Indian Response to Terrorism

samuel.chandra · Post by **samuel.chandra** » 27 Dec 2008 09:59

Straight talk express : Modi. We need a Modi kind PM to correct years of pacifism.

Very clear vision on how to tackle terror.

http://www.petitiononline.com/MUMx2611/petition.html
This petition goes out every weekend to political parties & media.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 27 Dec 2008 10:31

shyamd wrote:My paki friend keeps asking me, why India hasn't sent evidence to Pak and Interpol. I told him interpol is a joke. But don't have answer for why India hasn't sent pak evidence, I told him I don't know, maybe still gathering evidence.

You don't give evidence of rape to rapist.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2008 11:13

samuel.chandra wrote:Straight talk express : Modi. We need a Modi kind PM to correct years of pacifism.

We will need many Modis over many decades to build up our capability to take on an armed Pakistan that is 25% of India's size but has armed forces approximately equal to what india has - assuming that 33% of our forces are kept in reserve for the chinklizard

Pakistan may have overspent on its military, but we have underspent on an establishment that cannot be shored up overnight with straw and feathers.

And yes - let us reduce the salaries of the armed forces - having decided that they will not be increase on par with our other capable government servants.

Ramesh · Post by **Ramesh** » 27 Dec 2008 12:34

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/27m ... ocracy.htm

The two new laws will increase the alienation of Muslims from the Indian State given that they have been the principal victims of India's recent anti-terrorism strategy. Many Muslims are also distressed at the alacrity with which the laws were passed -- in contrast with the UPA's failure to enact the promised law to punish communal violence and hate crimes.

Ladies and gentlemen, Here comes the charge of WKK brigade......

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 27 Dec 2008 16:46

Meanwhile......

* Rocket kills children as Gaza border reopens.
A rocket fired by Palestinian militants fell on a Gaza home and killed two children, Palestinian sources said Friday, the same day Israel opened three Gaza border crossings for the first time in 10 days.
A third child was in critical condition. The children, all girls, were cousins -- the two who died were 7 and 12, and the injured child is 5, Hamas security and Palestinian medical sources said.

The rocket struck a house north of Gaza City.

And within a few hours..

Scores killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza
Israeli aircraft launch air attacks across Gaza, killing at least 100 people, including the Hamas police chief, according to Israeli and Palestinian sources. The Israel Defense Forces said Israeli aircraft attacked "a series of Hamas targets and infrastructure facilities." Israeli aircraft launched air attacks across Gaza Saturday, killing at least 100 people, including the Hamas police chief, according to Israeli and Palestinian sources.

Palestinian medical sources said 250 people were also wounded.

A statement from the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said Israeli aircraft attacked "a series of Hamas targets and infrastructure facilities."

"Many killed and many injured," a Gaza-based reporter said. "People are running in the streets."

The reporter, who is not being named for safety reasons, said the attacks, which are hitting across Gaza, appeared to be the biggest he had seen in his decades there.

Video from the scene showed severely wounded people being loaded into cars and driven to hospitals.
"The Air Force activity came as a result of the continuation of terror activity by Hamas terror organization from the Gaza Strip, and the duration of rocket launching and targeting Israeli civilians," the IDF statement said.

The IDF said the targets "include Hamas terror operatives that operated from the organization's headquarters, training camps and weaponry storage warehouses."

"The IDF will continue its operations against terror in accordance with constant state assessments held be the IDF Chief of General Staff. This operation will be continued, expanded and intensified as much as will be required," the IDF said.

A tenuous six-month truce between the Hamas government in Gaza and Israel expired a week ago. Under the Egyptian-brokered deal, Hamas agreed to end militant attacks on Israel from Gaza, and Israel agreed to halt raids inside the territory and ease its blockade on humanitarian goods.

In reality, the truce had started breaking down two months ago.

Rocket attacks by militants became more frequent, and Israel resumed airstrikes inside Gaza.

Since then, dozens of rockets have been fired by Palestinian militants into Israel.

While in the Capital of the World's Newest SuperPower, a mere 30 days since 190 people were brutalized to death by Paki terrorists ....

India has criticized Islamabad for not doing enough to counter terrorism, and it has accused elements within the Pakistan government and military of complicity in fueling terrorism in the region. In the Indian capital of New Delhi on Friday, three military chiefs briefed Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on the security situation.

An Indian officer said Indian soldiers have spotted Pakistani troop movements along the Line of Control in Kashmir. The Line of Control divides the disputed region between the area controlled by India and the area administered by Pakistan.

Indian defense spokesman Sitanshu Kar said India isn't carrying out a troop buildup along its western borders but "is monitoring the situation closely." He also said he is "not aware" of military reports about Pakistani troop mobilization along the Indian border.
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"But we are keeping a vigil," Kar said.

More on the Tough Indian Reaction:
India denies troop build-up along border with Pak

Rezaul H Laskar in Islamabad | PTI | December 27, 2008 | 14:46 IST

India has informed Pakistan that it has not engaged in any sort of troop build-up along the frontier and sought firm action against terrorist camps and groups operating from the Pakistani soil. New Delhi has also told Islamabad that it has no plans for a military action, but wanted a combination of 'executive action and judicial processes' against terrorist elements like the Lashker-e-Tayiba and its front organisation Jamaat-ud-Dawah, which have been linked to the Mumbai attacks. Oooooooooo!!!!

This message was conveyed during Indian High Commissioner Satyabrata Pal's meeting with Pakistan's Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir in Islamabad on Friday. Indian Deputy High Commissioner Manpreet Vohra was also present, diplomatic sources said.
The Pakistani side said any surgical strike by India in response to the Mumbai terror attacks would be seen as an 'act of war'. To this, the Indian officials stated that there was 'no reason for the war hysteria' being witnessed in Pakistan, the sources told PTI.

