Indian Response to Terrorism

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 28 Nov 2008 04:12

{Sorry guys, I am starting to edit these pig-burial rants.}

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 28 Nov 2008 04:14

There should not be any human rights issue {unless one uses one's brain}. People are killed in various ways in middle east all the time.

{Hint: India is not the Middle East}

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 28 Nov 2008 04:20

IMO, {useful part of post left intact}

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Nov 2008 04:29

I have a suggestion - we should stop referring to Islamophiles in all spheres of Indian life by their names - we should try to destroy their points and not refer to them as persons, as if they do no longer exist for us as persons - for us who identify with the Bharatyia nations they are as good as dead as Bharatyias, they are simply voices of deception, delusion and terror. The Z-category security protected politicians have been ordering Indians to stay calm. I agree, that Bharatyias have no need to get excited. We need not get excited about the delusional rantings of betrayers of the Bharatyia nation, and we do not need to even answer their stupidity. It is now time for calm and quiet consolidation of the nation and we should not get detracted by what certain rabid dogs are barking out from the saferty of their dens.

The Islamophiles have not only betrayed and shed the blood and tears of innocent victims of terror but also jeopardized the lives of armed forces by unnecessarily putting them in the extremely difficult urban arena for military operations. We cannot rely on these politicians and their courtiers in academics and the media - we should henceforth not react to their comments and stress out. We have to calmly organize surveillance and defence and see to it that the Indian army can do its work properly in the borders without getting drawn into interior problems. We should treat them as "dead" and not members of the Bharatyia nation.

Saik, I know what I have suggested earlier is idealistic, but our greatest tragedy is that we no longer believe in ideals - we have forgotten to dream, to believe in the power of ideas to shake the world. Ideas give us targets to strive for. On the other hand I think my suggested ideas have very practical consequences - we need to form Bharatyia national organizations with clear goals - (1) go for a more dynamic person based, directly elected head of state having sufficient direct popular mandate to be above bowing down to every small faction bargaining to the skies (2) go for a single uniform civil code (3) uniform compulsory education and social security (4) erasure of Islam as a practised religion and embracing ex-muslims back to out national fold. We have to start thinking of the possibility and soon we will see that it is do-able! I am no longer young by Indian standards, having finished university a decade ago - but has that made me cease to dream? Why can't old and young dream together? What makes our dream so unrealizable - only our distrust and lack of faith in our own capabilities.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 28 Nov 2008 04:44

After Mumbai, an end to complacency?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 28 Nov 2008 04:49

Many here have talked about the critical need for nationalist media to become far more dominant, and to identify the islamists and enemies among the media, prominent individuals, politicians so we can pass on the message and make sure they are recognized and shunned. Can we start at Bharat Rakshak by developing an 'Islamist Watch' forum? This forum would aim to develop a rating scale from 1 to 10 of individuals and organizations in the media, politics celebrities etc.. Anybody can propose a new name for rating by the forum....the forum would then discuss by bringing up all relevant facts and opinions attributed to the person /organization, and agree on a 'islamist' rating. In order to make it fair, this can be made dynamic allowing for postive or negative re-rating in case new information about the subject emerges.

Once this large list is prepared, it can be used as the basis for educating the public and making sure the hard-core islamist media & organizations' economic interests are hurt in some manner - ALL very constitutional and exactly the way democracy is supposed to work.

Down the road, this can be expanded to include a 'Commie' Watch and EJ-sympathiser watchlists.

Any takers?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Nov 2008 04:52

Gerard wrote:After Mumbai, an end to complacency?

The minute India starts entering the sleeper cells, he will be the first to start crying foul. In Telugu there is a proverb "andhithe juttu andhakapothe kaallu". What that translates if reachable he will pull the hair and injure you otherwise if you are powerful he will fall on your feet.

On the topic, I believe that complacancy will stop. Even if GOI or UPA doesn't want it will be forced on them.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 28 Nov 2008 04:53

An amazingly well-behaved thread. I couldn't find a single post to edit. Must be getting old.
{Yes I was.... }

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 28 Nov 2008 04:54

Mumbai attack: MP voters react in anger

GuruNandan · Post by **GuruNandan** » 28 Nov 2008 05:01

Balbir K Punj in Pioneer

For more than a month the Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism Squad was pre-occupied with chasing ‘Hindu terrorists’ and, it would appear, had little time for anything else. In fact, the ATS claimed that 90 per cent of the force was busy investigating the September 29 Malegaon bombing. All this while, India’s enemies were plotting a bloodbath in Mumbai. The myth of ‘Hindu terror’, built-up by sections of the UPA and the Maharashtra Government for short-term political gains, has had a macabre and grotesque fall-out. Negligence has proved deadly, and resulted in perhaps the most venomous terrorist attack in Indian history.

