Indian Response to Terrorism

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Dec 2008 19:09

I'm sorry I couldn't find the terror law bill from google news.
can some kindly soul please guide me to a link ?
thanks.

The key point which tells me that the proposed "non-POTA" is stupid, is the item where it says the onus of proof is being shifted to the defendant. There is no way to defend this, and there is no way that this will not result in innocents being incarcerated indefinitely, and innocent lives destroyed, and more hate generated. This one item can result in the disintegration of India.

OMG !
if true, this is a marked shift from the spirit of India's judicial system.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Dec 2008 19:16

The last remaining hopes are fading away...

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 16 Dec 2008 19:16

Ah.. the great Indian response to terrorism- new law.

Next time there is an attack, use the law against mango admi on the street who

about GOI being soft on terrorism. Terrorist problem solved onlee.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 16 Dec 2008 19:16

harbans wrote:Personally i have never been in favor of a death penalty in India ever, neither have been in favor of Guaanamo Bay style holdings.

Even when someone has been proved guilty for the most egregious of crimes, the max punishment is 14 yrs rigorous imprisonment {unless he/she does not get the capital punishment already which seems to be only reserved for killing pradhan mantris -- despite that we all know that the cases of Nalini and Afzal Guru are a joke}. Of the 14 yrs, strike off all those days that are "holidays", and you see folks walk off 6-7 yrs after killing people in broad daylight. Thats for the worst case scenario. In case the convicted person gets only 5 yrs of max punishment {because the rule book stipulates that} for certain "lesser" crimes like rape, swindling a 1000 people of their livelihood, rape of a child etc, he/she can still walk off free in 2 yrs or so!

Why is the Victorian rule of law still followed in India 60 yrs past its use by date? To deter crime, the punishment has to be severe when proved unambiguously subject to fair re-hearings! Forget capital punishment, even imprisonment in India is a joke!! So we have a system where judiciary is late, judicial enforcement is a joke, bureaucracy is lax, politicians are anti-national, and the executive is more or less self-serving. I am all for encounter killings given this sorry state of affairs. Please enlighten me why encounter killings are bad.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Dec 2008 19:39

I am all for encounter killings given this sorry state of affairs. Please enlighten me why encounter killings are bad.

Yup...the massive outpouring of support in Warangal seems to bear that fact..

People have got tired of the courts. These days, being dragged to court/dragging someone to court is a bigger terror than being wronged since a case in court ensures countless working hours gone running up and down to court whenever the case is conducted over a HUGE duration of time, lots of harassment from all and sundry and greedy lawyers milking money for the case which runs for 5-6 years minimum assuming its a open and shut case(even if the case was for cheating of Rs 100, one shells out Rs 1000 to get back that money).

Also, in the case of many terrorists, vote banking (like in Hyd) ensures the guys are back on the street in no time( due to bail/let off since no witnesses to testify/neta calling up local police station) and when they commit the next act, the cycle repeats. IIRC, the back of the Mumbai underworld was broken only when the police got a free hand to encounter since jail time was looked as a kind of R&R

.
(No doubt there had been few excesses but the present criminal justice system stinks to the high heavens with 0% chance of reform due to insane politics).

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 16 Dec 2008 20:01

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/No_b ... 846827.cms

The bill to amend the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act has stringent provisions including detention period of 180 days instead of 90 days now and denial of bail altogether to a foreigner accused of terrorism in the country.

Even an Indian national accused in a terror-related case cannot be released on bail or on his own bond unless the public prosecutor has been given an opportunity of being heard on the application for such release.

The bill says that the court shall presume, unless the contrary is shown, that the accused has committed an offence for which he has been arrested, including possession of arms or explosives with a belief that these or such substances were used in the commission of a terror act.

I think it may be better to:
1. Ask citizens to carry proof of citizenship and identity or be able to produce it on demand.

2. Any noncitizen arrested for suspicion of crime or terrorism gets no option of bail, unless the person is here legally and has close family whose citizenship and residence is established and can provide guarantees of custody and until said family petitions. Bail may then be made available as an option for due consideration by court, which is required to process bail petitions within 72 hours.

3. Those caught bearing or transporting arms or munitions will go to special detention for laal-mirchi in ch**tad and mental rejuvenation before trial unless a preliminary hearing can establish a reasonable legal basis for ownership or discharge, whence normal considerations for deciding on a bail available to unarmed citizens and residents may apply. Preliminary hearing within 72 hours.

4. Any person revealed to be a noncitizen and illegally in the country to the police is required to be immediately arrested and handed over to the home ministry for deportation proceedings.

I am no lawyer obviously, but even the simple take in 1-4 seems too watered down to me.

S

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 16 Dec 2008 20:20

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/No_p ... 844285.cms

Defence Minister takes options off the table, friendly neighbor that we are...

21 days have passed since the attack on Bombay and what have we achieved??

As happened after the attack on Parliament, diplomats from the "Great Powers" descend on India advising restraint and to share in the sorrow of a few hundred more Indians killed.

