Indian Response to Terrorism

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sum
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by sum »

Actually that is a very handy link. ALL US situations were resolved in less than 24 hours as you can see.
Sir, kindly show me those links wherein more than 2 people were involved with actual heavy weaponry(not pistols and sticks of dynamite) which the super-duper US SF resolved within 24 hours?

The "hostage situations" described for the US teams in the link are like training sessions for the IA since they occur almost daily in J&K and are usually resolved in 8-10 hours flat( and im not being jingoistic here)
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by suvod »

No one here is discounting the fact that there were failures and shortcomings, at various levels. But to compare this with how the US agencies would have reacted in a similar situation is neither warranted nor needed. Especially when the analysis comes from CNN 'experts'. Much of the perception of aura at the US SF comes from watching hollywood movies I presume.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by bart »

Brando wrote:
Rahul M wrote: and do check the efficiency of your super-efficient western SF here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hostage_crises
Actually that is a very handy link. ALL US situations were resolved in less than 24 hours as you can see.

I would particularly like to draw parallels between the Moscow Theater Hostage crisis and the situation at the Taj. Both situations parallel in the fact that desperate terrorists held many hundreds of people hostage. In the end the OSNAZ chemical raid proved a very unique solution to the problem saving hundreds of lives. They tried to negotiate initially and then resorted to the attack in the end. There were civilian casualties there as well but the situation was resolved much more quickly and swiftly and helped Russia gain the upper hand on Chechnya.

Such a radical solution could have potentially been used on the Taj as the hostage taker was going to kill people regardless.

Can you please STFU and stop trolling? The NSG did a fantastic job when presented with a unique situation, minimizing collateral damage, and thwarting the terrorists efforts to blow up the building on live TV.

Even if there was something lacking in the NSG or Marcos, this is not the time and the place to dwell on them, today the funerals of 2 NSG commandos took place and looking at the hart-rending scenes should remind us of their supreme sacrifice, and the fact that whatever they did in the last 2 days was worth more than what you and me will do for the rest of our lives.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Dhiman »

Brando wrote: I never said 'America rocks', that is your imagination. I said this situation would not have been allowed to happen in the West.
Looking at how 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina were handled, I think you need a strong doze of reality check. Also, the US response to Indian Ocean Tsunami was pathetic. It was the Indian Navy that took action with hours. Again, goes to show that you need a reality check as far as "Western" handling of emergency situations are concerned.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Brando »

sum wrote:
In the end the OSNAZ chemical raid proved a very unique solution to the problem saving hundreds of lives. They tried to negotiate initially and then resorted to the attack in the end. There were civilian casualties there as well but the situation was resolved much more quickly and swiftly and helped Russia gain the upper hand on Chechnya.

Such a radical solution could have potentially been used on the Taj as the hostage taker was going to kill people regardless.
:-?
So, getting a operation done in 2.5 days is worse(with minimal hostage mortality once the ops started since most were anyways dead) than getting it done in 2 days with more than half the hostages dead?
2.5 days includes hostage negotiation. How much did the NSG negotiate? Do they even have hostage negotiators who are trained for this kind of thing ??
Also 700 people were rescued alive, more than 20 terrorists were killed. It took 3 days in Mumbai to kill 11 guys. I wonder how long it would have taken them if there were 20. One terrorist at the Taj held out an entire day almost by himself.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Dhiman »

akl wrote:
Brando wrote: I never said 'America rocks', that is your imagination. I said this situation would not have been allowed to happen in the West.
Looking at how 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina were handled, I think you need a strong doze of reality check. Also, the US response to Indian Ocean Tsunami was pathetic. It was the Indian Navy that took action with hours. Again, goes to show that you need a reality check as far as "Western" handling of emergency situations are concerned.

But the west has more resources, I will give you that. Except that we know know how to make good use of our limited resources and have the motivation to do so.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by sum »

Do they even have hostage negotiators who are trained for this kind of thing ??
No sir...we are a poor 3rd world country who cannot afford such luxuries :roll:

We have a pact wherein we call in super-duper American negitiators in times of crisis...Sadly, they were on sick leave this time and couldnt make it...
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Brando »

suvod wrote:No one here is discounting the fact that there were failures and shortcomings, at various levels. But to compare this with how the US agencies would have reacted in a similar situation is neither warranted nor needed. Especially when the analysis comes from CNN 'experts'. Much of the perception of aura at the US SF comes from watching hollywood movies I presume.
You presume incorrectly. Does much of the perception of the Indian special forces come from Bollywood for you ?

I think a comparison could be seen as fair. After all, it was not only Indians who were killed. And more over both the FBI, the MET had offered assistance. Taking that into account, it is reasonable to wonder would they have done any better.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Dhiman »

Brando wrote: I think a comparison could be seen as fair. After all, it was not only Indians who were killed. And more over both the FBI, the MET had offered assistance. Taking that into account, it is reasonable to wonder would they have done any better.
No way. Their trigger fingers are too ichy just like your posts. :-)
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Brando »

bart wrote:
Can you please STFU and stop trolling? The NSG did a fantastic job when presented with a unique situation, minimizing collateral damage, and thwarting the terrorists efforts to blow up the building on live TV.