Today the State and Union Governments stand exposed. It is important to recognise the long-term damage that their dirty-tricks have caused. A new term — ‘Hindu terror’ — has been added to the security lexicon. The world so far recognised only ‘Islamic terror’, with Pakistan as its source. Now India is home to both Islamic and Hindu terror, if the Indian Government’s own agencies are to be believed. On the issue of terror, India and Pakistan have been placed at par.

All this must rank as the most destructive achievement by any Government anywhere. What Pakistan could not achieve after decades of labour — paint Hindu-dominated India as a factory of terror — the ‘secularists’ and their political leaders have done it in a matter of few weeks. Till recently, after every terrorist strike in India, the investigations invariably led to Pakistan and the infamous ISI. Gradually the rest of the world had come to believe the Indian charge that Islamic Pakistan was exporting terrorism to non-sectarian India. The participation of local Muslims in ISI-sponsored attacks in India used to be nominal. However, thanks to the UPA’s vote-bank politics, since 2005, nationalist Muslims stand marginalised and radicals within the community are setting the agenda. The periodic terror strikes in India are no longer an exclusive ISI enterprise. They have largely been indigenised — of course, under the supervision of a global terror machine.

Unwilling to face up to this, the ‘secularists’ sought to maintain a bogus balance. They ignored the fact that all participants in such terror strikes were Muslims, claiming inspiration from the holy Quran and arguing that they were killing ‘infidels’ as part of their religious duty. The faith-based motivations of the terrorists led to the term Islamic terror.

To counter-balance Islamic terror secularists had to discover — or invent — ‘Hindu terror’. The expected political gains were a welcome byproduct. While Muslim terrorists were responsible for popularising the term Islamic terror, the credit for coining the term ‘Hindu terror’ goes to the UPA. For no one else has attributed terrorist actions to the service of Hinduism.

Let us review the brief history of ‘Hindu terror’. Mr Sharad Pawar, a senior member of the Union Cabinet, alleged on October 5, 2008, that there were “double standards” in police action against terror: ‘Muslims were being targeted as terrorists but no action was being taken against ‘Hindu terror’ groups. Mr Pawar’s statement had come in the wake of the Malegaon bombing of September 29. How did Mr Pawar know the identity of those responsible for Malegaon terror strike even before the investigations had concluded is something that remains a mystery.

Obviously the investigations now followed the lead given by the Central Minister. The job of the ATS was easy. All it had to do was cook up ‘evidence’ on the lines indicated by the powers that be. The ‘evidence’ may not have been sufficient to stand court scrutiny but selective leaks to the media, on a daily basis, were enough to generate confusion and create the myth of ‘Hindu terror’. It was vindication for those who fervently desired the discovery of such a phenomenon for their own vested interests.

Mr Pawar was not being original in floating this devious theory. Prior to the 2007 Gujarat Assembly elections, Ms Sonia Gandhi had used the description “maut ka saudagar” for Mr Narendra Modi. Mr Digvijay Singh, the Congress general secretary, has frequently harped on the theme of ‘Hindu terror’.

In order to sustain the plot to demonise Hindus, the Maharashtra ATS improvised several sub-plots. In the process, the Indian Army was traduced as a rogue force, one in which a middle-level officer could pilfer 60 kg of RDX. Worse, it was made out as if the so-called ‘theft’ had remained undetected till the ‘ace investigators’ of the ATS had uncovered it. So the Army is not only infested with ‘terrorists’ but also totally unprofessional in its management of arms and ammunition. Could there be a worse indictment of the armed forces?

After the details of torture and inhuman treatment meted out to the so-called ‘Hindu terror’ suspects — that included a sadhvi and a serving Army officer — became public, there was mass outrage. The ATS was now forced to manufacture a new spin. Without an iota of evidence, it alleged that the accused were conspiring to kill top leaders of the RSS, since they found the Sangh “pro-Muslim” and non-violent in its approach to ideological opponents.