What would have happened in these 21 days if a similar attack occured in New York, London, Paris, Moscow, Tel Aviv etc. ????

Indian Politicians plead in front of the world about being hurt by the little bully next door, claiming that it is a global responsibility to tackle such behavior.

My question to the politicians, HAS INDIA BEEN ATTACKED AND INNOCENT INDIANS KILLED OR A FEW HUNDRED PENGUINS BEEN SLAUGHTERED IN ANTARCTICA???? Why should the world do anything other than pay lip service? Who have the Indian electorate elected and for what??

To the ex-Finance Minister/new Home Minister an action plan, since the global/indian economy is in a tail spin...India has to do it's bit to help this pressing global issue afterall...

1) Scrap the Indian Army - they were unable to detect the occupation of Kargil, it was a goatherd who initially detected the incursion. Think of all the money saved!!!

2) Scrap the Indian Navy / Coast Guard - They were unable to to detect /stop the attack on Mumbai. What is the point of chasing somali pirates in skiffs with such sophisticated ships, and when these pirates are caught, not knowing what to do with them. If the terrorists who attacked Mumbai had been caught, they could have claimed to be pirates and the IN would have provided them return fare to their place of origin.

3) Scrap the Indian Air Force - Remember, they along with the Indian Army couldn't detect the intrusion in Kargil anyway.

With all the money saved, give I-pods and Dell computers to every Indian who votes in the upcoming election. Think of the boost it will give to the US/Global economy, the US president will come down personally to New Delhi to thank India and spend a night in one of the many rooms at Rashtrapati Bhavan. It will also give your govt. another term at the helm of affairs...

In case of any futue attacks on India - Just Pathetically Plead in front of the world!!! After all, it's a global issue of terorism. While at it, change the national anthem to the pleading bhajan from Lagaan, Shakti Daw, jag ke jo swami ho...

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 16 Dec 2008 20:30

Thanks, there it is, the Victorian "law":

The bill says that the court shall presume, unless the contrary is shown, that the accused has committed an offence for which he has been arrested, including possession of arms or explosives with a belief that these or such substances were used in the commission of a terror act.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 16 Dec 2008 20:33

Cabinet says no to new terror law.

The Chinese agents do not want new anti-teror laws.

The Bas***d Politicians are upto their old game of Vote counting even after everything has happened. With BJP + Congress in favor of new laws, would the the others be able to prevent new laws?

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 16 Dec 2008 20:45

Here's my uninformed take, fwiw.

Code: Select all

Suspect=N=> Go HOME!
 || Y
Arrest: 72Hr detention, max.
 ||
Prelim Hearing: 72Hr. max.{
Is citizen =N=> Is legal =N=> Send to: Detention, Trial, Punishment, Deportation
   ||Y	           ||Y	      
   Arms or Ammunition?=N=> Evidence of Accomplice?=N=> Send to bail proceeding.
           ||Y                               ||Y
     }     Detention for period of 60 days. Xfer to special court {
                       ||
		Terror Charges? =Y=> Send to Special Detention/Trail.
                       ||N
	      	Additional evidence? =N=> Send to bail proceeding.
		     	||Y
		Special Detention for for 90 days.
			||
		Charges framed? =Y=> Send to Special Trial/Detention.
			||N
		President invokes National Security?=N=> Send to bail proceeding.
	}		||Y
		     Enemy of State.	Indefinete Detention.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 16 Dec 2008 20:47

Where do we stand after 20 days of the jehadi attack? Defence Minister says no war . Foreign Minister says that he wants action from Pakistan . Pakistan says that it won't do anything against its beloved jehadi pigs.Why don't we scrap our defence ministry and home ministry?What is the point in spending billions on cruise missiles,ballistic missiles,5th gen fighter aircraft,nuclear submarines when the country is used to getting kicked in its back by the beloved pakis and bengalis

I think , the politicians have decided to leave this planet and settle on moon , hence Chandrayaan,

Once we get settled on Chandamama, we won't have jehadi neighbours, and it will be all peace , next time our MMS will warn porkistan "if you send your pigs to India , we will settle to moon"Maybe this is the last and final way to combat terrorism... increase the budget on our moon mission...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Dec 2008 20:53

Why should India, as a country, pass an anti-terrorism law when non-state actors, like Pakistan and BD, are the problem?

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 16 Dec 2008 20:57

It shouldn't. It should invoke the loss of national security and go to overt or covert war, unless extenuating circumstances to the contrary show up before T=0.

But it won't.

It will at best use this opportunity to suggest "internal reorganization," and indeed some postors here ventured that way too.

Though that is all it will do, thanks to the non-leadership, much work to be done in internal side too, especially given how easy it has been to manipulate law for party benefit.

If no one (not a single party) is going to make the obvious choice for a collective national offensive in response to this war, then should we, the citizens, stop participating in the internal reorganization, which isn't a small matter either, even if a distraction it should seem?

S

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 16 Dec 2008 21:02

NRao wrote:Why should India, as a country, pass an anti-terrorism law when non-state actors, like Pakistan and BD, are the problem?

