Indian Response to Terrorism

NRao
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby NRao » 30 Nov 2008 21:30

brihaspati wrote:For the presence of foreign moles around the PM's of India - look at the top heading :
[url]http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/e7txt/50163.htm
[/url] There is a pdf image of the actual memo somewhere!


So what else is new? Play the game. Use the largest middle class to make a statement - instead of outsourcing it to someone else. TODAY India is good enough to take on any challenge - exception: politicians, the one breed that shoots India in its foot.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Muppalla » 30 Nov 2008 21:33

I do not think even if politicians are not involved, India will be able to go full scale war with Pakistan. It has to start where LKA left last time. With no weak knees they should get their pound of flesh by getting extradited the 20 names that they insisted in 2002-2003. This time they have to be successful. Get the chiefs of JeM and LeT along with Dawood.

Threaten them with missile attacks in case of non-delivery of the 20 scum and put a deadline. After the deadline send couple fo brahmos to where these scum. however, the world will ensure 20 deliveries before the missiles reach there. For the world 20 deliveries are expendable as compared to dismemberment of TSP.

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Re: MumbaiAttack:Playing the game the way politicians understand

Postby samuel.chandra » 30 Nov 2008 21:35

Well, the indian IT companies should understand that an erosion of confidence is much worse. Pretty much every country has had terror attacks. If we don't respond firmly, businesses in India stand to lose more because of a general lack of confidence in security.

Acharya wrote:
shiv wrote:Indian politicians are afraid of Pakistan. They are afraid of hitting back. I will post a list of reasons why they are afraid
  • The peace process with Pakistan will get upset
  • We are a poor country. Farmers are committing suicide
  • The US will put trade sanctions on us
  • There will be an oil embargo on us
  • Islamic nations will feel bad that we are fightting an Islamic country
  • We must not do anything that will make our Muslims brothers think taht we are anti Islamic
  • India is a nation of 1 biion. You know there ar emore than 200 deaths a day by murders in India. Terrorism is nothing
  • We must think of China

What i would like to see is an instant reaction in which Karachi oil terminals are set on fire of a Paki ship sunk - or a PGM on Dawood's mansion in Karachi each time there is an atrocity - even if the atrocity is committed by Hindu converts to Buddhism.

I would like us to ready ourselves for nuclear war and promise o give back to Pakisatan twice as much as we take.


You have missed the most important point

Indian IT companies do not want war since their revenue will fall down. They will call upthe govt and ask them not to start a war.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby milindc » 30 Nov 2008 21:37

Nesoj wrote:A lot is being ranted here about a fitting military response, but just for a moment is it practcal ?

A full scale operation requires months of planning and deployement - is our army ready ?
................
India should make a list of demands (list of terrorists heads etc) to Pakistan with a time frame, in the event of them not complying (say within 7 days)
1) immediately enforce a maritime blockade and mine the entry to all their ports.
2) somehow find ways to divert the flow of water away from Pakistan (maybe using some controlled nuclear detotations for 'peaceful' purposes. Pakistan is an Agrarian society similar to ours, water is their lifeline
3) cut of all underwater cables crippling their telecom network.

Nesoj,
Your first two options might immediately escalate to a full scale war. So we are back to 'full scale operation requires months of planning and deployement - is our army ready ?'
Even the Pakis are in same position as well...
The question we as Indians need to ask ourselves is - whether we are ready for full scale war with risk of nuke exchange.
As Shiv wished, it could have been fitting response from upcoming power if the Karachi harbor was on fire, the moment attack started.
Last edited by milindc on 30 Nov 2008 21:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby ManuT » 30 Nov 2008 21:38

It is time to start crafting the stick with which India will fight this monster of terror.

Among other things, to be included are fellow Indian Muslims. It is time for the Indian nephews to start paying visits to his Uncle's in Pakistan.

Also, prepare Mukti-II.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby SaiK » 30 Nov 2008 21:38

Is India intelligent enough to ask protect their MNC companies in India (supposedly a type of partner), and ask them to fish out the terrorists in pakistan for us? If it was Israel, partner, would have done this job long time.

Get America to act now, and ask the pakis to get every possible terrorists for trials.. go on active hunt in pakistan.. if pakistan itself says, they are helpless.

Get America do this act fast.. time is running out for them, as well.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby samuel.chandra » 30 Nov 2008 21:40

That is exactly what we need. The first deadline should not exceed 2-3 days because they are not going to deliver anyone anyway. After the first batch of missiles(with a threat of cold-start in case of a response), things will move. I suggest a Naval blockade as well because we need to squeeze them economically as well.

Muppalla wrote:I do not think even if politicians are not involved, India will be able to go full scale war with Pakistan. It has to start where LKA left last time. With no weak knees they should get their pound of flesh by getting extradited the 20 names that they insisted in 2002-2003. This time they have to be successful. Get the chiefs of JeM and LeT along with Dawood.