With this, the ATS hoped to drive a wedge within the Hindu political family. But the reverse happened and the RSS saw through the ATS’s game plan. One unintended consequence of this has been that the RSS has got the ATS’s endorsement as a law-abiding organisation, committed to peaceful activism, contrary to what ‘secularists’ have been trying to establish for decades.

The onus of convincing a sceptical public of this fantastic and outlandish ‘conspiracy’ to assassinate RSS leaders rests on the Maharashtra ATS, now deprived of its inspirational leader. All that it has produced so far is the laptop of Lt Col Purohit. The computer hard disk apparently has files containing recordings of the conspiracy. This sounds not just illogical but downright bizarre. Would an Army officer with several years of Military Intelligence experience store details of a conspiracy of this nature?

Rather than chase trivia, the Maharashtra Government and the ATS would have been better served enhancing intelligence gathering. The colossal attack on Mumbai over the past two days has made it clear that jihad — and not any ‘Hindu terror’ pipedream of the ruling political establishment — represents a threat to India. Let us focus on this enemy, and avenge the martyrdom of Hemant Karkare and his valiant colleagues.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Nov 2008 05:04

Arjun,
a good suggestion - similar lists are maintained by bloggers under the heading "Islam watch", "Dhimmiwatch" and "Dhimwits". I am slightly concerned that this list also somehow should not give them extra excuse to demand importance - a typical tactic of glorifying someone by saying "the Hindu fascists" have "targeted this paragon of anti-communal secular virtue".

Mumbai attack: MP voters react in anger

Another weapon in the hand of "Dhimwits" International United - no one mumbling from there that maybe the "Hindu fascists" organized the Mumbai attack to gain votes in MP elections?

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 28 Nov 2008 05:10

Where are the rants?

Wasn't this supposed 2 be the 'official' rant thread?

GuruNandan · Post by **GuruNandan** » 28 Nov 2008 05:11

I spoke to a friend in Mumbai who is thankfully safe along with his family.
There is a seething rage building up. He says this will be the beginning of
the end of the Congress party. I hope it will come true and we also need
an alternative Nationalist party who are unabashedly Hindu as a balance
to the BJP.

I also hope we start deporting illegal Bangladeshi immigrants.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Nov 2008 05:16

If this is not ranting what is? want more - it will become cribbing!

I have suggested following Islamophile orders to the Indian public to remain "calm" - not to get too excited, and nothing to rant about. We should calmly go about the real business of thinking of practical ways and means of removing Islamophile hold on the media, academics and politics. We leave them on the roadside, and forge ourselves a nation - a nation having no place for or recognition of Islam.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Nov 2008 05:27

Forging an alternative nationalist unabashedly Hindu party immediately will be difficult. The BJP will oppose it, and it simply divides the "Hindu" voters you really are thinking about which is risky given the short time span to the elections. More important is a non-electoral platform, network and organization which will act as a pressure group for the moment in not allowing the BJP to compromise. If BJP fails to live up to expectations the future is open for appropriate political organizations to come up.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 28 Nov 2008 05:40

A lot of people are arguing that India should do nothing that weakens the already weak Paki govt.

I see nothing wrong with hitting the nerve center of the Paki terrorist establishment: downtown Islamabad and the Rawalpindi cantonment, with all of the Pak military and ISI HQ. Hitting terrorist camps is a waste of resources.

So what if Pakistan's "democratic" (more like "kleptocratic") government is "weak"? The objective should be to break Pakistan into 5 or 6 warring factions that put their martial talents and RDX where it belongs: killing each other. Anyway their whole "Armed Forces" is a mercenary organization, hired out to the Taliban to kill Afghans and Americans, to the Americans to kill taliban and Afghans and Waziris, to the Waziris to kill Pashtuns from Afghanistan, and to the Chinese to paint their missiles. So what's wrong with breaking them into a Baluchstani PA, a Sindhi PA, a Pakjabi PA, a Waziristani PA, and a Kashmir terrorist PA?

But I have been arguing for this for 8 years, and the New Delhi establishment is going in exactly the opposite direction - weakening the integrity of INDIA while singing the praises of the mass murdering sex offenders who rule Pakistan.
Give Peace a Chance. Destroy Pakistan's Army

Ujjal · Post by **Ujjal** » 28 Nov 2008 05:56

Since "Dand" is missing from GOI's dictionary of "Saam, Daam, Dand & Bhed" mantra, the last resort would be to pull Unkil-style fear mongering a.k.a "Bhed". Either you're a terrorist or you're not. Nationality/religion/region/caste doesn't matter.

