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Indian Response to Terrorism

RajaJi
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby RajaJi » 28 Dec 2008 06:46

Gerard wrote:
I think instead of a military strike, if, Mahatama Gandhi ji was alive today he would want us to first dismantle our military machinery, renounce our deadly nuclear weapons, maybe donate them to our good neighbour Bangladesh


http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peac ... index.html

"Mr. Gandhi told his prayer meeting to-night that, though he had always opposed all warfare, if there was no other way of securing justice from Pakistan and if Pakistan persistently refused to see its proved error and continued to minimise it, the Indian Union Government would have to go to war against it. No one wanted war, but he could never advise anyone to put up with injustice. If all Hindus were annihilated for a just cause he would not mind. If there was war, the Hindus in Pakistan could not be fifth columnists. If their loyalty lay not with Pakistan they should leave it. Similarly Muslims whose loyalty was with Pakistan should not stay in the Indian Union."


:lol: I was just being sacrastic, enough is enough, i just got tired of all the agonizing over the incompetency of the GoI, and then they surprised me again, by telling Israel to cool it. :lol: I mean, this is just crazy, us people agonizing over the sad and sorry state of affairs in India and the gutless response of the ball-less GoI. Nothing we say here matters, nothing, we think should be done, matters. These pathetic leaders of India will do what seems right to them, they, obviously don't give a crap about what happens to Indian citizens and the country, as long as they keep filling they their coffers with more and more wealth, as long as they get top notch security. They just don't care, and crying about it here or anywhere else isn't gona make them do diddly squat.
Last edited by RajaJi on 28 Dec 2008 06:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Gerard » 28 Dec 2008 06:49

Russia asks India, Pak to exercise 'maximum restraint'
"The Russian Federation resolutely urges India and Pakistan to show maximum restraint and not to permit the development of situation on their border on a scenario based on use of force," the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Anindya » 28 Dec 2008 06:49


Major pullout from Afghan border area

Amir Mir


ISLAMABAD: While shifting tens of thousands of troops from the Pak-Afghan border to the Indo-Pak border, decision-makers in Islamabad have informed Washington that Pakistan was left with no other option after the failure of the Bush administration to defuse the tension with India which is escalating with each passing day.

Sources said troops are being redeployed on a significant scale and the move is not meant only to send a message either to Americans or Indians. They said Pakistan could no longer risk its security by keeping its forces on the Pak-Afghan border when Americans are not in a position to prevail upon the Indian establishment to tone down its “hostile posture”. Sources also said there is a growing anti-American sentiment across Pakistan, apart from resentment toward Indian efforts to build up pressure on Pakistan.

When asked how many troops are being relocated from the Pak-Afghan border to the Indo-Pak border, military sources in Rawalpindi said almost 40 per cent of the 80,0000 troops are being shifted. They added that the remaining 60 per cent of the troops would continue to guard the Pak-Afghan border besides continuing military operations against Taliban-linked militants in the tribal region and would not be pulled back. The sources, however, added that if the Indian military build-up along the Indo-Pak border continues, 20 per cent more of the Pakistani troops could be shifted from the western borders in a span of one week.

Giving details of the Pakistani troops’ redeployment, the military sources said two units of the Army had been withdrawn from Lower Dir district bordering the restive Bajaur Agency and Afghanistan’s Kunar province while troops had also been pulled out of South Waziristan. The troops withdrawn from Lower Dir were not involved in any military operations and had been deployed there for back-up support. The sources said some of the troops pulled out of the tribal areas were based in snow-bound areas where no fighting could take place at this time of the year.

The sources added that the 10th Brigade of the Pakistan Army has been sent to Lahore, the 3rd Armoured Brigade of the Army had been ordered to march towards Jhelum, while the 10th and 11th divisions have been put on high alert and troops have been stationed in the Rajauri and Poonch sectors of Kashmir. To a question, the sources said shorter internal lines made full mobilisation faster and easier for Pakistan than for India. They pointed out that during 2001-2002 Pakistani troops had been deployed even before India had completed its own deployment, even though Pakistan began its deployment only in response to that of India.

Approached for comments, Pakistani military spokesman Major General Athar Abbas said: “We do not want to create any war hysteria, but we have to take the minimum security measures to ward off any threat”.

Pakistan is believed to have been producing more plutonium per year than India for several years and has between 20kg and 60kg of plutonium at present. “But Pakistan, whose weapons program is generally uranium-based, has between 1,200kg and 1,250kg of highly enriched uranium,” says the study.

Though a smaller arsenal does not matter much in the case of nuclear deterrence, if Pakistan overtakes India in atomic bombs, it will make it much more difficult for India to negotiate a fissile-materials cutoff treaty.

The ISIS study states that Pakistan has five functional ballistic missiles today, while India has a single Prithvi battlefield ballistic missile. “Pakistan also has a defined nuclear command authority, while India is still groping to define its slogan of minimum nuclear deterrence. The question India must now answer is whether it should be satisfied with its conventional military superiority and allow Pakistan to maintain the parity it has achieved in the nuclear field or instead raise its nuclear and missile capacity citing a threat from China as the major justification.”

But several strategic analysts, particularly those with a military background, say that India has not been building bombs since the 1998 tests and has been practising a moratorium not only on testing weapons, but also on building them, though they are not happy with the situation. Indeed, in their view, New Delhi allowed itself to be persuaded by the US to practice strategic restraint, though under another name, ‘defence posture’.

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1217146

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Vivek_A » 28 Dec 2008 06:59

Arindam: why are you posting this BS?

The ISIS study states that Pakistan has five functional ballistic missiles today, while India has a single Prithvi battlefield ballistic missile. “Pakistan also has a defined nuclear command authority, while India is still groping to define its slogan of minimum nuclear deterrence. The question India must now answer is whether it should be satisfied with its conventional military superiority and allow Pakistan to maintain the parity it has achieved in the nuclear field or instead raise its nuclear and missile capacity citing a threat from China as the major justification.”

