Indian Response to Terrorism

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Shreeman
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Shreeman »

I get a sense ANOTHER moment of "tactical brilliance" is imminent. Just that feeling, you know. Hope its wrong.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Prem »

narayanan wrote:OK, my terminological inexcusability there. Pumpkin it is. :mrgreen:
And Rajmata As Umm _Khaadims. :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Prem »

Pak asks India to share Mumbai attacks evidence
Updated at: 0520 PST, Sunday, November 30, 2008
ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari chaired an important meeting at the President House late Saturday.

Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and some federal ministers participated in the meeting.

The prevailing situation due to the recent incidents of terrorism in Mumbai came under discussion. President Zardari assured India of Pakistan’s full cooperation in investigating the Mumbai Terror attacks. “But let the evidence come to light and investigation take its course”, he said.

The President said terrorism is “regional threat, this is a world threat and all the reason we have to stand up against this threat together. He said there was complete unanimity of views between Pak army and the civilian government. Zardari said the government had already taken stern action militants outfits being named by India.
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp?id=61323
Shreeman
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Shreeman »

Another humble suggestion onlee. Kindlee contemplate adding:

"while your reports routinely add india pakistan relationship and references to kashmir where they are irrelevant to the story, you conveniently choose to continue to ignore pakistan's creation of taliban, tolerance (at least) of several groups on state department's terrorism watch list, demonstrated involvement of pakistanis in the murder of members of NATO and US forces in afghanistan, danger to the GOAT supply routes in afghanistan, and pakistan's routine abuse of its own citizens even where it is relevant. Many of these are facts the US government routinely includes in its travel warnings."

when you comment. My prior recommendation of leaving the

"Give peace a chance, ..."

is still just as relevant. Lets get "Give peace a chance" to stand for the right thing.

PS: CNN is highlighting J&K differently from India again in its live coverage.
Vivek Sreenivasan
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vivek Sreenivasan »

Hey guys this is my analysis of the situation with regards to terrorism in India. It not pretty but i am forced to come to these conclusions.

Basically if you want the short story India is going to be as vulnerable to terrorist attacks for the next 5 to 10 years as it has been so far in 2008. How have i come to this grim conclusion?
Well read my arguments below.

1) The security apparatus in India is going to have to be MASSIVELY revamped. Just to give an indication of the things that need to be done. Setting up of a effective coastal intrediction process, this is going to require more coastguard vessels and people to be trained to handle those vessels.

2) Revamp Mumbai police, equip them with modern firearms and train them to stay aleart and focused. The time when they can enjoy chai while on duty and read newspapers has long passed.

3) Revamp RAW, obviously RAW is not as effective as it should be otherwise all these terrorist attacks originating out of Pakistan would not take place. This will require new recruits and training.

4) Set up a federal agency that has the jursidiction in National and international crimes like terrorism. Obvioulsy this is going again to require a lot of time to set up training and recruiting as well as setting up facilities.

5) Re-distribute the anti-terror fighting forces to the major-metropolises and set up facilities from which they can maintain 24/7 coverage of the city. Effective coordination with the police will also have to be set up. Again this will take time. You will have to build the facilities to house these anti-terror forces and other logistics etc.

The above are five things that need to be done ASAP. But how long will it actually take? Given India's burdensome beureaucracy. I estimate a period of at a minimumum of 5 to a maximum of 10 years. So my grim analysis is that for the next 5 years at least were going to see Mumbai like attacks with depressing regularity. I dont like this analysis but i am forced to come to it.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Anabhaya »

The Intel agencies passed memos specifically alerting certain establishments and to the possibility of a sea-attack. What intel failure? Why are we still flogging that horse? :roll:
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vivek Sreenivasan »

Let me just go through a list of failures that occurred to allow this terrorist attack to first of all take place and secondly to be as devastating as it has been.

1) Intelligence failure-no need to explain apart from saying it was both domestic and international. The terrorists spent considerable period of time in Mumbai before attacks.

2) Coastal security failure.

3) Lassize faire attitude by police- one of the civillians informed the police when the terrorists LANDED that they were suspicious but no action taken.

4) Again Police failure- Reported at the CST terminal that mumbai police took no action even when they were armed with firearms. Honestly this would be funny if it aint so tragic. The police were armed with obsolete .303 rifles that probably wern't even loaded. Even if they were they probably hadn't fired a round in their life and lacked confidence in using them.

5) ATS failure- Remember guys this is supposed to be our ANTI-TERRORIST TASKFORCE
again they were armed with some bloddy obsolete weapons and just went straight in without first sussing out the situation. They got what was coming, 3 top officers killed as well as other police.

6) Bloddy slow response time- it took the NSG 9.30 hours to get to the scene. Link Below. I dont think i need to say more. If they had got there withing half hour many dozens of lives would have been saved.

hours.http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Why_ ... 775003.cms


So as you can see 6 things went wrong that fateful night if anyone of them had gone right these terrorist attacks might have been prevented or at least contained. It actually requires multiple failures of the security apparatus for the terroists to break through. Out apparatus miserably failed. Im not tarnishing the reputation of the NSG, once they finally got on the scene they did a splendid job.
Vivek Sreenivasan
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vivek Sreenivasan »

Anabhaya from what i understand the intelligence was too general in nature and not specific enough. Also when did domestic intelligence fail. Is it that easy for LeT operatives to enter India to suss out targets before strike?
kapilrdave
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by kapilrdave »

Guyz, let's try to turn this disaster to an opportunity.
This is the best reason and motive for us to take over the POK.
A few evidence relating POK and a few diplomatic and political smart steps would make this possible.