Start calling pandus as terrorists or terrorist-sympathizers if they don't do their job
Start calling babus as terrorists or terrorist-sympathizers if they don't do their job
Start calling preachers as terrorists or terrorist-sympathizers if they preach something else
Start calling reporters as terrorists or terrorist-sympathizers if they spew propaganda
You grow bread? You're a possible terrorist.
You don't have an ID card? You're a possible terrorist.

etc. etc.

Divide the terrorist group from the rest. Stop feeding them. Stop servicing them. Stop networking with them.

I'm for freedom, liberty and peace. A true Barry Goldwater Republican. But, India is no America. India doesn't have friendly neighbors.

Either we play the game of fear or we go with the "chalta hai" attitude.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 28 Nov 2008 06:01

As a first step, GoI should ask the World to get India's map correctly.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 28 Nov 2008 06:06

brihaspati wrote:Arjun,
a good suggestion - similar lists are maintained by bloggers under the heading "Islam watch", "Dhimmiwatch" and "Dhimwits". I am slightly concerned that this list also somehow should not give them extra excuse to demand importance - a typical tactic of glorifying someone by saying "the Hindu fascists" have "targeted this paragon of anti-communal secular virtue".

Mumbai attack: MP voters react in anger
Another weapon in the hand of "Dhimwits" International United - no one mumbling from there that maybe the "Hindu fascists" organized the Mumbai attack to gain votes in MP elections?

Brihaspati, took a look at these sites and they seem to be structured as regular blogs, tho' with an agenda. Are there lists with names that are out there, maybe with ratings? Would be good to see how others have attempted similar activity.

As regards the other point - one way to address it is to make explicit right at the entry to this list that the site actively recommends all constitutionally allowed economic retailatory measures, and will not condone any which are unlawful.

So, for example - if NDTV comes up with a rating of 6 or higher (as I expect it would) - the site would actively encourage all Hindus to NOT provide any more eyballs to the channel, it will actively work with advertisers to discourage them from ad spend on the channel, it will work with partners not to take any feeds from NDTV, will work with investors not to consider any further investment into the firm. BUT, it will defnitely NOT condone any violence or breaking in of the office etc.

The criteria will also be made objective to the extent possible...There is absolutely no way this can be termed fascist. In fact all these are exactly the way a democracy is supposed to function. We should in fact encourage the other side to come up with similar lists - in fact we can make their job easier by supplying our lists to them, obviously an organization that rates a 1 in our list would rate a 10 in their's. At the end of the day, if Hindus make up 80% of the country and control the majority wealth - a blockade from our side will hurt more than from theirs.

I believe this is the way the world is moving - people need to start dealing and trading only with indviduals and firms that share their value system. Folks with a different value system will always exist, but they will need to maintain their own parallel business network with other people of their beliefs if they want to survive.

GuruNandan · Post by **GuruNandan** » 28 Nov 2008 06:07

SwamyG wrote:As a first step, GoI should ask the World to get India's map correctly.

SwamyG, I saw that PBS showed India map without Jammu and Kashmir
yesterday, but today they seemed to have corrected it. I don't know
if somebody complained to them. I don't watch the CNN, so i don't know
about CNN. We can send a barrage of emails to the channels that are
insensitive to India's territorial integrity.

jobatra · Post by **jobatra** » 28 Nov 2008 06:08

You want a rant, here's a rant.

I am a longtime BR lurker and general well-wisher of the community. I find myself here after every attack on India etc. because I respect and admire the small minority of members who remove the bullshyt and give us some grains of truth. I expect this will happen at some point in the future. But for now, I have to read recipes of 'how to cook terrorist with pig parts'...ooh, ooh, I have a good one: how 'bout we put the pig penis in before we cremate them, so that it's all nice and carmelized at the end? clever no? serve with chopped onions and parsley. sheesh, what unmitigated retardedness.

Then there are others that belong to the same age-group who are tripping over themselves announcing an end to the 'Kangressi' regime, and a return to power of the big, badass, hindoo express... great. From the producers of such hits as Samjhauta Express, Kargil, and 'come no, let's play cricket'. Notice that LKji ran to Mumbai just as fast our ministry. Way to go guys, eat more footage. Wake up.