The Indian officials made it clear that there had been no build-up of troops along the Pakistan frontier and that New Delhi had no plans for military action, the sources said.

The Indian side also conveyed the message that 'words and commitments' were not adequate in the wake of the Mumbai terror attacks, which was 'just a symptom of the larger problem' of terrorists operating from the Pakistani soil, the sources said.

'Villages along border not being evacuated'

"There is a need for firm action against such elements. We don't see the shutting down of terrorist camps. Armed terrorists with guns are still moving around and terrorist camps are still operational," a source said.

The shutting down of terrorist camps, including the JuD complex in Murdike near Lahore and terrorist facilities in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, required executive action. This would also be in compliance with the UN Security Council resolution seeking action against militant and terrorist groups linked to the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, the sources said.

Foreign Office spokesman Mohammad Sadiq said on Friday that Bashir had told the Indian High Commissioner that there was a need for steps by India to defuse tensions. Sadiq also said Pakistan is awaiting India's response to proposals for dealing with the fallout of the Mumbai incident.

These proposals include the setting up of a joint investigative commission led by the National Security Advisors of the two countries to probe the Mumbai attacks and sending a high-level delegation led by Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi to New Delhi to discuss the sharing of evidence.

However, diplomatic sources indicated that India would wait for more action against militants by Pakistan before responding to these proposals.

Meanwhile, analysts believe the partial pullout of Pakistani troops from the tribal areas is a signal to the US that Islamabad may withdraw its troops from NWFP for deployment along the Indian border if Washington fails to play a role in defusing regional tensions.

India has blamed Pakistan-based elements, including the LeT, for the Mumbai attacks. It has asked Pakistan to act against these elements and to deliver on past commitments to not allow terrorists to operate from its soil.
Pakistan has said it is waiting for India to provide evidence and information to push forward its own investigation into the Mumbai incident.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Dec 2008 17:20

Miserable,simlpy miserable,India's response after 26/11.OK,no one wants war,but there are other ways of showing the anger and rage of the nation,thirsting for justice and revenge.At least strong diplomatic measures could've been taken.As for evidence,India has allowed in an unprecedented move,FBI officials to interrogate the captured pig.What has the US done to armtwist Pak after having access to all the evidence,captured pig,sat-phones,inercepts,weaponry,bodies of roasted pigs with DNA samples also taken,etc.? Simply put the US has betrayed India.PM Man Mohan Singh,"lover" of George Bush,appars shellshocked after 26/11.He has done nothing to allay the fears of ordinary Indians of Pak's terrorism,and has completely retreated into his shell like a tortoise.It was a great mistake on my part ever to have labelled him "Sub-Inspector" or "Constable",these ranks of policemen did yeoman service in discharging their duty,unarmed with only lathis and .303s when facing the pigs with their grenades and Kalashnikovs.Pranab Mukherjee manfully drones on in long winded displays of little more than annoyance towards Pak! Is there none in this administration who can emulate Chairman Mao who used to say that "a loud fart is better than a long speech".The time for long winded speeches against Pak is over.If this govt. has any self respect it should now act,diplomatically at least by breaking realtions with Pak, if it hasn't the guts like the Israelis to go after those who kill their countrymen and women.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 27 Dec 2008 17:33

Time to change the thread's name : " India Welcomes Terrorism "
We all know GOI is full of patriots who are destroying it quietly,calmly and authoritatively.The politicians who side with street gundas and underworld to claim power, how will they fight terrorists?I think , after the assasination of Rajeev Gandhi, all these politicians are hell terrified of terrorists and saving their own backside.Now the point is, what are the armed forces doing?They too seem to be too bogged down in their cut in the defence deals than protecting the countrymen.How come the indian armed forces are so weak that they can't put their dunda in MMS @$$ and ask him for action?
Bottomline is , now the aam aadmi has to fight this menace on his own .Question is , how?

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 27 Dec 2008 18:05

70% of Indian population is below the age of 30. I just dont understand y cant we have a young leader like Obama. Whom we think can bring in the CHANGE we need. How can we expect gutsy action from ball-less oldies. People like Auntulay and Kerela CM and ex-Maha Deputy CM, are ruling the youth. Cant our mainstream youth spare some time from new Akshay hip-hop song and go for a political carnage of the oldies. I blame myself too for this, I am feeling India as a busty lazy elephant, whom a porki jackel comes and bite anytime, and we try to sniff it away by phissy farts. Yes our response to terrorism is just like that, and unless and until i dont see a young person with a new party in 10 Janpath, its going to be same old phissssssssss.....

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 27 Dec 2008 18:19

Update: Gaza death toll up to 155...including several officials of the regime. So much for "non-state actors". Message is:

You tolerate/ support terrorism against us, you die and your shelters are turned to rubble

But note that this does not actually END terrorism, just keeps the price high, and establishes that there is always payback.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Dec 2008 18:25

70% of Indian population is below the age of 30. I just dont understand y cant we have a young leader like Obama. Whom we think can bring in the CHANGE we need. How can we expect gutsy action from ball-less oldies. People like Auntulay and Kerela CM and ex-Maha Deputy CM, are ruling the youth. Cant our mainstream youth spare some time from new Akshay hip-hop song and go for a political carnage of the oldies. I blame myself too for this, I am feeling India as a busty lazy elephant, whom a porki jackel comes and bite anytime, and we try to sniff it away by phissy farts. Yes our response to terrorism is just like that, and unless and until i dont see a young person with a new party in 10 Janpath, its going to be same old phissssssssss.....