Threaten them with missile attacks in case of non-delivery of the 20 scum and put a deadline. After the deadline send couple fo brahmos to where these scum. however, the world will ensure 20 deliveries before the missiles reach there. For the world 20 deliveries are expendable as compared to dismemberment of TSP.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby harik » 30 Nov 2008 21:41

Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan's father throws out Kerala's entourage out of his house.

Should it wake up us all ?

Kudos to StarTV Hindi channel, only one to show it , while NDTV of Pranoy Roy channel
nee Vishnu Shom's office started politics (abt Modi) while Mr Hemant Karakre's body was still lying on his pire & uses his son's body in every frame till date.. while saying no more politics

Shame Shame..

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby shyamd » 30 Nov 2008 21:42

Maybe an economist will be able to answer better. My understanding is Paki's are broke. So, any war would mean their economy will collapse even more and will have to survive off even more handouts from GCC to fly their planes and maintain their defences, if paki govt/economy collapses then, will we have a bigger situation to deal with?

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby samuel.chandra » 30 Nov 2008 21:45

If the paki govt/economy collapses, they will not be able to run coordinated attacks like mumbai. Thats the best case scenario. As a bonus, that would be followed by immediate split of TSP.

shyamd wrote:Maybe an economist will be able to answer better. My understanding is Paki's are broke. So, any war would mean their economy will collapse even more and will have to survive off even more handouts from GCC to fly their planes and maintain their defences, if paki govt/economy collapses then, will we have a bigger situation to deal with?

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Dilbu » 30 Nov 2008 21:46

harik wrote:Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan's father throws out Kerala's entourage out of his house.

Should it wake up us all ?

Kudos to StarTV Hindi channel, only one to show it , while NDTV of Pranoy Roy channel
nee Vishnu Shom's office started politics (abt Modi) while Mr Hemant Karakre's body was still lying on his pire & uses his son's body in every frame till date.. while saying no more politics

Shame Shame..

My salutes to the brave father.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby NRao » 30 Nov 2008 21:46

shyamd wrote:Maybe an economist will be able to answer better. My understanding is Paki's are broke. So, any war would mean their economy will collapse even more and will have to survive off even more handouts from GCC to fly their planes and maintain their defences, if paki govt/economy collapses then, will we have a bigger situation to deal with?


Two Uncles can fund them.

War is not an option and should not be.

This is a great opportunity to get ISI under civilian control. I would not be surprised at all IF the US is making all this noise just to ensure that is what happens. I feel that the target is not LeT or even AQ right now. The emphasis world wide is to take out ISI.

To counter that the Pakis are bound to say this is an internal problem to India. This arg is NOT an GoP strategy, it is a ISI strat.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby NRao » 30 Nov 2008 21:47

If the paki govt/economy collapses, they will not be able to run coordinated attacks like mumbai. Thats the best case scenario. As a bonus, that would be followed by immediate split of TSP.


They will need to make a sale of a few more tons of drugs to fund anything like this.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby harik » 30 Nov 2008 21:50

Dilbu wrote:
harik wrote:Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan's father throws out Kerala's entourage out of his house.

Should it wake up us all ?

Kudos to StarTV Hindi channel, only one to show it , while NDTV of Pranoy Roy channel
nee Vishnu Shom's office started politics (abt Modi) while Mr Hemant Karakre's body was still lying on his pire & uses his son's body in every frame till date.. while saying no more politics

Shame Shame..

My salutes to the brave father.


Let me assure You his father wasnt looking for such comments , it goes beyond..
not that I am denigrating , but can I

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby khan » 30 Nov 2008 21:54

I think our best option is to invade them with the limited goal of taking their Nuclear toys away from them and then start negotiating with them about handing over terrorists and so on.

It will be expensive and difficult and there is no guarantee of success, but I think the only other alternative is waiting for the next attack.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Kanson » 30 Nov 2008 21:56

As per Navy official, terrorists carried assalt rifles, pistols, hand grenades, stun grenades. What good pistol armed ATS team could do against such situation, and whatever quick reaction it could be ?

At present only NSG/Commandos are equipped to face such situation. At this juncture, dont criticize those gentlemen in unifrom.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Dilbu » 30 Nov 2008 21:58

Kanson wrote:As per Navy official, terrorists carried assalt rifles, pistols, hand grenades, stun grenades. What good pistol armed ATS team could do against such situation, and whatever quick reaction it could be ?

At present only NSG/Commandos are equipped to face such situation. At this juncture, dont criticize those gentlemen in unifrom.

ATS would not have had full grasp of the situation and probably thought it was underworld gang war. The guys responded swiftly with whatever weapons they had. No one at BR is criticising any of them.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby brihaspati » 30 Nov 2008 22:03

I would just like to say that we have to carefully distinguish between "Muslims" and "Islam" even in the context of Pakistan and the subcontinental response to terror. Please, all who are angry at Muslims, just try to remember that almost all Muslims on the subcontinent were either (1) converted under life/death choice (2) converted under extremely harsh and punitive taxation regimes at least running from the Khilijis and even maintaned under the "enlightened" Sher Shah and the Mughals (3) converted after enslavement or as precondition for manumission from slavery (4) born to captured or enslaved non-Muslim women and raised as Muslims - almost inevitably they are all descended from Indian non-Muslim mothers whom we could not defend from rape or slavery or abduction. Yes they have been brainwashed for centuries - but still they share our genes, and we should also share the guilt for not being able to protect their ancestors from Jihad.