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Gerard » 28 Dec 2008 07:03

Shades of the 2003 psyops? They are worried about an Indian strike like during Parakram?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3340687/

NBC News
updated 10:35 a.m. ET Oct. 24, 2003

Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal is vastly superior to that of rival India, with up to five times the nuclear warheads, say U.S. military and intelligence officials now reassessing the South Asian balance of power. Interviews with senior U.S. officials in the past week revealed the view that Pakistan not only has more warheads than its longtime adversary, but has far more capability to actually use them.
The U.S. report also states that “India probably has a handful of nuclear bombs,” meaning about five. With regard to delivery systems - the missiles and bombers needed to launch a nuclear strike - U.S. officials now believe Indian capabilities to be seriously lagging.

According to the Defense Department document, which is unclassified, India has no nuclear-capable missiles and fewer aircraft capable of delivering a nuclear payload than Pakistan does

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby shiv » 28 Dec 2008 07:03

Vivek_A wrote:Arindam: why are you posting this BS?

The ISIS study states that Pakistan has five functional ballistic missiles today, while India has a single Prithvi battlefield ballistic missile. “Pakistan also has a defined nuclear command authority, while India is still groping to define its slogan of minimum nuclear deterrence. The question India must now answer is whether it should be satisfied with its conventional military superiority and allow Pakistan to maintain the parity it has achieved in the nuclear field or instead raise its nuclear and missile capacity citing a threat from China as the major justification.”


:rotfl:

Actually Doktorr Samar Mubarakmard says this in an interview on YouTube - but he says so many funny things that I am still trying to put subtitles and edit the unnecessary stuff to upload

Watch this space!!

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Guddu » 28 Dec 2008 07:40

Gerard wrote:Russia asks India, Pak to exercise 'maximum restraint'
"The Russian Federation resolutely urges India and Pakistan to show maximum restraint and not to permit the development of situation on their border on a scenario based on use of force," the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.


I find it difficult to understand this Russian statement, in view of geopolitiks. If India attacks, Pak will be forced to pull out from FATA and Pak will likely stop American shipment of goods via pak. Such an outcome would be desirable to the Russians, as it will put severe constraints on American supplies. OTOH, the US is feverishly looking at alternative non-Pak, non-Russian routes for their supplies. This may be one reason, they are asking India to hold back. As soon as they have their supply routes in place, India should attack.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Anindya » 28 Dec 2008 07:41

Vivek_A wrote:Arindam: why are you posting this BS?

The ISIS study states that Pakistan ....”


At this point, in stead of labeling things - its better to focus on "who saying what" - irrespective of whether we like it or not - and subsequently note key media observations and reactions from our netas. The trends beneath the first blush of analysis are important to observe.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Anindya » 28 Dec 2008 07:44

Russia asks India, Pak to exercise 'maximum restraint'
Quote:
"The Russian Federation resolutely urges India and Pakistan to show maximum restraint and not to permit the development of situation on their border on a scenario based on use of force," the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.


During the Mumbai attack - there was a report that indicated that the terrorists specifically protected the Russians amongst the hostages - including walking them out to safety; more than what they did for the Turkish Muslim couple.

Any links to the report?

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby D_Chopra » 28 Dec 2008 07:56

Gerard wrote:Russia asks India, Pak to exercise 'maximum restraint'
"The Russian Federation resolutely urges India and Pakistan to show maximum restraint and not to permit the development of situation on their border on a scenario based on use of force," the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.


Russia needs to be clear in its own mind whether it wants to be India's supplier or supplier + friend. Russia doesnt want to kill the golden goose (Indo-Pak conflict) that has for decades provided it hard cash and strategic leverage. In any hypothetical full blown war, pakis war waging ability will be completely destroyed and it will be made sure it never ever is a security threat to India in the future. The dragon on the other hand is not as mad as paki, it can be coaxed into settling for big trade dollars and status quo on the border dispute. Exiled Tibet government will be made toothless than it already is.

The outcome of the war for Russia would be losing several billions every year in cash that sustains its defense industry and will lose its leverage over south asian politics and strategic affairs.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Karna_A » 28 Dec 2008 08:11

D_Chopra wrote:
Gerard wrote:Russia asks India, Pak to exercise 'maximum restraint'
"The Russian Federation resolutely urges India and Pakistan to show maximum restraint and not to permit the development of situation on their border on a scenario based on use of force," the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.


Russia needs to be clear in its own mind whether it wants to be India's supplier or supplier + friend. Russia doesnt want to kill the golden goose (Indo-Pak conflict) that has for decades provided it hard cash and strategic leverage. In any hypothetical full blown war, pakis war waging ability will be completely destroyed and it will be made sure it never ever is a security threat to India in the future. The dragon on the other hand is not as mad as paki, it can be coaxed into settling for big trade dollars and status quo on the border dispute. Exiled Tibet government will be made toothless than it already is.

The outcome of the war for Russia would be losing several billions every year in cash that sustains its defense industry and will lose its leverage over south asian politics and strategic affairs.



What is said is not important. What is done is way more important.
These press clips are routinely given for public consumption and have no actual value.
Is there any value of what Zardari says?
There is a habit of Newspapers to give out who said what. They should concentrate on who did what? Not what China/Russia say but what are they actually doing.