You have answered yourself - 18-30 years vote in various elections - assuming uniform proportions that makes roughly 35% voters below 30. That is a significant swing vote factor given rates of turnouts. Appears to have no effect isn't it? It is not because of age, my friend, ball-lessness does not depend on age. It is probably a case of premature ejaculation versus erectile dysfunction. The main principle should be the correct mental attitude - an iron will and vision, no matter which age it comes from. It is not appropriate to denigrate both a dignified animal and a country at the same time. We all belong to this "busty lazy elephant" - every time I leave India for professional reasons, I touch the dust of my land before going into the plane, and I cannot help "watering my eyes" when I retouch it back. Bash away at Indians who disappoint you, but you can never have the right response to terrorism if you cannot feel that regard and dignity for the land that has nurtured you and given you your identity.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 27 Dec 2008 18:34

This was Vishnu's conversation on NDTV yesterday.
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/st ... 58:00%20AM

Debunking military options against Pak
NDTV Correspondent
Saturday, December 27, 2008, (New Delhi)
For the last several days, there has been talk of how the Indo-Pak impasse after the Mumbai terror strikes could pave the way for military strikes on terror hubs in Pakistan.

But the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have proven that conventional military strikes cannot defeat a determined terrorist force. In the current situation in the subcontinent a military option may achieve very little.

India's frontline fighters are armed with laser-guided bombs. Those are bombs that can strike a target with pinpoint accuracy. But while that can be used to target structures how can bombs eliminate terrorist groups who could be expecting such strikes and may well have dispersed from their terrorist camps.

Is the government prepared to launch air strikes on the territory of a country which is armed with nuclear weapons and where there is no clarity on who controls the weapons, civilians or the military?

In the event of a Pakistani counter-attack, which is entirely expected, a battle to target terrorists could well turn into a full-scale war between India and Pakistan. That would be fought using tanks, warships and fighter aircraft. How would that thwart terrorism?

Is it in India's interests to fight an army which is otherwise occupied in containing terrorism on the Afghanistan front? {Wow... who's bidding is this? How does it help India that Paki Army is in double game with terrorists, whom it abets, fosters and trains for its objective}

Even if India prepares for war it would take more than a month to have its defences in place on the Western front which requires massive mobilisation. That has not happened.

Economically, a war between India and Pakistan, even for a period of 2 or 3 weeks would cost thousands of crores. This would damage the foreign investment climate and affect GDP growth. {How many crores are lost on Terrorist attacks. Now we are not going to protect cheap Indian lives so that rich guys like you don't suffer economic loss. This is just pathetic}

Perhaps the biggest concern for India is the game of brinkmanship being played out. There is a danger that Pakistani forces could provoke an Indian reaction and thereby deflect from the real issue of terrorism emanating from its soil. That could be done through massive artillery shelling in areas along the Line of Control or in areas such as Siachen and engaging Indian helicopters or aircraft operating close to the Line of Control or international border with missiles or gunfire.

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 27 Dec 2008 18:44

brihaspati wrote:
70% of Indian population is below the age of 30. I just dont understand y cant we have a young leader like Obama. Whom we think can bring in the CHANGE we need. How can we expect gutsy action from ball-less oldies. People like Auntulay and Kerela CM and ex-Maha Deputy CM, are ruling the youth. Cant our mainstream youth spare some time from new Akshay hip-hop song and go for a political carnage of the oldies. I blame myself too for this, I am feeling India as a busty lazy elephant, whom a porki jackel comes and bite anytime, and we try to sniff it away by phissy farts. Yes our response to terrorism is just like that, and unless and until i dont see a young person with a new party in 10 Janpath, its going to be same old phissssssssss.....
You have answered yourself - 18-30 years vote in various elections - assuming uniform proportions that makes roughly 35% voters below 30. That is a significant swing vote factor given rates of turnouts. Appears to have no effect isn't it? It is not because of age, my friend, ball-lessness does not depend on age. It is probably a case of premature ejaculation versus erectile dysfunction. The main principle should be the correct mental attitude - an iron will and vision, no matter which age it comes from. It is not appropriate to denigrate both a dignified animal and a country at the same time. We all belong to this "busty lazy elephant" - every time I leave India for professional reasons, I touch the dust of my land before going into the plane, and I cannot help "watering my eyes" when I retouch it back. Bash away at Indians who disappoint you, but you can never have the right response to terrorism if you cannot feel that regard and dignity for the land that has nurtured you and given you your identity.

If I feel so much bad about our country's dismal response, then it's only because I love my country too, as you do. And I am sorry for my comparison, but i am feeling frustrated because of those people in power and those who bring them to power. Can't we all BRFs join and start and political party?????? And if anyone's answer is no, then we cant blame anybody, but ourselves for this condition of ours.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 27 Dec 2008 19:00

Wait for the MMS clown to declare another Chai-Biskoot session and start talking with Pakis.
I believe Uncle is pushing MMS to talk with Pakis, hence the recent emissary from KSA and talk with Lizard.
The talks will be held at KSA and it will constitute a global body to look into terrorism. India will be asked to provide evidence on how it was raped by Paki Jihadis. Global community will have

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2008 19:01

Akshut wrote:70% of Indian population is below the age of 30. I just dont understand y cant we have a young leader like Obama.

With respect - I betcha you live in America. The US is exactly like Pakistan and people in the US believe that a new leader will change everything for the better.

I have personally observed that happen in the US through Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush and now ho hum everyone is talking like Obama will do something great. He won't but that is a diversion.

A person who is 60 thinks like he did when he was 30. That never changes. Only experience increases. And by the time gains power through normal channels - he is 50.

But India is lucky. We will soon have Rahul Gandhi. No need to go through proper channels

Rejoice.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Dec 2008 19:04

I think that at voting time next year, we have to be very careful and choose in this crisis the party/politicians who are patriotic and put the nation before themselves.At times like these we need mentally tough leaders who are not afraid of striking at evil if deemed neccessary.Look at how Israel is treating Hamas? Warnings given,no response-more rockets and "blam!",the Israelis strike in style! Here,all we get are longwinded mouthings from ancient leaders who have one foot in the grave.By the time they have completed their daily bowel movements another terror attack would've taken place!