But this on the other hand should not be taken as an excuse to drop the charge of Islam itself as an ideology sponsoring terror as a central part of its thesis - that would be blatant lying and whitewashing, more dangerous because it will continue to spread its message among its generations while non-Muslims are lulled into a soporific myth of "peaceful Islam misinterpreted by individuals". If any person should be the targets, it has to be the theologians of Islam and the educational/religious institutions controlled by them. I know, from personal interaction that the ground picture and reality of Islamic teachings and what the common Muslim believes as expected from them by Islam is highly confused except clarity about the importance of maintaining differences from non-Muslims and obeying their theologians, with a tacit acceptance of Jihad as "Allah enjoined" and cannot be actively opposed even if painful and shameful for people with whom their friendship comes under extreme stress and self-conflict of the contradiction of their persoanl feelings and their religious training.

There has to be this dual and extremely delicate handling of the entire Islam-Pakistan terror problem on the subcontinent. Its the leadership and ideologues and mechanisms to be targeted, and while doing it have to be conscious of the dangers posed by the brainwashed supporters and take steps to neutralize them as and when necessary. A lot of this can be made easier by our religious and social leadership - if they take certain initiatives - and not behave like a faction of the Kashmiri Pundits who refused to allow forced convertees to "re-enter" in the historical past.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Shreeman » 30 Nov 2008 22:09

SaiK wrote:Is India intelligent enough to ask ...

Every now and then even experienced posters do this. Kindlee note:

1. No one will do your job for you. Its like asking a neighbor to father a son for you. If they do agree, its not for your benefit. The same number of people will die, you can do twenty now in Bombay, and twenty next week in Guwahati, and fifty by Maoists the following week, or you can address the issue.

2. The US in particular is FAR FAR closer to Pakistan (for GOAT, or whatever other reasons) than India. There is NO, NONE, ZILCH, NADA internal strategic reason in US, UK, or any other country to put India ahead of Pakistan. There are plenty, often US tied reasons to do the reverse.

3. Every "lets ask them to give us" buys them time. In the mean time, the media is being used to vent rage and make the event "old". No more "lets ask them...". Get yourself what you want. Or plan to get yourself what you want.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby samuel » 30 Nov 2008 22:12

Parliament (2001), Akshardham (2002), Ayodhya (2005), Diwali (2005), Mumbai Train bombings (2006), Varanasi (2006), Ahmedabad (2008), Embassy (2008), Mumbai (2008).

There is a longer list.

The response:

1. NSG in 4 major spots for quicker "response," that gets there within a half-hour 8)
2. A federal investigation agency (how many do we need?)

The problem, dear fellows, is next door, by far and by large. The US has said that if Pak can't contain terrorism within, it will do it for them. Can't we at least follow the Americans. I mean most pols have their kids in the US pot, why not just follow them?

Is there any other country in the world that sits or has sat around after an invasion of this magnitude?

Our strategic goals. Recover POK, open corridor. Establish buffer zone, dismember pakistan. If we do this, we might survive yet.

JMT

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby SandeepA » 30 Nov 2008 22:20

Just for the record..I know this list is not complete..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_attacks_in_india