And given the current situation in Porkies they would not dare to open other fronts.
If at all they do, it's in our favour :evil:

But but but, having an opportunity and grabbing it are different things altogether.

I suggest to conduct a 'Chudiyan rally' to Sansad bhavan and throw tons of Chudis to our great leaders.
samuel.chandra
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MumbaiAttack:Playing the game the way politicians understand

Post by samuel.chandra »

Initially I sent this draft out to MMS and Sonia's websites. Then figured why not act before most people move on from this topic.

Summary: The plan is to keep this issue alive for 6 months so this remains a big election item. If the congress is smart about it, they will retaliate and not give the BJP the chance to capitalize. As ordinary citizens, the only option we have is play politics the way the politicians understand. So here's the petition. Very early draft. Please feel free to make changes. This is nothing original... have compiled it from reading gurus at BRF for years... have no problem if anyone wants to take the lead on this. We can start a new thread if we get sufficient response to this.

Let's do a systematic analysis of how Indian public should respond to Mumbai carnage.
====================================================================================

A) First, let's look at the parties involved from Pakistan.
----------------------------------------------------------
A1) The elected Govt. and the president.
Both impotent. No point talking. Even if they deliver POK to us tomorrow, the ISI will keep formenting trouble.

A2) Army and the ISI.
ISI probably more than Army has control over the situation.


B) So what are our options with A2?
-------------------------------------
B1) Can we negotiate with A2. Nope. Their only objective is to keep India down like their own under-developed nation. If you need a reminder, just read the article about how Captain Kalia was tortured: http://www.petitiononline.com/LtKalia/petition.html

B2) Can we ask Pakistan to hand over Dawood /Chota shakeel/Massod Azhar. We can..but it will drag on for ever and never actually happen based on past experience.

B3) Can we ask the US/British lobby to put pressure on Pakistanis to deliver B2. They have been largely unsuccessful at getting anything from Pakistanis even after paying them, threatening them and bombing them.

B4) Can we ask our current Govt to send troops across the border. Bomb key camps across the border. Cause pain to the handlers (who are obviously rejoicing at the carnage they have caused in Mumbai). We can. But from all indications, Congress is looking to drag this on by talking to everyone until the issue becomes irrelevant. The Americans and the British are looking to actively help the congress in its quest for inaction. They need the Pakistanis to concentrate on the Afghan border and a conflict in the east is bad for them.

B5) Is the BJP better. Yes, slightly. Their track record is not exactly stellar. They are making noises about security. But they are not coming out clearly saying they will cross the border and teach the Pakis a good lesson. They are talking about security but it’s fuzzy. The actual action that would be taken is not clear. If the BJP clarifies their plan, clearly, categorically, yes, we could vote for them.

B6) We secure every major building in all the major cities. Any temporary let up in security could still cause a Mumbai kind incident. But it's possible. Very expensive, not very practical, not error proof, spreading ourselves too thin. Any concentrated attack on one location with enough force to go over the threshold can cause a Mumbai like situation again. So theoretically possible, but don't think, very practical.

Options to be explored further: B4, B5. See section E.

C) Consequences of inaction
---------------------------
C1) We remain a soft target. The next attack will be more audacious (possibly a dirty nuclear bomb in a city center).

C2) You or your loved once will fall victims to a Paki bomb at some point. It's a question of probability. It's like you are walking blindfolded thru a mine-field.

C3) The Paki terrorists laugh at you because they think you are impotent. This is pretty much how the Hindu kingdoms were repeatedly attacked, pillaged and raped by the Islamists until they finally took over. Obviously, they know that we haven’t learnt much from our history. Are they wrong?

C4) The investments dry up. The world loses confidence in India's security climate and stops investing. All that we have worked for is being destroyed by these barbarians. Repeat of history...don’t you think?

D) Consequences of action (a partial / full war)
------------------------------------------------
D1) The unknown. We don't know the outcome. Risk = Reward, people! Besides what do we have to lose now. They have already attacked all the economic centers of India in the past few attacks. They are in severe economic distress. They will sue for peace after a week's battle.

D2) Nuclear war. With a partial war, this won't be triggered.

D3) Other countries. US/UK/China.
All the publicity in the western media means that they understand what we have gone thru. They cannot now turn against us and support Pakistan. China might but it’s not going to join in an overt battle. It will let Pakistan do the dirty work and supply it weapons.

D4) Economic loss. The economic loss of not acting is actually more that going for a partial war.

D5) The world will respect us for taking care of this menace called Pakistan. They are the world’s problem... not just ours. Pakis will not think of us as very predictable.


E) Now that we have explored the consequences of action/inaction, let explore the options we had selected above (B4 and B5)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E1) Both these political parties have shown in the past that they will choose the easier options when it comes to confronting Pakistan. So I don’t think one has any particular advantage over the other. So B4 and B5 by themselves are not real options. They would not be executed by either party... unless forced to.

E2) We the people! have a distinct advantage. The stars have aligned correctly this time. The US is busy with the transition. The world is on our side because of the news coverage. There are elections coming in India. Both parties will vie for our votes. What if we set up a contest? Whoever is more aggressive on security gets our support. But how would we influence their decision. We could start a petition where we demand that each party clearly specify their thresholds for Paki terror and exactly what action would be taken when each threshold is crossed. The best option at this stage is to put pressure on the congress because they will be desperate to retain power. And we need action NOW when the stars are aligned in our favor. Of course if the congress doesn’t deliver, we can vote for the BJP.