Therefore we must choose wisely,that's the most that we can do right now.The need for a new party for India that reignites the spirit and valour of a Subhas Chandra Bose is sorely needed.Perhaps a "New Indian national Army",or suchlike.Whatever the name,I'm sure that if a few eminent personalities who have clean reputations stand up and organise themselves across the country,miracles can happen.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 27 Dec 2008 19:08

NDTV is working for its Masters... now Barkha 'I Killed Sabina' Dutt

Why war isn’t an option

I just got an email from a friend in Pakistan. He had written just five words: do something; stop this war. War? I wrote back arguing that there was no war to run scared from and that the illusion of an imminent catastrophe had been manufactured on the other side. Our dialogue collapsed in a dead-end, which may work well for TV talk but not in real life. Most Pakistanis I have been speaking to in the last one month are convinced that the

Indians are coming. And most Indians, with the inarticulateness that comes with rage, want the government to “do something”. We just aren’t sure what that “something” can or should be.

We are frustrated and angry that even a month after the Bombay attacks, there is no tangible shift in the way Islamabad is respo-nding. If anything, things have only got worse. Even the UN-pushed crackdown on the Jamaat-ud-Dawa (the ideolo-gical launchpad and political front of the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba) has turned out to be cosmetic. And Masood Azhar — the terrorist who walked free in exchange for the safety of the IC-814 passengers — has vanished, after being declared under house arrest. The flip-flops are brazen enough to destroy diplomacy.

And yet, the truth — painful as it may be to families who have suffered directly in the Bombay attacks — is this: war is not an option; it is neither practical nor desirable. First, there are the commonsensical reasons to rule it out. A military conflict will not manage to eliminate the seeds of terrorism that are sown deep into the subsoil of Pakistan’s strategic architecture. Washington cannot be treated as the automatic deterrent to nuclear conflict; the stakes are too high, the game too risky. A civilian establishment that does not trust its own institutions to investigate the assassination of Benazir Bhutto (the centrepiece of the PPP’s election campaign was the promise of a UN probe) will hardly be able to control rogue players with a mind of their own, in case of a war. Even surgical strikes (bound to escalate into a full-blown conflict) don’t have ready targets to plan with. Terror camps can be swiftly dismantled and resurrected at new locations once the conflict is over. A military conflict does not even guarantee that the Indian forces can come home with Dawood Ibrahim, Hafiz Saeed or Masood Azhar. So, what would we really achieve by risking the lives of our soldiers?

But for those who dismiss all this as arguments made by the fainthearted, there’s a more compelling reason not to consider war: India would be playing straight into the hands of Pakistan’s military regime. Talk to Pakistani commentators and they agree that a war with India strengthens the Pakistan army like nothing else has or could in the past year. Some even suggest that precision air strikes by India will present a near-perfect scenario for the Pakistan military. Islamabad will retaliate without immediately risking the fatalities of on-ground conflict; Washington will jump in within days and the military will be back in the centrestage of public approval. This, in a country, where just a few months ago, General Pervez Musharraf was pushed out unceremoniously and the army was blamed for everything from the rise of the Taliban to the price of onions.

Bhutto’s tragic assassination (blamed by her own people on elements in the security establishment) was meant to usher in a political revolution. Exactly a year back, in December, I remember sitting in the Bhutto House at Larkana, and feeling goosebumps when Bilawal Bhutto announced in a trembling voice that that “democracy” would be the “best revenge” for his mother’s murder. But we have seen that democracy being whittled down systematically. Many in Pakistan believe that sections of the ISI and the Army have moved in with quiet, but brutal aggression because President Asif Ali Zardari was moving too quickly in peace talks with India. The offer of a no-first use of N-weapons; the consent to start border trade across the line of control, the attempts to reign in the ISI and the willingness (at least on paper) to investigate its role in the Kabul bombings — none of this made Zardari popular with his own security establishment. And frankly, in the last month it has become clear that neither Zardari nor Nawaz Sharif is the author of this script any longer. The refusal to send the ISI chief to India, pushing Sharif to retract his statement on Pakistani involvement in the Bombay attacks, and now the artificial war hysteria created by moving troops and flying air force jets over residential areas — all have the imprint of a larger plan — one that goes well beyond the terrorist strikes in Bombay.

By whipping up the impression of imminent war, Islamabad’s security establishment is hoping to catapult itself back into the role of saviour. It isn’t my argument that India should be overly concerned about the inner failings of Pakistan’s experiment with democracy. Our decisions should be guided by self-interest. And so we must ask, does India want to strengthen the very section of the Pakistani power structure that it sees as innately hostile to us?

Yes, the domestic mood remains one of “enough is enough.” And contrary to the rather over-imaginative understanding of some TV-bashers that this was an exhortation to war, it’s a simple, effective phrase (first used passionately by Shobhaa De) to capture the mood of a country that is no longer willing to accept a system that lets us down and fails to protect us. But before we demand quick-fix solutions on moving against Pakistan, let us ask ourselves this: are we helping India? India must now look for an unconventional solution that lies somewhere between war and peace.

Barkha Dutt is Group Editor, English News, NDTV

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 27 Dec 2008 19:22

shiv wrote:
Akshut wrote:70% of Indian population is below the age of 30. I just dont understand y cant we have a young leader like Obama.
With respect - I betcha you live in America.