    Date Incident Fatalities Injured Status of case (Arrests made/ Cracked/ Verdict given)
    March 12, 1993 Bombay bombings 257 Verdict given
    1997 Brahmaputra Mail train bombing unknown
    February 14, 1998 Coimbatore bombings 46 Verdict given
    October 1, 2001 Terrorists attack Jammu-Kashmir assembly complex 35 unknown
    December 13, 2001 Attack on the parliament complex in New Delhi 7 Verdict given
    2002 Kurnool train crash unknown
    2002 Rafiganj rail disaster unknown
    27 February 2002 Godhra Train Burning unknown
    September 24, 2002 Terrorists attack the Akshardham temple in Gujarat 31 unknown
    March 13, 2003 A terrorist bomb attack on a commuter train in Mumbai.[1] 11 unknown
    May 14, 2003 Terrorists attack an army camp near Jammu, killing more than 30, including women and children. 30 unknown
    August 25, 2003 Simultaneous car bombs in Mumbai 52 unknown
    August 15, 2004 Bomb explodes in Assam, killing 16 people, mostly school children. 16 unknown
    2005 Jaunpur train bombing unknown
    July 5, 2005 Shri Ram Janmabhoomi attack in Ayodhya 0 unknown
    October 29, 2005 Three powerful serial blasts in New Delhi at different places just two days before Hindu festival Deepawali[2]. 70 unknown
    March 7, 2006 Three synchronized terrorist attacks in Varanasi in Shri Sankatmochan Mandir and Varanasi Cantonment Railway Station. 21 unknown
    July 11, 2006 Series of 7 train bombing during the evening rush hour in Mumbai. 209 unknown
    September 8, 2006 Series of bomb blasts in the vicinity of a mosque in Malegaon, Maharashtra 37 125 unknown
    18 February 2007 Samjhauta Express bombings unknown
    May 18, 2007 At least 13 people were killed, including 4 killed by the Indian police in the rioting that followed, in the bombing at Mecca Masjid, Hyderabad that took place during the Friday prayers. 13 unknown
    August 25, 2007 Two blasts in Hyderabad's Lumbini park and a restaurant. The police reportedly managed to find and defuse another bomb in the same area. 42 unknown
    May 13, 2008 9 bomb blasts along 6 areas in Jaipur. 63 unknown
    July 25, 2008 8 low intensity bomb blasts in Bangalore. 2 20 arrests made
    July 26, 2008 17 serial bomb blasts in Ahmedabad. 29 110 arrests made
    September 13, 2008 5 bomb blasts in Delhi markets. 21 110 unknown
    September 27, 2008 Bombings at Mehrauli area 2 bomb blasts in Delhi flower market. 1 17 unknown
    September 29, 2008 10 killed and 80 in bombings in Maharashtra and Gujarat bomb blasts. 10 unknown
    October 1, 2008 Agartala bombing. 4 100 unknown
    October 21, 2008 Imphal bomb blast. 17 40 unknown
    October 30, 2008 Assam bomb blast. 77 300 unknown
    November 26, 2008 Coordinated attack in Mumbai.[3] 195 327 unknown

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Shreeman » 30 Nov 2008 22:21

NRao wrote:
brihaspati wrote:For the presence of foreign moles around the PM's of India - look at the top heading :
[url]http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/e7txt/50163.htm
[/url] There is a pdf image of the actual memo somewhere!


So what else is new? Play the game. Use the largest middle class to make a statement - instead of outsourcing it to someone else. TODAY India is good enough to take on any challenge - exception: politicians, the one breed that shoots India in its foot.


Politicians shoot every country in the foot. Ours aren't (yet, or often enough) getting caught wiggling out of airport bathroom situations. Other populace are just a tiny bit harder to lull back to sleep. The vast majority of people think nothing when asking these same people to break/bend the law for them - for a job, for a bureaucratic matter or otherwise. And if anyone else still stood up, I doubt they will get any votes.

Politicians aren't the issue. If there is sufficient mobilization of public (read thailand), the polity will act. Do it once, rather than in bits every two weeks.

PS: If you know a journalist, buy them a samjhota ticket to Faridkot, or muridke. Can we start a BR fund for setting up journalists' travel to these places? "The BR Foundation for Independent Journalism Travel Fellowship funds travel by journalists to terrorism hot spots".

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby brihaspati » 30 Nov 2008 22:27

War is partly about economics but not all about economics : it is not about whetehr they can really benefit but what Pak thinks it can benefit from war that matters -

Pakistan actually thinks in the following way -

(1) It has lost control over its NW - its army lower ranks is probably partly deserting to the Taleban (given the long ideological preparations and brainwashing of upconing Pakistani generations allowed under West-islam-Paki cooperation). It has doubtful and a much more closed-fist supply line from the US. Its northern access routes to supply from Iran and China getting affected by the US move towards NE Afghanistan. It has difficulties with the entire western border, and the Balochis in the south-west.

(2) By moving its remaining salvageable army to the eastern border it postpones total carryover of the Pak army into the Taleban camp.

(3) It gets a religious national issue to subsume internal dissension and even incorporate Talebani support against India - infact such a negotiation could have allowed the Mumbai attacks. The textual injunctions in Islam to attacking and absorbing India as a holy task gets wide publicity in the Jihadi circles (a ruse used as early as Sabuktigin and Mahmud) - could then be combined with failing Islamic Multani elite remnant control to postpone the dissolution of Pakistan.

(4) As far as economics is concerned it will be supplied by China and Iran (it shares land and sea border with Iran although through Balochi area). And war is a most profitable economy if you can use it properly.

(5) There will be war on three fronts from the Indian side - a naval attack to blockade and cut off Iranian supply lines by linking up with the Balochis and blockading the southern sea-board. A desert offensive to protect central India, and prevent northern help to beleaguered South. A defensive positional one on the Punjab and a deep penetration strike at the entrance to the Kashmir valley to isolate Multan. Depending on how Russian and US cooperate things will take off from here - but it is a future prospect and should be done only on India's choice of time and context. (sorry! all who despair of armchair generals)

I see no reasons why the Pakistanis will not think of war at this stage by India as beneficial to them!

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby asprinzl » 30 Nov 2008 22:46

Folks, military option is not an option at all at the present level of military strength. Even if Indian forces cannot destroy all the nukes or nuke parts, they should completely take out their delivery mechanism. I am not talking about 99% success or even 99.999999% success. You need to be 100% successful. You cannot allow a single missile to escape and cannot allow a single aircraft to take to the air. You have to take out each and every missile, their bases, their assembly lines, their fuel deports, aircrafts, etc that will render the enemy absolutely unable to respond except to fire artilery shells ac.ross the frontier.

