Indian Response to Terrorism

amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby amit » 28 Nov 2008 14:10

negi wrote:Intelligence is not an issue boss.. the issue is we tend to COMPROMISE we have been doing this since 47 . Today situation has deteriorated to a level where we are ready to compromise human lives too and this has manifested itself into our tolerance for terror. Ofcourse GOI and PMO then get to applaud the junta's resolve and the speed with which Mumbai will/has recovered from the blasts.


Naveen,

Boss you may be surprised but your comment is something I can agree to completely. I see you also note its not just a UPA, NDA problem but more endemic and rooted to our political culture and that's exactly what I'm trying to hammer at.

All this talk about all this wouldn't have happened if this party or that leader was in power is useless as long as our political system is not cleaned up and reformed.

JMT

munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby munna » 28 Nov 2008 14:18

I was on a flight hence missed mush of the action in Mumbai. My heartfelt condolences to the fellow Indians and other innocent human beings whose live were snuffed out by the low lives.
As far the question of the response to this goes I think a certain threshold has been crossed whereby the Mr Money Bags, Mr Social Elite and Mr Wheeler Dealers of India have been told in no uncertain terms that terror is not something that strikes Mumbai trains or an average joe in a local market. It can GET them anywhere! As far as the UPA vs NDA goes the whole argument during NDA rule was that their apathy towards ROP followers was responsible for the attacks and terror incidents but why in case of UPA which is so sympathetic to them? I think we all know the answers!

Nesoj
BRFite
Posts: 137
Joined: 02 Aug 2006 18:44

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Nesoj » 28 Nov 2008 14:20

A solution (other than nuking the piglets) would be for India to issue a statement and ENFORCE IT, that

- for every Indian murdered by a Piglet terrorist, (and/or) murdered by a traitor trained by Piglets (and/or) murdered by influenced by Piglet ideology, India will stop flow of water from India to Pakistan calculated pro-rata @ 1 days stoppage for every Indian murdered

Strike them where it hurts - their stomachs - once the common farmer's fields dry up and the shops run dry of food, then sense will set in. There's no better convincing logic than a Pig unable to fill the plates of his piglets.

PS - once the days are over, India should release all the held back water in one go --- :D

Probably let them swim for a while in their wheat fields :rotfl:

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby RajeshA » 28 Nov 2008 14:24

From all the diversion propaganda that I am seeing, my one hope is that India's Israeli friends would jump in and use their influence to stop State Dept. operations to quieten and dampen a strong Indian response against Pakistan.

Earlier I read that Olmert had a very heated exchange with George W. Bush, so I am not sure about Israelis influence right now.

Too many parties are coming together to quieten this thing:

US State Department: They want to keep their Pakistani pawns and keep their attention on their Western Front, so no escalation with India.

Indian National Congress: They know they are too timid to do anything, and do not have any moral high-ground on the terrorism issue and are going to lose the elections.

Indian Psec Media: With Barkha Dutts, Rajdeep Sadesais, Sagarikas, Arundhati Roys, and other Pakistani Lovers giving this a different angle with Congress-BJP sniping.

International Media: Too many interviews with people putting out too many theories that these can be aggrieved Indian Muslims, Kashmiris. Irresponsible and dangerous Nuclear neighbors could be at it. They are reminding everybody that Pakistan is a nuclear country, and everybody should try to deescalate any tensions, that may crop up between India and Pakistan.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20905
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Philip » 28 Nov 2008 14:34

Some points on the criticism of the anti-terror ops. going on both local and foreign.

1.Media criticised because of live coverage.Impossible to stop in this day and age.However,why did the police allow the media so close to the Taj and Oberoi at the beginning and even afterwards? They should've placed the barriers far behind the rope that we saw.The entire area of the Gateway and the Taj right from the Yacht Club /Regal cordoned off and all civilains kept out.Certain media camaeramen are needed for recoding the events and they could've been allowed without compromising the operations.

2.The question must be asked,perhaps later as to WHO was the key babu/military officer in charge of the entire anti-terror op? Did politicos obscure/hamper the operations?

Initially,the sheer scale and lethality of the strikes were not immediately avaialable,but,given the sensitivity of the entire area of the Taj with the country's most important naval dockyard next door,with even the Yacht Club's former buildings across the road on the waterfront,now being used by the AEC,a masterplan to protect the entire area should've been in place.There should've also been armoured cars to provide protective recce,along with helos, for the forces ,used in the ops.The firefighters reportedly came under fire and weren't able to go into action early enough to prevent the fire from being brought under control when it first broke out.

3.Israeli criticism has come in that our forces went into action without waiting to assess the situ and take control of the area.The second point is accepted as mentioned in the earlier point.However,from all accounts by rescued guests,the terrorists immediately started to massacre the hotel guests,singling out Brits and Yanks,and had our forces 'waited",the casualties would've been far more.Because we went into action immediately,and many of our gallant servicemen/police losing their lives in the process,the ungodly werte forced to stop their massacres and hide from the anti-terror commandos/police.

In the apt. where the Israelis are being held hostage,we are waiting,as there are no reports that thy're being shot.Here,the gameplan has been to demand release of captured terrorists,perhaps even those under Israeli custody.There has been a diabolic plan with several different objectives,kill as many Indians as possible (VT/CST),mas many foreign hotel guests at 5* hotels and Indian staff,more reports of very heavy casualties at the Oberoi/Trident,kill/capture as many VIPs if detected.