Sorry Sir, I am from Himachal.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 27 Dec 2008 19:24

Response is already on. Bakistanis are soiling pants. Talibanis going to have free run. Bakistani Air farc is in panic mode.US is not that upset about Bakis pulling out troops from Afgani border.....it is going to be lot easier for them to spot talibunnies. Imagine after 2 months situation calm down and Baki army goes back to North West.......only to find that there is no North West left to go. GOI is doing the right thing.......keeping things at just right temperature. That is why no big troop movements. After few weeks of reserve and equipment wasting and teasing Bakis may decide to do harakiri which will give us pretext to go for plan B. My prdiction nothing happen until end of Jan 2009.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Dec 2008 19:34

i am feeling frustrated because of those people in power and those who bring them to power. Can't we all BRFs join and start and political party?????? And if anyone's answer is no, then we cant blame anybody, but ourselves for this condition of ours.

A political party which gives priority to the "nation" over and above everything is perhaps necessary, but it will need preparation, and should be part of a longer term comprehensive "response". At the moment we have to consider that most Indians are used to thinking in terms of various established political groups. So that you will need to prepare people for alternatives, and it takes time. On the short term, on the response front, what is realizable is of course a platform to press for certain agendas and try to bring as much pressure on the existing parties as possible to conform to this agenda.

Debunking military options against Pak

I know that many BRfites would disapprove :but I have raised this strategic issue before - why should not India join the "war against terror" from the Afghan side, specifically taking up the Pak-Taleb area sandwiched between Afghan and Pak? On the pain of repeatation, I will again list the logic:

(1) Even though this is the scenario probably hoped for by the US tacticians, to get India involved against the Al-Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghan+Pak, we can no longer pretend that by not engaging the QaedaTalebPaki we can reduce our chances of becoming targets of Islamic terror.

(2) The US in any case will push on to keep control of North-Eastern Afghanistan - as its main geopolitical thrust was to prevent Russia+China moving onto the middle east in their bid to reach the oil and tropical Indian Ocean. I would even go as far as to speculate that the second war on Iraq was actually a diversionary tactics to isolate and protect Saudi Arabia from this Sino-Russian south-western directional down-move and actually gain a forward base in the tactically significant North -east Afghanistan, where it can prevent the joining up of Sino-Russia with Iran. If India tags along with a specific strategic aim of deriving maximum geo-political advantage for its own long term plans, what is wrong with it?

(3) India, by joining the "fight against terror" will shed the political disadvantages it faces now in appearing to attack only a so-called nation, Pakistan. It will then be attacking "stateless" terror, not any particular "nation".

(4) Indian presence in the Pashtun lands bordering Pak, can be a good test of the perception that Pashtun "nationalism" is the main driving factor behind supporting the Talebs, and a "promise" of aiding in Pashtun 2nationalism" can wean them away from teh Talebs. In that case, if such a "nation" is realized, India will have a long term "friend" on its northern border (yes I mean after incorporation of Pak).

(5) Indian activity in this region, at one stroke, brings the POK, the Chitrali "non-state actors", the Talebs as well as Pakistani bases within Indian striking range. It also creates pressure on the western front, and if craefully played by India can actually split the Pak forces into two.

(6) When opportunity arises, this position can be used to surround Pakjab in a pincer coming down from north and moving up from the south from India that also cuts off entrance to the POK. This also isolates Sind and Baloch, and properly played out political declarations of support or recognition for an independent Baloch state within Pak occupied Baloch should create a good barrier of support reaching Pakjab from the South.

(7) This presence also helps in the facing up to ultimately bigger threat of China and the Chinese coming in through the Karakorums, and of India being able to create trouble in the North East of China to split the Red Army in two different widely separated war arenas when Tibet is activated simultaneously. Unless India reaches up to these forward positions, it cannot realize the strategically important goals of establishing a free Tibet (this also surrounds Nepal and cuts off supply routes to North Eastern separatists).

The only logic against this is of course our shame in being seen "falling under" US wings, and so-called increased escalation of Islamic terror-but neither of which we are now able to avoid anyway in public and international discourse. Why not take advantage of it?

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 27 Dec 2008 19:38

rsingh wrote:Response is already on.... pretext to go for plan B. My prdiction nothing happen until end of Jan 2009.

Misphortunately, you are wrong. Compared to hiding in mud forts in cold mountains, they are sitting pretty now. Remember its the same lot. Now no equipment is getting used, nor talibans to run from. The cost is the same, and uncle will keep footing the bill in the name of GOAT. come 2009 they will be rested and revived.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 27 Dec 2008 19:44

brihaspati wrote:why should not India join the "war against terror" from the Afghan side ... Why not take advantage of it?

Significant real costs, less scope for chai biscuit. Regular scrutiny of leaders by world media - often unfavorable. Chances of a goof up. Chances of Forces growing a will of its own. Logistics would likely involve Iran. No prior experience in expeditionary efforts. not sufficient men to man east, west, and remote west. Left. Left. China. Left. Lack of spine. Pakistani red lines. Do we need more reasons?

Not that I wouldn't want to see such a thing happen.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 27 Dec 2008 19:47

Foto rogue's gallery below.

Pronoun of evil

Have always admired India Today's S Prasannarajan's artistical articulation. The man outdoes himself here. India Today seems to be on a crusade here. More power to them!

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 27 Dec 2008 19:57

shiv wrote: But India is lucky. We will soon have Rahul Gandhi. No need to go through proper channels

I'm assuming you were being highly sarcastic.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 27 Dec 2008 20:35

The biggest casualty in these series of episodes is the exposure of planning (or importantly lack of) division in the Indian establishment. Be it Kalachuk to the recent torture and murder of wommen and children by the brave bakis, the Indian establishment goes back to the drawing board and starts planning all over again. Everytime an incident occurs, the clock is reset and the system is rebooted to start afresh.
Granted, every elections throws up new set of people to power, isn't it the duty of the establishment to bring them upto speed as soon as they take the reins and formulate a consistent policy.
We are building international consensus against a disease called 'pakistan'. We are 'pursuing diplomacy' as a precursor to response rings hollow.