Even if there was something lacking in the NSG or Marcos, this is not the time and the place to dwell on them, today the funerals of 2 NSG commandos took place and looking at the hart-rending scenes should remind us of their supreme sacrifice, and the fact that whatever they did in the last 2 days was worth more than what you and me will do for the rest of our lives.
"Hart-rending" were they ?? And I'm trolling ??

Yes, even if they were lacking something, lets not talk about it. Thats a positive attitude. I'm sure everything will be fine, people can just walk it off. :roll:
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by bart »

Brando wrote:
bart wrote:
Can you please STFU and stop trolling? The NSG did a fantastic job when presented with a unique situation, minimizing collateral damage, and thwarting the terrorists efforts to blow up the building on live TV.

Even if there was something lacking in the NSG or Marcos, this is not the time and the place to dwell on them, today the funerals of 2 NSG commandos took place and looking at the hart-rending scenes should remind us of their supreme sacrifice, and the fact that whatever they did in the last 2 days was worth more than what you and me will do for the rest of our lives.
"Hart-rending" were they ?? And I'm trolling ??

Yes, even if they were lacking something, lets not talk about it. Thats a positive attitude. I'm sure everything will be fine, people can just walk it off. :roll:
Yeah, pick on a typo... :roll:

Anyways I cant possibly imagine you being an Indian, so crawl back into the hole you came from and leave us alone.

Now, shoo...
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Dhiman »

bart wrote: Even if there was something lacking in the NSG or Marcos, this is not the time and the place to dwell on them, today the funerals of 2 NSG commandos took place
I agree. This is not some stupid Rambo movies or a forum for western commandos brooding over not being given a piece of action. Go play your games somewhere else.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

Brando wrote:The Israelis criticize the commando operations for being too soon.
and they are absolutely wrong !
this isn't a village idiot palestinian gunman holding a couple of hostages with a list of demands.
these were SF level trained operatives armed with ak-47s with more than 400 rounds each, 15 kg RDX each and about a dozen hand grenades each.
they weren't here to take hostages and bide their time but to kill as many as possible for as long as possible.

if the security forces hadn't engaged the terrorists immediately there would have been many more casualties. I guess the supermen western SF would have waited for a dozen satellite passes over the area before moving a toe.
All hostages would have been killed in the meantime and the terrorists would have commited suicide. :roll:
the real operation started ONLY after the requisite intel was gathered.
Later, news reports came out claiming contradictory reports on the status of the siege at the Taj.
how's that a fault of the security forces ? media's fault through out.
The Mumbai ATS cheif getting killed. Hijacking police vehicles.
his vehicle was ambushed by two ak-47 toting gunmen while en-route to a crime scene.

please know your facts before shooting your mouth off. :x
Actually that is a very handy link. ALL US situations were resolved in less than 24 hours as you can see.
dear sir, can you read ? can you count ?

Code: Select all

Standoff of Joseph C. Palczynski  Dundalk, Maryland 	02000-03-17 17 March 2000 	4 days

Kav 300 affair  Tel-Aviv, Israel to Ashqelon, Israel 	01984-04-12 12 April 1984 	2 days

Iranian Embassy Siege 	London, United Kingdom 	01980-04-30 30 April 1980 	6 days

Train hijack  De Punt, Netherlands 	01977-05-23 23 May 1977 	20 days

Balcombe Street Siege 	London, United Kingdom    01975-12-06 6 December 1975 	5 days

Elementary school hostage  Bovensmilde, Netherlands  01977-05-23 23 May 1977 	20 days

Indonesian consulate 	Amsterdam, Netherlands   01975-12-04 4 December 1975 15 days

Spaghetti House siege 	 London, United Kingdom 01975-09-28 28 September 1975 	6 days
shall I go on ? :wink:
the US incidents you mention are so different from this one that NO SF person worth his salt would even mention the two in the same sentence. you may of course tom tom about them all you want. those were half mad lone gunmen and these were virtually professionals.

mosquitoes to vampires as far as the capabilities are concerned.

the fact remains that the US has NEVER faced any terrorist driven hostage crisis.
the famed FBI and SWAT are untested NOVICES in this regard.

no wonder the the US green berets come to India to recieve CT training.
You presume incorrectly. Does much of the perception of the Indian special forces come from Bollywood for you ?
no, unlike unlike US HRT Indian ones have REAL experience that can be used to form perceptions.
we don't need corny movies for that.
2.5 days includes hostage negotiation. How much did the NSG negotiate? Do they even have hostage negotiators who are trained for this kind of thing ??
Also 700 people were rescued alive, more than 20 terrorists were killed. It took 3 days in Mumbai to kill 11 guys. I wonder how long it would have taken them if there were 20. One terrorist at the Taj held out an entire day almost by himself.
clearly, you know as much about SF ops as a paki knows about humane nature.
I realise I've been wasting my time replying to you.
you are trolling.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Philip »

Now that the operation is over and the grim realirty of what has taken place -which has affected every India's life forever,we on BR should put our heads together and work out where do we go from here?What should be our response to combating terror,prevention better than the cure,our foreign policy,intel policy and defence policy from now on.Perhaps we could have a seminar,along with any other organisation, on the issue at a major metro,perhaps at Bangalore during /before the next Air Show.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

bart wrote: Even if there was something lacking in the NSG or Marcos, this is not the time and the place to dwell on them, today the funerals of 2 NSG commandos took place
bart, there was nothing lacking in SF ops.