4.We have had several security agencies involved .The police,Army comandos,RAF,MARCOS,NSG,etc.Each outfit has its own distinctive weaponry.The police constables are meant to keep law and order using time tested "lathis".One enduring memeory/video is of a wounded constable being carried ,NOT letting go of his weapokn,his lathi! Yes,the ancient .303 is still in use and nees to be replaced,but if it still has preventitive value,why not keep using it and spend the money instead urgently needed for special forces? We are not the US where guns can be bought across the counter and the fewer weapons that triugger hahppy cops might have the better.

5.Managing the media.We see it time and time again.Instead of street (chaotic) briefings,as is going on now,the media should be kept informed at a suitable venue on a regular basis,with detailed statements as was done during the Kargil War by military spokesmen.The police/forces should have better PR and breifings only through official sources,not as we are seeing with the Malegaon case.The Indian media also have to learn to be better behaved and organised especially the vernacular journos who just pounce upon the embattled security wallahs who have to fight a second battle with the press!

6.Past time for every majot city,including all two-tier cities and cities and centres of major religious importance,especially the major Metros,if not in existence, to have contemporary high-tech central "war" central command posts where all arms of the police/security/military can be co-ordinated with real-time availability of info,live feeds,etc.,to Central intelligence/command authorities.

Lekhraj
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 60
Joined: 15 Aug 2006 20:43
Location: Planet Earth

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Lekhraj » 28 Nov 2008 14:38

I think, we should declare war on Pakistan and punish them hard for siding with US/UK/China in harming us.

Pakistan cannot afford war and will buckle down in 1 weeks time.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17024
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Rahul M » 28 Nov 2008 14:40

let me clear this at the outset that the following is NOT a discussion on politics.
I'm just analysing the kandahar episode as I see it as an Indian citizen, nothing more, nothing less.

However, I think an effort could have been made to stop the plane in Amritsar and that was dreadful lapse in security.

undoubtedly it was a major administrative failure on the part of GoI and the crisis management group.
but to their credit the whole system was refurbished and streamlined afterwards and pending authorisation from the political masters, the system itself reacts pretty quickly since then.

I know it was a Catch 22 situation for the government then and I sympathize with them. However when you consider in hindsight how many hundreds of Indians died because Masood Azhar was released then you'd probably come to the conclusion, as I have, it would have been better to let go of all the passengers instead of letting this bas###d go off scot free.

amit, this is really not expected from you !

just 'let go' 190 odd innocent people just because there is a chance that 5 freed terrorists could possibly indulge in such actions in the future ?
if your security apparatus can't deal with 5 men operating from foreign soil, then such an apparatus doesn't deserve to exist.

do realize that we had no chance of an armed assault once the plane was outside India.

all you can hope in such a situation is that the people at risk will be rescued and your security apparatus will deal with any future situations.

And what was Jaswant Singh thinking when he personally escorted the terrorists to Kandahar, what kind of message did it send out to the world. The Indian FM going with hands folded to hijackers?

oh c'mon, let's not fall for this cheap rhetoric. JS was at place to lead negotiations with the terrorists overseen by an extremely hostile taliban.
it wasn't just JS arriving at kandahar and exchanging prisoners, there were intense negotiations.
and the team there needed someone with enough political authority to carry out any decision.
a point that needs to be noted is that jaswant's plane did carry commandoes but the taliban put paid to any rescue efforts by surrounding IC-814 a/c with technicals and even tanks.

if anything it speaks of the commitment of an elected official to land up in a hostile foreign country and take charge of the situation. I would be proud if any other politician shows such cojones in times of crisis.

Most countries in the world have a zero tolerance to hostage-demand situation. India has paid a heavy price for not having one till now, it seems.


do remember that we had no opportunity to make a SF rescue effort.
NO country in such a situation would have stuck to 'no negotiations'. if you don't have the option of an armed assault, 'no negotiations' goes out of the window.

As for Parakram, Cold Start was a result of the failure of Parakaram to get our objectives? However, my question is was Parakaram a kind of knee jerk reaction - a sort of got to do something to show our manhood kind of move?

If the intention was never to attack then why do it in the first place. The Pakis think even that was victory for its martial forces and Musharraf said so several times.

AFA we know they did intend to attack, ALL signals suggest likewise.

but the army took too long to mobilise, long enough to lose the surprise factor. (due to time periods connected to deployment, surprise factor lasts as long as your enemy is not fully prepared and you are. in the Indo-pak context this is at a maximum of 7-14 days)

it was thus no longer possible to continue military operations given the nuclear backdrop.

edit:
again, this is not an effort to whitewash efforts of NDA regime.
as amit says, softness is ingrained in Indian politicos, even IG went soft to ZAB at shimla.

I still haven't forgotten NDA's spineless response to the BD outrages.

Lekhraj
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 60
Joined: 15 Aug 2006 20:43
Location: Planet Earth

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Lekhraj » 28 Nov 2008 14:44

Another idea is to Block all oil tankers entering Pakistani ports. Do this untill Pakis hand over terrorists from the list already handed to them.

Nayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2553
Joined: 11 Jun 2006 03:48
Location: Vote for Savita Bhabhi as the next BRF admin.

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Nayak » 28 Nov 2008 14:54

M.J. Akbar's hitpiece


Tough nation impotent in the face of terrorism
PAUL LACHINE/NEWSART
This week's Mumbai attacks represent more than a failure of police work. They represent a collapse of governance, writes M.J. Akbar.