There needs to be a systemic change in the way terrorism is dealt with. This transcends which party vote-banks successfully in a given four-year period. We do all this, "Mumbai is strong", "Delhi is strong" bullshyt just because people get back to their daily lives the next day. They don't care. We don't care. I think the word is not 'strong' but 'apathetic'. "Mumbai gives F*ckall about anyone who died six months ago...we are busy hitting biharis no." Where is that L*nd of a Thackeray now? How about some Thackeray recipes guys?

Anyway. Rant over. I'll go back to lurking, and the majority here can go back to pork recipes and BR acronyms.

peace and love.

pran · Post by **pran** » 28 Nov 2008 06:15

The window of a speedy response is fading fast.Enough evidence is there to identify the perpetrators, now is the time of action. Kangress ... Hon'able hOme minister/prime minister ,wagiarah wagairah I did not mean shooting your mouths. Grow some balls and flatten Muridke & Pindi.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 28 Nov 2008 06:20

jobatra: Thanks. Needed to be said.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Nov 2008 06:31

pran wrote:The window of a speedy response is fading fast..

There will be no fast response.

Our politicians are cowards who gain power on false promises and depend on Gandhis "no violence" to fatten their purses.

I spit on the whole lot

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Nov 2008 06:35

folks you have got the name of the terrorist to feed decayed pigs and its parts..

Hindu News wrote: Ajmal Amir Kamal, a resident of Faridkot, Multan in Pakistan and two others were arrested from the hotel, official sources said.

The arrested militants belong to Lashkar-e-Taiba, they said.

Kamal told the investigators that they had come in a merchant vessel, which dropped them at 10 nautical miles ahead of Indian waters. From there, they took a dingy fibre glass boat to enter the Indian waters, he said.

There were 12 people on the boat, he said.

pran · Post by **pran** » 28 Nov 2008 06:39

Just few weeks ago there was news about the LET chief getting a bullet proof pajero , he was planning this big massacare and needed protection, The whole of Muridke should be flattened just to kill that pig.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 28 Nov 2008 06:42

shiv wrote:
pran wrote:The window of a speedy response is fading fast..

There will be no fast response.

Our politicians are cowards who gain power on false promises and depend on Gandhis "no violence" to fatten their purses.

I spit on the whole lot

I was just thinking the same thing before I read your post.

Look, Pakistan was caught red handed in the bombing of the Indian consulate in Kabul. Everyone knows that. We didn't respond. IMO that should have been the last and final act, we should have given a very strong response. But we didn't. What makes us think that MMS/politicians will respond to this? Maybe a few business men will start to complain, so they may take some action. But I still don't have faith that any reprisals will be made against the terrorists.

Good Night

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Nov 2008 06:53

diplomatic pressure on pakistan should start.. from us, USA, UK, UN, united. Ban paki exports and imports. boycott all things paki.. sorry even those who try to save their kids which have holes in their hearts at Bangalore hospitals. let them realize an intl. boycott.

can this be done the least.. lets have a 10 year ban. no trade with pakistan.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 28 Nov 2008 07:07

India should take the lead in putting together an international consortium that will occupy Pakistan and administer it ... This is the only solution. Will ultimately resolve the terrorist problem for every major economy around the globe

GuruNandan · Post by **GuruNandan** » 28 Nov 2008 07:17

jobatra wrote: Then there are others that belong to the same age-group who are tripping over themselves announcing an end to the 'Kangressi' regime, and a return to power of the big, badass, hindoo express... great.

All right. Shall we continue...

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Nov 2008 07:21

Arjun,
you can look at the various "Dhimwit of the month" postings, including one on "thereligionofpeace", another example is http://stix1972.typepad.com/stix_blog/d ... index.html. You are right, they are all blogs with a "Rightwing" agenda, and I am "unabashedly" in favour of the "Right" in India. I understand what you want is a much more detailed list. We can ask for open voting using BR ids or mask it but still ensuring that repeated voting cannot take place. I think if we also maintain an associated dossier file on the "records" that voters can supply about incidents, comments, points as to evidence supporting such a vote for the concerned Dhimwit, then that will help guest browsers as well as the public to make up their minds seeing the evidence. It is like presenting a prosecution case perhaps.

Economic non-cooperation is a very potent tool. I have already urged a social boycott of all Islamophiles at all levels of society - this does include economic non-cooperation too.