It is much better for Russia to be be talking restraint in public and supplying necessary arms in background than the other way round.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby RajaJi » 28 Dec 2008 08:32

Are GoI put in place by Americans? Russians? Chinese? I think so. Because they are basically asking for their permissions, they have a fear of what these countries will think of them, and can't take a discision withought the permission of these countries. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby brihaspati » 28 Dec 2008 08:42

Russia could be motivated from several angles
(1) we have discussed in the "great game" thread about possible convergence of interests with China - and it is this Sino-Russian "understanding" that could be at play - China could be worried that this could mean the beginning of the end of its "interests" in Pakistan.
(2) Russia could be worried that US would be able to draw in India completely to its side and it is a subtle hint to India that in that case Russia may take up the role of protector of Pakistan and seek to replace US as the major player in the region
(3) it could also be a sign that Russia has now finally decided to play the role of protector of "Islamic" interests as a "reversal of strategies" adopted in the past by the US - it would not be surprising to find the Islamic hordes suddenly looking and joyfully finding an ally in Putin (in spite of "Chechnya") who is bent on doing everything to revive the "Russian empire" of the pre-Bolshevik and Bolshevik Tsars, and cannot do so without cutting the US down to size in Asia.

All this is happening because GOI delayed and sashayed like a drag queen for so long (nothing personal against drag! it is about pretending to be something else to escape from the actual role expected) - this has convinced the "powers" that they should safeguard their own interests in the face of a vacillating GOI who have no consistent or clear policy and have little or no decisive action taking capacity.

Friends it is perhaps time to think seriously of the future - and buildup alternatives - policies, agendas, parties, leaders, and think seriously of augmenting military organizations for the future - for what this GOI has done is to leave a legacy for the country that will simply drag the nation into more bloodshed, pain, and loss. The army should be helped to grow, as it is the army which will face increasing attacks, and will have to defend the civilians, and to prevent all that it is the army which perhaps has to play "out of border" roles for which I do not think it has been adequately equipped by the GOI's so far.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby ldev » 28 Dec 2008 09:41

I dont think India has ever been in a better position to punish Pakistan than now and within the next 2-3 months.

1. There is a major global financial squeeze on and most countries have as their first priority getting through the global financial problems.

2. The US is overextended in Iraq and Afghanistan and has no stomach for getting involved in an India-Pakistan fracas.

3. India's relative position both from a military and economic standpoint vis a vis Pakistan has never been stronger than now.

4. IMO India should conduct a successful PAD/AAD test to demonstrate a layered defence from ballistic missile attack to let the Pakistanis know that India has protection.

Such a window of opportunity will not come about again very soon. Present GOI seems to believe that the Mumbai attacks were orchestrated by the Pakistani military to strike at India's economic jugular. In the short term there is no defence against such attacks. If 10 plots are detected, the 11th will get through causing further economic damage. Therefore there has to be offensive action against Pakistan initiated before the country starts preparing for the next Lok Sabha elections.

PS: Just read the other thread started by Shiv. The US-Pakistan relation is dysfunctional. Since the US seems unable to wean itself of its dysfunctional protege....(current utility is as a conduit for supplies to its Afghan operations).... India has to eliminate Pakistan's utility to the US by force . And India has never been in a better position to "assist in this de-weaning operation" than now.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby ezra » 28 Dec 2008 10:44

[quote="Arindam"][quote]

[b]Major pullout from Afghan border area
Amir Mir

The pullout of its troops from the Afghan border is actually indicative of Pakistans waning support for Americas war on terror and the low morale of its army from being forced to fight that war.
It must be even more excruciating for the poor Pakistani soldier to have to watch the sophisticated war machine of the "Great Satan", the sworn enemy of Islam, blow up their kin to smithereens every day. Its like inflicting a thousand cuts on ones self to say the least.

Its needless to say that Pakistan is using the current situation as an excuse to give its traumatised army a break from the Americans.
Last edited by ezra on 28 Dec 2008 10:58, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Rishi » 28 Dec 2008 10:44

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/web1/08dec28/news.htm#2

India to weed out terror from Pak if global efforts fail: PC

PUDUCHERRY,Dec 27: Home Minister P Chidambaram today said that India is prepared to face "attacks" emanating from Pakistani soil squarely but expressed the hope that efforts of other countries to make Islamabad tread the "right path" succeed.

"The Mumbai terror attacks have awakened the world and international community is using its good offices to prevail on Pakistan to tread the right path. We hope these efforts succeed.

"If not, India is prepared to face the attacks from Pakistan squarely with the help of the people," he said addressing the students and faculty of Pondicherry University here.

...

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Dhiman » 28 Dec 2008 10:51

RajaJi wrote:
Vikram_S wrote:


napunsak GOI tells another country to be similarly napunsak


Not to deviate the issue here, I would encourage all on BRF to go through some excellent documentries on YouTube regarding Isreali-Phalestine issues. It will give you some perspective on the issue that is completely unrelated to anything related to India or Pakistan. Isreal is the party that is on the morally wrong side here and GoI stance reflects this as it should even though India has recently (in last one decade or so) opened trade with Isreal. You have no idea what you are talking about. Isreali ministry of propoganda must be very pleased with itself.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Rangudu » 28 Dec 2008 10:58

Is you for real?

When criticizing a country, it would be useful to spell its name correctly.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Vivek K » 28 Dec 2008 11:01

Mumbai attacks seem to have been part of a plan by ISI to relieve the pressure on Talibunnies. The close relation between ISI and Tabiunnies was evidenced by the statements of the 'bunnies that they would support Pukistan if India attacked. Now think back and try to comprehend how columns of heavily armed Puki army were "kidnapped" by a handful of 'bunnies. Easy isn't it? All part of the covert relationship.

What is extremely tragic is that the plan to murder 200-300 innocent civilians was hatched as a diversionary tactic by the ISI-buny combine. PA troop movement to the border with India will make it easier for the bunnies to operate in the border areas and target US and NATO troops.

The response to the Mumbai attacks must be carefully thought out. The response must not be knee-jerk. The objectives must be real i.e. Puki infrastructure instead of terrorist camps unless they are targeted to take out top rung leaders.