this was by far the LARGEST EVER CT operation in history with 3 multi-storey buildings spread over a portion of the city with more than a thousand rooms combined and about 100% of the hostages rescued(counting from the time the forces were called in).

this is as grand a success as possible in CT ops.
don't let any fool say otherwise.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Dhiman »

Philip wrote:Now that the operation is over and the grim realirty of what has taken place -which has affected every India's life forever,we on BR should put our heads together and work out where do we go from here
Wait couple of weeks. Let things cool a bit and public in mumbai get over the stress and then put a bomb over ISI headquarters. That will itself rid the world of half its terror planning potential.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by suvod »

Brando:

I have to concede that the initial reaction by the Mumbai police was chaotic and lacked a clear strategy. But if you really sit to scrutinize the actions of the Indian SF, I think the whole operation was executed very admirably. None of us are couter-terrorism experts and our only knowledge comes from TV reports or reading. The only other comparable incident that comes to mind is the Moscow theater siege. And if you understand that the primary objectives of any like situation is to secure hostages while limiting collateral damage, you have to agree with me that this operation was very well executed by the NSG. According to the DG-NSG, the casualties were already dead before they intervened, and they did manage to kill all the terrorists. And if you talk about negotiators, well, the GOI showd some spine this time and mandated that there won't be any negotiations.

And this stellar performance by the Indian SF (NSG, Marcos, etc.) is not unexpected, given that they have almost 2 decades of counter-terrorism and urban warfare experience. If you compare with the US, their encounter with this kind of combat is fairly recent.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Nayak »

Can we shut this brando out of BR ? NSG / Marcos came out tops. Even the babooze have to be commended. There was no interference or directions given to them. It was complete out and out military ops, a stunning success.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by viveks »

BR guys should close this thread. There is not going to be any response. I dont want to spend bandwidth..considering the past history of south asia and the softy nature..somebody better find a way to control these guys. We have remained silent for too long a time man......on one hand we goto the moon...on the other ...we end up being jolted...by puki dudes...reminding us to continue to live in the past....

oh well....god bless the motherland....good night.
Last edited by viveks on 29 Nov 2008 16:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Dilbu »

viveks wrote:BR guys should close this thread. There is not going to be any response. I dont want to spend bandwidth..considering the past history of south asia and the softy nature..somebody better find a way to control these guys. We have remained silent for too long a time man......
What are you talking about? There has been emergency response in record time from MMS regarding this crisis. Cartons of tea and buscuit has been rushed in to PM's residence. Everything is safe and secure. Lets go back to sleep.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

I have to concede that the initial reaction by the Mumbai police was chaotic and lacked a clear strategy. But if you really sit to scrutinize the actions of the Indian SF, I think the whole operation was executed very admirably. None of us are couter-terrorism experts and our only knowledge comes from TV reports or reading. The only other comparable incident that comes to mind is the Moscow theater siege. And if you understand that the primary objectives of any like situation is to secure hostages while limiting collateral damage, you have to agree with me that this operation was very well executed by the NSG. According to the DG-NSG, the casualties were already dead before they intervened, and they did manage to kill all the terrorists. And if you talk about negotiators, well, the GOI showd some spine this time and mandated that there won't be any negotiations.
I wonder what prevents you guys from picking up the basics before you make comments ?

the mumbai attack was NOTHING like the moscow siege except the numbers involved.

there, the terrorists wanted to free other terrorists from jail, killing hostages was a tactic and NOT an objective.

here, killing hostages was the prime and ONLY objective with NO demand whatsoever.

although our resident genius tells us :
2.5 days includes hostage negotiation. How much did the NSG negotiate? Do they even have hostage negotiators who are trained for this kind of thing ??
:x
negotiate for what dear expert, hackle on the number of houris the terrorists expected in zannat ?
FYI, the NSG negotiators did talk with the terrorists in the initial part of the ops to keep them engaged.
Also 700 people were rescued alive, more than 20 terrorists were killed. It took 3 days in Mumbai to kill 11 guys. I wonder how long it would have taken them if there were 20. One terrorist at the Taj held out an entire day almost by himself.
great metric you got there, time taken/terrorist ! :roll:

I must commend you on this pathbreaking work, do tell us when you get the nobel ! :roll:
for NSG this value is 60 hrs/11 = 5.45 hrs/terrorist.

using this metric I can calculate that US SF would have taken 11 X 96 = 1056 hrs i.e 44 days to resolve this crisis. :wink:
Not bad for an inexperienced ill-trained force, eh ?

reference: Joseph C. Palczynski.

disclaimer: The above is really high funda stuff, only people like our resident genius can understand it in entirety. I doubt if any of you third worlders are going to understand it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by suvod »

Rahul:

I do understand that the Moscow and Mumbai situations have nothing in common except perhaps the scale and audacity. And I'm not doing a qualitative or for that matter quantitative of the nobel-winning variety, comparison of the two. Just wanted to point out that Mumbai was secured with minimum casualties and collateral damage, thx to our SF. Same cannot be said about the Spetznaz.

