit and heavily engaged in kashmir, aden, near sri lanka etc. it seems only around (20000) of them in three teams kept a fight and the wolves in check until today morning when the NSG arrived. a noteworthy work by such a small unit.

I am glad regular IA in battle gear is in outer cordon. you never know
with police - some may fight and some may run, letting a terrorist
escape in the dark. IA are pretty good at a disciplined group fire to
bring down these pigs. and they are far fitter.

there is some footage of NSG people lining up to go inside oberoi.
five sidearms and six rifles, BPJs to protect rear of neck also. BP transparent facemasks _ I think that works in smaller areas like
assaulting a room not in such a mobile gunfight inside a huge building. Portable flamethrowers with each person, plus the usual tactical micro-nuclear RPGs.

barkha is whining on and on about whats going to happen should
perchance the GOI launches a assault and how even one hostage being
killed by terrorists is going to be bad xyz. she has become hysterical
and incoherent during the course of the day to add to her slyness and
madness. someone should just chloroform this woman and keep her
sedated until this is cleaned up.
Last edited by Singha on 27 Nov 2008 17:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Tanaji » 27 Nov 2008 17:17

Snehal's post has factual inaccuracies, self contradictions, stereotypes and plain naivete thrown in for good measure.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby vishal » 27 Nov 2008 17:18

Times Now showing flash bangs or grenades going off at Trident, curtains adjusted soon after. NSG commandos going room by room and setting curtains in a certain way in all cleared rooms. Army sources saying there is no time pressure on them.

Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 27 Nov 2008 17:18

NSG chief JK Dutt: Is this the final assault? We are on with the operation. So we cant say much. Full-fledged at all three places. NH is under operation too.
Last edited by Stan_Savljevic on 27 Nov 2008 17:19, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2008 17:18

someone should put him out of his misery and ban him. we dont tolerate WKKs here least of all at a time like this,


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