International consortium cannot be formed because of GOI regimes submission to the UN - the whole disaster having roots in that ultimate Dhimwit, the first PM's volunteering UN referendum for Kashmir - and China will veto any such move, being one of the permanent members of the Security Council. India will have to do this on its own in the future, taking care diplomatically to ensure that no one comes to TSP's rescue.

Why is the dumb to the power infinity NDTV coverage focusing on commando positions, heli drops, on the Nariman house - can anyone phone some sense into them? these great wits are "delaying" by a few minutes - they say! oh give us a break -go to sleep!

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 28 Nov 2008 07:25

Piss all will happen after this is sorted out by the boots on the ground.
The pols will show up for the photo-op, the pakis supported by the US will say equal-equal, Israel will tell us that the next time we wish to f*ck up, at least we can let em have a go, and just maybe they'll figure out who did this and take em out 5 years from now.

Peace, prosperity and love for the fellow, well, its back to good ol lovin and livin again.

What's needed, everyone knows.
Insert boots on paki ground and avenge every incident, as soon as we learn of who did it.
Tell the yanks, yes, tell em, you are either with us or we are not with you.

And the next time someone decides to go on TV and say that a neighbor will have to pay a price, ask em what that would be, on candid camera.

Oh and there is the famed RAW with their rusty rickety ARW airplanes. The only permutation they don't got is WAR. They keep waiting, it seems, to prevent the big one from happening.

My rant off.
S

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 28 Nov 2008 07:46

Samuel: We had "gamed" this a long time ago:

Insert boots on paki ground and avenge every incident, as soon as we learn of who did it.
Tell the yanks, yes, tell em, you are either with us or we are not with you.

Won't work, because this is the Israeli approach, which has succeeded only in achieving a standoff maintained only by a preponderance of technically superior American weaponry. Even that does not seem to work too well these days, going by the Hezbollah experience in Lebanon.

What I would recommend is that there MUST be retaliation, and it should be far beyond any "proportionate" retaliation, but it should also be focused on that causes pain to the Generals who run the global terrorist enterprise. This means hitting the INFRASTRUCTURE that allows the Pak Army to be mobile and reach the far reaches of their empire - the bridge connecting Rawalpindi and Islamabad, a few across the Indus, the rail line at Rahim Yar Khan, etc.

Much more importantly, hit the real estate of the Al Rashid Trust, the Habib Bank, the Karachi waterfront, much of which is owned by Paki generals.

Hit these on OUR time scale, INDIA decides when to hit.

This will rapidly reduce the market value of stuff owned by the Paki generals, and give them strong motivation to change behavior.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 28 Nov 2008 07:51

Narayanan: Why would the generals not hit back? It is not like the desi movies, where after a few rounds of the fight the villain falls at the hero's feet and in the last scene is seen with vibuthi on his forehead. Why will Pakistan not do the same thing?

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 28 Nov 2008 08:02

I agree, Narayanan. I do not mean to suggest a "calibrated", "proportional" or "equal" response and get mired in a TT match when I said avenge every incident.

What I mean is that we must not let debts pile up. How, at what interest and when they are paid should entirely be of our choosing. But we've accumulated too much debt now and need to maintain assets that can click through the next item, to relieve the next line item on our list of debts we choose to or conveniently can.

I am of course pissing in the wind here, having zilch confidence that there is someone, anyone, in power who can scrape together even a "proportional" response.

S

narayanan wrote:Samuel: We had "gamed" this a long time ago:
Insert boots on paki ground and avenge every incident, as soon as we learn of who did it.
Tell the yanks, yes, tell em, you are either with us or we are not with you.

Won't work, because this is the Israeli approach, which has succeeded only in achieving a standoff maintained only by a preponderance of technically superior American weaponry. Even that does not seem to work too well these days, going by the Hezbollah experience in Lebanon.

What I would recommend is that there MUST be retaliation, and it should be far beyond any "proportionate" retaliation, but it should also be focused on that causes pain to the Generals who run the global terrorist enterprise. This means hitting the INFRASTRUCTURE that allows the Pak Army to be mobile and reach the far reaches of their empire - the bridge connecting Rawalpindi and Islamabad, a few across the Indus, the rail line at Rahim Yar Khan, etc.

Much more importantly, hit the real estate of the Al Rashid Trust, the Habib Bank, the Karachi waterfront, much of which is owned by Paki generals.

Hit these on OUR time scale, INDIA decides when to hit.