M.J. Akbar

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/544968

MUMBAI–In most cities of South Asia, hidden beneath the grime and neglect of extreme poverty, there exists a little Somalia waiting to burst out and infect the body politic.

This netherworld, patrolled and nourished by criminals who operate a vast black-market economy, has bred in Mumbai a community that has utter contempt for the state, because it knows that its survival depends on corrupting the police. Like underground magma, that underworld has now burst into the streets of Mumbai.

Because the denizens of this netherworld know neither patriotism nor morality, they are easily lured into partnership with terrorists, particularly when they have reason to feel aggrieved. In Mumbai, a large proportion of them are Muslims who were denied space in the formal economy and have developed strong vested interests over the past 50 years.

Details about the Mumbai outrage, where terrorists killed more than 100 people, are still unfolding. But we do know that at least 30 men armed with AK-47 rifles and grenades held India's business and financial centre hostage, targeting both Indians and foreigners, particularly Americans and Britons.

It is likely that this operation was propelled from Pakistan through the Lashkar e Tauba, a terrorist organization sustained by hatred of secular India and backed by shadowy Pakistani agencies and street support.

In the blood and drama of the events, however, we might miss a significant element of the story. The attacks were an operation that must have required months of planning: serious weapons were deployed, a small army was mobilized, targets were studied, transport was organized, and weak points identified.

A plan of attack that involved hundreds of people was put in motion, and yet the massive infrastructure of India's government discovered nothing.

The chief of India's Anti-Terrorist Squad, Hemant Karkare (who lost his life in the battles that raged through the night) received a death threat from the nearby city of Pune, but his own unit did not bother to investigate it, since it was busy playing games on behalf of its political masters. Complacency and politics gave the terrorists more protection than silence or camouflage ever could.

Indeed, the attacks represent more than a failure of police work. They represent a collapse of governance; these are the wages of the sins of administrative incompetence and political malfeasance.

India is a tough nation. No one should have illusions about that. It has fought off Muslim terrorists in Kashmir, Sikh terrorists in Punjab, Christian terrorists in Nagaland, and Hindu terrorists in Assam and across the country. It understands that you cannot blame the whole community for the sins of a few. :eek: :eek: :eek:

But under ineffectual governance, particularly during the last three years, India is in danger of degenerating into a soft state. Instead of being an international leader in the worldwide war against terrorism, it is sinking into the despair of a perpetual victim. Indeed, India stands behind only Iraq in the number of people killed each year in terrorist attacks.

Three years ago, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh rather smugly told U.S. President George W. Bush in Delhi that Indian Muslims were not involved in any act of terrorism. The implication was that the integration of Muslims in Indian society constituted a success story.

Muslims, Singh implied, also benefit from the virtues of democracy, a conclusion that Bush happily repeated. But Singh certainly did not fool any of the terrorists, some of whom may have read his self-congratulation as a challenge for them to act.

I am an Indian and a Muslim and proud to be both. Like any Indian, today I am angry, frustrated and depressed. I am angry at the manic dogs of war who have invaded Mumbai.

I am frustrated by the impotence of my government in Mumbai and Delhi, tone-deaf to the anguish of my fellow citizens. And I am depressed at the damage being done to the idea of India.

M.J. Akbar, a former member of India's parliament and adviser to the late prime minister Rajiv Gandhi, was the founding editor of The Asian Age and is an Asia Society associate fellow.

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby vina » 28 Nov 2008 15:05

With the terrible incidents like the recent one in Mumbai over the past couple of years, there have been a lot of police, military and para military personnel injured, maimed and killed in the line of duty. I am sure they and their near and dear ones are being adequately taken of by the state.

However, as a token of appreciation, I was wondering how can we as a community help ?. I think the best way folks here can help is monetarily. Is there some organization that we can contribute to, that takes care of police and paramilitary who risk their lives in response to incidents of terrorism ?.

Can BR host such a fund raising drive and hold the monies that can in turn be distributed ?. If there is already an organization that does such a thing, please post the name and address , so that those interested in contributing can send in their checks.

Nesoj
BRFite
Posts: 137
Joined: 02 Aug 2006 18:44

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Nesoj » 28 Nov 2008 15:27

Food (Dry Fruits) were recovered from the rucksacks of the terrorists - which means they were 'not expecting' to die but come out live victorious.
Also, in case they were on a suicide mission - they would have killed as many as possible and then killed themselves.

What were they expecting to achieve ? Have they made any demands or negotiating (other than yesterdays statement) - any info ????

Breaking News - NDTV
Sniffer dogs being led into Nariman - reporter concluding that the operations are over and that mop-up in starting - 2 black labs seen entering with handlers

Again on another note, why is the NDTV reporter at the Taj, reporting while lying on the floor ? when the camera clearly shows people in front of him (nearer to building) walking around. The guy looks STUPID lying on the floor and speaking on the mike, trying to act as if he is 50 mts from the building and someone is shooting at him

R_Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 387
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 12:07

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby R_Kumar » 28 Nov 2008 16:09

vina wrote:With the terrible incidents like the recent one in Mumbai over the past couple of years, there have been a lot of police, military and para military personnel injured, maimed and killed in the line of duty. I am sure they and their near and dear ones are being adequately taken of by the state.

However, as a token of appreciation, I was wondering how can we as a community help ?. I think the best way folks here can help is monetarily. Is there some organization that we can contribute to, that takes care of police and paramilitary who risk their lives in response to incidents of terrorism ?.