Basically, it is repeat of Ghazni raids. Everytime, the raid occurs the establishment in India goes to the drawing board and says we are not ready yet, and let us start from a clean slate. Let us set time t=0; and rework the problem.
Credit goes to the bakis in successfully rebooting the Indian establishment and making it start scrambling from scratch. As every ruler in Bharat varsha was looking for the Islamic hordes to personally teach them lessons, they seem to go into deep slumber. Utter failure in consolidating the lessons learnt and being ready with plan of action. Looks like periennial learners to learn the same stuff over and over. Looks like a memoryless system. What a shame.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 27 Dec 2008 20:49

A response to Bakra's ridiculous article in HT (see the discuss section)...

guest5144: Barkha says war \"is neither practical nor desirable\"... That\'s like saying the sun rises in the east - a universal truth. But sometimes war is imposed. And that is what is happening. War is being imposed on us. The choice is not between war or no war. It is between fight or surrender. Because, if war is not an option to fight the Pakistani military which is creating and sustaining these monsters who killed our people, then what is? More bulletproof vests? More guns? More security measures. These are mechanisms to help fight a war better. But they do not address the issue of the Pakistani military which is sending the terrorists over. What does Barkha propose we do about them? Beg them to stop? An irrational and illogical analysis of a situation. Is she an objective journalist or an ideologue?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 27 Dec 2008 21:07

This is going to end in a war in which the Pakistani military is going to be eliminated. Our Administration is not talking war. They are trying the diplomatic option to get the 20 terrorists. If that cannot be achieved, there will not be any surgical strike as such. That's useless when the terrorists are no more in terror camps and the ones that we hit will not cause any major damage. Surgical strikes must have been done during peace time when it became clear that the terror camps are not dismantled. It will also waste our effort in hitting the real target, the real terrorists and our real enemy-the Pakistani military.

So if the Pakistani establishment don't hand over the terrorists, it must lead to the destruction of Pakistani military. It will be good for the people of India, the people of Pakistan and the politicians of Pakistan.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 27 Dec 2008 21:10

JE Menon wrote:A response to Bakra's ridiculous article in HT (see the discuss section)...

guest5144: Barkha says war \"is neither practical nor desirable\"... That\'s like saying the sun rises in the east - a universal truth. But sometimes war is imposed. And that is what is happening. War is being imposed on us. The choice is not between war or no war. It is between fight or surrender. Because, if war is not an option to fight the Pakistani military which is creating and sustaining these monsters who killed our people, then what is? More bulletproof vests? More guns? More security measures. These are mechanisms to help fight a war better. But they do not address the issue of the Pakistani military which is sending the terrorists over. What does Barkha propose we do about them? Beg them to stop? An irrational and illogical analysis of a situation. Is she an objective journalist or an ideologue?

Barkha don't know anything. She is a kid. There is only one option. The diplomatic effort. If it fails the one and only other option. Destruction of Pakistani military. That means war.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Dec 2008 21:22

sounds like only nature can destroy pakistan. soon we would realize making man made tsunamis and earthquakes are much easier than moving babooze to think.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 27 Dec 2008 21:23

We are not fighting terrorists or something of that sort. We are fighting the idea of Pakistan. Terrorism against India is something that is created by the idea of Pakistan. There is only one way out of it. Elimination of this idea. The first attempt need to be to destroy the forces that support the idea of Pakistan. The idea that causes pain suffering and death to the people of India (also to Pakistanis and people world over). The force is the Pakistani military. If you destroy it, there will not be anyone to defend the violent ideas that generate from Pakistan. The people of Pakistan will get another chance to liberate themselves and live peacefully without any imposition of restrictions by the Military. They can choose the path of progress or destruction. After this India will be safe when we keep hitting at terrorists whenever they get created in Pakistan.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 27 Dec 2008 21:29

Backpedaling furiously, now Chidambaram, says the following...

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=1 ... vsv=TopHP1

Chidambaram hopes Pak will tread the ‘right path’
Saturday, 27 December , 2008, 18:31
Last Updated: Saturday, 27 December , 2008, 18:52

Puducherry: Union Home Minister P Chidambaram on Saturday said that India is prepared to face "attacks" emanating from Pakistani soil squarely but expressed the hope that efforts of other countries to make Islamabad tread the "right path" succeed.

"The Mumbai terror attacks have awakened the world and international community is using its good offices to prevail on Pakistan to tread the right path. We hope these efforts succeed. If not, India is prepared to face the attacks from Pakistan squarely with the help of the people," he said addressing the students and faculty of Pondicherry University here.

The Minister said everyone knew from where the terror attacks emanated and the cross border terrorism from Pakistan had been targeting India continuously for some years now. It could not be denied that there were also supporters within India for such activities, he said. )".

"As far as India is concerned, we are looking at Pakistan as friendly nation as there is no need for any enmity particularly when both the countries have third generation of people after their independence," he said.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 27 Dec 2008 21:41

Arindam wrote:Backpedaling furiously, now Chidambaram, says the following...

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=1 ... vsv=TopHP1

Chidambaram hopes Pak will tread the ‘right path’
Saturday, 27 December , 2008, 18:31
Last Updated: Saturday, 27 December , 2008, 18:52

Puducherry: Union Home Minister P Chidambaram on Saturday said that India is prepared to face "attacks" emanating from Pakistani soil squarely but expressed the hope that efforts of other countries to make Islamabad tread the "right path" succeed.

"The Mumbai terror attacks have awakened the world and international community is using its good offices to prevail on Pakistan to tread the right path. We hope these efforts succeed. If not, India is prepared to face the attacks from Pakistan squarely with the help of the people," he said addressing the students and faculty of Pondicherry University here.

The Minister said everyone knew from where the terror attacks emanated and the cross border terrorism from Pakistan had been targeting India continuously for some years now. It could not be denied that there were also supporters within India for such activities, he said. )".