F) Why do we have to force this ... who are we fighting:
---------------------------------------------------------
F1) The Americans/British who want the Pakistanis to fight their war on terror... and want us to be just happy with superficial meeting/conferences. We can’t blame them. They are doing it in their best interest. We have to take care of ours.

F2) The US media. They are trying to project this as an internal/Kashmir issue precisely to fulfill their agenda mentioned in F1.

F3) The Indian media. The left wing/secular/communist media doesn’t want India to retaliate. They are traditionally left wing (hence Chinese ideological and possibly money influence). Recent media shops are MNC controlled (hence will promote western interests). So we the people, have very few friends in the media.

F4) The Pakis, of course. They have done their job. All that’s remaining is to somehow placate the Indians and avoid any retaliation (they are probably very confident of this since they have done this very effectively in the past).

F5) The Govt of India. They do not want to have to deal with this during this election season. They are hoping that we forget this like we usually do.

So we the people, who get affected by terror the most, are kind of on our own. But we are motivated...because we don't like being blindfolded in a minefield anymore.. do we? The advantage this time is that it’s relatively easy to sustain the focus on terror for the next 6 months. We are lazy, we know... but its only 6 months... and the rewards could be good. If we keep the issue alive by signing petitions, none of the above interested parties can keep it off limelight.


Only one problem with this whole plan. Doubt. We need to believe that this will happen... and then it will happen. If we have any doubts that this might be a far fetched thing, then it will fizzle out in 2 months. But what do we have to lose?? If we lose, we will have one more petition that goes into the dustbin. We will get one of the parties in the center and then life goes on until... The other option is ranting on this forum for a while and waiting for the next attack.

Please feel free to add/remove anything you would like. I believe this will work. The plan is to send weekly updates to both parties showing them the support the petition is receiving. And we can also try the media. If it succeeds even marginally, everyone will join. The goal is simple actually. To keep terror as the main item on every party's agenda. And making sure that this question gets asked by every media outlet. Don't think that's a difficult goal.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by milindc »

Fellow Rakshaks,

We need to organize rallies at all major cities to force the GoI to take action.
I stay in Hyderabad, let me know if someone from Hyd is interested in meeting at set location.
Lets send SMS, e-mails or call everyone we know...

something needs to be done.
samuel.chandra
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by samuel.chandra »

Milind and all other rakshak's, please review the following strategy as well.
New topic: MumbaiAttack:Playing the game the way politicians understand

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=1&t=4511

milindc wrote:Fellow Rakshaks,

We need to organize rallies at all major cities to force the GoI to take action.
I stay in Hyderabad, let me know if someone from Hyd is interested in meeting at set location.
Lets send SMS, e-mails or call everyone we know...

something needs to be done.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vipin_Upadhyay »

Swapan Dasgupta

The 60-hour terrorist assault on Mumbai evokes sharply conflicting emotions. There is the profound sense of loss at the senseless murder of men and women we knew, had even worked with; enormous relief that others we knew weren’t in the wrong place at the wrong time; grief at the deaths of those in uniform who didn’t flinch from doing their duty; and admiration for the real unsung heroes-the staff of the Taj and Oberoi hotels who went beyond the call of duty and saved innumerable hotel guests from certain death.

Unfortunately, the tears of sorrow, relief and pride are soon overwhelmed by a sense of blind fury directed at those who were responsible for the carnage and those whose callousness facilitated this devastating attack on India. To see Pakistan as the root of the problem is akin to saying that there is too much evil in this god-forsaken kaliyug. That there are “elements within Pakistan” (Manmohan Singh’s attempt at subtlety) committed to the destruction of India, its civilisation and its way of life is undeniable. But this has been true for more than 60 years and is likely to be true as long as long as the impulses that divided the country persist. It also comes as no surprise to learn that the ISI may well have facilitated the Mumbai attack. But hasn’t this been true for the past 30 years? Presenting a dossier to an ISI representative when he comes to Delhi to face the combined wrath of the Prime Minister and the Home Minister-a prospect that is about as terrifying as being savaged by a dead sheep-is a bit like confronting Dawood Ibrahim with evidence. What will fascinate Lt-Gen Ahmed Shujaa Pasha, who brushed off India’s summons with contempt, is not finding out how much India knows but gauging just how much we don't know.

Making Pakistan the focus of our post-Mumbai recriminations is a juicy distraction which begs the question that Manmohan Singh and Shivraj Patil don't want to answer: What have we as a nation done to protect ourselves against this menace? The answer, regrettably, is: Precious little. It is enthralling to know, for example, that our intelligence agencies have taken less than 48 hours to discover that the attack was preceded by six months or so of meticulous planning. On TV, with characteristic aplomb, Kapil Sibal even told the country that the operational centre of the terrorists was two rooms in the Taj and Oberoi which, presumably, doubled up as an ammunition dump. What a shame that this information was not known and acted on a few days earlier. What a shame that the NSG and marine commandos who had to be summoned to flush out the terrorists weren't even provided elementary logistical support in the form of maps and local guidance. What a shame that the entire top brass of the Mumbai ATS was wiped out because it was led to believe that the carnage in Leopold Café was a burst of gangland madness. A little prior knowledge and the lives of 200 people, including 17 men in uniform, may have been saved.