For this you need to have a massive pre-emptive air assault without giving the enemy any reprieve to either get a breather or sleep that would take out most of his nuke and nuke delivery assets in the first go. Second wave and following waves should come without let-up and clean up whatever that was left after the initial strike.

To succeed, first of all one need near perfect inteligence-mostly humint. Then for the attack you need AWACS for round the clock watch and air-refueling asset to keep the fighters and AWACS in the air round the clock.

This is not child's play. You cannot conduct one surgical strike and then wait for the enemy to get back at you so that you can carry out a second strike that is more devastating. You will never know what the enemy will do to you after you conduct your first surgical strike and gradual escalation will give the enemy the room to adjust both physically and morally.

As I see it, India currently does not have any AWACS. The aerial refueling capability is limited and worse of all the balance of airpower is only marginally in India's favor. Imagine what wonders 120 extra M2Ks could achieve. It took the government almost 10 years to decide on the purchase of AWACS. Going seven years to figureout in what darkness they are gropping before deciding on the MRCA and nearly 20 years of dilly-dallying before giving the go ahead on the aquisition of an air-craft carrier and nearly as much time on the nuke-sub.

Great governmental responsibility. I am sure they could have blundered worse by putting up signs for the Jihadist where to strike and where not to strike for lack of plump targets. Imagine seeing signs all over india " Jihadi habibi, strike this spot. Lots of goras come here" or "Save You Ammo, Don't strike here. This is Jew Free Zone".

Ultimately the responsibility fall on the India population itself because they are the ones who elect their governments. You get what you deserve. On a similar note all the sufferings that Israelis suffer is due to our spineless government. We elected the Baraks, Tzipis and the Olmerts. The net result? more than a thousand terrorists with jewish blood in their hands walked away. The more professional we get, the more wimppy we turn out to be. There used to be a time when the terrorist dreaded capture for the excruciatingly painful fate awaited him upon capture. But we became wimps who feared amnesty international more than the terrorists who is bent on killing us. We placed unnecessary handicap upon ourselves. Now, the terrorist love to be captured alive because in Gaza he may not get nutritious meal three times a day but in Israeli captivity he will get that apart from TV, magazines, a gym to work out and free education to obtain a degree if he wants to. When he walks out he will be an intellectual, educated, savy with the media, healthy and still bent on killing Jews. He will be a better killer thanks to Israeli tax-payers. We deserve the government we choose. Sad.
Avram

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby shyamd » 30 Nov 2008 22:46

NRao wrote:
shyamd wrote:Maybe an economist will be able to answer better. My understanding is Paki's are broke. So, any war would mean their economy will collapse even more and will have to survive off even more handouts from GCC to fly their planes and maintain their defences, if paki govt/economy collapses then, will we have a bigger situation to deal with?


Two Uncles can fund them.

War is not an option and should not be.

This is a great opportunity to get ISI under civilian control. I would not be surprised at all IF the US is making all this noise just to ensure that is what happens. I feel that the target is not LeT or even AQ right now. The emphasis world wide is to take out ISI.

To counter that the Pakis are bound to say this is an internal problem to India. This arg is NOT an GoP strategy, it is a ISI strat.

The thing is any army would like an intel organisation, so it is easy for Pak military to call civvie govt traitors if any steps like that are taken, look they are weakening the army because of Yindu Kaafir. So how would they go about doing it? It is going to be close to impossible for them to track down each employee/asset. Hell the head of the ISI can barely control the actions of ISI. Something clearly needs to be done about the ISI, how do you decimate an intelligence organisation? How do we know who to target as quite often we are dealing with operatives who are using fake names/id's?

The only way is to re-organise the ISI, I reported earlier that there was a major shuffle within the ISI, when Shuja Pasha took over. These army people who were shown the door could easily act as freelancers for the terror organisations/taliban. The only way to get rid of these trouble makers is to kill/imprison them, but how do you get a civilian govt to order such a thing?

Whatever is going to happen to ISI, it has to come from within, its going to be painful for Pak. But this is what is needed to stop Indian civilians from Dieing. I think India needs to make it clear to the US/world that India will not stand by and watch its civilians will die because of the ISI. It has to be the donors like US/GCC who have to force pak into this. War will just create more problems.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Baljeet » 30 Nov 2008 22:46

Saggu Boss
On your point #4
We have no duty to stop the prolifiration of WMD from Pak. That is not our problem that is the problem of people who created this monster for their own egotistical reasons, geopolitical reasons etc, just like Al Quaeda monster was created and now the chicken have come home to roost.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby ramana » 30 Nov 2008 22:49

The warning should go to US and not TSP. Either US defangs Pakistan or India will do it. All this to and fro with TSP is useless and keeps us hyphenated to be ratcheted at will. There has to be a game changer.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Anabhaya » 30 Nov 2008 22:50

Avram. There is enough space for a limited conflict. Frankly, I think many of us are overplaying the nuke card. No paki jernail will launch a nuke - they know what they stand to lose.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby ramana » 30 Nov 2008 22:51

India has to warn US that either US defangs TSP or India will. That is the only option left. The to and fro with TSP retains the hyphenation. Need a game changer.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby John Snow » 30 Nov 2008 22:53

War is an instrument of peace.
Armed forces are tools to wage peace
A nation is not a piece of land
A nation is collection of people and the core values it beleives in.
A unprovoked aggression on a nation (of people and ideas) is an act of war.