"As far as India is concerned, we are looking at Pakistan as friendly nation as there is no need for any enmity particularly when both the countries have third generation of people after their independence," he said.

Whether they call them friends or enemies, the government must get the terrorists. If they don't they are going to get kicked by the voters.(from the part of vote bank politics for the congress party) but as a nation we the people of India are totally dissatisfied with the present government.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 27 Dec 2008 21:45

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/world ... ml?_r=1&hp

Israeli Attack Kills Scores Across Gaza
Suhaib Salem/Reuters
Palestinians evacuated a wounded man after an Israeli air strike on Hamas compounds in Gaza on Saturday. More Photos >

By TAGHREED EL-KHODARY and ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: December 27, 2008
GAZA CITY — The Israeli Air Force on Saturday launched a massive attack on Hamas targets throughout Gaza in retaliation for the recent heavy rocket fire from the area, hitting mostly security headquarters, training compounds and weapons storage facilities, the Israeli military and witnesses said.

Suhaib Salem/Reuters
At least 140 Palestinians were killed and scores more wounded, according to the head of emergency services at the Gaza Ministry of Health. More Photos »
Dr. Muawiya Hassanein, the head of emergency services at the Gaza Ministry of Health, said that at least 195 Palestinians were killed in the Israeli air strikes.

Most of the fatalities were among members of the security forces of Hamas, the Islamic group that controls Gaza, but a few civilians were also among the dead, including children. Scores more Palestinians were wounded.

The reaction to the punishing attacks was swift and varied. A spokesman for President Bush called on Israel to avoid inflicting civilian casualties, although he did not hall for a halt to the attacks on Hamas. Egypt condemned the raid and opened its border crossing so that the wounded could be treated, and a spokesman for Javier Solana, the foreign policy chief of the European Union, condemned Israel’s action and called for an immediate halt to the strikes.

For its part, Israel said the strikes would not only continue, but that they would be intensified.

The air attack came after days of warnings by Israeli officials that Israel would retaliate for intense rocket and mortar fire against Israeli towns and villages by Hamas and other militant groups in Gaza.

On Wednesday alone, more than 60 rockets and mortars were fired, some reaching further than previously. While the rockets are meant to be deadly, and several houses and a factory were hit, sowing widespread panic, no Israelis were killed or seriously injured in the recent attacks.A shaky Egyptian-brokered truce between Israel and Hamas started to break down in early November. Hamas had originally agreed to a six-month lull, and declared it officially over when the six-month period expired on Dec. 19.

Though Israel had been threatening to end its policy of restraint that saw only limited strikes against rocket launchers and squads in recent days, the timing of the raid came as a surprise to Gazans. It came in mid-morning, when official buildings and security compounds were filled with personnel and children were at school, and not, as many had anticipated, at night.

Expecting some kind of Israeli response, the Hamas leaders in Gaza had already been in hiding for two days.

In a statement issued immediately after the raid, the Israeli military warned that “This operation will be continued, expanded and intensified as much as will be required.”

“We face a period that will be neither easy nor short, and will require determination and perseverance until the necessary change is achieved in the situation in the south,” Ehud Barak, the Israeli defense minister, said.

In Waco, Tex., where President Bush is vacationing, a White House spokesman, Gordon Johndroe, said: “Hamas must end its terrorist activities if it wishes to play a role in the future of the Palestinian people. The United States urges Israel to avoid civilian casualties as it targets Hamas in Gaza.”

President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, who was sharply critical of the Israeli attack, said in a statement, “Egypt condemns the Israeli military aggression on the Gaza Strip and blames Israel, as an occupying force, for the victims and the wounded.”

The spokesman for Mr. Solana said the European Union, “condemns the disproportionate use of force.”

At Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, scores of dead bodies were laid out in front of the morgue waiting for family members to identify them. Many were dismembered.

Inside the hospital, relatives carried a five-month old baby who had suffered a serious head wound from shrapnel. Overwhelmed, the hospital staff seemed unable to offer help.

At the Gaza City police station, at least 15 traffic police who had been training in a courtyard were killed on the spot.

Tamer Kahrouf, 24, a civilian who had been working on a construction site in Jabaliya, north of Gaza City, said he saw his two brothers and uncle killed before his eyes when the Israeli planes bombed a security post nearby. Mr. Kharouf was wounded and bleeding from the head.

Women were wailing as they searched for their relatives among the dead. Sawsan Al-Ajab, 50, was looking for two sons, aged 32 and 24, who both worked at the Gaza police station.

The Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert appealed to the Gazans to reject Hamas and the rocket launchers in an interview with the Al Arabiya Arabic satellite television station on Thursday.

But Ms. Ajab’s anger was not initially directed against Hamas.

“Egypt, the United States and Israel have agreed together to destroy Hamas,” she said.

In Israel, the authorities seemed braced for yet more rocket fire from Hamas. The Home Front Command declared a “special situation” in all communities up to 12 miles from the Gaza border, Israel Radio said. Bomb shelters in all those communities have been opened, and residents have been asked not to congregate out of doors and to remain in protected areas, the radio said.

Taghreed El-Khodary reported from Gaza City and Isabel Kershner from Jerusalem.

Just see the difference and the resolve between the two countries, India and Israel in countering "Non-State Actors"!!

What does the world say?? US does not preach to Israel to show restraint. Mind you, there were no Israeli deaths in this latest barrage of rocket attacks.

Israel doesn't whine and pathetically plead in front of the world looking for a global response.

... and the Indian response to the chronic butchery of Indians??

BSR Murthy · Post by **BSR Murthy** » 27 Dec 2008 21:55

^^^^^

For its part, Israel said the strikes would not only continue, but that they would be intensified.