Aha Aha!! Good one. Finally some truth very succintly said. Pak and BD are non-states and also actors.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 16 Dec 2008 21:04

NRao wrote:Why should India, as a country, pass an anti-terrorism law when non-state actors, like Pakistan and BD, are the problem?

Can anyone shed some light if there is a provision for the govt providing legal counsel and assistance in court to THE HOLY WARRIORS as maulana Mulayam's party demanded for the braveheart holy warriors of Indian Mujahideen ?THere should also be a provision in the new law to take utmost care of the HOLY Warriors coming from foreign land such as keeping them in 5 star hotels instead of jails because the kafir culture says " Atithi Devo Bhav "... the govt must take care of the kafir culture as well ...

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 16 Dec 2008 21:10

What is needed is a citizen's movement to up the ante on national security and governance. Neither of which will be forthcoming as long as ordinary citizens remain too divested from and ill-informed of the organization of power in the country and the influences upon it. What is needed, articulated earlier here and known to each one of us by instinct, is the rise of nationalism, what we think of as Indian nationalism and a simple test that helps us distinguish those that promote it from those that don't. It is possible for such a movement and education of a nation to happen through citizen action and that is my best hope and prayer for India in the long run.

The rest, pocket billiards.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 16 Dec 2008 21:23

samuel wrote:What is needed is a citizen's movement to up the ante on national security and governance. Neither of which will be forthcoming as long as ordinary citizens remain too divested from and ill-informed of the organization of power in the country and the influences upon it. What is needed, articulated earlier here and known to each one of us by instinct, is the rise of nationalism, what we think of as Indian nationalism and a simple test that helps us distinguish those that promote it from those that don't. It is possible for such a movement and education of a nation to happen through citizen action and that is my best hope and prayer for India in the long run.

The rest, pocket billiards.

Nationalism,Good Governance,National Security ...aha...these are the agendas of the HINDU NATIONALIST PARTY aka BJP ...and hence non-secular ...India is a secular country

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Dec 2008 21:45

samuel wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/No_b ... 846827.cms

The bill to amend the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act has stringent provisions including detention period of 180 days instead of 90 days now and denial of bail altogether to a foreigner accused of terrorism in the country.

Even an Indian national accused in a terror-related case cannot be released on bail or on his own bond unless the public prosecutor has been given an opportunity of being heard on the application for such release.

The bill says that the court shall presume, unless the contrary is shown, that the accused has committed an offence for which he has been arrested, including possession of arms or explosives with a belief that these or such substances were used in the commission of a terror act.
I think it may be better to:
1. Ask citizens to carry proof of citizenship and identity or be able to produce it on demand.

2. Any noncitizen arrested for suspicion of crime or terrorism gets no option of bail, unless the person is here legally and has close family whose citizenship and residence is established and can provide guarantees of custody and until said family petitions. Bail may then be made available as an option for due consideration by court, which is required to process bail petitions within 72 hours.

3. Those caught bearing or transporting arms or munitions will go to special detention for laal-mirchi in ch**tad and mental rejuvenation before trial unless a preliminary hearing can establish a reasonable legal basis for ownership or discharge, whence normal considerations for deciding on a bail available to unarmed citizens and residents may apply. Preliminary hearing within 72 hours.

4. Any person revealed to be a noncitizen and illegally in the country to the police is required to be immediately arrested and handed over to the home ministry for deportation proceedings.

I am no lawyer obviously, but even the simple take in 1-4 seems too watered down to me.

S

these can't prevent terrorism. of course this could be the few things that needs to be done. at large, the security loopholes, intelligent sharing, technology to detect and quick response, infrastructure, etc also are important in addition.

we can come up as many laws and in-laws from babooze, that does not work. brass tacks are security loopholes, infrastructure spending, intelligence sharing, fast response, 100 of NSG units, integrated IFF systems on vessels and vehicles, better arms and weapons for cops, all these are mandatory.

still, we can expect our allohokbar terrorist invading us.. but, we should be still seeing those as loopholes, and plug them as and when it happens.. bait those allahwallas, plug the loopholes, improve our democratic system for the middle and poor, encourage distributed commerce and not centered around big cities alone, all these are loopholes they can invade.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 16 Dec 2008 22:03

SSridhar wrote:
pradeepe wrote:. . . the police pick up the 3 guys and the pressure was so intense to bury this case that they took them to the outskirts on some pretext (to find where they had stashed their acid bottles) and shot all 3 of them dead. . . .
Good. Of course, the Human Rights groups will cry hoarse and AP has a lot of them who have consistently supported the Naxalites. If these criminals had not been eliminated, they would have come out scot free in a matter of days and threatened witnesses and police and scuttled the whole affair. Let's remember what happened when Mufti & VP Singh decided to release a few terrorists when the abduction drama of Mufti's daughter was enacted. Or, how we had to release Masood Azhar. Later, Musharraf declined to take action against Azhar claiming that Indians couldn't prove a thing in their own courts even after detaining him for so many years.