This will rapidly reduce the market value of stuff owned by the Paki generals, and give them strong motivation to change behavior.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 28 Nov 2008 08:03

Because immediately after the operation, with the men back home, the PM will go on TV and announce that it is a response to XYZ terrorist attack, and inform the Pakistani government that any escalation will lead to all-out war.

This is always the kicker - the message MUST be conveyed that India will escalate at a much higher rate than Pakistan. This is where public opinion has to back the GOI, and for that the GOI must articulate to the public why enough is enough, it is time to stop the nonsense.

The "World Powers" will of course try to pressure India to be "restrained", but once they realize that this is not going to happen, they will start accepting the truth, and make the effort to push TSP.

The Generals' income source is the West, to a large degree. The Saudis will cut off funding if they are seen to be losing the support of the West.
So the whole Paki house of terrorist cards will come crashing down, with, say, three attacks by India, and a clear, clear statement from the PM that India will escalate without bounds if necessary, unless the Paki govt. takes the initiative and cleans out the terrorists.

Let PAKI "boots" die cleaning out their terror camps.

You see what a great effect the Predator attacks are having on the Pak Army's resolve? The Predator's message is clear- what can hit terrorists visiting huts in Wana, can also hit Generals driving around 'Pindi or lounging in Lahore. Same way, India needs to convey the message.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 28 Nov 2008 08:12

If the GoI announces an intention of all-out war. Wouldn't Pakistan welcome it under the situation that it is in now? Would various factions start pulling the state further apart or will it unite against India? And Unkil is always in the picture.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 28 Nov 2008 08:15

i notice 3 trends in some segment of the western media :

1) a strong attempt to portray the terrorists as being local to India. Check out : "Clues suggest homegrown terrorists in India attack" where the contributing author is one Muneeza Naqvi (sounds pakistani) and no real Indian journalist.

2) Ignorant "terrorism experts" and "analysts" around the world giving their views and passing it off as fact. Most probably never even set foot in India in their life.

3) an attempt to differentiate between an al-queda terrorist attack from this attack. The message being that an al-queda attack only happens in a western country which is terrorism. if it happens in another country, its not an al-queda attack and not really terrorism.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 28 Nov 2008 08:20

From PM MMS's speech:

nstruments like the National Security Act will be employed to deal with situations of this kind. Existing laws will be tightened to ensure that there are no loopholes available to terrorists to escape the clutches of the law. Most importantly, it is essential to immediately set up a Federal Investigation Agency to go into terrorist crimes of this kind and ensure that the guilty are brought to book.

Can someone elaborate what this National Security Act will be? Is it intended to be similar to POTA or TADA or just some watered down ineffective version? Or is this going to be some sort of excuse where law enforcement authorities can make an arrest and keep a person in detention indefinitely and without formal charges?

The PM is also promising to set up an FBI type of organization. Doesn't that already exist with the CBI and IB? Or are their duties suppose to be spying on the opposition parties?

We will take up strongly with our neighbours that the use of their territory for launching attacks on us will not be tolerated, and that there would be a cost if suitable measures are not taken by them. We will take a number of measures to strengthen the hands of our police and intelligence authorities. We will curb the flow of funds to suspect organizations. We will restrict the entry of suspects into the country. We will go after these individuals and organizations and make sure that every perpetrator, organizer and supporter of terror, whatever his affiliation or religion may be, pays a heavy price for these cowardly and horrific acts against our people.

In translation this means nothing. What he should have said is that India will go after these terrorists wherever in the world they may hide. MMS is tying the GoI's hands behind its back and this statement means primarily a diplomatic approach to solving this problem. Its not at all surprising.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 28 Nov 2008 08:21

The willingness to go to total war is a risk that India must take to end this nonsense. Point is that it must be made very very clear that if TSP escalates, that means the END of Pakistan. Not a "ceasefire" etc. Why would the Paki generals welcome all-out war on INDIA's terms? Refugee visas to UK and US? No good if the airports are cratered.

The entire war must be aimed at breaking up TSP - IOW, allow the Baluchistan Freedom Movement, the Free Balwaristan Movement, and the Pakhtoonistan movement to flourish, because the Pak Army cannot reach them.

The only hope of the PA /PAF then is to conserve their resources so they can continue to go bomb women in Wana. If they risk their planes and tanks in combat against India, the folks on west bank of the Indus will soon enter Islamabad.