Power to the countries that stand up to terror.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Dec 2008 21:57

I strongly recommend "Taking On the System: Rules for Radical Change in a Digital Era" by Markos Moulitsas Zuniga(founder of dailykos.com).

It will take a lot of adaptation for use in India. But the key ideas are there. And the very first example cited is Mahatma Gandhi's use of the newsreel.

Let me give you some of the chapter titles and sub-titles
1. The New Insurgents
Bypass the Gatekeepers/Crush the Gatekeepers/Influence the Gatekeepers
2. Mobilize
Raise an Army/Don't Wait for Authorization/Cultivate your Allies
3. Set the Narrative
Target your Villain/Craft your Hero/Exploit their Weaknesses/Reinforce the Narrative/Aim for the Gut, Not the Brain/Own the Story
4. Reinvent the Street Protest
Adapt and Innovate/Speak with One Voice/Build a Wave
5. Feed the Backlash
Embrace the Attacks/Know when to ignore an Attack/Don't bring a Spork to a Gunfight
6. Don't believe the hype
Work your Niche/Guard your credibility/Factor Reality into your plans
7. Fight Small, Win Big
Advance and Hold Enemy Ground/Pick Your Battles/Don't Cross Enemy Lines/Do What you can/Rally the Troops

You can't change the world without conflict.

Whether you want to change Capitol Hill or Capitol Records, the corporate tower or the ivory tower, conflict must precede change, because in most of the big institutions of our society, we have too many entrenched elites who refuse to give up their power without a fight.

Traditionally, these self-appointed and unaccountable gatekeepers have purported to operate in the public interest, but they are grossly out of touch with the public. Rather than empower people, they designed rules to keep the rabble out of their inner sanctums, where our ideas won't infect their decision-making process....

Only people with the proper pedigree -- rich parents, friends in high places -- were invited into the club. The value of an opinion or idea was determined by the social status of the person expressing it. Passion was considered uncouth. Youth was seen as a drawback. And the gatekeepers were stationed at the entryways to the halls of power.

Sound familiar?

All the ideology in the world is useless without the practicality to attain power.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 27 Dec 2008 22:15

Aha. Is this what our chankian Mahan Mohan Ji is planning?
(pls go to 1:44 for the uber cunning strategy)

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 27 Dec 2008 22:19

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7800329.stm

US warning on South Asia tension

Indian troops keep a close eye on the border in Rajasthan
The United States has urged India and Pakistan to avoid unnecessarily raising tension amid reports of troop movements to the border.

Pakistan has redeployed some troops from the north-west and some leave has been cancelled, army officials said.

India earlier advised its citizens against travelling to Pakistan amid the continuing tension in the wake of last month's deadly attacks in Mumbai.

The attacks on several targets in the city left more than 170 people dead.

'Close contact'

A Pakistani military spokesman called its movements a minimum defensive measure.

And a senior security official said a limited number of soldiers had been pulled out from non-essential positions on the Afghan border and areas where there were no military operations.

Pakistan is suspending some army operations against militants

Pakistani media reported that troops were strengthening some positions on the border with India.

The Line of Control in divided Kashmir and the towns of Kasur and Sialkot were areas mentioned in the reports.

Air strikes against militants in the restive Swat and Bajaur regions had been scaled down as some of the airpower had to be redeployed to the country's eastern border, a senior Pakistani military official told Asif Farooqi, the Islamabad-based correspondent of the BBC Urdu service.

There have been reports of possible forthcoming "surgical" strikes by India on the headquarters and camps of Lashkar-e-Taiba, the militant group India blames for the Mumbai attacks.

The group and Pakistan's government deny any involvement.

White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said: "We hope that both sides will avoid taking steps that will unnecessarily raise tensions during these already tense times."

He said the US remained "in close contact with both countries to urge closer co-operation in investigating the Mumbai attacks and in fighting terrorism generally".

A bomb blast in the Pakistani city of Lahore further raised tension

The BBC's Barbara Plett in Islamabad says the troop movements do not appear to be greatly significant and that both countries have said they want to avoid military conflict. However they warn they will act if provoked.

But our correspondent says any significant cut in the Pakistani military presence along the Afghan border would worry Washington, which relies on Islamabad to stem cross-border Taleban attacks on Nato forces.

India's Prime Minister Manmohan Singh discussed the Pakistan situation with his military chiefs on Friday.

The Indian foreign ministry advised Indian nationals not to travel to Pakistan following recent bombings in the Pakistani cities of Lahore and Multan.

One woman was killed and four people injured on Wednesday in Lahore.

Media reports said a number of Indians were detained although this has not been officially confirmed.

Indian foreign ministry spokesman Vishnu Prakash said in Delhi there were reports the Indians were "being accused of being terrorists".

"Indian citizens are therefore advised that it would be unsafe for them to travel or be in Pakistan."

The hypocrisy of the official US stand when compared to their statements about the Israeli strikes on Gaza as quoted in my earlier post ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Dec 2008 22:25

well pakistan as the custodian of the islamic bomb should give a few nukes to protect their palestinian brothers.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 27 Dec 2008 22:48

White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said: "We hope that both sides will avoid taking steps that will unnecessarily raise tensions during these already tense times."

He said the US remained "in close contact with both countries to urge closer co-operation in investigating the Mumbai attacks and in fighting terrorism generally".

U.K has already started to patrol the Thames expecting Pakis and hence no such stupids comments from U.K. The U.S must open the other route as soon as possible. There is no other way.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 27 Dec 2008 22:49

Singha wrote:well pakistan as the custodian of the islamic bomb should give a few nukes to protect their palestinian brothers.

The end of Pakistan.

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 27 Dec 2008 22:53

uddu wrote:
Singha wrote:well pakistan as the custodian of the islamic bomb should give a few nukes to protect their palestinian brothers.
The end of Pakistan.

Allah-hu-alam-dillah