It is immaterial if the aggression was perpetuated by individuals or a nation, it needs to be answered with all the tools of peace preservation at our disposal.

A repeat occurance of assaults and agrression with no fitting reply is an abject act of surrender.

The outcome of a campaign for peace through war is not predictable but surely make the aggressor pay a price which will make him yearn for peeace.

We Indians as a nation are wasting resources and failing to be peacefull nation if we dont wage war for the very principles
we call ourselves a civilized nation.

Finally We as nation have not understood or planned for an end game with regard to terrorist state of pakistan.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Anabhaya » 30 Nov 2008 22:54

ramana wrote:The warning should go to US and not TSP. Either US defangs Pakistan or India will do it. All this to and fro with TSP is useless and keeps us hyphenated to be ratcheted at will. There has to be a game changer.


and that is going to rattle the US into action? :rotfl:

If the intention is to get the US to defang then the only means it can be conveyed is by a full mobilization, with ultimatums for extraditing the whole leadership of the jihadi machinery.

with an oxford education accountant to warm the seat for rahul baba we're better off not wasting time here.
Last edited by Anabhaya on 30 Nov 2008 22:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby SwamyG » 30 Nov 2008 22:58

We Indians as a nation are wasting resources and failing to be peacefull nation if we dont wage war for the very principles
we call ourselves a civilized nation.
In other words - dharmo rakshati rakshitah.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby John Snow » 30 Nov 2008 22:59

The US is and has been always a part of this TSP aggression against India ( as a matter of fact even against US).

Lat time we wanted do something Al bin Calling Pavel, Amrithraj bench press etc said dont do it as they were (US troops) were also operating in TSP.

The death of the Brigadier should have been the last straw and plans should have been in place ( if our so called Supre duper MAK narayanan had any thing down stairs or upstairs).


We just wish away the problems or just want to carry chappals of any body who can dole out some favors...

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby SaiK » 30 Nov 2008 23:00

Shreeman wrote:
SaiK wrote:Is India intelligent enough to ask ...

Every now and then even experienced posters do this. Kindlee note:

1. No one will do your job for you. Its like asking a neighbor to father a son for you. If they do agree, its not for your benefit. The same number of people will die, you can do twenty now in Bombay, and twenty next week in Guwahati, and fifty by Maoists the following week, or you can address the issue.

2. The US in particular is FAR FAR closer to Pakistan (for GOAT, or whatever other reasons) than India. There is NO, NONE, ZILCH, NADA internal strategic reason in US, UK, or any other country to put India ahead of Pakistan. There are plenty, often US tied reasons to do the reverse.

3. Every "lets ask them to give us" buys them time. In the mean time, the media is being used to vent rage and make the event "old". No more "lets ask them...". Get yourself what you want. Or plan to get yourself what you want.


na na.. you on the wrong foot. I am not posting from an angle that shows our capability and duty, our job etc.. you have to consider our situation from our setup, politicians and their setup, our weakness etc. that includes, like what vajpayee was restricted to do. you can say 1000 things before becoming a PM or president.. take bush, obama or any body for that matter. vajpayee had the most best hand any PM or leader would have had in the world.. there was a big clout of people who will raise and say, stop, we can't cross LoC.. dont use the nukes etc.. get what i am saying.. think like a chess player.. think about moves ahead, and see the net effect. play your game ahead.

it is important for us to make america act!.. and thus prove to the world, that we are highly brilliant people with high IQ.

please awaken! the kalki is calling!

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby p_saggu » 30 Nov 2008 23:01

Hey Avram,
India does hold a very decisive Air superiority over Pakistan. Our Aerial refueling capability is for the moment adequate for a small confrontation. Remember that there are plenty of airfields / air bases all over the place, and the distance that fighters would have to travel is really not very large. Plus our main strike aircraft the MKI has huge reserves in terms of fuel.
The AWACS is the problem though. The Phalcon AWACS from Israel was scheduled to arrive some time now, but will perhaps arriver early next year. This is only the one aircraft now. The second and third will arrive after a few years :evil:

The problem is the missiles and the task that you propose. Remember Gulf War 1? Even the USAF along with the coalition forces found it difficult to take out all the scuds. I am sure they were equipped to the teeth with electronics and sensors even satellite based warnings of missile launches sat based surveillance.
Pakistan is a lot bigger, and IAF (Indian Air Force - Not the Israeli Air Force) is not as equipped as the USAF.