The prelude to the attacks must include wearing out the Pakis by repeated airspace violations.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Arun_S » 28 Dec 2008 11:18

Frontline: End Game With Pakistan
The disintegration of Pakistan in the 21st century would be by no means a desirable event. But Pakistan's government and army appear determined to make it inevitable. ......

Rajinder Puri

US specialist on South Asian affairs Professor Stephen Cohen said that the Pakistan government most likely cannot control the pro-terrorist elements in Pakistan. He appears to be right. He went on to add that India therefore should display patience and continue to engage with Pakistan’s democratically elected government.

He appears to be horribly wrong. No government could survive public anger if it persisted with a policy that continually bleeds India. If the Pakistan government cannot control terrorist outfits within or outside its establishment it can, as the legally elected government, seek foreign assistance to accomplish it. The US, Europe and Russia could all help with or without UN sanction.

India, however, cannot wait for hypothetical developments. This scribe had earlier ruled out military action against Pakistan because that would suit India’s enemies. What, then, can India do short of war if over the next few weeks the Pakistan government remains unwilling or unable to cooperate? There is much that India can do.

India can tighten security internally on a war footing. It can seal all Indo-Pakistan borders and raise its guard militarily. It can break diplomatic relations with Pakistan and close down its embassy in Islamabad. It can sever all trade, cultural and people to people contacts with Pakistan. It can lobby in the UN to declare Pakistan a rogue state that has become the hub of global terrorism. It can urge all nations to impose trade sanctions against Pakistan and cut off all aid. It can give recognition and offer moral support to those separatists in Baluchistan who seek independence.

It can do the same with Pashtuns in the NWFP who want to join up with their tribal brothers in Afghanistan. It can do all these things simultaneously. And then it has only to guard against precipitate action from across the borders, and wait. What the Indian government must resolutely avoid is to launch a military adventure under foreign advice.

Sooner rather than later Pakistan will collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. It would be seen then how far and how effectively can China continue to prop up Pakistan. Jinnah’s quixotic dream of an Islamic state carved out of India most likely will be shattered. Nehru’s shameful compromise allowing it to happen most likely will be undone. The disintegration of Pakistan in the 21st century would be by no means a desirable event. But Pakistan's government and army appear determined to make it inevitable.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Arun_S » 28 Dec 2008 11:43

Frontline: The American Pipe-Dream
The US never considered India 'special' as we were made to believe

M.K. Bhadrakumar

Islamabad has drawn the 'red line'. It ably took the 'pressure' from the United States on the Mumbai attacks, and is seen as adopting a 'principled position': India must provide evidence; Pakistan cannot hand over to India any of its nationals; no foreign agencies will be allowed to interrogate Pakistani nationals on its soil.

Alongside, Islamabad launched its own 'initiatives': a joint investigative mechanism and a high-level team to travel to Delhi. Islamabad says Delhi's green signal is awaited. Indeed, it promptly acted on the United Nations Security Council call, which was what India demanded as per US advice.

With its vast experience in dealing with Washington, Islamabad is concluding that US 'pressure' has run its course. Attention will soon turn to the gala ceremony in Washington on January 20 for a historic transfer of power. Unless Pakistan precipitates tension, time is not far off before the international community urges India to engage Pakistan in a spirit of dialogue.

India ponders, 'What now'? It put its strategic partnership with the US to the litmus test and is dismayed at the result. India conducted over 50 military exercises with the US over recent years but they couldn't forestall the act of war on Mumbai or help track down the mentors of the terrorists. India was sold a dream—that Washington was determined to make it a first class world power. The dream lies broken. The carpetbaggers who peddled the dream are nowhere to be seen.

It almost seems grotesque that our strategic gurus promised that the Indo-US nuclear deal was a prerequisite for India to become a 'balancer' in the 21st century international system. Where was it that we went so hopelessly wrong in our triumphalism? Quintessentially, what we're witnessing is that the US never really "dehyphenated" its policies towards India and Pakistan like we believed or were led to believe, or both. The US policy is to maintain stable, predictable, balanced relationships with both India and Pakistan so as to optimally pursue its regional policies as a superpower.

There was no question of the US abandoning Pakistan or elevating India in disregard of Pakistani security concerns. Pakistan is pivotal to the realisation of the US's 'Great Central Asia' strategy. Thus, building up the Pakistani power structure, including the military, is a crucial element of its regional strategy. India can never replace Pakistan in the US geostrategy, in which control of Afghanistan is a priority.

Of course, befriending India would have its benefits as well. Its growing market offers business opportunities and it is also a military power in the Indian Ocean region with the capacity to act as a junior partner. Coopting India is useful for the US strategy towards Russia, China and Iran. Certainly, India could mitigate Israel's regional isolation in West Asia. Hence, India is integral to the US objective to remain embedded in the Asian security scenario.

The US global strategy is to perpetuate its dominance as a world power despite the steady decline in its influence and emergence of new power centres and, to this end, build coalitions from time to time. In the mistaken faith that India's foreign policy can flourish with the single underpinning of strategic partnership with the US, Indian elite neglected the shared concerns and profound commonality of interests India has with Russia and Iran over the Afghan problem. They cut adrift from regional politics and fancied the idea that so long as India harmonised relations with the US, everything else willy-nilly would fall in place—our adversarial relationships with China and Pakistan or the atrophying of our traditional ties with Russia and Iran. Some were myopic enough to actually argue for Indian military deployment in Afghanistan and to play the 'Tibet card' against China.

Simply put, it's time we understand that the open-ended US military occupation of Afghanistan has destabilised Pakistan and, in turn, is drawing the region into the vortex of terrorism. We need to work with Russia and Iran on a regional initiative for an Afghan settlement. It is not in our national security interest to abandon Afghanistan as the playpen of a closely-knit US-UK-Pakistan-Saudi condominium.