I feel the same way. And thats exactly the issue. What was lamentable in the AP acid attack case was how the neglect of a simple law and order problem became one where vigilantism (and vigilantism by the same f*cked up police!!) had to solve the issue. So where is the judiciary in all this. Might as well ask them to pack their bags and go home.

The parallel I was trying to draw to the terrorism response and in general the massive festering issues like BD infiltration etc isthat we have a government that sits on its musharraf and turns a blind eye to issues when they are still small and manageable. We now know the propensity of how these end up once a tipping point is reached.....with a lot of blood being spilt plus a massive undermining of the Indian state and all its constituent bodies. And we still have folks who steadfastly claim the inaction of the government as some big grand chankyan scheme to sort things out the Indian way.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 16 Dec 2008 22:11

Chidambaram turns down Z-security, begins rehaul

New Delhi: India's new home minister P Chidambaram leads from the front and by example. The man in charge of India's internal security has decided to put the nation before self and has categorically denied enhancement of security cover to Z-category.

He currently has Y-category security, which was provided when he was the union finance minister. After he took over as the home minister, the Intelligence Bureau and other security agencies did a fresh security and threat assessment for the minister, as is the routine.

His predecessor, Shivraj Patil had a Z-Plus security cover. There are around 400 VIPs in Delhi and around 15,000 Delhi Police personnel out of its strength of 60,000 are on VIP security duty.

After politely saying no to Z-security for himself, Chidambaram has changed the rules for other politicians and VIPs as well.

With immediate effect, all VIPs with Y-security will have one personnel less in the armed escort.

Previously, Y-category cover included 24/7 security, a head constable and 4 constables posted at the house.

While Z security spells a pilot and an escort vehicle for the protected person, and an additional team of four PSOs and a house guard.

A notch higher, the Z plus security is determined on the basis of threat perception to the protected person. SPG protection is also an option.

These changes are trickling down to other states as well, In Haryana, out of the 400 policemen engaged in protecting VIPs 150 have diverted and will instead be trained as commandoes in service of the state.

Punjab and Haryana High Court has asked the Punjab government to furnish information about the numbers of policemen engaged in protecting politicians.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Dec 2008 22:19

pradeepe, I have posted the AP case int eh good governance thread last Friday whn the attack first happned. I think your post should be there.

ramana
----------
The GOI strategy is to work in tandem with US to make the 'official' TSP turn on the jihadis/non-state players failing which there is the outsider option via the UN Security Council etc. There is a steady stream of info indictiing the TSP and its "non-state actors". I dont know who this will turn out.

Let me elaboarte. After the TSP acquired nukes there was no possibility of external forces to negate its power. However the collapse of Soviet Union shows that the only way to take out a rogue nuke state is the Bhasmausra option ie make it turn on itself. The FSU collapsed for economic(it was bankrupt) and more importantly political reasons. The people realised that their ideology was fake and failed and was keeping them from progressing. Hence they discarded the failed ideology.

However TSP hasnt realised its ills are due to the revisonist version of Islam that they have adopted since the 1971 defeat in order to prop up the Nazariya-e-Pakistan. And unlike the Russians they have this 'armegeddon' or millinealist vison just like the Nazis Gottdamerung or thunder of the gods way of going out. The only way to ensure a peaceful implosion is to isolate the sensile Pakis and let them control the nukes.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Dec 2008 22:26

if and onlee if India onlee feels pakis are bhasmasuras, then it would be difficult mohinize them. nobody other than India sees them as evil.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Dec 2008 22:38

Lets not ignore Lord China who can keep giving them the vardans. Implosion and explosion both are required for the extinction of humazee tribe kabila next door. Indian should always think of first recovering Pakjabi territory and then Tibet.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 16 Dec 2008 22:47

I understand what ramana is saying, yes, that sounds like Official Policy, but I also think they are completely wrong. The "sensible Pakis", all 3 of them, have no hope of controlling the nukes or any other part of their ars-e-nal because the Army will take what it wants.

The better lesson from the FSU experience is the Ukraine/Kazakhstan/Russia trifurcation of the WMD arsenal. Apparently Kazhakstan had tons and tons of the glowing stuff on hand, but not many weapons as such. OTOH, they DID have more than enough biological and chemical weapons to wipe out humanity a few times. The Ukrainians had nukes, and still have them, AFAIK. So Russia won't mess with either of these states, but neither of these states can mess with Russia either.

So the advantage of trying to protect the Paknukes (which of course I maintain, do not exist) and F-16s by protecting the Pakjabi Army, is counterproductive. An Azad Sindh with WMD capabilities may not be such a bad thing. I don't know if I would be so happy with Balochistan and Balwaristan and Pakhtoonistan having WMD.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 16 Dec 2008 22:48

I was praying to Allah (PBUH) fervently distraught by the recent activities of the followers of peaceful religion.
Suddenly the VOA (Voice of Allah PUBH) in a benevolent tone asked me child what is that you wish?

Oh Mighty Allah (PBUH) is there a way to protect us from the terrorists?