Anyway, we have digressed from the topic too much. We were discussing possible responses when this troll left this stinker.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

sorry for the harsh response.

but this so-called incompetence of NSG is getting too much air. It's better to get it out of the way, even if it is a digression.
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PAKISTANI SSG COMMANDO RAID ON MUMBAI

Post by ANJAN SENGUPTA »

http://bengalunderattack.blogspot.com/2 ... india.html

This was a classic commando raid replete with beach landing et al. It had all the markings of a thorough Pakistani SSG trained operation – which makes it a Pakistani Army action.

This was not your ordinary terrorist operation – our NSG commandos can flush these “terrorists” out in 10 minutes flat – no more. What Mumbai saw, was a sophisticated assault by Pakistan on India.

The total number of terrorists who came to India are rumored to be 40, of which 29 are Pakistani and the rest from Bangladesh. About 20 came in a week before and the rest a few days back from sea. A couple of them were in India for some time, having found jobs in catering divisions of hotels that were attacked to facilitate arms storage and logistics through service areas. Not all, I expect, will be commando trained - neither will the majority be ex-army / commando embedded in LeT (Lashkar e Tayyiba). What is interesting this time - India has captured one terrorist alive and though badly injured, apparently he is being made to SING and SINGING he is. :)

Let’s look at the footprints of a classic commando raid : It had stealth “undetected” entry, speed, precision, accuracy, cohesion, ferocity and aggression, clarity of thought and action, planning and reconnoitering, dry runs and degree of resistance.

What gave them away too was weapons handling, the way to hold and fire assault rifles, the way to throw grenades etc. Like a good martial artist knows another good martial artist, our NSG and MARCOS commandos knew they were up against (mostly) SSG trained commandos.

Whatever our media tells us or puts a spin, make no mistake, this was an out and out classic commando raid.

They took down a NSG officer and a few commandos.

Hence these “terrorists” were not the ordinary terrorists one encounters around the world. They received 3 months standard high end commando training by SSG trainers. A few could have been terrorists drawn from the usual basket, but the best of the best to have to pass the gruelling commando course. Normally, these small groups of commando saboteurs are led by SSG Major and I will not be surprised to see one in this raid too.

These commando terrorists did not hide their faces, and it looks like they wanted to convey a message that they were commandos. Which gives rise to the question – Pakistan wanted to send a message to India – what could that be?

ISI Chief and Gen Kiyani are coming to India(NOW IT TRANSPIRES, THEY ARE NOT AND ARE SENDING "REPRESENTATIVES" (yawn !!). Expect nothing much out of this. The old story will be played out. India will offer “proof of Pakistani involvement” and Pakistan will deny it.

I am making a couple of brazen statement here.

1. Gen Kiyani was involved in the Indian embassy blast in Kabul. He is involved in the Mumbai blasts too. Captured Pakistani terrorists have sung praises of Gen Kiyani for being one of the best “teacher” and a “motivator”.

2. The lines have blurred between Al Qaeda, Taliban and Pakistan Army. The Pakistan Army is heavily embedded in both Al Qaeda and Taliban. Earlier Pakistan Army used to lead raids in other countries through the garb of these mujahideen fighters, now it leads as well as runs these from within. These soldiers have gone “native” and dress and move as Al Qaeda / Taliban.

3. A highly trained SSG commando killed Benazir Bhutto. Those in the know say that this tall lithe man stood and fired three steady shots, and after each shot unwaveringly brought the firing position back to same spot to fire again - hallmark of a commando trained for VVIP killings.

4. Killing of 10 French soldiers in Afghanistan and Samba infiltration in India bore all the hallmarks of a SSG commando operation.

Pakistan army is completely at odds with the US Agenda in Afghanistan and does not want to fight the tribals / Taliban in its north west. Because it is akin to fighting one Pakistan army regiment with another and Pakistan army cannot carry on the sham attacks on Taliban for too long. If attacks carry on any longer, these Tribal militias and Taliban operatives that are not drawn out from Pakistan army, will feel "betrayed" by Pakistan Army's offensive on its cadres (already being felt) and this will lead to disastrous destabilising consequences within Pakistan.

It wants to divert the army's attention back to its eastern borders with India - and the Mumbai attacks would increase the Indian threat perception which will entail Pakistan moving its army divisions from Afghanistan border to the Indian border. This will allow Taliban (aka Pakistan army embedded in Taliban) to freely move and mount operations in Afghanistan against NATO / ISAF forces. How convenient?

OPERATIONALLY HOW COULD THIS BE MOUNTED?

It has been a well thought of strategy of Pakistan Army to embed the Taliban and terrorist organizations like Lashkar e Taiyyba, Jaish e Mohammad, Lashkar e Jahagvi with its own soldiers and commandos. These army recruits blend in with Taliban and terror organizations, deemed to have gone "native", maybe without the knowledge of Taliban / terror organizations who are just happy to have received high class "recruits".

Pakistan Army, through ISI, now draws back its own cadres from Taliban and these terror organizations for special operations around the globe. For Mumbai attacks, Lashkar e Taiyyba was chosen - but the actual foot soldiers were ex-army soldiers including SSG commandos (leading the charge) already embedded in these organizations - as well as a few battle hardened fidayeen terrorists. These LeT "terrorists" were given rigourous training by either current or ex-SSG commando trainers (sufficiently bearded to evade detect) who will probably be known as Gen Saab or Gen Mohd (aka John Doe).

After training, the underworld network of Dawood Ibrahim takes over the logistics of ferrying these so called "terrorists" to India and within India. The arms shipment is taken care by a specialized unit of Pakistan Army that affords it complete deniability.

PAKISTAN MILITARY OBJECTIVES:

1. Stop Pakistan Army fight its own cadres in the Taliban along the Afghanistan border where it is actively engaged in destabilising Afghanistan.

2. Create sufficient terror in India to increase the threat to Pakistan from India

3. Shift the Pakistan Army regiments from Afghan border to the Indian border thereby facilitating active sabotage of Afghanistan and ensuring the defeat of NATO / ISAF forces.

4. That Kashmir elections are going on, gives it a perfect cover. People may mistake that this was a LeT operation for Kashmir. RED HERRING.

5. There could be some "terrorists" with foreign passports. Jews were targetted and killed. This to show that this was an Al Qaeda operation and create sound bytes for the media. Make no mistake - these people were trained in Pakistan, and they were part of Pakistani army operation.

MAKE NO MISTAKE: ATTACK ON MUMBAI WAS A PAKISTAN ARMY OPERATION WITH CLEAR MILITARY OBJECTIVES.

What next then?

PM Manmohan Singh is in a bind. He has to take a TOUGH stand (ELCTIONS on the horizon, and few state elections underway) and might have to request Gen Kiyani with folded hands to co-operate : in other words, to allow India a few cross-border hot pursuits, to bolster his party’s soft image before elections (which I DOUBT will be granted. Pakistan may ban LeT and place Hafiz Sayeed in a plush AC accomodation "house arrest" till the heat dies down and it will continue to feign ignorance about whereabouts of Dawood Ibrahim..

INDIA, as usual, will be shortchanged. Expect nothing more than that.

Pakistan has played its card well, and as usual India has NO answers to give.

We do not have national database of criminals, no digital imaging / fingerprinting recognition software, no video surveillance, no dedicated centralized terrorism fighting unit of an adequate size, no uniform “patriot act”, no dedicated helicopters / gunships for ATS, no regular training for ATS, not adequate body armour, antiquated weaponry, no bi-partisan electoral support wracked as it is with vote bank politics – and if we are not a soft target, then what are we?

On top of that, ISRAEL has slammed INDIA for ham handed approach towards rescue operations. I agree. The way media was given latitude to cover the events live was shocking to say the least, it could have given inputs to terrorist inside.

I wish to end with a text message I got from INDIAN ARMY:

“FORGIVING TERRORISTS IS LEFT TO GOD. BUT FIXING THEIR APPOINTMENT WITH GOD IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY.”

JAI HIND !
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by suvod »

Rahul: No offense taken and no apologies required.

Meanwhile, CNN-IBN is reporting that Zardari has promised access to Hafiz Sayed. What does access mean? Deport?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by chetak »

Nimble footed, barefaced liars!

Dawn today
http://www.dawn.com/2008/11/29/top1.htm

Govt accepts India’s plea for ISI help in Mumbai probe
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Dilbu »

suvod wrote:Rahul: No offense taken and no apologies required.

Meanwhile, CNN-IBN is reporting that Zardari has promised access to Hafiz Sayed. What does access mean? Deport?
More likely we will have to make a questionnaire on the details we want from Hafiz Sayed and hand it over to ISI. Once they take it back and finish rolling over with laughter over a glass of zam zam cola, we will hopefully get a cooked up answer sheet. Access provided as promised onlee.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by RajeshA »

If the same thing had happened in the West, I can safely say that it wouldn't take 3 days and cost nearly 200 lives to kill just 11 terrorists no matter how well they were armed or trained. The level of competence of this operations shows just how good the Indian commando's really are. From the results, not nearly as good as all the people here lead others to believe.
WACO!!!
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by GuruNandan »

It was a national humiliation
Arvind Lavakare


Arvind Lavakare may be 71, but the fire in his belly burns stronger than in many people half his age. The economics post-graduate worked with the Reserve Bank of India and several private and public sector companies before retiring in 1997. His first love, however, remains sports. An accredited cricket umpire in Mumbai, he has reported and commented on cricket matches for newspapers, Doordarshan and AIR. Lavakare has also been regularly writing on politics since 1997, and published a monograph, The Truth About Article 370, in 2005.

Hang your heads in shame, my countrymen. Do it because a dozen-odd terrorists traveled 500 nautical miles of the Arabian sea from Karachi to Mumbai’s Gateway of India, just opposite the grandiose Taj Mahal Hotel and proceeded to humble the city of 16.4 million into utter helpless ness for over 48 hours even as over 125 civilians and some distinguished professional security men lost their lives to the hand grenades and rifle bullets of a fanatical mindset. It was a humiliation worse than the drubbing the Chinese army gave us in 1961.

‘ Special: Mumbai under siege’
It was because our motherland, India, is a soft nation, tested and proven so several times. Despite the weighty evidence of Clement Atlee, the Britain’s post World War II prime minister to the contrary, the Congress party brainwashed the entire nation, including the press, that it was the non-violence strategy of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi that brought us independence.

Atlee had expressed fears regarding the rage of Subhash Chandra Bose’s Indian National Army as a reason for its decision to give us independence; another reason was that World War II had liquidated the British Empire and left it to ration even eggs to the citizens of England. But Gandhi disliked Bose’s guts and gumption and Nehru sent the officers of the valiant INA to a secret trial in the Red Fort.

Complete coverage of Mumbai terror drama......


http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14808303
A_Gupta
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by A_Gupta »

SSridhar wrote:Nothing will happen.

There is a huge American and British (of course, the Brits do not matter to India) operation under way to put India on the defensive, defuse the situation, joint probe etc.
Comment from one of my readers:
Our state is not inept, our decisionmaking machinery is unable to thwart the American framing of the issue - that Pakistan needs to be rescued from itself and India must grin and bear such attacks for that reason.

This ready alibi which US provides feeds the megalomania of Pak and Bangladeshi military's wrt India and everytime Indians or Afghans are massacred by Pakistan proxies, the US steps forward to reward them by vouching for Pakistanis 'sincerity' and raining down more dollars on them.

Until India repudiates the US framing and US hypocrisy about groups like Lashkar e Taiba, India will never get anywhere. India is essentially fighting a war against an Army and terrorist groups directly or indirectly armed and funded by the US.

For a start India needs to expel the US ambassador, I don't see what his function is except to offer alibis for Pakistan in such situations.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SaiK »

PM having an emergency meeting with defence chiefs, for "prevention of such attacks in the future"!~ huh!.or is the ddm news a twist /spin.

I want to know why would PM have emergency meeting with armed chiefs, for prevention. This can be handled by some other group.

Let the target acquisition system be advanced.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by enqyoob »

PM having an emergency meeting with defence chiefs, for "prevention of such attacks in the future"!

Chair seat feeling warm. Getting worried what will happen when the Pakis come into Dilli with equal ease.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by RajeshA »

This is what Indian SF need:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuMHhw_w1qs

and either DRDO develops something similar, or India should import it.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by GuruNandan »

I share the sense that some of you expressed that there is
a big effort in the Western world to shield Pakistan from
the after effects of this incident. We don't have national leaders
who can show the courage to counter attack. That is
why i am amazed at how Israel responds to such situations.

They have always been firm, resolute and decisive in such
situations. Once an American GI told me that the Americans
feared and respected the Israelis for that.

MMS cuts a very sorry picture. I don't think Advani would fare
any better. May be Modi would. I don't see anyone that
can provide that kind of leadership except Modi.

You can see the history of Mossad on YouTube and how they
responded to the 'Munich Massacre'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1QlgBX ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjum_hXW ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtVB4lTI ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTj8KJql ... re=related
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

This is the first time since the Mumbai attacks I've posted on BR and spending Thanksgiving in the US I should say that I am thankful that my family doesnt have to live in a country ruled by the impotent and the craven. I've been essentially following the story continuously here on CNN America (which has given it total coverage ) and everything I've seen and heard about this situation leads me to believe that India deserved this attack. All the shame, humiliation and loss it brought with it are also deserved for its reckless apathy and lackadaisical attitude towards terrorism. Any Prime minister with even an iota of dignity would dissolve the Parliament and call for fresh elections after such a colossal failure. Now, we KNOW that Manmohan Singh is a gutless and pathetic man who I wouldnt even hire to secure my house, apparently Indian voters think he can protect their country (or rather Sonia "Gandhi" should I say).

The entire operation that was shown to the whole world was so amateurish and pathetic that it baffled the mind that Mumbai police and Indian police were so utterly useless. The fire brigades, from the last century, were totally incapable of putting out a simple fire for hours, they didnt even have enough fire hydrants! The so called famed "NSG" couldnt even clear the Taj for more than 24 hours. The much talked about "RAW" was useless. There was no semblance of any preservation of the "crime scene" for future forensic analysis, no perimeter, mobs were just let loose to spectate and the worst thing was there was no official government spokesperson to inform the Indian public and the world at large of what the devil was going on until very late in the game and the message from the Indian Prime Minister were banal platitudes that say nothing. It was truly the picture of a banana republic.

If the same thing had happened in the West, I can safely say that it wouldn't take 3 days and cost nearly 200 lives to kill just 11 terrorists no matter how well they were armed or trained. The level of competence of this operations shows just how good the Indian commando's really are. From the results, not nearly as good as all the people here lead others to believe.

This entire episode should be examined with a cold eye to learn from the experience. A country that accepts sporadic terrorist attacks in its stride is merely foolish and its citizenry accepting incompetence from their elected officials even more so. Truly, the deaths of all those who died in all these attacks are not on the hands of the people in mountains of Afghanistan or the madrassas of Pakistan but rather the Indian citizens themselves for electing such ineffectual leaders. If you cant secure your own house, you cant blame the psychopath for entering and slitting your throats while you sleep. The Indian electorate deserves every single terrorist attack and suicide bombing and anyone killed for the choices it makes on election day.

As Hindu scriptures say, this was all your 'Karma'.

Brando,

you are a once in a kind, idiot for making that post at this time, and since your other posts in this forum on india and indian affairs, all reeking of condescension in similar manner, we should not be surprised.

like i said earlier in another thread, events like this have peoples character starkly thrown up, whether manmohans incompetence or patils waffling or video game flunkies like you who talk of topics you have zero idea about but still think you are superior.

i am thankful you are in the US. if you were in india you would not have done anything to resolve the matter but would have been part of the indian elite whoses asses got saved by the NSG.
it is also equally true that your post is what one would expect of armchair warrior with a tvideo game understanding of SF operations. gee wow, 1 day, boom! ya man, tangos killed!! give me high five man!! we rock!!

the 200 odd casualties are thanks to the pre NSG /Marcos introduction when the terrorists had a chance to spray away. within few hours the Marcos were at the scene and got time till NSG arrived. in mumbai, the indian SF have done something few other SF in the world have ever achieved. they have saved almost ALL the remaining hostages at the cost of their own lives. they even held off using their weaponry & heavy weapons at the disposal till the guys executed few remaining hostages they had. perhaps elsewhere, they would have rushed in and blown up the entire place writing the hostages death as a given. the NSG did not have this luxury.

some brains are required while talking about this particular OP. there were 800 rooms and several floors across two different buildings and then a third building. all with hostage situation. at every room, nsg had to secure, clear the area and proceed, all the while under fire from terrorists, and being grenaded. they did it.

the key is to decide when to strike. it is now accepted worldwide that storming operations involve collateral damage & fancy options (sleeping gas) dont always work. the nsg overcame this in mumbai at the cost of three troops. the marcos did not wait for reinforcements but rushed in because they knew they had to buy NSG time. the army did the same.

ill equipped mumbai police were first to rush in arms way. then army and MARCOS came into the fight without complaining while you were busy stuffing yourself at thanksgiving. while you were revelling the rest of us indians were watching this as it unfolded, looking at the sheer bravery of the nsg and getting our faith in our "banana republic" nation back.

then for 2 days and 2 nights straight, the NSG has fought room by room floor by floor to save lives. they have killed all the terrorists displaying methodical & consistent competence and have chosen to pay the loss in manpower who know what the balidan badge means. in fact most SF across the world will realise what the NSG achieved. your post however would be framed as an example of what the john rambo movies have done to the average youths mind about combat.

the fire brigades were not brought in because the terrorists started the fire as a diversionary tactic and the NSG fought through the fire. and did not want firebrigade / civilians to get harmed. even so Taj staff members and fire brigade, rescued hostages by the dozen while being fired upon.
what were you doing at that time in your "not banana republic"? warming a chair?

as i write this post, i have faith in india because havaldars gajendra singh and chander did their duty and karma, and major unnikrishnan refused to have his team try to rescue him even when he was cut off and trapped. you would not even know what the term means.

they saved the lives of hundreds of innocents and added to a list of operations, now 106 where they are yet to have lost versus the opponent and failed the nation.

you can take your much vaunted western SF and shove them up your posterior or rather pray to your deity that something like this never happens in the US, once Obama pulls back the honeytrap of US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. everyone with even a bit of knowledge about the SF knows what the NSG faced and what they overcame. i also hope it does not happen in the US just so that you can learn what happened in Mumbai. the people of the US are not to blame for your obnoxious stupidity.

so my dear superior coconut, we Indians in India will do what we will to kick this incompetent Govt out and elect someone else. we dont need you in the US to come to BRF and brag about your counterstrike and HALO3 experience. your much superior US is still unable to dominate the ground in Afghanistan against the same opponents whom India has dominated for decades in kashmir.

keep telling yourself of your own superiority and pray that what happened in mumbai does not happen in your city. your belief will be shattered and so will be your arrogance but i hope it does not occur. like i said the nation of america is not responsible for its internet warriors.

the real professionals of detachment delta, the SAS, GSG-9 will be getting in touch with their counterparts in india, appreciating what they did & also learning from them in how to avoid such an incident from occurring and what the indians did.

that of course is the difference between professionals & people venting such crass foolishness as you have done, on internet.
Last edited by Vikram_S on 29 Nov 2008 21:00, edited 2 times in total.
SaiK
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SaiK »

RajeshA wrote:This is what Indian SF need:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuMHhw_w1qs

and either DRDO develops something similar, or India should import it.
sure and must. good one!.. furthermore, we need similar materials for head, arms and legs pads., perhaps even advance further into trek mode, having flexible joints made of similar material.

similar materials can be used for tanks and other force patrol vehicle skins inside and/or outside.

drdo has a project now, to get this ToT or all done by themselves. It would be relaxing to see only when some one posts the actual use by NSG and our commandos.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

Brando wrote:
suvod wrote:at least we don't have
a. politicians like Bush who recites nursery rhymes while terrorist land planes inside buildings
b. crisis mgmt agencies (!!) like FEMA who handled Katrina so brilliantly
c. security forces who are brave only when fighting from 20,000ft above the ground

somebody put a tape on this turd's mouth. The stench is offensive.
Obviously you dont have the courage to look at this critically and dispassionately and thus the futile and pathetic insults.

FACT: After 9/11 there has not been a single terrorist attack within the US.

Cant you say the same after any Indian leader acted upon terrorism ? If you think Bush was bad, you should hate your PM. At least Bush has kept America terror free since 2002.