The moot point is whether the breakdown of foreign policy is attributable to a failure of leadership, or is it that the Indian elite today is so compromised with the "Washington consensus" that it refuses to see hard realities. The first case is appalling, and the second, frightening. After all, our Pakistan problem is not something new. We sought to keep the tension under check through a judicious mix of factors of advantage. Which, of course, required a broad-based, independent foreign policy and an awareness that there is no such thing as absolute security.

(The writer is a former IFS officer)

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby samuel.chandra » 28 Dec 2008 11:45

brihaspati wrote:why should not India join the "war against terror" from the Afghan side ... Why not take advantage of it?


I think opening up the afghan front is necessary and definitely possible. Its an easy brownie point for UPA... they would seem to be taking some action without actually instigating a conflict on the Indian border. In all future conflicts, we will have an edge over pakis if this happens. Plus we get ample target practice on the afghan borders...and easy access for covert action.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby samuel.chandra » 28 Dec 2008 12:14

Pranay wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India_Pakistan_tone_down_war_talk/articleshow/3902011.cms

I just hope that the Indian electorate throws out this spineless cabal currently "in charge" of the country in the coming national elections; for the sake of the dignity and self respect of India. :(


I think BJP will land a ton of bricks on UPA if it clearly backs down from military option. They don't seem to be making much noise. BJP would not let the issue die, if UPA backs down...so I am guessing they are not yet sure of upa's inaction...or they know there will be action. Otherwise I cannot explain BJP's maun-vrath...why don't they unleash the lion-of-gujarat to do some plain speaking? The only way UPA will act is if they see signs of hindu-consolidation against minority-appeasement-politics (they assume the minorities oppose war with pakistan... i cannot see a worse enemy for the muslims that the congress.. congress assumes they are traitors) as someone mentioned earlier on this forum. If anyone wants action against mumbai carnage, donate/join the BJP this time... maybe we can raise money to take out front page ads supporting PM Modi. We need a few hawks at the top (preferably with military backgrounds, like in israel.. makes a lot of difference as you can see from their response). The ONLY thing political parties in India seem to be interested in is preserving their gaddi... we need to hit them where it hurts...do not assume they will work for the citizens if we dont light up their rear ends.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby abhishekpr » 28 Dec 2008 12:53

Arun_S wrote:Frontline: The American Pipe-Dream
The US never considered India 'special' as we were made to believe

M.K. Bhadrakumar

Islamabad has drawn the 'red line'. It ably took the 'pressure' from the United States on the Mumbai attacks, and is seen as adopting a 'principled position': India must provide evidence; Pakistan cannot hand over to India any of its nationals; no foreign agencies will be allowed to interrogate Pakistani nationals on its soil.

Alongside, Islamabad launched its own 'initiatives': a joint investigative mechanism and a high-level team to travel to Delhi. Islamabad says Delhi's green signal is awaited. Indeed, it promptly acted on the United Nations Security Council call, which was what India demanded as per US advice.

With its vast experience in dealing with Washington, Islamabad is concluding that US 'pressure' has run its course. Attention will soon turn to the gala ceremony in Washington on January 20 for a historic transfer of power. Unless Pakistan precipitates tension, time is not far off before the international community urges India to engage Pakistan in a spirit of dialogue.

India ponders, 'What now'? It put its strategic partnership with the US to the litmus test and is dismayed at the result. India conducted over 50 military exercises with the US over recent years but they couldn't forestall the act of war on Mumbai or help track down the mentors of the terrorists. India was sold a dream—that Washington was determined to make it a first class world power. The dream lies broken. The carpetbaggers who peddled the dream are nowhere to be seen.

.....


Arun Sir!

The US always acts in its own self interest. It was upon us to demonstrate where US interests lie. Had India shown determination and taken a decisive action (Remember Kargil?), US would have been forced to reign in Pakistan to ensure they did not escalate war beyond a certain point and hurt US interests in the region. Since it was India that did not have the spine to act quickly & decisively, it was in US interests to urge India to show restraint. They say that even God helps only those who help themselves. This time it was Pakistan that helped itself wriggle out of this situation. There is no point begging and howling fowl when you yourself do not have the will to act.

I don't know how many of you are aware of this Orkut community: "Spine-Less Prime Minister" started a few years ago. Since I'm now a staunch follower of MMS, I can only appeal & beg & request you all to join the community.
Last edited by abhishekpr on 28 Dec 2008 14:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby John Snow » 28 Dec 2008 12:59

Where are our jokers like so called Bishma Pitamaha and his chelas who were (s) pouting wisdom of aligning with US in the new world order?
Under this stupid MMS we have burnt bridges with Russia, Iran, and got kicked in the back by Rice and unkil.
There is more of problem with idiots in Nai delhi than the terrorists from TSP.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Rishi » 28 Dec 2008 13:35

Chaps,

No more gratuitous abuse at GoI functionaries (PM, RM , HM xM). This is not the BR way. Anyone crossing the lakshman rekha will have to take a forced sanyas.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby SaiK » 28 Dec 2008 13:50

poor man's tool is abuse.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby abhishekpr » 28 Dec 2008 14:25

Edited my post in compliance.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Chandragupta » 28 Dec 2008 15:06

Vikram_S wrote:


napunsak GOI tells another country to be similarly napunsak

this GOI does not know meaning of shame and izzat

aur hamare pure desh ko apne besharmi se sharminda kar rahen hain


[/quote]

Chill. This statement from GoI does'nt mean anything. Even in the hey days of Israel-India relationship under the NDA, India regularly issued statements that were sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Just like Russia is telling us to show restraint & not go to war, India says we condemn Israel's action, but do we really? :lol: Off the record, our guys would be calling & congratulating Israelis.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Chandragupta » 28 Dec 2008 15:33

samuel.chandra wrote:
Pranay wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India_Pakistan_tone_down_war_talk/articleshow/3902011.cms