VOA said just go across the yellow sea and punish them.

But O merciful but we can’t cross the yellow sea because it would be Beimandari?
VOA was very angry, HE said, Bewakoof, yellow sea was for them not to cross, not for you! Besides the land beyond yellow sea belongs to you at least on Khagaz!
And don’t you dare disturb me with out doing your work, I am your master not servant to do your work said VOA in stern tone.
So the faith fool I am back to square one!

****************************************************
Mean while Our PM MMS was consulting our NSA MK N
PM, so tell me Narayanan what options we have and as you know I very price sensitive, we need to focus on economy in war or peace!
NSA, Well sir the terror camps are all beyond the yellow sea, We have to cross it get our peace leaflets to hit the targets. Crossing yellow sea means crossing the red lines imposed by TSP, and you know you don’t want to antagonize a powerful neighbor! Honestly even if you ask us to cross the yellow sea, we don’t have a FO C-in-C for Northern command. We need to order ships from Russia which are capable of crossing yellow sea!
MMS, but how did the terrorist cross the same yellow sea?
Good question sir, I think they came thru samjhota, it takes understanding! But in any case the terrorist came to India via Arabian sea and the Gateway of India!
Don’t worry sir I asked the NSG to close the Gate way to India so no problems there!
MMS, but why cant we use the same Arabian sea to get to the terrorist camps and talk to them some sense? Ok, Ok , I get it we don’t own Arabian sea, we only own the Indian Ocean.
NSA, Right sir, but we can ask TSP to allow us to use Arabian sea, but it will be expensive because the drive on high seas requires lot of GAS!

Oh here come the Chai Biscoot Samosas …
MMS the meeting is adjourned Sine a die people of India zindabad.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 16 Dec 2008 22:52

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Dec 2008 22:55

N^3, Also examine how Shahi Iran turned Khomeini Iran. And how did the Koumintang give up?

Both cases uncle sent emissaries to thinking people and advised them to give up as it would be much much worse.

The push seems to be to make the official TSP turn on its non state actors.
To make it credible they have to know its will be much much worse if they dont take action. And once they do it has its own dynamic.

Parkaalam as Kamaraj would say, lets see how this pans out.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Dec 2008 23:06

Salient features of proposed NIA

Salient features of the proposed NIA
New Delhi (PTI): Following are the salient features of the proposed National Investigation Agency (NIA):

* The Bill for constitution of the NIA to be applicable to whole of India, citizens of India outside India and persons on ships and aircraft registered in India;

* Officers of the NIA to have all powers, privileges and liabilities which the police officers have in connection with investigation of any offence;

* The police officer in charge of a police station on receipt of the report of the offence shall forward it to the state government which in turn will send it to the Centre. If the Centre feels the offence is terror related, it shall direct the NIA for investigation;

* Provision for transfer of investigation and trial of offences to the state government with the Centre's prior approval;

* NIA may investigate other offences connected with terror-related offences;

* A state government shall extend all assistance to NIA for investigation of terror-related offences;

* Provisions of the Act with regard to investigation shall not affect powers of the state government to investigate and prosecute any terror crime or other offences;

* Centre shall constitute Special Courts for trial of terror-related offences;

* Special Courts may sit at any place for any of its proceedings;

* For speedy and fair trial, the Supreme Court may transfer any case pending with the Special Court to another Special Court in the same state or any other state, and the High Court may transfer such cases to any other Special Court within the state.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Dec 2008 23:18

how does NIA applies for kasab?

and how are they going to apprehend those criminals with fake ids, and working for high profile syndicates and intelligence wings.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 17 Dec 2008 00:04

narayanan wrote:Nihat, there is no substitute for real, painstaking, intelligent investigation, and real proof, if crime is to be deterred. Respect for the law cannot be won through beatings and twirled moustaches and bullying, it has to be won through the realization that the Law is fair and fairly enforced, and that crime leads to swift and certain punishment. This requires intelligence, training, professionalism, and independence from interference. It needs high pay for people smart enough to really solve crimes, and brave enough to put their lives on the line.

The politicians are trying to get around all these with these "TOUGH" laws, and the citizenry are blindly following them, rather than demand real reforms and real competence, and paying for those reforms with real money. The net result will be a huge degradation of whatever makes India different from Pakistan. Already the degradation has occurred to a very large extent, but fortunately Pakistan has been sliding downhill even faster.

The state of Indian law enforcement is shocking, disgusting, whatever adjectives you want to apply. The system survives in some form only because of the heart-rending dedication and heroism of people committed to law enforcement. But the citizenry are completely unappreciative of this, and really don't deserve any of this dedication.

If it were up to me, I would completely relax all needless rules and laws, but I would make very sure that the necessary ones are enforced. Like tax collection, traffic rules, rules against possessing weapons, rules governing visas.

The key point which tells me that the proposed "non-POTA" is stupid, is the item where it says the onus of proof is being shifted to the defendant. There is no way to defend this, and there is no way that this will not result in innocents being incarcerated indefinitely, and innocent lives destroyed, and more hate generated. This one item can result in the disintegration of India.