It doesnt matter if it 20,000 ft or 20 feet. Fighting terrorism is not a bravery contest, it is about killing terrorists. The more the better.
typical armchair warrior bullsh*t. why do we have to put up with you at a time like this? this too must be indian failing. like we elect stupid leaders who cannot defend us, we also have you to make such posts. you must be at east partly indian for this theorem to be true.

the US has invaded iraq and afghanistan and have provided a great combat zone for thousands of Arab/Paki fighters worldwide. losing hundreds of troops in the process, devastating a country, and bankrupting their own economy. good work. much easier for them to attack there than crossing continents to the US.

if you had not, we would have seen how effective your services would have been in preventing terror attacks. like europe was. if india follows the US method, it will be bankrupt and it will lose. which is why your coaltion of the willing in iraq is now cutting tail and running. because they like france realise they cannot afford such a wasterful war.

the only futile and pathetic insults here are from you in terms of such incredibly stupid posts. which hurt our brains and our mind at a time when we have to put up with terrorism, waste leadership and now we have to tolerate gross stupidity on the forum also. bush is such a success that obama won with a thumping vote against mc cain and the democrats rule roost. the us public has really rewarded him for success.

now do us all favour and go hang out on some US website where you can brag about cool gear US army has and rah rah! leave all the banana republic people to talk about their own mess. thank you.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by samuel »

Standard Logic:

Pakistan is a victim of terrorism. There are many Pakistans and what happened are not due to state actors but jihadi groups or rogue elements. It would not be advisable to raise rhetoric. We must fight this jointly.

It is not clear whether these are Pakistanis. They seem to be Kashmiris. Kashmir is of course disputed. No evidence of British...Indians claim that....archrival Pakistan.

Share your evidence.

We need to nudge the two together so our strategic objectives in Afghanistan can be met.
-------------

There are other standard lines that are coming back (or maybe they never left) from the dead. So,

1. Please ensure that the terrorist rant is downloaded saved and made perpetually accessible somehow. Before department of Intimidation & Backstabbing does its job.

2. Make sure the photos are too.

3. Write to prime minister and ask him how he intends to deal with the Pakistan question. Don't let this fade away. Tell him he has not lived up to your expectations and "reach for his conscience" which I really think he has a really strong one of.

4. Write to Obama and ask him how he intends to solve the terrorism problem by supporting a state sponsor of Terrorism.

5. Write articles in all the major newspapers in India, US, UK, and Israel. Recount the sequence of events, clarify our understanding of people and their methods. In different ways till it sticks.

6. Offer the alternative to this classic gridlock here on BRF, .ie. a solution to the Pakistan closure problem?

7. Do not let people forget. Create a memorial and make that a standard tour stop for people who visit Mumbai. Plaque and photo the stories of the Rabbi and the Rabbinit, of Karkare and Kamte and Salakar, of Unnikrishnan and Gajendra Singh and other victims.
Write down the names of terrorists and their citizenship and origin, and the story of Pakistani terrorism. Tell them of western support of a terrorist state and how it subverts democracy and good governance. Create a walking or "rikshaw" or "horse buggy" tour of the whole area.

JMT of course.
S
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

RajeshA wrote:
If the same thing had happened in the West, I can safely say that it wouldn't take 3 days and cost nearly 200 lives to kill just 11 terrorists no matter how well they were armed or trained. The level of competence of this operations shows just how good the Indian commando's really are. From the results, not nearly as good as all the people here lead others to believe.
WACO!!!
indeed sir.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

clearly marlon brando was not there, to teach the "elite" ATF/FBI etc to clear the building in two minutes.

and it has all the beloved western experts involved, including SAS advisor and US SF.
another example of oh so superior west vs india:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

unfortunately john rambo was not there also to overcome everyone in five minutes.
Last edited by Vikram_S on 29 Nov 2008 19:56, edited 1 time in total.
enqyoob
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by enqyoob »

Vikram_S: It is the position of the NeoCons and other diehard Republicans that American policy has been successful in preventing attacks on the CONUS.

IOW, the brilliant idea of the Republicans is to send some 150,000 young men and women to the lair of the terrorists so that the Pakis can conveniently shoot them and blow them up on their timetable, instead of going to all the trouble to set up missions to come across the oceans to the US. And, of course, pay the Paki Generals some $$$$BB in baksheesh as Protection Money.

Hope you see the sheer brilliance of this logic.

To quote from Don McLean:
Well this is life, this is Prime time
This is livin' in the U. S. A.
Well this is life, this is Prime Time
This is livin' the American way..

...
I was ridin' on the subway in the afternoon
I saw some kids 'a beatin' out a funky tune
The lady right in front of me was old and brown
The kids began to push her, they knocked her down
I tried to help her out but there was just no way
A life ain't worth a damn on the street today
I passed the ambulance and the camera crews
I saw the instant replay on the evening news

My supper's on the stove, the war is on the screen
Pass the bread and butter while I watch the Marine
The shot him in the chest--Pass the chicken breast!
The general is saying that he's still unimpressed.
"We had to burn the city 'cause they wouldn't agree
That things go better with democracy!"
Don McLean may have been banned today for being sarcastic, but today's fine Republicans see absolutely no irony in claiming that "there has been not a single attack in the USA" as they bury the 4300+th body from the "GOAT" on top of the 2300+ who died on 9/11. Add to that some 50,000 very seriously traumatized Americans "veterans", most under 30. Nah! THEY have no right to aspire to the American Dream. Nor their relatives as they face the ruinous medical bills to fund the Porsches and vacation homes for the doctors and radiologists and hospital money counters and the insurance executives with their $400,000 "bonus retreats" and saunas.

Many veterans sleep on park benches for they are homeless.

Oh, yeah, the US Govt has protected America and Americans from terror! Be like America!
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