I just hope that the Indian electorate throws out this spineless cabal currently "in charge" of the country in the coming national elections; for the sake of the dignity and self respect of India. :(


I think BJP will land a ton of bricks on UPA if it clearly backs down from military option. They don't seem to be making much noise. BJP would not let the issue die, if UPA backs down...so I am guessing they are not yet sure of upa's inaction...or they know there will be action. Otherwise I cannot explain BJP's maun-vrath...why don't they unleash the lion-of-gujarat to do some plain speaking? The only way UPA will act is if they see signs of hindu-consolidation against minority-appeasement-politics (they assume the minorities oppose war with pakistan... i cannot see a worse enemy for the muslims that the congress.. congress assumes they are traitors) as someone mentioned earlier on this forum. If anyone wants action against mumbai carnage, donate/join the BJP this time... maybe we can raise money to take out front page ads supporting PM Modi. We need a few hawks at the top (preferably with military backgrounds, like in israel.. makes a lot of difference as you can see from their response). The ONLY thing political parties in India seem to be interested in is preserving their gaddi... we need to hit them where it hurts...do not assume they will work for the citizens if we dont light up their rear ends.


IMO, the BJP is not making too much noise because they're afraid that if they up the ante on the UPA & PM does take military action, it will hurt BJP's chances of getting in power in the coming Lok Sabha elections. So they'd like to be seen as 'behind the government' (which will make the 'secular' channels cut them some slack as well) and at the same time, dropping a 'hard-talk' bomb here & there so that they're seen as the more strong party wrt Kaangress.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby brihaspati » 28 Dec 2008 20:21

It almost seems grotesque that our strategic gurus promised that the Indo-US nuclear deal was a prerequisite for India to become a 'balancer' in the 21st century international system. Where was it that we went so hopelessly wrong in our triumphalism? Quintessentially, what we're witnessing is that the US never really "dehyphenated" its policies towards India and Pakistan like we believed or were led to believe, or both. The US policy is to maintain stable, predictable, balanced relationships with both India and Pakistan so as to optimally pursue its regional policies as a superpower.

There was no question of the US abandoning Pakistan or elevating India in disregard of Pakistani security concerns. Pakistan is pivotal to the realisation of the US's 'Great Central Asia' strategy. Thus, building up the Pakistani power structure, including the military, is a crucial element of its regional strategy. India can never replace Pakistan in the US geostrategy, in which control of Afghanistan is a priority.


This a very superficial reading of the whole situation -and I am not sure if Mr. Bhadrakumar allows himself to be influenced by ideological commitments towards having always to demonize the US. I am no lover of US, but let us keep things in perspective. Every nation looks after its own interests - it only looks after another country's interests if doing so helps its own interests. The US pushing of the N-deal had much less to do with actual N-commerce than with building up strategic partnerships with India. In the US strategic thinking, India plays a crucial role in its long-term goal of preventing Russia+China combining with Iran to push to the Arabian Sea. It is India which has failed to use this dependence of USA on India, because of its own unpreparedness, vacillation, ideological vacillation in Islamophilia, and lack of precise long term goal about Pakistan as well as a critical tactical related question of attitude towards Islam itself in the region.

The US has used this weakness in Indian strategic thinking, to escape not only from bolstering Indian action but also has started to think that India is not ready to take decisive action against Pakistan, and India's indecision and consfusion could lead to actual botching up of any operation that India initiates and in which US could get broiled up. In US place, I would personally not even raise the question of India taking action - it could jeopardize severely the whole strategic plan given the basic confusion on Indian side with complete inertia resulting from contradictory commitments of the political forces at state power.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby samuel.chandra » 28 Dec 2008 20:39

This actually belong is the response thread. X-posting from the TSP thread.

I think we need a divided-we-fail kind organization in India that represents the Indian citizens. Right now, the political parties have divided up the pie between themselves and are just posturing for votes. The citizens of India have truly been left in the lurch (security remains on the backburner because the politicians are secure with Z+ security). We need a way to force our issues on their manifesto.

Our politicians are truly chankian. They figure that terrorism, until it affects a large section of the society simultaneously will not cause a loss of votes. So they choose the path of least resistance. Electorate of Rajasthan and Delhi need an assurance that the rest of the country will also consider terror important when they vote. Terror has to be made a national issue (its easy... pretty much every part of the country has been hit by TSP terror. we just need to display the pattern). I think the media is doing its part (TimesOfIndia is doing a good job from what I see). Noone is going to act on our behalf... we will have to take up this issue (this is similar to our government expecting the rest of the world to fix our issues). Indian citizens also have this "koi kuch karo bhai" attitude. If we can get front page ads in papers read by the voters (not papers read by the middle class.. because they dont vote), then we have a decent chance of getting this on the agenda. Any other suggestions are welcome (does anyone know of organizations like divided we fail in India).

http://www.petitiononline.com/MUMx2611/petition.html


-----------------------------
From their website:
Our Mascot

Is he a donkey or an elephant? Red or Blue?

Champ is all the above, and he's the official spokesperson for all those who are tired of partisan gridlock in Washington. Champ feels health care and financial security are two of the most critical problems we're facing as a nation. They're not Republican or Democratic issues, they're American issues; and both have been ignored for far too long. Champ is working tirelessly to ignite public awareness of these issues and the Divided We Fail movement so politicians take action and solve these problems for every American.

----------------------

brihaspati wrote:The electoral angle in the inaction of the GOI, is the impression that Indian voters have given of "unconcern" with "terror" - as manifested in Rajasthan and Delhi. This allows the GOI to think that they can dither on taking action - it also makes them free of any risk of "Muslim" votes retaliating against taking action in Pakistan. They know that in the coming elections it is all of "anti-Hindu" votes that they will need to consolidate to stay on in power. (Its a pity - for the Muslims would not have dared vote against the Cong now - as that would stamped them forever - and they would have voted for Cong anyway, even if their theological networks would have been gnashing their teeth in choice Urdu/Arabic within the shadows of their mosques or madrassahs - but still formally ordering their flock to vote for the Cong, as otherwise it would be difficult for Islam to survive in India).