In ‘cracking’ the case in three days and collecting ‘clinching’ evidence in record time, the Intelligence establishment and the Government can’t escape responsibility for their own failings. What happened in Mumbai over the past three days wasn’t India’s first encounter with terror. India isn't some Switzerland where the police are preoccupied only with financial crime, illegal immigration and speeding offences. That India is a constant target and Mumbai a prime target were common knowledge. That we were caught so horribly unprepared suggests that our security preparedness is non-existent. This, in turn, implies that our agencies are either inept or focussed on forecasting polls and rounding up the usual suspects.

It's distressing to face the truth. But whether we like it or not the LeT's successful fidayeen attack on Mumbai is the best recruitment messages for hordes of impressionable Muslim youth. You can almost hear the lunatic from the pulpit boasting that if 10 mujahjdeen could keep the Indian State at bay for 60 hours, imagine what a thousand could do. After Mumbai, jihadis will not recoil in horror at the devastation their colleagues have done; they will intensify their campaign and engage in competitive bravado. The prospects for the future are horrifying. The ineptitude of our internal security apparatus has been exposed before the whole world. We can either act or decide that we are incapable of performing any better. In which case sheer self-preservation demands we outsource the job of R&AW and IB to Mossad or MI6 or CIA-depending on our preferences. It is preferable to being mowed down by bullets the next time we go to a mall or an Italian restaurant. Our soldiers are good, very good, but fighting terrorists in Mumbai is not their core competence.

All politicians, the English language TV channels tell us whenever the Congress is slightly beleaguered, are the real problem. Since we can't and shouldn't be governed by either the military or the police, this is a problem we have to fix. Cynicism is healthy but an overdose is counter-productive. Manmohan Singh and his Government have bungled and bungled grievously. The Congress and particularly the haughty woman who inflicted Shivraj Patil on India, must be punished. Yet we will need an alternative that is committed to India winning the war on two fronts-against terror and against economic mismanagement. It can be a meaningful alternative if its sheds the cupboard full of crazy home remedies and expired medicine that it has accumulated over the years. Mumbai has rung out the Manmohan Government; it is in all our interest to ring in a new but effective dispensation. The friends of India are watching but so are the enemies of India.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/137939/Mumb ... -Govt.html
Vivek Sreenivasan
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vivek Sreenivasan »

What can individual Brfites who live in India do? A couple of things, firstly they should lobby/send letters/communicate with officials to ensure that adequate action is taken. Basically they can form a pressure group on national and internal security.

Secondly they should arm themselves. A simple 6 shot revolver locked away in the glove box of your car is sufficient. India is a dangerous place, citizens shoud be armed. Nothing fancy is required. A simple revolver like the one below is sufficient.

Click on Link.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/Sm ... _large.jpg

sry link is working now.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by VikramS »

Some comments:

1. The three Mumbai police top-cops were killed in a single ambush, shot from the windows while they were inside the vehicle. They fell to head and neck wounds. Most probably they did not even know they were in an ambush till the last seconds and had no chance to defend themselves.

2. It is very hard to engage with a terrorist throwing hand grenades. You can not get a direct shot since all the scum needs to do is to lob a grenade against you.

3. Within the Taj the problem was the hand-grenades again. They limited what the responding forces could do since chasing them was not an option. The Taj has strong brick/stone walls and the impact of the blast would be magnified; anyone caught in the blast zone would have a tough time.

4. In urban warfare, with hostage situations, unmanned remote controlled vehicles seem the best option. If the NSG had vehicles which could have fired tranquilizer darts, the pigs would have been captured alive. When responding with grenades the forces knew that any chance of getting the hostages alive was gone.

5. The NSG seem to have followed a strategy to wear the terrorists out which seems to have worked. Unfortunately with the eyes of the world fixed on Mumbai and with hostages, perhaps more aggressive action may have been warranted especially when it was clear that the pigs would not let go of any hostages alive. Specifically, there was little or no outside interdiction of the terrorists at the Taj. Perhaps blowing up an external wall or two might have created the few seconds of distraction needed to take them out. But again perhaps Taj's stone construction did not allow them that kind of luxury; a modern building with beam based construction might have been more amenable to that. Thankfully the number of casualties suffered by the NSG was very low given the challenge the faced.

6. Hopefully this will result in a complete revamp of the internal security apparatus. Police reforms are desperately needed; right now the police force has been reduced to the local politician's chowkidar.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vipin_Upadhyay »

As Mr. Dasgupta said in above article, Shivraj Patil is an injury inflicted upon India by Sonia.
The real responsibility lies in her hand. She continues to maintain a vice like grip on India's ruling party, single handedly deciding each and every appointment starting from Prime Minister till President.

One billion Indians cannot be forced to become impotent and held hostage by one lady simply because she belongs to a dynasty.

She has preempted media by awardind greedy idiots like Rajdeep and Barkha with Padmashree.

Question I ask is, among hundreds of millionaires in India, is there not a single patriot who has vision enough to buy at least one freakin TV media to present unbiased views of billions of Indians sufferring from Barkha and their ilks?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Anabhaya »

the way things are unfolding in dilli may this humble subject request a admin firman for a new dhaga to detail and document dilli's response to his particular eventuality?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by pran »

The real responsibility lies in her hand. She continues to maintain a vice like grip on India's ruling party, single handedly deciding each and every appointment starting from Prime Minister till President.

I don't think that is the case, Kangress is now full of two-time crooks and sycophants who have no trust or honor among themselves, and only a videshi can keep them separate tied to a common agenda as revealed by her leadership. The only direction these kangress politicians understand without the guiding hand is self preservation. Without her they will be at each other's throats the next minute.