Can BR host such a fund raising drive and hold the monies that can in turn be distributed ?. If there is already an organization that does such a thing, please post the name and address , so that those interested in contributing can send in their checks.


Modi has declared that Gujrat will give 1 cr for every security man killed.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby SaiK » 28 Nov 2008 16:23


amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby amit » 28 Nov 2008 16:38

Rahul M wrote:let me clear this at the outset that the following is NOT a discussion on politics.
I'm just analysing the kandahar episode as I see it as an Indian citizen, nothing more, nothing less.


Rahul,

Everyone's emotionally disturbed - I know I am seething with impotent rage and haven't been able to put even 5 mins of decent work in while I sit in front of my laptop over the past two days.

So let's just let it be. I re-read my post, I think maybe I wrote somethings which perhaps I shouldn't have. I certainly never intended it to sound that 190 innocent lives were not worth saving, every single Indian life is worth waging a war for. What I meant was that Azhar fellow, since he was released, has been responsible for several hundred Indian lives as well and all these lives were as precious as those of those unfortunate 190 passengers of the Indian Airlines flight.

But I'm glad that you agree to the central point that Indians are by very nature soft and that's the problem not UPA or NDA.

And now's not the time to go after our political leaders and various party factions/supporters. Rather its time to rally around as Indians in the face of this brazen onslaught on our sovereignty.

The time for recriminations and fault finding and assigning responsibility will come later. How does it add to our understanding of what is going on and its ramifications if every other post comments on whether our PM has b**ls or not?

However, just to reiterate yet once more the UPA govt's record so far on terror has been pathetic.

Just my two paise.

Abheshek
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 15
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 17:49

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Abheshek » 28 Nov 2008 18:06

Indian Response to Terrorism?

L.O.L

That's a contradiction, an oxymoron right there. Come on, do you really expect our ballless government to do anything other than the usual moaning & ranting? When they attacked the Parliament, they did'nt do jackshit, and that's when NDA was in power, what can you expect from the congress?

Come to think of it, nothing has changed. Go back to the Kandahar Hijacking, same statements were made, then Parliament, then Train bombings, then Delhi, & so on. Absolutely nothing has changed. There's no will whatsoever, it seems like the country has been bracing itself for terror attacks over & over again.

The only thing that will happen is the usual media sponsored drama. Candle light vigils, human chains & the usual crap. I was listening to the radio in my car today & every radio station was playing messages that went like "Do what you can, we will not stop. We will keep going on" and "We salute the spirit of Mumbai, we will never be afraid". My fists clenched everytime they said that & I wished I could just shove my hand inside the music player & grab the necks of those RJs and kill them with my bare hands. Ffs, 150 people have died, and all you talk about is spirit & candle light vigil? Nobody talks of revenge & fight. We have all given in. Go on social networking sites, orkut, hi5 & facebook, and yuppies will have 'updated' their status to "Salute the Mumbai Spirit" and flashy messages will be doing rounds on their scrapbooks. This is ALL that we do. Pray for peace, then get slaughtered, then pray for peace keep a candle light vigil, raise slogans of "Hindu Muslim Bhai Bhai", then get slaughtered again, and the cycle goes on. One day this cycle will end & there's no happy ending anywhere in sight.


name changed to abheshek.
Rahul.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20905
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Philip » 28 Nov 2008 18:06

Amit,true.However,many of our intel/security experts like Vikram Sood,B.Raman,Chellaney,etc.,have given us detailed analysis as to why we are a soft state.The "rot stems from the top" hey say and a weak ,indecisive leadership,especially when it comes to overseeing and revamping our entire intelligence agencies ,unable to even enforce existing laws to deal with terror,unable to create new ones,dither about delivering justice to convicted terrorists liuke those who assassinated Rajiv after so many years (!) and the perpetrators of the attack against parliament,and simply mouth platitudes every time a terror atrocity takes place and fail to hurt Pakistan and other masterminds behind the war against India! How long do you want to protect this govt. from legitimate criticism,even now with this war against Mumbai?

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17024
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Rahul M » 28 Nov 2008 18:19

Everyone's emotionally disturbed - I know I am seething with impotent rage and haven't been able to put even 5 mins of decent work in while I sit in front of my laptop over the past two days.

same here. was awake for about 24-25 hours at a stretch. just couldn't sleep.

SriKumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2048
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 07:22
Location: sarvatra

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby SriKumar » 28 Nov 2008 18:28

RahulM,
Hats off to you and other admins for keeping good crowd control here, especially with the additional need to scan each and every post for un-desirable content...something that places an additional burden on the you guys. A tiny bit of self-restraint (and a deep breath) would perhaps go a long way....

kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby kmkraoind » 28 Nov 2008 18:44

Hello gurus, is it possible. Since there are many rants stating that the Bakistan nor any of its institutions (ISI/Army/govt) are not directly involved in this terrorist act, it is not wise to blame the Bakis govt for a few rogue elements.

India also should eliminate by missiles top caders of LET/JEM (even if there is collateral damage) and should say that it has also acted on rogue elements, and so such acts should not be considered as an act of war, but mere elimination of future threats.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11638
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Nov 2008 18:48

India at a tipping point?

As per the commentator, Indian public opinion is decisively shifting from defensive to "resolute offense".

ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2006
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby ldev » 28 Nov 2008 18:56

Rahul M,

Anyone who knows anything about the Mumbai underworld (and the likely response of the Mumbai Police) will know that they do not target and kill a Joint Commissioner of Police and Head of the ATS, its crack sharpshooter or any other police personnel for that matter because the heat on them and their families will be turned on until they are fried alive. All the armchair rakshaks who were making snide remarks about the ATS deploying 90% of its forces in Malegaon etc. etc. would have known instantly the minute news of Karkare's or Kamte's or Saluskar's death flashed on the screen that this was no ordinary homegrown attack and something very serious was afoot. At that point of time, it would have been the decent thing to do to reign in themselves and their proteges. But ignorance and lack of decency knows no bounds and the ignorant politically motivagted prattling continued for page after page after page. If you care, just pick out Nayak's posts..... out of 10 posts, I dont know but the majority speak of bangles and such like... this is a thread about the horrific events in Mumbai and such posters feel actively encouraged to post such crap not once or twice but on page after page....its a combination of these things which is shameful....

ldev, don't you think YOU are being swayed by your personal prejudices ? which moderator was 'taunting the genuine rakshaks who were probably dying at that moment at the hands of the terrorists' ?


What do you know about my personal prejudices?

munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby munna » 28 Nov 2008 19:05

Idev people are hurt and feel that time wasted chasing the wild goose of saffron terrorism should have been better spent on tackling porky sponsored terror. People are hurt and you should understand that ascribing biases and prejudices to mods and posters wont do.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11638
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Nov 2008 19:06

Fingerpointing at Pakistan against US interests

Reconciliation between India and Pakistan has emerged as a basic tenet in the approaches to foreign policy of President-elect Barack Obama, and the new leader of Central Command, Gen. David H. Petraeus. The point is to persuade Pakistan to focus less of its military effort on India, and more on the militants in its lawless tribal regions who are ripping at the soul of Pakistan.

A strategic pivot by Pakistan’s military away from a focus on India to an all-out effort against the Taliban and their associates in Al Qaeda, the thinking goes, would serve to weaken the militants who are fiercely battling American and NATO forces in Afghanistan.

But attacks as devastating as those that unfolded in Mumbai — whether ultimately traced to homegrown Indian militants or to others from abroad, or a combination — seem likely to sour relations, fuel distrust and hamper, at least for now, America’s ambitions for reconciliation in the region.

Nayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2553
Joined: 11 Jun 2006 03:48
Location: Vote for Savita Bhabhi as the next BRF admin.

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Nayak » 28 Nov 2008 19:11

ldev wrote:If you care, just pick out Nayak's posts..... out of 10 posts, I dont know but the majority speak of bangles and such like... this is a thread about the horrific events in Mumbai and such posters feel actively encouraged to post such crap not once or twice but on page after page....its a combination of these things which is shameful....


Stop exaggerating, I saw your original post on the accusation on Mods of encouraging the crap talk on ATS cops death. How convenient you modified it moment one of the mods noticed it.

Very selectively you are switching on holier-than-thou attitude. Maybe you would like to sit impotently wringing your hands helplessly and sip your tea and munch on a couple of Marie biscuits, and pass hoity-toity comments on the crassness of some of the posts. Too bad some of us don't meet your 'esteemed' standards.

Abheshek
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 15
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 17:49

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Abheshek » 28 Nov 2008 19:11

irrelevant unfeeling post. #@#^&&@$
Last edited by Rahul M on 28 Nov 2008 20:21, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Don't make another such post again.

Nayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2553
Joined: 11 Jun 2006 03:48
Location: Vote for Savita Bhabhi as the next BRF admin.

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Nayak » 28 Nov 2008 19:14

There are media reports that 90 % of the resources of ATS was spent building a slime case on Malegaon. They spent most of their time manufacturing evidence and leaking information to their media lapdogs.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10086
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby sum » 28 Nov 2008 19:20

The response has already begun:

Call in the ISI chief for chai-biskoot, allow him some air time to do more PR for his "me too victim of terror" bit, make Zardari issue a address on PTV saying no more Paki territory for attacks and then sit back and wait for the next attack(which might be even more brazen) such every tom,dick and harry knows the actual "might" of India in tackling terror...

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11638
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Nov 2008 19:20

Swati Parashar on southasiaanalysis.org

We did not wish to be ‘enemies’, but since we have been constructed that way, should not we take our roles as ‘enemies’ a bit more seriously? I cannot speak the language of peace and love anymore. If the war is forced upon us, we will have to accept it. And since our state is too inept to handle it on our behalf, let us debate ways in which we can all participate in this ‘war’, through words, wisdom or actions.

I am afraid it will not soothe my senses anymore by being told again and again that religions stand for peace and ‘some people’ are misusing religion and misquoting scriptures. The problem is that the supply of ‘some people’ seems to be never ending. These ‘some people’ are not just a few people but like amoeba they keep multiplying. I am afraid I will not feel calmed tomorrow when I hear that we should try to understand the ‘root causes’, the injustices and anger that force people on the path of terror. I ask today, as I rage at these terrorists who may not even be citizens of my country, how dare you speak for people of this country? And if it is Babri Masjid and Gujarat that you avenge, how many times should we apologise as a nation and justify your barbarity with heads hung in shame and guilt written on our faces? If we are paying the price for being a tolerant and democratic (although not perfect) nation (there are many dissenting voices tolerated in this country including the voices that speak of hatred against communities of all kinds, voices that talk of revenge and exclusion and voices that are overtly seditious against the state), I reject the guilt, shame and tolerance today for it makes me your ‘enemy’. You punish our innocent people for crimes of a few; and scream hoarse when the ‘innocent’ in your community are held up because of your barbarity. You reject our diversity (of our opinion and politics as well that has defended you and stood for you always), you do not like it when we have spoken with different voices. I, therefore, accept the ‘national identity’ you have bestowed on me as your ‘enemy’, an identity that I had always questioned in order to understand you and your problems. Thank you for reminding us, Indians (those who consider themselves one), once again that we are all equal ‘enemies’ in your war and that we need to think of an equal and befitting response.