Apart from US+RUS+CHINI+EU manipulations, and domestic Left+Mus pressures, we should add the electorate of Rajasthan and Delhi as contributors to this special "startegic response" of the GOI to TSP.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby samuel.chandra » 28 Dec 2008 20:47

I agree. Noone in the right mind should help India out if we don't have the balls to take action. I wouldn't blame the US. They just couldn't take the dithering from the Indian side anymore and ended it... either do something or shut up. Chanakya, SunTsu and Machiavelli shd be made mandatory reading for all politicians in India.

brihaspati wrote: The US has used this weakness in Indian strategic thinking, to escape not only from bolstering Indian action but also has started to think that India is not ready to take decisive action against Pakistan, and India's indecision and consfusion could lead to actual botching up of any operation that India initiates and in which US could get broiled up. In US place, I would personally not even raise the question of India taking action - it could jeopardize severely the whole strategic plan given the basic confusion on Indian side with complete inertia resulting from contradictory commitments of the political forces at state power.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby James B » 28 Dec 2008 21:09

There are at least four views that could be considered in the context of striking Porkis

1) India is waiting for Unkil to find alternative routes for the NATO supply chain, once done, GoI might gather some balls and go on an offensive.

2) India letting Porkis bleed economically because of their troop movements from west to east. If there is no offensive from India, all the expectations of TSPA will go down the drain and have to move back to west side. There are two things that need to be observed, high state of alert and troop movement = loss of economy and Talibunnies wreaking havoc on the western side (already happening in SWAT) after the TSPA troop movements towards east and occupying more territory eventually leading to loss for TSPA on both ends if war doesn't take place. Once TSPA lowers its guard, point 3 (below) might happen.

3) India is waiting till our Army complete its preparations for striking TSP and might happen just before elections so kangrease can score some electoral points vis-a-vis BJP.

4) Current GoI lost balls in perpetuity.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Baljeet » 28 Dec 2008 21:18

Vivek_A wrote:Arindam: why are you posting this BS?

The ISIS study states that Pakistan has five functional ballistic missiles today, while India has a single Prithvi battlefield ballistic missile. “Pakistan also has a defined nuclear command authority, while India is still groping to define its slogan of minimum nuclear deterrence. The question India must now answer is whether it should be satisfied with its conventional military superiority and allow Pakistan to maintain the parity it has achieved in the nuclear field or instead raise its nuclear and missile capacity citing a threat from China as the major justification.”


Vivek
How is Arindam post a BS? Pakistanis have defined their NCA while we as a nation are shitting in our khakis at the very thought of pakis using pre-emptive strike. We have no defined NCA, no strucutre, no integrated command that will coordinate all three services.

What we have is a (Baljeet u are a valued member...exercise restraint please - JE Menon) who has gone mad in kissing candles, dropping his pagri and bending over. He does give a new meaning to cowardice. In future when meaning of the word coward will be looked up we will find these Hon'able people, the elected representatives--Pagal Gandu Sardar PM of India, Chutiya Home Minister Patil, Antulay Like Minister who can abuse the majority of this nation because he belongs to a minority. We are living in a nation and times where a Minority can declare a war on majority but Majority cannot retialiate back due the accusation of exploitation, prejudice, discrimination, and most of all it is a well known fact majority of Hindus much rather go to their temples and do Yagna, Havan, than to fight, gets adapted to living within this environment. It is the same populace who questions why we spend money on Military, files PIL at drop of hat, keeps dragging the signing of contracts, keep opening investigation after investigation because his party did not get fair share of the loot.
As a matter of fact pakistani Nukes and Submarine force is so far ahead in case of war they will win this war. Indian Leadership knows that, thats why they are cowering under desk, running scared to every capital of this world under the disguise of "mouting diplomatic pressure". These Idiots of India raised the war hysteria after 26/11 but never realized if they have the men, material and resources to fight and win this war. Now they have been given an honest assessment, they want to 'save face' without losing election. Pakistanis know each and every strength and weakness of Indian Military, they methodically signed their military agreements and purchased weapons. Pakistanis know they are quantitative disadvantage with India in Numbers on ground forces level, hence the 3rd option of Jihadis who can hold up a division level movement. Indian navy has 155 ships but their force multiplier is a rust bucket that sits in harbor more than in high seas, Indian Submarine force has 16 subs, 8 of those subs are barely sea worthy forget about them being battle worthy. Out of other six, 3 subs will be guarding eastern coast, 2 subs will be supporting the battle ships, 3 subs who will try to launch attack can be neutralized by their agosta, since agosta can dive deeper and has better torpedoes.
If anyone thinks these attacks are just imagined up with in last year or year before that is delusional. Pakis had a plan and they are executing their plan with clinical precision. Whereas this Bharat Mata is running like scared deer away from a rabid crazy dog.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby samuel.chandra » 28 Dec 2008 21:38

Baljeetji, you are overestimating TSP military strength.

If mumbai was a planned attack, I think it was a bad plan.
- The timing... just before elections
- Choice of targets.. UK/US/Israeli citizens. Now everyone has a common enemy.
I think this was a repeat of kargil style irrational attack that will have a long term negative impact on pakis.

Interesting choice of words:
- These Idiots of India
- Whereas this Bharat Mata


Baljeet wrote:
Vivek_A wrote:Arindam: why are you posting this BS?

The ISIS study states that Pakistan has five functional ballistic missiles today, while India has a single Prithvi battlefield ballistic missile. “Pakistan also has a defined nuclear command authority, while India is still groping to define its slogan of minimum nuclear deterrence. The question India must now answer is whether it should be satisfied with its conventional military superiority and allow Pakistan to maintain the parity it has achieved in the nuclear field or instead raise its nuclear and missile capacity citing a threat from China as the major justification.”


Vivek
How is Arindam post a BS? Pakistanis have defined their NCA while we as a nation are shitting in our khakis at the very thought of pakis using pre-emptive strike. We have no defined NCA, no strucutre, no integrated command that will coordinate all three services.

What we have is a God Damn F##kin Sardar who has gone mad in kissing candles, dropping his pagri and bending over. He does give a new meaning to cowardice. In future when meaning of the word coward will be looked up we will find these Hon'able people, the elected representatives--Pagal Gandu Sardar PM of India, Chutiya Home Minister Patil, Antulay Like Minister who can abuse the majority of this nation because he belongs to a minority. We are living in a nation and times where a Minority can declare a war on majority but Majority cannot retialiate back due the accusation of exploitation, prejudice, discrimination, and most of all it is a well known fact majority of Hindus much rather go to their temples and do Yagna, Havan, than to fight, gets adapted to living within this environment. It is the same populace who questions why we spend money on Military, files PIL at drop of hat, keeps dragging the signing of contracts, keep opening investigation after investigation because his party did not get fair share of the loot.
As a matter of fact pakistani Nukes and Submarine force is so far ahead in case of war they will win this war. Indian Leadership knows that, thats why they are cowering under desk, running scared to every capital of this world under the disguise of "mouting diplomatic pressure". These Idiots of India raised the war hysteria after 26/11 but never realized if they have the men, material and resources to fight and win this war. Now they have been given an honest assessment, they want to 'save face' without losing election. Pakistanis know each and every strength and weakness of Indian Military, they methodically signed their military agreements and purchased weapons. Pakistanis know they are quantitative disadvantage with India in Numbers on ground forces level, hence the 3rd option of Jihadis who can hold up a division level movement. Indian navy has 155 ships but their force multiplier is a rust bucket that sits in harbor more than in high seas, Indian Submarine force has 16 subs, 8 of those subs are barely sea worthy forget about them being battle worthy. Out of other six, 3 subs will be guarding eastern coast, 2 subs will be supporting the battle ships, 3 subs who will try to launch attack can be neutralized by their agosta, since agosta can dive deeper and has better torpedoes.
If anyone thinks these attacks are just imagined up with in last year or year before that is delusional. Pakis had a plan and they are executing their plan with clinical precision. Whereas this Bharat Mata is running like scared deer away from a rabid crazy dog.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Chinmayanand » 28 Dec 2008 22:01

If say, the porkis, launch two nuclear missiles at Delhi, then the entire political and military establishment kisses its @$$ goodbye.What next?What kind of setup do we have to retaliate if we have one?Just imagine, India without cabinet ,chiefs of armed forces,headquarters destroyed ... The answer should not be that porkis won't do it....i do not doubt the porki resolve..they are suicidal and can do anything...
This post can be moved to the appropriate thread...
Last edited by Chinmayanand on 28 Dec 2008 22:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Ananth » 28 Dec 2008 22:01

What I don't understand is in the list of prescriptives of diplomatic offensive why do we insist on closing down our embassy in TSP? That way you loose a platform for communication and have to depend on third party monkeys for communication. Why cut your own options?

The current GoI's actions cannot be explained away as napunsak, impotence and other sexual references. There must definitely be military and other constraints on GoI. The best response for terrorist strike is not war. Moreover for surgical strikes, their main ingredient is surprise. What is the point of striking TSP right now when they are expecting precisely such a response? The most effective response would be the one that would be delivered quietly at time, place and format which they are not expecting. And GoI is not going to announce to public what they might do. We will only hear about the results when the Pakistanis start crying about it pointing fingers towards India. However that is going to take some time, which this government does not have. The most stupid thing to do right now would be to launch war or even aerial attacks when TSP is preparing itself for such strikes. However, if Pakistanis could be motivated to kill each other I don't have a problem.

The present government does not have time on its side, only 100 more days. So they cannot take chances when there is significant possibility of escalation of war. BJP has been behaving sanely by not raising the pitch and constricting the freedom of GoI. The last 100 days better be spent on sprucing up internal security, gathering intel on the operatives, marking up the targets and allowing Pakistanis to do what they do the best: killing each other. A precise and successful op when you are ready is much more preferable than a botched up op taken under duress.

Start screwing TSP economically if not militarily. The diplomatic pressure must be increased to postpone or constrain the financial support coming from multilateral agencies.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby Chandragupta » 28 Dec 2008 22:11

Baljeet, if you are so embarassed about being an Indian then I suggest you move to the west & enjoy a happy life abroad. That mention of Bharat Mata was particularly offending. I know you are pissed off, but there can be no justification of using such words.

Hindus are not cowards, we never were. You seem to buy the Pakistani propaganda that muslims are fairer, taller, stronger & more courageous than Hindus. Abuse the FHLs & the politicians as much as you want, but to generalize the Hindu society is unfair. Furthermore, your assessment of Porki nukes & navy is insanely overestimated. Indian navy has an almost double figure advantage in firepower over what they call the Pakistani Navy.

You need to calm down. We all should channel our rage in the right direction, setting up of a nationalistic youth party for example. :)

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Postby milindc » 28 Dec 2008 22:14

Samuel,
What Baljeet states about Indian procurement process is true. It is also correct that Paki Agostas will hold advantage against the Indian subs. Where he is wrong is that he validating the ISIS viewpoint on Paki capability. ISIS is run by David Albright who is on Pakistan payroll.

Having said that, we fight with what we have and I have complete faith in Indian armed forces to take of Pakis. We can't get a better opportunity than this ........


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