Swapan Dasgupta has nailed it in one sentence.

Incompetents at the helm is the order of the day.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by kit »

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/world ... ml?_r=1&hp

Attacks Imperil Delicate U.S. Role Between Rivals

India should not go for a conventional war with Pakistan Why not a full scale proxy war and targeted assassinations inside Pakistan.Putting India's home in order is one of the better things to do.At the same time escalate intelligence activities inside Pakistan... put pressure on them from inside.. tit for tat ... costs less and more effective.

At the same time revamp both the military capabilities including a second strike nuke capability against china .. who could be the dark horse in the mumbai terrorist acts given its deep connections inside Pakistan.

Response of Indian Govt can be something like
1.Revamp all the intelligence agancies into one external and one internal agency with input from spy sats and ELINT directly.One single federal directorate for all internal and counter intelligence activities with superseding and arching powers over state governments in a crisis situation.All spg, nsg etc should be under this organisation.

2.Enhance the nuclear second strike capability pronto with complete EW and surveillance over the entire Indian airspace.Beef up the coast guard to cover the Indian coast line 24*7

3.A national consensus to be taken up and enacted in case an attack happens again , it will !

4.Control the media .. have a media center with the terrorist task force specifically for the media .. all outputs to the nations channels to be screened and put through.

5.Revamp the police organisations in all states including arms and armour to combat the latest known terrorist weapons.

6.Lots of moles and sympathisers seem to be inside India.. identify them among the politicians, businessmen,police,military and journalists and keep track of them.

7.If India doesnt learn and act the next one could as well be a nuke in the heart of delhi !
Last edited by kit on 30 Nov 2008 13:02, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by pushkar.bhat »

I want to ask a couple of quick questions on this forum? Inputs and replies are welcome.

The questions are
1. "Should India Invoke its rights under Article 51 of the UN Charter?" [/b]
2. What is the best way of delivering the evidence of the Pak hand in the terror plot? (This is a multiple choice question) and the options are:
A. Through the diplomatic bag
B. Send them piggyback on a couple of missile strikes
C. Served in the good old way - send the stuff with the Heads of a couple of Non-State actors (Pun intended)



{Please don't use bold-face as your default typing style in future. thanks!}
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikramaditya »

Vivek Sreenivasan wrote:Anabhaya from what i understand the intelligence was too general in nature and not specific enough. Also when did domestic intelligence fail. Is it that easy for LeT operatives to enter India to suss out targets before strike?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/1 ... index.html
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by SandeepA »

With news that Versace girlie-piglet is singing like a canary after seeing the mutilated body of his colleague one thing is clear, these guys will pee in their pants when they realise they can suffer the same fate as their kafir victims. Look at it this way, they have been brainwashed that kafirs are sub-human and there is no need for pity for their plight, and that their own death is beautiful with 72 houris in wait etc etc. So the entire operation is just like a video-game where u just kill kill n kill without feeling any pain urself and with the hope the next level has some pleasure points added. The moment you are given a dose of reality with a gory pic of your comrade things sink in and the cheap Karachi Versace trouser gets damp.
chakkunny
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by chakkunny »

Apologies in advance for this macabre posting...

This is something I proposed the last time such an event occurred in Mumbai when multiple trains were bmbed and over 200 died. I had then called for a targeted bombing cum assasination campaign carried by a covert agency. Targets need to include those inhabitants of Pakistan who have made their calling in life to do violence on Indians. It does not matter if they are members in uniform or mullahs in Murdike. Scum who .preach murder, fund murder and aid and commit murder of Indians must pay.

We fund approx. 30B$ on defense annually. Yet the utility of that hardware if ZERO. Why? - because hell will freeze over before Pujniya Indira Gandhi has a rebirth as a man. Every paisa that is paid out to arms corporations the world over is money that we could have used to address any of the zillion development related issues that our country faces. Yet we spent that money to prepare for war - a war that this nation has no stomach to fight. How about we take a fraction - a very teeeny fraction to show the scum how its really done?

What will it cost to wage an effective campaign:
1. Men who will take the enormous risks involved.
2. Scientific and technical talent to equip those men with the means for covert infiltration/exfiltration,
3. Loads of money - to exercise the same weaknesses that the scum to use to overcome our safety nets - our criminal networks, ur corrupted officials etc, as well to amply compensate those brave among us who are prepared to go into that foul lair.

Foregoing 2 MKIs a year will net us 300 Crores. Can I get 30 big explosions a year in Pukistan? What if we allocated 3000 Crores? Can I get one almost every day?

Seriously, all throughout my life, ever since I can remember, I have watched these scum come over and murder. I no longer care about how efficient our security is? Or how responsive our NSG units can be? If after an incident like this, if all we can talk about how we can best defend ourselves, or how we should invest in better intelligence to prevent whole sale slaughter, then there is something wrong with us. We can sit all night and blame our politicians, blame our lack of readiness, blame the media, blame the US and blame every single WCKs out there. Or

To quote from Denzel Washington's Man on Fire:

I'm gonna kill 'em. Anyone that was involved. Anybody who profited from it. Anybody who opens their eyes at me.