I find some inspiration and comfort in the words of the famous poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz:

Rakht-e-dil baaNdh lo dil figaaro chalo

Phir hameeN qatl ho aa.eN yaaro chalo


Pick up the burden of the heart, let us go heartbroken ones;

We are the ones to be murdered my friends!!



Postscript:
Info. about the author can be found on this page:
http://fletcher.tufts.edu/WomenAndAlQae ... bios.shtml
Last edited by A_Gupta on 28 Nov 2008 19:35, edited 1 time in total.

Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7093
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Muppalla » 28 Nov 2008 19:23

Congress supporters are also like Pakis and everytime a Terror act happens they come back and start taking about Kandahar.

There is a stark difference. NDA might have been incompetent but they did not have terrorist supporters in their teams.

UPA is headed by a leader( sorry a puppet to foreigners and foreign origin people) who cannot even call Pakistan by name in his speech. He cannot take a stand and cannot expedite the hanging of Afzal. Sold out on Nuke deal( even when there is no clean/unconditional deal from NSG). Looks like ready to selloff Kashmir by talking too much to Pakistan. Created and gave a handle called "Hindu Terror" to entire world media. They are led by western agents to destroy India starting from their leader Sonia like Delilah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delilah). They consists of EJs and Pak-Terror supporters. They are supported by the likes of Teestas.

UPA's biggest achievement - Every Tom Dick and Harry on the international and Indian media is talking about "Hindu Terrorism". They simply destroyed all the handles that India got in dealing with terrorism.

Latest: They do not even do lipservice to so called politically unified approach to latest event. All the BJP leaders have extended their hand by saying on TV that they do not want to politicize. There is not single Congress leader who has even acknowledged.

The most traitorous government is at the helm. There is a difference between incompetence (NDA -Kandhahar) Vs. Deliberate inaction(Not a single islamic terrorist is apprehended in 4 years other than saadhus and sants). It is dishonesty at the highest level when you equalize this as same.
Last edited by Muppalla on 28 Nov 2008 19:32, edited 1 time in total.

GuruNandan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 49
Joined: 07 Dec 2007 20:38
Location: US

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby GuruNandan » 28 Nov 2008 19:25

Some sensible analysis by Hugh Fitzgerald of JihadWatch

Fitzgerald: The Mumbai jihadist link to Al-Qaeda, and why it misses the point

“Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism specialist with the Swedish National Defense College, said there are ‘very strong suspicions’ that the coordinated Mumbai attacks have a link to al-Qaida....” -- from this news article

Yes, yes. We have all heard the solemn discussions about whether or not the "Deccan Mujahideen" is a new group, or an old one, or a made-up group, and whether or not there is a "link" to Al Qaeda. And this kind of focusing on the trivial, the nearly insignificant, goes on and on and on, when the real point is this: these are Muslims. They may be from within India. Or not. They may be from Pakistan. Or not. They may have been encouraged or funded by Arab Muslims. Or not. They may have links to Al Qaeda. Or not.

What matters is that they are Muslims attacking, attempting to kill, non-Muslims, in order to obtain their aims. And their aims are to weaken -- in this particular case -- India. And they wish to weaken India in order to make the government of India appease Muslims and meet their demands, whether in Kashmir or in India proper. And once those demands, whatever they may be, are met, other demands from Muslims will be made, and will have to be met, for there is no end to this. The Jihad does not have an end point. There is not a finite goal, but rather an endless series of goals, with each success feeding triumphalism.

The only time this has not happened, in the past 1350 years, is when Muslims have been stopped, either by superior military power -- as outside of Poitiers, or when the Ottomans were repulsed twice at the Gates of Vienna, or by the clear understanding that the Infidels were overwhelmingly more powerful, militarily and economically. That, through the 19th century and the first half of the 20th, was clear to all concerned.


And though Muslims on their own, because of inshallah-fatalism, could never create advanced economies, they have become rich from oil (and gas), a manna that only an accident of geology could provide. Now they enjoy trillions of dollars which, while allowing many of them lives of incredible luxury and decadence beyond anything the Western world has experienced, also helps to fund the Jihad by paying for mosques, madrasas, armies of Western hirelings, propaganda, and campaigns of Daw'a. What's more, at the same time, and quite independently, the Western world, having forgotten its own historical experience of Islam, and its elites, political and media, having lost the ability to heed its real scholars and their cassandra warnings, instead listened to the espositos, the armstrongs, the assorted MESA-Nostra defenders-of-the-faith-and-fatah-of-Islam, and allowed into the Western midst millions of Muslims. They did this without realizing that they brought with them, undeclared, in their mental baggage, an alien and a hostile creed, one that flatly contradicts the principles -- all the principles -- of advanced Western societies.