Any politician who votes for that, should be arrested under it, like what was done to the inventor of La Guillotine. Rationalizations don't work for this sort of nonsense. But of course, all I know of the precise text of this "law" is what I read in the Indian Express, and that MAY be DDM nonsense. However, this issue is so important that Indians should be alert for once, and not let anything remotely like that ever get passed by these conniving ******s in Dilli.

Narayan Sir , you are right in saying that the buck does not stop with the Law , it stops with the actual investigation and enforcement. I too feel sorry for the average policeman who is paid shambles for his service , armed with a stick or a WW 2 royal enfield rifle and asked to show bravery in the face of AK-56 used by local gangsters and terrorists.

Law makes only the top 15 % of what is needed in our country , The NIA I believe will only be effective if it covers the following

**Reporting and daily breifing for only the PM on matters of intelligence and internal security , only the PM decides whom to include in this breifing.

**Sweeping powers to cut across all state lines and take charge of any Internal security issue it deems fit , dismissing the state from investigation if it deams it was incompetant and lax

**NIA orders to states will be complete and states would have an immediate compulsion to share intelligence and hand over charge to NIA is necessary.

** A special SWAT team under the NIA and NSG under their control too , armed with the latest weapons and forensic tools , even though it would take months to train such a force , it would be worth it.

Also the point where onus lies with accused can work if the requirement of it is that the police have to present a comprehensive case beforehand in the special terror courts and then it becomes the onus of defendant to prove his innocence.

The phrase Innocent until proven guilty be changed to Suspected until proven guilty.

ezra · Post by **ezra** » 17 Dec 2008 00:18

According to Zardari the Mumbai terrorist attacks were committed by "Gunmen" who are 'Stateless Actors"... not Stateless Terrorist. The last time I checked the word actor refers to one who performs in a play or movie!

His use of the term appears as if it was coined "off the cuff", but I am doubtful of that being the case. I believe his use of the phrase was actually brainstormed and should be challenged.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 17 Dec 2008 00:36

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081207/pl ... 1207214655

Pakis are just repeating what the US SOS said (link above).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Dec 2008 00:44

"Stateless" or "non-State" means that these yahoos did not have state backing or sponsorship. Prez Z is turning that around to imply that they did not come from the State of Pakistan. I think his statements are meant for Pakistani consumption - something that was repeated by Pakistanis just after the incidence too (that these guys are from India itself). BUT, now with mounting evidence that these terrorists are from Pakistan the damage control will get into gear to prevent any relationship with the State of Pakistan. (That proof cannot be given to Pakis - since that will reveal Indian/US methods to snoop.)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Dec 2008 03:50

Kerry says Pakistan 'sincere' in Mumbai crackdown

"I know that more people have been detained than India is aware of," Kerry {wow .. wow.. wow. yeh sab kis keliye?}

>>>>>>>>>
Kerry said it was "a fact" that Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence was involved in creating the group, which has at times fought openly alongside Pakistani soldiers in Kashmir.

"I believe they are sincere," Kerry said.

He said Pakistan had made a choice that it is "on the side of civilized behavior and democracy."

"We're not going to provide help without a firm understanding of the rules of the road" in dealing with militants, Kerry said. "The time has come to put that choice to the test and I think the (Pakistani) government has understood that."

<<<<<<<<<

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Dec 2008 03:54

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 848228.cms

We'll create our own anti-terror mechanism: Tata
17 Dec 2008, 0041 hrs IST, TNN

Only in India.

MUMBAI: Expressing lack of faith in the system to protect his property, Ratan Tata, chairman of Tata Sons, whose group owns the Taj chain chain of hotels, said on Tuesday that he was planning to set up his own anti-terror mechanism to protect his people and assets.

``We have decided that we will now look at anti-terrorism or protection of our assets and our people ourselves and we will try to create a deterrent. We will not try to create heroes who will engage in the enemy but to try and find as many invisible forms of deterring this, containing them or thwarting their efforts and that's what we are engaged in doing and we will seek external expertise to help us set it up," he said on Tuesday.

According to Tata, when the firing at the Taj Hotel took place, for a period of time there was a view that it was a gang war and that the local police were to deal with it.

``In the Taj, the first contingent of policemen came with three policemen. They were ill-equipped to handle them, in fact one of them got killed, the other got shot badly and one remains. The naval seals or commandos were there a couple of hours later. But we had to go through the state machinery to get it and that took time. So it was just not coordinated and easily accessible," Tata told CNN-IBN.

``You have to accept that you cannot just constantly react to something after it takes place. You have got to look at creating a deterrent and that starts with good intelligence and sustained intelligence. It starts with the ability to put into action a plan that deals closes of the airport, everyone knows what they are supposed to do rather than think on your feet after the event. It calls for mechanisms to make that happen," said Tata.

According to Tata, the question of leadership comes from the fact that there has to be leadership in knowing what to do. "The Fire Department didnt know what to do. The commandos came too late. The police were not equipped to engage. There didnt seem to be means of getting reinforcements. So all in all, there was an issue of not having a single leader. "

MMS jaggo.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Dec 2008 03:57

OK, the other leader is waking up. State actor talks of non-state actors:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Non- ... 844902.cms

Non-state actors on Pak soil our responsibility: Zardari
16 Dec 2008, 1130 hrs IST, IANS

Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari has accepted that non-state actors were his responsibility and said nobody will be allowed to use Pakistani soil for any form of aggression toward any friend or foe. ( Watch )

"Yes, definitely. I do not shrug away from that position," he told Newsweek magazine in an interview when reminded that US Secretary of Condoleezza Rice had said that non-state actors on Pakistani soil were still its responsibility. "Anybody from my soil is my responsibility."

When told that many times earlier Pakistani leaders had said they would do something about Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) that India has blamed for the Mumbai terror attacks, but never actually took action, Zardari said: "That is not us."

Asked if Pakistan was going to take any concrete steps to crack down on LeT, Zardari said: "Things have been done. One step is we have started combing the whole region for all non-state actors and we have made certain arrests."

"We will not allow anybody to have the capability to perform such acts," he said when asked if Pakistan can shut the LeT down and prevent training on Pakistani soil. "Nobody will be allowed to use Pakistan soil for any form of aggression toward any friend or foe."

Asked about Rice's demand that Pakistan do something about the Mumbai attacks, Zardari said: "She is a friend and she knows Pakistan is a responsible state, and the Americans and the British know how much my government has done for this operation... against the terrorists since we've been in government."

"I don't have any specific information to that effect because the Indians have given us very little information," he said when asked about reports that all of the terrorists were trained in Pakistan.

"I have offered to the Indians that we will do a joint investigation into this Mumbai incident and if it leads anywhere, we will take action."

Asked if the terrorists were trained in Pakistan, does it not have to do something, Zardari said: "Definitely. Not for them, it's for myself... The Indians must understand that the government and the people of Pakistan are net losers of the situation. We had put in a lot of effort... to make good relations with India."

On India's demand to send it accused people to bring to justice, he said: "We don't have that kind of relationship yet. America and Pakistan have hardly gotten to the position where we can interact and exchange information."

Zardari said Pakistan would not send anyone to India. "No, that is a decision to be made by the parliament and not by the president."

Zardari admitted that Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency had links with LeT in the past but claimed "things have changed to a great extent".

"We are talking about an age-old situation. This is something (that happened) in the old days when dictators used to run the country. Maybe before 9/11, that may have been a position. Since then, things have changed to a great extent," he said.

"There is no supportive interaction with our intelligence (agencies) and the LeT. Lashkar-e-Taiba happens to be a banned organization in Pakistan," Zardari said when asked about charges that Lashkar is operating with the help of ISI now, not in the past.

Zardari also admitted that LeT may have been used in Kashmir by the Pakistani Army to fight India before he came to office but claimed things have changed.

"That may have been the situation then, but things have changed. Lashkar-e-Taiba has been banned," he said. "Of course, these non-state actors keep re-emerging in different forms. Whenever there is actionable intelligence, we move in before anyone else does."

On reports that Rice had asked Pakistan to arrest a former ISI chief, Gen. Hamid Gul, who is allegedly tied up with the Taliban and al-Qaida, he said: "Hamid Gul is an actor who is definitely not in our good books. Hamid Gul is somebody who was never appreciated by our government."

But Rice "did not go into specifics, if I may share that with you", Zardari added. "He (Gul) has not been accused in the Mumbai incident... I think he is more of a political ideologue of terror rather than a physical supporter."

On reports that US intelligence has evidence of ISI's involvement in the July bombing of the Indian Embassy in Kabul, he said: "No, we have not had that intimation from the Americans. I totally deny that. We had nothing to do with the Kabul bombing. Again, these are non-state actors."

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Dec 2008 03:58

India shouldn't rule out military option: former army chief

IANS
First Published : 16 Dec 2008 10:41:32 PM IST
Last Updated : 16 Dec 2008 10:43:26 PM IST

NEW DELHI: With Pakistan in the denial mode in the wake of the Mumbai attacks, former Indian Army chief General V P Malik Tuesday advised the government to keep the military option open and former national security adviser Brajesh Mishra suggested that New Delhi should persuade Washington to cut off aid to the Pakistani Army.

"We should not say we are ruling out the military option. At least, there should not have been a public statement," Malik said at a discussion on India's options vis-à-vis Pakistan in the wake of the Mumbai attacks.

He was referring to Defence Minister A K Antony's remarks Tuesday ruling out the military option.

"Like the Kabul attacks, the ISI had a hand in the Mumbai attacks. The ISI is the creation of the Pakistani Army," he said while underlining that the Mumbai attacks could not have happened without "official conspiracy or complicity".

Malik, however, said that before considering military action the government has to hold a "politico-military discussion" and forge "political consensus" to ensure that the military action hurts the Pakistan government without dragging India into a nuclear war or ground war with Pakistan.

According to Malik, the military option could consist of air strikes on terror camps without collateral damage and commando raids on military installations close to the border. India may also consider a naval blockade that will hurt Pakistan's economy and affect supplies for NATO troops, generating international pressure on Pakistan in the process, he said.

The success of the military action will depend on how the Indian government manages international opinion, he said. Such a limited confrontation for which India has the capability will convey a strong warning to Pakistan, he said.

Former prime minister I K Gujral, however, struck a cautious note saying that it should not be forgetten that both India and Pakistan are nuclear powers. Recalling his conversation with former US ambassador to Pakistan Robert Oakley,
he said the American envoy told him that Pakistan would use nuclear weapons against India as its first and last option in a case of war.

The diplomatic options, according to Malik, will include putting international pressure on Pakistan to bring the ISI under civilian control and keeping "minimal engagement with Pakistan" by putting a "freeze" on any new confidence-building measures.

Mishra agreed with Malik about bringing the ISI under civilian control, but took the argument a step further saying Pakistan's military should be reined in as the ISI was its creation.

"There are options available which can make the US, the UK and other major powers look at the problem from the point of view of India," Mishra said while advocating a more focused approach to bringing meaningful international pressure on Pakistan that will force it to dismantle terrorist infrastructure.

"Unless their strategy is affected by your action, they will not act in your favour," he said.

"If you want the Pakistani Army to give up jihadi groups, you have to apply material pressure on them. They can't survive without support of the US," he stressed.

Alluding to the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan, Mishra said that the US must be made to realise that Pakistan wants the Taliban to succeed in Afghanistan. "If it goes on like this, there could be a division of Pakistan and Afghanistan," he said.
Former foreign minister Jaswant Singh linked up terrorism in South Asia with the failure of the US policy in the region.

"The Taliban was a creation of the US. It was established by Pakistani Army with the assistance of the US," Singh said. "The consequences of their policies are being felt in the region. We are paying the price for it," he said.

so we are paying any price for electing such parliamentarians..

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 17 Dec 2008 15:48

There are, as far as I can tell, two visible things that have happened, that can be understood as Indian Responses:

(1) All private 5 Star Hotels in Delhi (don't know about other cities) are now doing a three-step security check. The cars are opened up, boot and bonnet and security (still unarmed) stares inside. To go inside the hotel, you have to pass through a Airport Style Detector (then, frisked if there is any beep). Once inside, it is normal. If anyone goes to CP, one will see that there are long lines outside the Lalit because of cars waiting to get inside. I think 5-star hotels will be okay, except if 10 coked-up muslim terrorists show up with Automatic weapons, there is no armed response from within the hotel premises.

(2) The Security checks inside Domestic and International Airports is very comprehensive.

That's about it.

If even now, a terrorist decides to get a AK-47 with a bunch of magazines, and wants to kill say, 100-300 people in cold blood - just go to the Paharganj entrance of New Delhi Railway station (which is chaos at the best of times), and they will meet with little or no opposition. Similarly, one can still easily put bombs in dustbins of crowded markets like Lajpat Nagar, Sarojini Nagar, Karol Bagh etc. Or place a Bomb inside a DTC or Blue Line Bus. Nothing can prevent that, at least for now.

The domestic laws...which, if and when passed, will only serve to control the local sympathisers of the Islamic Terrorists. It cannot prevent terrorism from happening in the first place, because the GOI (or even the opposition, which comes across as more confused than ever) does not have a strategy to deal with Pakistan. Or to come to an agreement that *Islamic* Terrorism is a problem. This is not a secularism type of debate.

The Parliamentary debates on the new Anti-Terror Law (with Kapil Sibal mocking Advani and reminding BJP of Delhi Defeat) were in a way a reminder that the Indian people deserve what they get. There is no punishment for being soft on terror.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Dec 2008 19:57

The whole issue is getting complicated because GOI doesnt want to acknowldege that this was not just a terrorist attack but a state sponsored commando attack using irregulars. Those measures will tackle lone or isolated terrorists but not commando attacks. To deter commando attacks its the GOI responsibility. Tata's measures will provide some proximate security but will not stave of commando attacks from TSP.

Someon laughed when John Snow said its like Guns of navarone. In fac it was like Guns of navarone from the hijacked fishing boat to the last terrorist killed.

In other words it was commando attack being confused with terrorist attack. When SIMI activists do something its a terrorists attack. When TSP uses L-e-T irregualrs to provide plausibe deniablity its a commando attack by an enemy nation.

AR Atulay can defend his SIMIans but when he defends extra-national terrorists, he is succumbing to ummah feelings, and should leave the Cabinet for he cant be inside the govt with tenderness for foreign terrorists

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 17 Dec 2008 20:04

Okay folks can't we close this thread now? I have waited enough for the great yindian non response to terrorism and it now literally pains every time I see this thread.

On a serious note, the 'military action not an option' news is coming too thick and too fast from various sources in GOI over the past few days. Is something cooking?