What are we doing to carry the fight over to them? Until that question is answered, I don't even care to entertain what we could have done better to prevent this.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by bart »

gandharva wrote:I can't believe this.
On Saturday, the Congress issued a full-page advertisement in its favourite newspaper, listing the various terrorist strikes during the NDA years, casually mentioning the fidayeen attacks in Mumbai, saluting the security personnel killed in these incidents, and then preachily declaring that terrorism is a “national issue, not a political game”.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/137775/‘Sho ... ecord.html

NDA is no better. The coverage of India TV throughout the crisis had frequent ad breaks and during each one of them playing a higly inflamatory (for the circumstances) election ad from Rajasthan. It might have been prepared earlier for a different purpose, but it clearly should not have aired during a national crisis.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by vasu_ray »

few pointers on internal security:

Identify most spots that need protection from transport hubs to industries to traffic junctions to religious locations all over India, say they come to 10,000 spots

Categorize them into 3, primary based on their importance, places infested with extremist violence
secondary as in travel and other public places, tertiary for the rest

place teams of 2 to 8 fully armed, kevlar protected SENTINEL security force working 4 six hour shifts, each team averaging at 4 men and that works out to, 4*6*4*10,000 = 1 million strong, outside the shift they will be in training

they are drawn from all security branches (civil police, CISF, CRPF, RAF, RPF what not!) not just military, training has to be common for this force, they get rotated every 3 months of deputation from their original organization

the federated command and communication structure is different from cell phones and police radio, and should be backed up say "quad redundant" reporting to NSA

since language can be a barrier and 10th class is minimum education expected, use codes for each situation, hostage - 101; explosions - 102; mob violence - 103; riots - 104, you get the picture

this sentinel force has the responsibility of helping local police and other dedicated agencies as needed and to boost the confidence of the public

Until police agencies gear up both in equipment, intelligence, training and responsibility, this becomes 911 response force for high threat calls

once they escalate any threat, fully dedicated anti threat personnel (NSG, MARCOS etc) can be pressed into service

Conclusion:
In a few years we will have a trained security force that can operate together even if having different labels, and we will be left with fewer soft spots for the terrorists to target. There will be no more lathi weilding pandus or .303 rifles
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by pran »

http://www.dailypioneer.com/137747/Will ... nged-.html
Will this be avenged ?

Manmohan Singh promises to inflict ‘costs’ upon Pakistan. But diplomatic obfuscation, writes G Parthasarathy, has already let Islamabad off the hook. And politics has defanged India’s capacity to undertake covert, ‘seek and destroy’ ops across the border
"Promises!!!" Shooting thru the pie holes again... shabash!!!

Last time he lost sleep when a terrorist accomplice was arrested in Australia on terrorism charges.

Talking to Pakistan sends the wrong signal, start hurting them. No mercy to Pakistanis.No mercy.
The strategy to raise “costs” for Pakistan can hardly be successful by mere diplomatic obfuscation. An iron will and measures other than diplomatic are also required, including targeted strikes at Lashkar centres and leadership if the Prime Minister’s stated objective is to be achieved and not frustrated by Pakistani stalling and doublespeak.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by kmkraoind »

The motives of terrorists or their mentors,
1. To create 9/11 of India (which is the main motive) = objective has failed.
1. Killing as much as people (probably 5,000) = objective has failed.
2. Bring down Taj hotel’s dome = objective has failed.
3. Hurt business sentiment and business infrastructure – uncertain, seems to be succeeded to some extent.

Even in first attempt they failed to blow WTC, but the second time they succeeded.

If there may be a sinister vengeance to achieve the failed objectives, then still there is a solution, which scares me, is exploding a smuggled nuke (if even a dirty bomb) by these terrorists.

The options lie with India.
1. Instigate a conflict (probably take help of US and Israel) and conduct preemptive strikes, and commando operations and destroy all nuclear bombs of Pak. If possible balkanize the Porkisan, before it responds. In that processes, we may be alienated in world community for a limited time.
2. Let continue our current fiasco (political unwillingness, intelligence failures, handling of crises by police and other security agencies ) and give the chance b@st@rds to explode a bomb to complete their unfulfilled objectives.

In short,
1. Instigate disintegrate Pork or denuclearize, and take a little punishment in world forums.
2. Let the apathy and status quo continue with dreadful consequences, which will be much dreadful than what we have faced in last 1400 years.

The situation makes me feel helpless, hopeless and scary.
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Re: MumbaiAttack:Playing the game the way politicians understand

Post by shiv »

Indian politicians are afraid of Pakistan. They are afraid of hitting back. I will post a list of reasons why they are afraid
  • The peace process with Pakistan will get upset
  • We are a poor country. Farmers are committing suicide
  • The US will put trade sanctions on us
  • There will be an oil embargo on us
  • Islamic nations will feel bad that we are fightting an Islamic country
  • We must not do anything that will make our Muslims brothers think taht we are anti Islamic
  • India is a nation of 1 biion. You know there ar emore than 200 deaths a day by murders in India. Terrorism is nothing
  • We must think of China
What i would like to see is an instant reaction in which Karachi oil terminals are set on fire of a Paki ship sunk - or a PGM on Dawood's mansion in Karachi each time there is an atrocity - even if the atrocity is committed by Hindu converts to Buddhism.

I would like us to ready ourselves for nuclear war and promise o give back to Pakisatan twice as much as we take.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by pushkar.bhat »

Just posted my thoughts on my blog site. the link is http://pushkarbhat.com/blogs/2008/11/we-are-angry-indians-want-answers-and-actions/ Comments are welcome.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by bart »

One thing I noticed in Israel was that most of the hotel security and the security for business complexes etc were ex-army types (in a sense pretty much everybody in Israel is an ex-army type but these were experienced people not some teenagers just out of training) and they invariably had at least an automatic pistol (sometimes an Uzi) and also radio equipment.