The Nukes are a different matter though. I am sure India tracks the movements of every nuke in pakistan's possession with the various assets it has at its disposal. If push came to shove, I think India could reasonably be confident of taking care of this threat.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Anabhaya » 30 Nov 2008 23:03

if the intention of the pubes was to provoke India into some sort of an 'eventuality' why are they whining already about a war situation and threatening the US about withdrawing 4,00,00,000 TFTA men on western border. if they wanted a skirmish of sorts they'd keep quiet rather than offering 'select briefings' to you-know-who.

gentlemen, i think the ISI-PA-jihadi axis is beyond all redemption. its the civilian toothless government that is promising 'co-operation' and what not to dilli. and then later at night I presume TFTA pindi-warriors neutralize whatever the civil government does.

when mms phones up zardari or tsp prime minister he is not dealing with the real power-centers. perhaps that is why he wanted ISI Chief jernail in dilli for debriefing. recall tsp PM promised ISI Chief jernail for dilli durbar then was made to humbly fumble it up after a meet with PA jernails.

the jihadi axis is desperate for conflict. in case of a conflict the guvarmand will be overthrown sooner than later. thus civil 'guvarmand' is desperate to save its ass from the jihadi axis by avoiding conflict and begging massa for intervention.
Last edited by Anabhaya on 30 Nov 2008 23:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Hariprasad » 30 Nov 2008 23:04

Israel praises Indian rescue efforts
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 57,00.html

First of all this article wrongly shows the Mumbai policemen as "troops". This is a deliberate misrepresentation on their part to show that Indian troops are ill-equipped and poorly trained. Second the response of an average Israeli based on the comments in the above link are extremely condescending, arrogant and ignorant.

Take a look at this article.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD94PBROG0

On Friday, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said it was clear that Indian forces were not on par with elite Israeli units. :roll:


The Israeli press clearly seems hostile to India. I'm deeply disturbed by this given the bonhomie enjoyed by average Israeli on the Indian streets.
Last edited by Hariprasad on 01 Dec 2008 01:18, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby John Snow » 30 Nov 2008 23:05

swamy G>> dont even go near dharma. because it makes me mad and also chuckle to death.

During Chinese aggression, the Prez of US JFK called Indian President S Radhakrishnan and said do you need some military help, equipment, personell?

Sree Radhakrishnan was supposed to have said to POTUS (JFK) Sir thanks for your kind help, we have Dharma on ourside and we will win without your help!

The telephone connections that were then POTUS heard it as Dharmo ~ thermo and the CIA was sent into tizzy thinking
India had Thermo Nukes....


So much for Dharma, themo, dharmo etc....

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby pran » 30 Nov 2008 23:05

Ramana,
That will not happen as long as MMS/SG is at the helm. All he could think of is a All encompassing big govt. agency which will be used against the citizens & politicial purposes in due course of time just like IB. As a leader of 1 billion people did he promise the indians that this is the last massacre by the Pakis on Indian soil ,did he have the conviction and courage to that ? No he did not. He does not have mandate from SG to take independent decisions.
Time and again Indian politicians have failed the citizens and we wonder how stupid we are, keep believing that democracy will work, and end up electing nincompoops and criminals.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby samuel.chandra » 30 Nov 2008 23:11

BR gurus, please review petition. Posting it on both TSP related threads. Petition cannot be changed after its posted. So any feedback, please provide now.

Goals of this petition:
- Force the Indian government to untie the military's hands to allow them to engage Pakistan in a limited/full scale war.
- Keep the issue of a lack of response from the Congress and BJP to Pakistani terror alive during this election season. This is not just a problem with Congress but BJP as well. This time we cannot allow these politicians to back down.

What's working for us:
- Elections in 6 months. Both parties will vie for our votes. We can set up a contest. Whoever is more aggressive on security gets our support. The best option at this stage is to put pressure on the Congress because they will be desperate to retain power. Of course if the congress doesn’t deliver, we can vote for BJP.
- Worldwide sympathy. The media coverage worldwide ensures that Govt. of India doesn't have to do any PR management in support of the war.
- The elite in India. This time the targets were the elite. They will not fund election campaigns if Pakistan is not made to pay for this.

What’s working against us:
- The Americans and British who want the Pakistanis to fight their war on terror... and want us to be just happy with superficial meetings and committees. We can’t blame them. They are doing it in their best interest. We have to take care of ours.
- The US media. They are trying to project this as an internal/Kashmir issue precisely to fulfill their agenda mentioned above.
- The Indian media. The left wing/secular/communist media doesn’t want India to retaliate. Recent media shops are MNC controlled (hence will promote western interests). So we the people, have very few friends in the media.
- The Pakis, of course. They have done their job. All that’s remaining is to somehow placate the Indians and avoid any retaliation (they are probably very confident of this since they have done this very effectively in the past).
- The Political parties in India. Congress does not want to have to deal with this during this election season. They are hoping that we forget this like we usually do. Communist parties in India(probably on directions of the Chinese). BJP, probably wants the issue to keep boiling for 6 months so it gains electorally... without actually solving it.