These trillions in oil revenues, and these millions of Muslims who in an act of civilizational near-criminal negligence, have been permitted to settle deep behind what Muslims themselves are taught to regard as enemy lines, explain the threat of Jihad on a global scale today.

And there is no need to waste valuable time on the radio or television pondering ponderously whether the attackers are domestic or foreign, whether they are connected to Al-Qaeda or not. That may of some interest in helping to round this particular group up. But if too much time is spent on such matters, it distracts from the pedagogic task at hand: to explain to listeners and viewers that the key element here is Islam. It is Muslims pursuing, as they have a duty to pursue, Jihad. In this particular case they have chosen to do so using terrorism, but all around us other instruments, more effective because far less attention-getting, are being used toward the same goal, the same end: the removal of all obstacles to the spread, and then the dominance, of Islam -- everywhere.

That's why, when any "terrorism expert" -- some are good, some are not so good, some are idiotic -- proceeds to enjoy his time on the air discussing endlessly what this group should be called, what other groups it is linked to, what its "cause" is -- it's a case of missing-the-pointness that, at this point in the history of the world, is downright dangerous.

Posted by Hugh


http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023691.php#more

Nayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2553
Joined: 11 Jun 2006 03:48
Location: Vote for Savita Bhabhi as the next BRF admin.

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Nayak » 28 Nov 2008 19:27

LDEV - What will you present a person who is responsible for so many deaths ?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122783260486063039.html

The death toll from terrorism -- not counting at least 119 killed in Mumbai on Wednesday and Thursday -- stands at over 4,000, which gives India the dubious distinction of suffering more casualties since 2004 than any country except Iraq.


Now he wants to invite the ISI to have a chai-biskoot statement. I willing to bet that end of the session, he will issue a joint statement that both India and Pak are joint victims of common terror. Pakistan will investigate the non-state actors and will provide a report at the end of exercise.

Grow a brain mano and then post your sophisticated sounding thoughts.

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby brihaspati » 28 Nov 2008 19:29

I think our general tenor here is getting more emotional and sarcastic. Let us look at the situation practically:

What is :

(1) In the short term, the operations will end successfully, with most terrosrists caught or killed. GOI will make strong statements against Pakistan, demand some concrete response - but will stop short of making any actual out of border military intervention. There will be heavy pressure from the US not to do this in a transitional period for the US administration, and it also comes at an inconvenient time point in their strategic line for consolidating their presence in Afghanistan - this would be good later when they have retreated a bit from Iraq and are able to concentrate their forces on the North east corner of Afghanistan (only after cleaning southern Afghan support base of the Taleban/Al qaeda) a- and only then will they go for a coordianted op with India to encircle the northern Pakistan tribal area now taken over by the Taleban and underhand supporters from the Pakistan state security and military apparatus. At this moment this will simply divide the Pakistani army into two with one side using the opportunity to move up with the Taleban and possibly declare a new government of Pakistan while the remaining part moves to the Indian border and south or maybe the entire military declares in favour of Taleban and then its a big big wide front for all concerned militarily.

(2) Congress will survive the next general elections if they are at all held. There are sufficient support bases, which will consolidate around the Congress as the last means of survival in India - including the Islamic leadership represented by the Tabliqi Jamaat and the Deobandis, the communists of all shapes and shades of red, and even the EJ's. This still does represnt a significant if not dominant electoral swing factor, especially as long as the "Hindu" vote remains divided. We can see that even some of the BRfites, who are predominantly free of leftist or centrist weaknesses still sometimes cannot get over their mistrust of the "Right".

(3) The BJP is in a dilemma - on the one hand it wants to pose as a "mature" "responsible" and therefore "restrained" manner and not jump into urging military intervention, on the other hand it loses "Hindu" votes if it fails to live up to a more hardline expectation. It will also not want the UPA and other Centre-Left forces like Mayavati or Mulayam to exploit "returning upper caste repression" card to mobilize portions of the "Hindu".

(4) it is unlikely that this is the last of terror attacks of this scale. This could be part of a much longer term plan of military aggression, and simply a diversion. At even this moment the next module might be planning and coordinating with their local Muslim support bases to build up to the next outrage. I would conservatively estimate that plans for the next one year has already been chalked out by the terrorist leadership. And many of the countries that have traditionally had supported Islamic countries and radical Islamic movements in these countries for various reasons including the secret/black operations wings of the West and China are most probably aware of these planned moves.

(5) The huge naval border and the difficult mountainous terrain in the land border makes it almost impossible to make the border impenetrable. Infiltrations will continue, and with possibly the next groups already inside. A new security law is not really effective and a security law is not the point. What would really be needed is power and capability to have intensive surveillance of all humans within the borders a task physically infeasible and politically suicidal for any regime as long as it has work within "democracy".

(6) the political regime as well as state apparatus fro security and intelligence probably infiltrated by double agents who can divert attention to false trails and also blind the agencies.

Positive outcomes : Greater psychological proximity and identification between the professional military and the common people of India - a crucial factor that bypasses power elite and their manipulations to retain state power and extremely impottant for future consolidation of the nation.

Negative outcomes: lack of international economic confidence for some time, use of this shift of attention to one spot helping other programmes of terror plan such as infiltration etc., all across the country,

What can be done short term:

(1) independent citizen's network for vigilance and surveillance. This information to be closely guarded and not shared with local level state security apparatus, although some degree of coordination with a central national level state organ should not be ruled out in the interim. At all times, keep the possibility in mind that the information you share at any level of the government could actually leak out to undesirable sources. This can be planned of course in a way such that these moles and their networks within the state apparatus can actuially be found out by subtle manipulation of the information shared. I cannot elaborate more for obvious reasons.