I think its high time our security was also similarly upgraded.

Definitely as the highest priority, our Police needs to be given modern weapons AND trained how to use them. Our cities are our new warfront, and these are also our strike troops in a sense, not just the Jawans in barracks near the border. They need to have latest weapons.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by mnavnith »

Shivraj Patil gives his resignation

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7757122.stm

too little too late atleast accept it and throw him with the next chandrayan mission to the moon
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Anabhaya »

Vikramaditya wrote:
Vivek Sreenivasan wrote:Anabhaya from what i understand the intelligence was too general in nature and not specific enough. Also when did domestic intelligence fail. Is it that easy for LeT operatives to enter India to suss out targets before strike?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/1 ... index.html
Thanks mate. This bogey of intel failure needs to be shot down. This time we have had clear warnings but it appears like the entire guvarmand machinery was focused on state assembly polls or something. The responsibility lies with the political leadership. The intel guys have delivered.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by mnavnith »

Anabhaya wrote:This time we have had clear warnings but it appears like the entire guvarmand machinery was focused on state assembly polls or something.
very true but the thing i find pathetic is the childish fights by the prime minister and the ruling party with regards to any points made by the opposition. no professionalism even on tv. this country has been taken for a jolly ride
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by RajeshA »

We are shooting ourselves in the foot, when we differentiate between 'some elements in Pakistan' and 'Pakistan State'. We should always say (at the minimum, diluted, in the cowardly mode, in the least brave mode) that 'some elements in the Pakistani State apparatus, which support terrorist groups and Taliban factions active in Afghanistan' are responsible for Mumbai Attacks. Secondly we should state that these elements are the true power brokers in Pakistan, and the democracy there is just the glasses of Superman to fool others (sorry comparing evil to a hero, albeit fictitious, here). In the brave modus, of course, we would be talking less anyway and not making any distinction.

Having said that, it is an easy matter to make the connection, that just as the Pakistani State allowed the Pakistani Navy to train these 'commandos' for an attack over the sea, and made the necessary resources available to them, similarly Pakistan would have no compunction in making even nuclear materials available to motivated Jihadis, to attack anywhere, which suits its interests and tactics, which includes persuading other countries through blackmail. A dirty bomb is very much a possibility, and even though the chances are high, that it would be primarily used against India and Western interests and nationals in India, in order to make India look unstable, it is also possible, that Pakistan would allow directly or indirectly nuclear materials to come into the hands of those, who want to attack Western countries directly. The readiness and audacity within these elements to go a notch higher in the terrorism ladder is increasing fast.

So Pakistan needs to be jointly and verifiably denuked. That is the message that India should put out (in the non-brave modus).
Last edited by RajeshA on 30 Nov 2008 16:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Raj Malhotra »

No defensive response will succeed in long term, we need to retaliate. A caliberated limited reponse would be to sink couple of Pak Navy ships
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by viveks »

Raj Malhotra wrote: No defensive response will succeed in long term, we need to retaliate. A caliberated limited reponse would be to sink couple of Pak Navy ships
I am an idiot! I would wonder how Indira Gandhi & Sam Manicshaw would handle this situation. The current establishment seems to be resigning from their current responsibilities. Again a sign of weakness and softy-giri.

Babuji jaage hain...bolte hain ki humse yain kaam nahi hoga.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
God bless the motherland.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Nesoj »

We really need to use water as our weapon - non-violet, economically very painfull

Declare as an official policy - '1 days water stoppage from our rivers for every Indian Killed'

Stop water whenever there is such an attack. Dry out Pukistan
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by RajeshA »

There are so many groups and interests who want to do harm to India, starting from the many in Pakistan, Bangladesh to PLA, to mafia and organized crime.

India's response would be under intense scrutiny to see, how far India can be pushed. If India does not draw a line in the sand and start pushing back, others would keep on pushing India towards the cliff and beyond, every time a little bit more. The best course of action is to go on the offense and increase the strategic costs for the true perpetrators.

911 happened and USA started two wars. Mumbai Attacks should not lead to a dud commission of inquiry.

We need to hit back forcefully. That is the only thing, that can save us from future terrorist attacks.

First course of action, is to stop all contacts and communications with Pakistan, and then ....
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Philip »

Let's put the entire issue of Indo-Pak relations in a condensed perspective and the way forward for India.

At the time of Independence,the military leadership in both countries consisted of "officers and gentlemen",well steeped in the old British traditons.Gen.Manekshaw in '71 uttered thse fanous words to his opposite pal,"the game is up..",illustrating this ethos.The izzat of a military man was paramount and to a large extent, the top Pak military leadership displayed this,barring those responsible for the horrible excesses in East Pak.

With the advent of Gen.Zia,who made full use of the Afghan War during the Soviet intervention and the support and sponsorship of Islamic fundamentalism by the US,West,Saudis and Pak,the Paki military establishment,especially the army was indoctrinated in Islamic fundamentalism.The earlier animosity toward India was now replaced by bitter hatred .Zia began a global agenda of his own and covertly used funds for the war to devlop Pak's nuclear and missile arsenal with China's joyous support.He was removed from the scene for this reason by the CIA,according to certain sources.The civilian regimes of Benazir and Sharif were full of sound and fury signifying little and were after the right period of incompetence,swiftly removed from the scene by the military.The ISI under Zia was now the core of the military establishment and the paki military continued to expand the proxy war started by Zia,aiding Khalistanis and Kashmiris,to an even higher level,spreading the chaos using Nepal and Bangladesh as routes into India.

ABV's attempt to bring about peace between the two nations through his historic bus diplomacy was embraced by Sharif.However,Gen.Musharrat sabotaged that through Kargil.About to be sacked for the Kargil defeat,he removed Sharif through a coup.9/11 saved him as Pak did an astonishing about turn,ostensibly ditching its child the Taliban,and appeared to be on the side of the angels.Musharrat was resurrected as a great Islamic hero ,the "Great White Hope".He tried to steal at the negotiating table what he lost on the battlefield.His awful rule finally proved too much for the ordinary people of Pak who surprisingly revolted against him in massive public demos.Forced to hold elections by the US and give up his military cap,Pres.Musharrat presided over Benazir's assassination,covering up all evdience of the plot.He was finally forced to hold elections which saw the victory of Zardari and the PPP.

Zardari is under orders from the US through the US ambassador,in similar manner as MMSingh takes his cue from Bush,out of "love"!The US wants "peace " between India and Pak,so that the armed froces of both countries can be used by it in the US's global military adventurim apart from providing huge contracts for US defence companies."Make money out of both nation's misery",is the mantra.However,until now,relations did improve and there was a large reduction in tension on the borders and in J&K after the border was opened.But this does not serve the purpose of the Paki military/ISI,two sides of the same coin.Therefore ,the sabotage of any peace between India and Pak under the Zardari regime had to be accomplished by a major terrorist attack,where the leads would be clearly left that the terror originated from pak,forcing the GOI of MMS to respond in knee-jerk fashion,thanks to national outrage.The mastermind of this act,shows that only a mind of a "commando" like Musharrat could've come up with this ********.He has put into his old seat his OWN choice as successor,Gen.Kill-any,"the vulture".There is simply NO way that the Paki military establishment could not know in advance of such a meticulously detailed plan,reportedly started over a year ago and where the Pak navy has also been training 500+ jehadists in underwater warfare including laying mines!

Let's not deceive ourselves,this proxy war has just entered a new more diabolic phase.More attacks are to come.
First,where are the other paki terrorists who came to Bombay? Who are the local conspirators and collaborators? We are now told that our intel agencies,R&AW the IB had just recently warned the Maharashtra Govt. and the IN (Adm.Mehta must be asked about whether this was true and what he did in response to the warning(It is similar to the warnings ignored by the USN at Pearl Harbour!).Just last Sunnday,in a boat on the Bombay waterfront,I was astonished as to the absence of any extra protective security for the Viraat and the Gateway/Colaba area by smaller naval craft/CG ,as the whole area appeared so vulnerable from the sea through suicide attacks at naval vessels like that on the USS Cole.If the CNS is found wanting,then one is afraid that he must also resign.

The LTTE were the founders of the IED system of assymetric warfare,where both the SL armed froces and the IPKF suffered grievous losses.Mining is the cheapest and most effective method of maritime assymetric warfare.The Iranians used in in the Gulf,where hilariously,warships protecting the tankers followed in the wake of the tankers,as the
larger tankers were able to ride out the mine balsts.Pak plans to mine all the major Indian naval bases and cause massive damage to our ports and naval facilities,whereby the counrye's exports will suffer a devastating blow.What they have carried out on the west coast can similarly be done on the east coast and our ncuelar centres at Trombay,Kalpakkam,etc.,will be at enormous risk.

We have to respond with some kind of military action.What shape it should take is a matter for vigorous debate in this thread.The masterminds should be exterminated.In addition,the Paki Navy should suffer grievously.Perhaps another thread/post later on,can list out out options on all fronts.

However,the resignations/sackings of pathetic and paltry pygmies of the party,etc.,are mere "tokenism" as Prabhu Chawla has said.These men are mere scapegoats.The major blame should be correctly placed right at the top.Chidambaram a total failure with the economy will prove to be another failure at Home.His joyous grinning right now at his promotion is totally out of keeping with the gravity of this tragic situation! "Mike",our NSAdvisor,described as "Normally Sitting Abroad",due to his hundred+ overseas jaunts while totally neglecting internal security,has been another sick joke.The "New Broom" has to sweep clean and clear out into the dustbin the ntire lot of leaders of this farcial govt.

The buck stops with MMSingh and Sonia Gandhi.We need a new "Freedom Struggle" at this extraordinary time of crisis.The slogan is "ManMohan Singh-Quit,Sonia-Quit India!"

PS:Our response to Pak can be either covert or open warfare,or even both.I suggest that the Paki navy which is equally responsibly should also be made to suffer through its total destruction.Ideas for accomplishing this very welcome.
Last edited by Philip on 30 Nov 2008 17:34, edited 1 time in total.
shyamd
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by shyamd »

Rahul M wrote:
I have said it once before, will say it again. It needs to be covert ops. Beirut style raid needed in Karachi, take care of this LeT commander and bring him to justice or deliver justice.
shyamd, pakistan is not lebanon. in spite of appearances to the contrary, israel has things easier than India ever will.
I didn't mean it in terms of the 2006 clash. I meant the 1973 raid.

It is more than possible, not very easy, but possible. The Balochi coast (usually between oman and Balochi coast) for example is heavily used for people trafficing on a regular basis.

Agree that Israel has things easier.
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