Let's analyze some of the alternatives besides partial/full war:
- Can we negotiate with Pakistani Army/ISI. That’s not an option. Their only objective is to keep India down like their own under-developed nation. If you need a reminder, just read the article about how Captain Kalia was tortured: http://www.petitiononline.com/LtKalia/petition.html
- Can we ask Pakistan to hand over Dawood /Chota shakeel/Massod Azhar. We can..but it will drag on for ever and never actually happen based on past experience. Besides they are just the low level guys. The handlers are the ISI.
- Can we ask the US/British lobby to put pressure on Pakistanis to deliver eliminate terror and deliver Dawood/LET cheif. They have been largely unsuccessful at getting anything from Pakistanis even after paying them, threatening them and bombing them.
- Can we ask our current Govt. to send troops across the border. Bomb key camps across the border. Cause pain to the handlers (who are obviously rejoicing at the carnage they have caused in Mumbai). We can. But from all indications, Congress is looking to drag this on by talking to everyone until the issue becomes irrelevant. The Americans and the British are looking to actively help the congress in its quest for inaction. They need the Pakistanis to concentrate on the Afghan border and a conflict in the east is bad for them.
- Is electing the BJP a better option. Yes, slightly better option. Their track record is not exactly stellar. They are making noises about security. But they are not coming out clearly saying they will cross the border and teach the Pakis a good lesson. They are talking about security but it’s deliberately fuzzy. The actual action that would be taken is not clear. If the BJP clarifies their plan, clearly, categorically, yes, we could vote for them.
- We secure every major building in all the major cities. Any temporary let up in security could still cause a Mumbai kind incident. But it's possible. Very expensive, not very practical, not error proof either, we will be spreading ourselves too thin. Any concentrated attack on one location with enough force to go over the threshold can cause a Mumbai like situation again. So theoretically possible, but don't think, very practical.


Consequences of inaction:
- We remain a soft target. The next attack will be more audacious (possibly a dirty nuclear bomb in a city center).
- You or your loved once will fall victims to a Paki bomb at some point. It's a question of probability. It's like you are walking blindfolded thru a mine-field.
- The Paki terrorists laugh at you because they think you are impotent. This is pretty much how the ancient kingdoms were repeatedly attacked, pillaged and raped by the barbarian hordes until they finally took over. Obviously, they know that we haven’t learnt much from our history. Are they wrong?
- The investments dry up. The world loses confidence in India's security climate and stops investing. All that we have worked for is being destroyed by these barbarians. Repeat of history...don’t you think?

Consequences of action (a partial / full war)
- The unknown. We don't know the outcome. But without the risk, there is no reward. Besides what do we have to lose now. They have already attacked all the economic centers of India in the past few attacks. They are in severe economic distress. They will sue for peace after a week's battle.
- Nuclear war. With a partial war, this won't be triggered.
- Other countries. US/UK/China.
All the publicity in the western media means that they understand what we have gone thru. They cannot now turn against us and support Pakistan. China might but it’s not going to join in an overt battle. The most China will do is supply it weapons.
- Economic loss. The economic loss of not acting is actually more that going for a partial war.
- The world will respect us for taking care of this menace called Pakistan. They are the world’s problem... not just ours. The objective of the war might be to create smaller enclaves within Pakistan so they have local enemies to fight against! That solves the problem for ever.


Action plan:
1) Send copies of this petition to the political parties (already sent them to PMO/AICC), media, Bharat-Rakshak.com.
2) Collecting names of authors who favor our position and getting them onboard. eg: Analysts like : B Raman.
3) Coordinating with other efforts that are being suggested in websites like Bharat-Rakshak like peaceful demonstrations across the country demanding action.
4) Posting paid advertisements in websites like Sulekha/Rediff etc asking for support.
5) Coordinating with other petitioners/bloggers like Pushkar Bhat (http://pushkarbhat.com/blogs/2008/11/we ... d-actions/)
6) Keep exposing the approach of the current govt of:
- Distracting/appeasing the public by making a few heads roll.
- Getting Bush/Obama to diffuse the crisis by suggesting Indians are resilient.
- Distracting public attention by focusing on efforts at preventing future terror attacks (while commendable, do not include retaliation which is a must for Pakistanis to feel the pain).
7) Faxing copies of the petition and response reports to PMO/AICC/BJP offices on weekly basis.

The most important thing we need to show the politicians is that we will not forget this time. And that we will be consistently apply the pressure over the next 6 months. We should not get cynical. That’s what the politicians are hoping. They are scared of the resolve we are showing currently. Let’s believe this will work. Let’s send it to all our friends. We have to beat the politicians this time. Let’s not think emotionally. We have to be as smart as the politicians in achieving our goals. We have to promote this like there was no tomorrow. The next major terror attack will take years and Pakistanis would have learnt from their mistakes and will cover their tracks (and most likely the attack would be dirty bombs). So let’s not lose this opportunity.


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