(2) instead of full scale military operations right now, there can be deep penetration strike operatives to carry out liquidation activities outside our borders.

(3) form a civilian platform of the "Hindus" and any non-Muslims willing and reliable enough to join in, that will take up the key goals of a presidential form of governmemt with a non-partisan president elected by direct vote to gain independence from minority/factional manipulation, an uniform civil code not recognizing Islamic law, compulsory national education, and state supervision of all religious bodies. The platform for the short term practical viewpoint should not do anything that divides the non-Muslim vote - given the timeframe for the next general elections, but if the "existing Hindu" forces fails to implement this programme will have to think of converting itself into a more regular political entity.

(4) begin civil and economic non-cooperation with any entity, from the media to academics to political groups - that give even a hint of protecting or favouring any continuing role of Islam for the future on the subcontinent. Hindu religious leaders should be called upon to do their bit to rise above and remove divisive practices of castes or others things that are being taken advantage of by the enemy. This to be started immediatley and in such a way that it has public visibility and credibility.

long term goal:

Unify the subcontinent into one single political entity with no presence or recognition of Islam, and whatever it takes to do this - do this unemotionally, and without getting affected by the obvious pains assocuated with consequences.

GuruNandan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 49
Joined: 07 Dec 2007 20:38
Location: US

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby GuruNandan » 28 Nov 2008 19:29

Muppalla wrote:UPA supporters are also like Pakis and everytime a Terror act happens they come back and start taking about Kandahar.

There is a stark difference. NDA might have been incompetent but they did not have terrorist supporters in their teams.

UPA is headed by a leader who cannot even call Pakistan by name in his speech. He cannot take a stand and cannot expedite the hanging of Afzal.


Exactly Muppalla. Thanks for pointing out the difference between UPA and NDA. Couldn't have said it better.

ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2006
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby ldev » 28 Nov 2008 19:39

Grow a brain mano and then post your sophisticated sounding thoughts


Fantastic!!! Ad hominem attacks continue.....

GuruNandan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 49
Joined: 07 Dec 2007 20:38
Location: US

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby GuruNandan » 28 Nov 2008 19:43

I take this opportunity to acknowledge and thank the efforts of all
BRF Admins, Mods for having done a wonderful job of posting
updates and more importantly monitering all the posts. It has
been a moment of many mixed emotions of sadness, frustration, anger, expectations and a sense of pride at the performance of our armed forces.

Haven't done anything in the past couple of days other than BRFPing.
I can imagine how tired you folks must be. But kudos again for a job
well done.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8694
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Mort Walker » 28 Nov 2008 19:55


GuruNandan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 49
Joined: 07 Dec 2007 20:38
Location: US

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby GuruNandan » 28 Nov 2008 19:56

Good analysis Brihaspathi. But i am a little more optimistic about
the complete rout of the Congress party.

Nayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2553
Joined: 11 Jun 2006 03:48
Location: Vote for Savita Bhabhi as the next BRF admin.

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Nayak » 28 Nov 2008 20:10

ldev wrote:
Fantastic!!! Ad hominem attacks continue.....


Hey one line wonder, answer the question !!!!!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122783260486063039.html

The death toll from terrorism -- not counting at least 119 killed in Mumbai on Wednesday and Thursday -- stands at over 4,000, which gives India the dubious distinction of suffering more casualties since 2004 than any country except Iraq.

In sum, the Indian approach to terrorism has been consistently haphazard and weak-kneed. When faced with fundamentalist demands, India's democratically elected leaders have regularly preferred caving to confrontation on a point of principle. The country's institutions and culture have abetted a widespread sense of Muslim separateness from the national mainstream. The country's diplomats and soldiers have failed to stabilize the neighborhood. The ongoing drama in Mumbai underscores the price both Indians and non-Indians caught unawares must now pay.
Last edited by Nayak on 28 Nov 2008 20:11, edited 1 time in total.

ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2006
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby ldev » 28 Nov 2008 20:11

Philip,

Initially,the sheer scale and lethality of the strikes were not immediately avaialable,but,given the sensitivity of the entire area of the Taj with the country's most important naval dockyard next door,with even the Yacht Club's former buildings across the road on the waterfront,now being used by the AEC,a masterplan to protect the entire area should've been in place.


Mumbai Police human intelligence is quite good regarding road ingress into Mumbai... inspite of the surface chaos that surrounds road entry into Mumbai, intel is pretty good. This was beefed up in stages after the 1993 blasts when supposedly boats landed further down the coast near Raigad with explosives and then were transported into Mumbai by road. That is why this time around the sea route was used to directly land arms and ammunition in South Mumbai within a kilometer or less of the major targets. Indicates that the terrorists had done their homework as to where the soft underbelly of their target was and did not want to take any chances of being intercepted via a road entry.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23108
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby chetak » 28 Nov 2008 20:26

amit wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Suzanna ???? Do the HFLs have a semi-hidden X-tian/M-lim name tucked in somewhere?


If I'm not mistaken Madame Roy has always been a Christian.
And one thing I can't live down is the lady has a Bengali sounding name. I find that shameful as a Bengali.


Her mother is x-tian.

Roy?
Why only bengali. :)
Roy is also mallu name no?
Roy is also a x-tian name as well.


Return to “Terrorism Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests