Terror Attacks on Mumbai-II

[SwamyG]

India Terror Attacks Point to Need for Stronger U.S.-India Counterterrorism Cooperation
That is the gist from Heritage Foundation {an American conservative think tank }

Although Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari has made several peace gestures toward India since he took office a few months ago, many Indians question whether the Pakistani security establishment supports his efforts to improve relations.Without backing from Pakistan’s still-powerful army, Zardari’s efforts at confidence building will have little real impact on boosting India-Pakistan ties, especially if India believes the Pakistani security establishment is fomenting violence against India.

[sunilUpa]

Shreemanji:
Good to see you posting.
Of course, as he says, the Kinder-and-Gentler PC Version of the one-stop Problem Formulation and Solution is

You are too kind. But I nitpick,

Give Peace a Chance. Destroy the Pakistan Army

I believe the universal truth, as I was taught, omits the "the" and "Army".

Amen,

Give Peace a Chance, Destroy Pakistan.

[Shreeman]

I do not believe that ....

"Talk softly, but..."? †






† Ps: Don't have a big stick.

[Anant]

If I may slightly modify,

Give Peace a chance, Nuke Pakistan. I am going to try to superimpose the Castle Bravo test as it would if it happened over Karachi or Islamabad. Let's do it.

[anishns]

First of all I am not taking anything away from these true sons of India but, are you sure that they have thermal imaging, night vision equipment. I do believe that they could have performed their jobs more efficiently yet minimizing risk to their lives if they did possess sophisticated equipment. They do not lack in spirit but, they do lack eqpt.

I saw some time ago pictures on this forum of some security guards assigned to guard politicos. It seemed they had much better eqpt. with kneepads, modern communication sets and weapons etc.

Anyway, this is just my opinion....please don't take it personally

Asprinzl, I would advise you to take even your sources with some skepticism. Do not interpret that as criticism. Just urging caution.

The NSG units are equipped with both thermal and II NVG and weapons sights. That we haven't seen them does not mean they were not used.

That's a warning for all of us: because we didn't see it, doesn't mean something wasn't used.

Regarding the deployment by the MHA, again I would caution against any rush to conclusions. We do know that the briefing was inadequate. What we probably do know is that delay was unlikely to be produce a better result.

Second guessing by experts sitting thousands of miles away is unhelpful in the extreme.

As an aside, witness the stellar performance by the FBI at Waco and Ruby Ridge, the Russians at Beslan (and even the Moscow theatre) and Britain after 7/11 when the only person they shot was a Brazilian !

[parsuram]

paki terrorist army will no more back any peace gestures of zardari than it would fck itself. If ISI is indeed going to Dilli, the thing to do is to ask them to hand over Saeed, lashkar leadership at Wagha. End of dialog.

[adharia]

Why does everyone keep saying that the pigs are well trained and highly motivated etc etc.....for propoganda sake why doesnt someone come up and say that that pig pee'ed in his pants when he saw NSG. Atleast that will reduce the general respect they get in their KAUM.

[Surya]

Avram

Tell you the same thing I tell my Israeli friends - Sometimes you Israelis tend to get carried away by your own myth as no one challenges your screw ups.

one could bring up hostage disasters, Jenin f@ck ups, etc even with unlimited firepower.

But our men have died and we have a lot more to do then argue with geniuses from other countries who do not know the situation.

Witness how long it took to gain control of Colombine with 2 school kids.

regards

surya

[enqyoob]

Sunilji, a lot of this comes from typical Western reporting. During the festivities in Sierra Leone, for instance, we saw how the BBC and other british journalists' reporting aggravated relations. They were eventually humiliated when their entire Marine force surrendered without a shot fired, to a bunch of drugge-out teenagers sucking lollipops, who neatly ambushed them. Had to be rescued by the Indian soldiers who were there as part of the UN forces, who went in and smashed the bad guys.

In this case, the Israelis were permitted to send in a medical team, plus, I am sure, a few advisors. Now again with all respect to our Israeli friends, "Silent, humble" have never been terms that one uses to describe them. So they make some loud statement AS PART OF A MORE DETAILED AND NUANCED EXPLANATION, and the dorks report the most inflammatory excerpt.

It would be so easy to take cheap shots of the Israeli "success" in eradicating terrorism (what's it up to now? 700 suicide bombings? 7000? 70,000? does anyone count any more?) and their country is run like one big military camp. Ask anyone who returns from a business trip (recently I heard it from some US Army people, all of "proper culture" etc) and they say "Never want to keep going back to a place where I am stopped and searched every 10 feet"

What is truly unprecedented is that through design, accident or incompetence, we saw a whole massive terrorist attack broadcast on live color television worldwide. No censorship, no sense, no security.

And what I saw was how a free, decent nation reacts when innocents are attacked by Paki terrorists. No one could have done any better. The terrorists lost dismally - some of their "suicide" attackers were taken alive. Their communications were intercepted and traced. They made the mistake of opening their mouths, thereby blowing their "Deccan" cover. And all said and done, all they did was to show that they are cowardly gandoos who shoot little children, but can't face real soldiers.

IOW, Pakistanis, one and all. Good luck to the Israelis. I hereby give them full permission to avenge this horrible kidnap-murder of their citizens. Will the Israeli retribution against pakistan be color telecast too, I wonder? So that everyone can see how it is done right?

Indian authorities are USUALLY far more circumspect, and fit the description of "professionals" much better.

[Sanjay]

Yes they do have both. In fact, if you recall the Week special on the NSG a few years ago (maybe 2002 ?) there was a photograph of an NSG sniper with a II weapon sight for his PSG-1. The diffusion of NV gear in the forces has been dramatically enhanced in the last 5-10 years.

HHTIs are now very widely used by Indian security forces - well Central forces at any rate. In fact, BEL has a tie-up with Elta for manufacturing them locally.

The NSG is reasonably well equipped as are the Marcos. Do not think these forces lack equipment - yes they may lack some very high-end items - but the basic gear is good.

[anishns]

Thanks Sanjay. Makes me feel a little better knowing that atleast our elite forces are not handicapped!

Yes they do have both. In fact, if you recall the Week special on the NSG a few years ago (maybe 2002 ?) there was a photograph of an NSG sniper with a II weapon sight for his PSG-1. The diffusion of NV gear in the forces has been dramatically enhanced in the last 5-10 years.

HHTIs are now very widely used by Indian security forces - well Central forces at any rate.

[parsuram]

Thank you N- needed said.

Fwiw, Indian response will come.

[nkumar]

Did 24X7 channels give away commando plans?

Vikram Sood, former chief of India’s Research and Analysis Wing, said lots needed to be self-censored. “It was horrific,” he said. “The terrorists would have got to know exactly what was happening.”

The visuals were shown despite a Thursday night advisory from the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting asking news channels not to report on operational details. The advisory was issued after Home Ministry officials complained that channels were indirectly helping militants keep tabs on the security forces’ operation.

Government officials said that the militants in the Taj and Oberoi hotels were getting details of the movement of security forces around the hotels on Wednesday night from Pakistan through satellite phones and laptops, even though cable television lines were snapped in hotels on Wednesday night itself.

“The satellite phone intercepts indicated that television was being used to provide information to militants inside the hotels till Thursday evening when the government issued an advisory,” said and I&B ministry official. Added an official: “The militants knew from where the security forces were zeroing in.” That could have slowed down the operation.

News channels were also advised not to show the bodies of victims till the operation was over as it could give a boost to the morale of the militants inside the hotels. “We also asked the channels not to show the burning hotel rooms repeatedly. If they were shown, then the logo of repeat telecast should be clearly mentioned,” an official said.

Though senior ministry officials described the TV coverage overall as restrained and much better than in earlier times, there were lapses.

All these journos/news channels need to have a session with MHA/NSG/IA.

[SwamyG]

What it takes to fight a war inside skyscrapers

The Taj Mahal hotel, with its combination of Moorish and Florentine architecture, is a wonderful place to hang out in, sipping coffee in the Sea Lounge or having a relaxed drink in the Apollo Bar on a nice clear November day. But the same inviting structure became a nightmarish catacomb when it turned into a war zone on November 26.

“The art of urban warfare itself is new and fighting inside a large skyscraper is newer still,” says Captain Raghu Raman, a former army man and now an intelligence consultant. Conventional battles are normally fought in plains, jungles or hills. Over time, thumb rules have evolved on how many people it would take to defeat an entrenched enemy in such terrains. “Typically, in the plains or a jungle you would need three men for every enemy person already entrenched there. On the hills, the ratio changes and you need five men to take out one person from the enemy side,” says a Major in the Indian Army on the condition of anonymity. He has seen commando action in Kashmir.

In a high-rise like the Oberoi Trident hotel or the Taj Mahal Tower, these calculations go out of the window. “A small group of people can engage a force that may be ten times larger than them,” says the Major. A hotel with 27 floors like the Oberoi or as many rooms as Taj—565 in all—offers the enemy immense space to manoeuvre,” says a Lieutenant Colonel in the Indian Army who has served in Africa and in North East India. This poses huge challenges for the Indian Army to take on the terrorists who are holed up in the Taj or the Oberoi. To understand this, consider a situation from Kashmir that has a minor resemblance to what has unfolded in Mumbai.

“In Kashmir, we would get a tip off in a place like, say Kupwara, that militants were holed up in a house. We would just go and surround a wider area. Then we would make announcements to get the civilians out of the area. Since the houses there are maximum two or three floors, we would then lay a siege and then we would exchange firepower. In due course, we would enter the house from the top through a helicopter lift to get the militants. Because the houses were of a smaller area it was easier to do this than in Taj or Oberoi,” says the Major. In a large hotel, the terrorists can move from room to room and from floor to floor. “Typically, the National Security Guard (NSG) uses a team of four members as a basic unit in such operations. So two members attack, while the other two provide cover. In a hotel like the Taj, with hundreds of rooms, you will need at least four people per room to hold the rooms to ensure that terrorists don’t retake the rooms that have been cleaned,” says the Major.

The irony of the situation is to be appreciated. While the terrorist has enormous space to operate in, the Army has constraints. The first constraint is clearly the large number of personnel required. The tactics too get affected.

Technically, there is a three-step sequence in conventional warfare. Step one is to use the artillery to pound the enemy and destroy the buildings. In step two, tanks and missiles are used to shock the enemy. The last step is to cordon off the area and lay siege so that the enemy is not able to replenish food and ammunition supplies. This leads to a drop in morale and eventual surrender. In a high-rise, none of these tactics work.

“Even cordoning or surrounding the enemy doesn’t work because the enemy inside Taj or Oberoi has no fixed defenses, so how do you attack him,” says the Major. So in the Oberoi for instance, the terrorists kept moving between the 16th and the 18th floor, through staircases and elevator shafts. “It is very draining for commandos to secure a floor, move up and then to hear gun fire again from a lower floor,” says the Major.

The short answer to this problem? Stealth and technology. Most operations against an enemy inside a building need an entry from the top of the building, simply because the lower reaches are usually well defended. “You can’t have a situation where you have the ground forces cordoning off the building moving back or the fire engines moving away because that just gives away the motive,” says the Lieutenant Colonel.

If stealth is achieved then at least three pieces of technology are a must: a sniper rifle, a thermal imaging device and finally a stun gun or gas gun. The sniper rifle is for precision shots because if there are hostages involved then machine gun would just end up killing even the hostages. “Indian army uses Dragunov sniper rifles that are incredibly accurate,” says an army source.

Then, of course, there is the use of thermal imaging equipment. This device can use the heat generated from the human body to “see” through walls. So this equipment can be used from outside the hotel to estimate the number of terrorists. “Indian armed forces have both types of equipment: fixed and portable. Fixed thermal imagers have a range of 5 kilometres in open ground. The portable ones are like binoculars and have a range of 500 metres. Even inside a hotel, they can see through at least four-five rooms quite easily,” says the Major.

There is also the option of using a gas that can slow down the reflexes of the terrorists. The problem is that old people may not be able to handle the effect of this gas in case they are hostage.

But this form of warfare is relatively new for India. It is the job of a specialised unit like the NSG. The NSG has four units, two of which are anti-hijack and anti-hostage and they are the ones ideally positioned to take on such an assignment in India. “In the Oberoi and Taj event, there was a delay in bringing the NSG for sure and there were far too many agencies trying to tackle the situation. Only NSG has the expertise to do this,” says the Major. India would do well to swell its rank if the events in Mumbai are anything to go by.

Shishir Prasad is Deputy Editor with the new business magazine to be launched by Network18 in alliance with Forbes, USA

[sunilUpa]

Watch CNN (US version)..Sandy Berger and others are on urging 'caution' before pointing fingers..

Wolf Blitzer asking whether rogue elements in Pakistani Army/ISI may have caused it?

Time to say 'No thank you' to all assistance from US/UK and do what we have to. They are only bothered about their body count in A'Stan.

This is India's time to say:

'You are either with us or against us'

Either you chose to side with 1 billion peaceful citizens of world or 150 million terrorists.

Make your choice now. We will survive without you. Will you survive without us?

[Rahul Shukla]

All these journos/news channels need to have a session with MHA/NSG/IA.

Or just be moved 1 km away from the scene by a team of 100 pandus equipped with straight-of-the-art QiMei's (sticks). Simple, no?

[sunilUpa]

Sigh...I lost my battle with my Son on who gets to watch TV. Please do post summary of CNN proceedings..Western gov. are getting real nervous. It is time to put pressure on GoI, by telecons to News Channels, Twitter, blogs, demanding action.

[Bharat]

There has never been a case of multiple terror situations within kms in an urban environment. The entire Indian security apparatus was caught unawares, and I would not say that our response was the best we could do at the time.

Once it's over, we should do a synopsis of the attacks and develop plans to combat militants (keeping in mind that these guys are ultra trained hard core forces) in a multiple hostage situation in a single city or multiple cities.

Jai Hind !!

[Gerard]

Al-Qaeda websites rejoice over Mumbai attacks

[vsudhir]

End of the day question remains regardless of what phoren media/ govts/talking heads say, what is India going to do about the cancerous Pakistan problem?

Options seem limited from my rather limited vantage point, admittedly. If going to war is not an option, there might be something short of war that can be done? Can a deployment in Afghanistan help? Will put pressure on TSP's western border and undercut Kiyani's tactical brilliance that the eastern border will occupy TSPA's 100% attn then on?

Also, quietly sending a message that messing with Yindia can involve a response involving the IWT could, just could, knock some sense into them perhaps? Of course, the right way to do that is to setup a commission to study desertification and salination in Pakistan and offer the said commission's help in conducting studies inside Pakistan.

[Anant]

Can't we economically choke these idiots? Seriously, how much trade is there? Can't we starve them?

[JTull]

Arrested terrorist says gang hoped to get away

The gang of terrorists who wreaked mayhem in Mumbai for three days were made to believe by their Lashkar bosses that they were not being
sent on a suicide mission and that they would be coming back alive.

In a sensational disclosure made by Ajmal, the jihadi nabbed alive by Mumbai cops, the group had planned to sail out on Thursday. Their recruiters had even charted out the return route for them and stored it on the GPS device which they had used to navigate their way to the Mumbai shoreline.

This suggests that the terrorists were willing to undertake a mission which they knew would be very risky, but not necessarily suicidal.

Sources said that the bait of safe return must have been used by the recruiters to convince the wavering among the group to join the audacious plot against Mumbai.

Ajmal made another important disclosure: that all terrorists were trained in marine warfare along with the special course Daura-e-Shifa conducted by the Lashkar-e-Toiba in what at once transforms the nature of the planning from a routine terror strike and into a specialized raid by commandos.

Battle-hardened ATS officials are surprised by the details of the training the terrorists were put through before being despatched for the macabre mission. This was very different from a terrorist attack, and amounted to an offensive from the seam, said a source.

Ajmal has revealed the name of his fellow jihadis all Pakistani citizens as Abu Ali, Fahad, Omar, Shoaib, Umer, Abu Akasha, Ismail, Abdul Rahman (Bara) and Abdul Rahman (Chhota).

The account of Ajmal also strengthens the doubt of the complicity of powerful elements in the Pakistani establishment. According to him, the group set off on November 21 from an isolated creek near Karachi without the deadly cargo of arms and ammunition they were to use against the innocents in Mumbai. The group received arms and ammunition on board a large Pakistani vessel which picked them up the following day. The vessel, whose ownership is now the subject of an international probe, had four Pakistanis apart from the crew.

A day later, they came across an Indian-owned trawler, Kuber, which was promptly commandeered on the seas. Four of the fishermen who were on the trawler were killed, but its skipper, or tandel in fishermen lingo, Amarjit Singh, was forced to proceed towards India. Amarjit was killed the next day, and Ismail the terrorist who was killed at Girgaum Chowpaty took the wheel.

A trained sailor, Ismail used the GPS to reach Mumbai coast on November 26. The group, however, slowed down its advance as they had reached during the day time while the landing was planned after dusk. The group shifted to inflatable boats, before disembarking at Badhwar Park in Cuffe Parade.

From there, they mandated to kill indiscriminately, particularly white foreign tourists, and spare Muslims split up into five batches. Two of them Ismail and Ajmal took a taxi to Victoria Terminus. Three other batches of two each headed for Oberoi Hotel, Cafe Leopold and Nariman House. The remaining four went to Taj Hotel.

[JTull]

Can't we economically choke these idiots? Seriously, how much trade is there? Can't we starve them?

Now, someone is talking. Let's start by telling all in the IMF consortium raising $7.5Bln for them that they are either with us or against us.

[ramana]

A lessons learned thread has been started already.

Zeetv says Amitabh Bhachhan's bolg was very jingositic. Can some one do a synopsis of his remarks.

Thanks,ramana

vsudhir, There are things India can do and they are. Just give it some time. Need to make a clear cut case and not half assed as after nau do gyara. Very clear there will be TSP coup in march 2009 time frame. They already are making it clear. First Kabul Embassy and now Mumbai terrorist attack. These are irregular Army of Allah types of TSP.

When I read the reports of the fisherfolk remarking how chikna the terrorists looked I suddenly recalled the reports of the 911 attackers shaving their bodies etc. These are jihadis no doubt about that. And TSP FM in India was dead give away of their complicity.

[Rahul Shukla]

Ticker in IBN Live:

Manmohan to Pak PM - India has hard evidence

Anticipated ticker on Pak TV:

Gillani to Indian PM - Evidence not hard enough

[SBajwa]

This is my message to the Indian Prime Minister. This Shabad was written by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji after the martyrdom of his father Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur ji at Delhi by Aurungzeb.

Tilak Janju Rakha Prabh Taaka
Prabhu (God) watched the protector of the Tilak and Janeu

Kino Baddo Kalu Main Saaka
The greatest Sacrifice during the times of Kaluyug.

I can along and post the whole poem that Guru Gobind Singh wrote to commemorate the martyrdom of his father.

So! when you negotiate with the NaPakistanis please keep this in mind!! this war is not 50 years old this is more than 500 years old.

Guru Nanak Dev tried to reconcile it without failure and thus Guru Hargobind created the military which Guru Gobind Singh reshaped by making it a disciplined army of Khalsa.

You having a turban on your head and being the leader of the largest democracy in the world has a perfect oppurtunity to fulfill the cause of protecting and getting rid of the threat to the Indian motherland that all Indians have been yearning for thousands of years.

[Anantha]

We have received an email from a Jewish friend on the following.
An employee at the Nariman house escaped with the 2 year old baby of the Rabbi during the terrorist attack and saved the baby. The Rabbi and his wife were kiled by the pigs later.
Several unsung heroes and Indian common man's big heart are the positives of the last two days.

[Gerard]

Amitabh Bachchan's blog
http://bigb.bigadda.com/

My pain has been the sight and plight of my innocent and vulnerable and completely insecure countrymen, facing the wrath of this terror attack. And my anger has been at the ineptitude of the authorities that have been ordained to look after us. I have simply loved and endorsed the sentiments expressed by one of those that came on for comments on the Arnab reportage, Suhel Seth. They were strong, precise and most apt. And of course I have had the greatest pride in those from the forces that have and continue to fight for our freedom. Brilliant officers and police personnel have laid down their lives for us. I can only but salute them and respect their sincerity in the call of duty.

And for God’s sake, let us stop reiterating that cliched ”Sprit of Mumbai” retort. Yes Mumbai is strong and resilient and shall not be cowed down by any such occurrence. But let us not conveniently use it as our cover sheet, pull it over our heads and go off to sleep. Because that is what has been happening every time. Incidents of grave disaster have continued to be camouflaged with ‘oh, this is Mumbai, we have a great spirit, we will spring back’. Fine, we will, of course. But who is assuring us that the disaster will not !!

As an Indian, I need to live in my own land, on my own soil with dignity and without fear. And I need an assurance on that.

I am ashamed to say this and not afraid to share this now with the rest of the cyber world, that last night, as the events of the terror attack unfolded in front of me I did something for the first time and one that I had hoped never ever to be in a situation to do.

Before retiring for the night, I pulled out my licensed .32 revolver, loaded it and put it under my pillow. For a very disturbed sleep.

[sunilUpa]

Ramana Ji, like most of us BigB is also watching Arnab...and admiring his work. Here is an excerpt,

The entire day has been spent in front of the TV and watching in anguish and in anger the proceedings on the streets of Mumbai. I have been riveted to Times Now and to the incredible anchoring of Arnab. He has been at it non stop for almost 24 hrs; reporting, discussing, interviewing, taking opinion, tirelessly.

My pain has been the sight and plight of my innocent and vulnerable and completely insecure countrymen, facing the wrath of this terror attack. And my anger has been at the ineptitude of the authorities that have been ordained to look after us. I have simply loved and endorsed the sentiments expressed by one of those that came on for comments on the Arnab reportage, Suhel Seth. They were strong, precise and most apt. And of course I have had the greatest pride in those from the forces that have and continue to fight for our freedom. Brilliant officers and police personnel have laid down their lives for us. I can only but salute them and respect their sincerity in the call of duty.

I have been at the receiving end of a million calls and an equal number of sms’s the whole day to come live on TV or on the print media to express my views on the current situation and am being lured by words such as ’we need you to speak to express solidarity and for the people to maintain their calm’.

This is disgusting !! I will NOT do that. TELL ME AND ORDER ME INSTEAD THAT WE REQUIRE FOR EVERY INDIAN TO GET UP AND WALK INTO THE FACILITIES WHERE THE ACTION IS ON AND I WILL BE THE FIRST TO WALK. But, please do not ask me to come and make sloppy statements that will do nothing more than create viewer interest in said particular channel ! I respect what the media is doing in serving the nation with its continuous information bulletins and I admire the brave and diligent manner in which they have devoted themselves to the cause. But what they expect me do I find against my ethics and want to be excused from it.

And for God’s sake, let us stop reiterating that cliched ”Sprit of Mumbai” retort. Yes Mumbai is strong and resilient and shall not be cowed down by any such occurrence. But let us not conveniently use it as our cover sheet, pull it over our heads and go off to sleep. Because that is what has been happening every time. Incidents of grave disaster have continued to be camouflaged with ‘oh, this is Mumbai, we have a great spirit, we will spring back’. Fine, we will, of course. But who is assuring us that the disaster will not !!

As an Indian, I need to live in my own land, on my own soil with dignity and without fear. And I need an assurance on that.

I am ashamed to say this and not afraid to share this now with the rest of the cyber world, that last night, as the events of the terror attack unfolded in front of me I did something for the first time and one that I had hoped never ever to be in a situation to do.

Before retiring for the night, I pulled out my licensed .32 revolver, loaded it and put it under my pillow. For a very disturbed sleep.

bigb

[Jake]

I have no doubt at all that Indian special forces NSG, Marcos et al, and even the regular military forces are incredibly able and professional. They deserve the highest commendation bar none. They do not seek glory but only do their part for their country; which includes the ultimate sacrifice of giving their life in the line of duty. They have done their job and done it under severely restricted circumstances. No more lip service for these valiant heroes. No more political soothsayings. The Indian military deserves the highest respect from all Indians and should be held in the highest esteem and admiration. Forget cricketers, film stars and the utterly useless toothless politicians. These men are the strong silent ones who didnt flinch when asked to save the country from humiliation and political ineptitude. Indians everywhere have to stand up for these heroic men and counter the negative articles and PR that is being bandied about in the World media especially US and UK and step up positive PR in Indian media.

[Anant]

Ragunath,

That along with the IMF would be the prongs along with direct Indo-Pak trade. We can easily twist their balls without casualty (although I support bombing the living s out of them also). I have no love loss for these clowns. This is India's seminal moments. Quit cowtowing to anyone India and Indians. Time to kick some _$$. But seriously, we need to start with the economy. The beggars want a 20 billion dollar loan for their so called economy. Choke the population and starve em. Each and everyone of them.

[RavinM]

CNN starts pointing fingers on Pakistan!!

finally a few blind can see!

[ramana]

In memory of those who were killed by the terrorists:

Bhagvad Gita Chapter II verse 23.

Nainam cchindanti shastraani nainam dahati paavakah;
Na chainam kledayantyaapo na shoshayati maarutah.

23. Weapons cut It not, fire burns It not, water wets It not, wind dries It not.

COMMENTARY: The Self is partless. It is infinite and extremely subtle. So the sword cannot cut It, fire cannot burn It, wind cannot dry It.

Swami Sivananda

May they rest in peace. Or Latin "requiescat in pace"

They are eternal now.

Lets say a few prayers in whatever language and religions for the dead.

Thanks, ramana

[joshvajohn]

It is time for a strategic plan for India to work closely with US and others who are willing to cooperate and eliminate terrorising people. India should get all the details about Lakshar's operation and headquarters in Pakistan. The accuracy and other details of the places should be ready. Then along with US, Israel and including Russia organise anti terror campaign similar to one which is done in the north of Pakistan by US and Afgan forces. Get some or hire F 22 then target guided attack and then destroy those training centre within Pakistan if Pakistan itself is not able to do within given time by India. It is essential to do this so that the destroyed camps will expose pakistan. It is essential to keep this as an important option at this point. I also feel that there are more of this kind of attacks on other cities and other infrastructures are going to follow with ground based support (not necessarily with the support of Pakistan government rather by other agencies in Pakistan). There is no control of power in Pakistan and so ISI leader would behave in his own way. There are many things possible and Pakistan has an official sanction of everything that can hurt India in its business or any other form of growth. It is essential to put security of the country above the bipartisan politics in India. I still think that Manmohan singh government is very weak in taking any proactive action against terror organisations. Without which we will end up defending our people at the cost of many police, civilians and army personal.

[ramana]

JJ. Not again. Stop propaganda. Not in this thread. last and only warning.

[Prem]

This is my message to the Indian Prime Minister. This Shabad was written by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji after the martyrdom of his father Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur ji at Delhi by Aurungzeb.

Tilak Janju Rakha Prabh Taaka
Prabhu (God) watched the protector of the Tilak and Janeu

Kino Baddo Kalu Main Saaka
The greatest Sacrifice during the times of Kaluyug.

I can along and post the whole poem that Guru Gobind Singh wrote to commemorate the martyrdom of his father.

So! when you negotiate with the NaPakistanis please keep this in mind!! this war is not 50 years old this is more than 500 years old.

Guru Nanak Dev tried to reconcile it without failure and thus Guru Hargobind created the military which Guru Gobind Singh reshaped by making it a disciplined army of Khalsa.

You having a turban on your head and being the leader of the largest democracy in the world has a perfect oppurtunity to fulfill the cause of protecting and getting rid of the Indian motherland that all Indians have been yearning for thousands of years.

Bajwa Sahib, MMS would not have joined Kangress if he has the chardi kalan spirit. He is mixing widsom with inaction and talking humanity to animals.

[joshvajohn]

Ramana I have been noticing your comments. You seem to take things very personal. You just argue against my points. Highlight what are the issues with my points rather than naming me again. I do not know why other moderators are not noticing these things and if there is not freedom of expression here why it is run in the name of my country?

If forum moderators themselves have particular problem someone else should intervene and give some guidance. Otherwise no point is allowed to make here.

[Vikram_S]

@nsg discussion

NSG is well equipped but it could be even better equipped

especially more stuff like goggles, new helmets, knee/elbow pads and finally high tech sensors like uav's and minirobots to scan ahead of them

every little bit helps

otherwise they are quite well equipped all have BPJ and state of art weaponry

for semi-complete NSG weaponry list/pics go here, you can see variety of weaponry:

http://nsg.gov.in/june08/trainingcentremuseum.htm

[Shivani]

The Big Picture

[Rahul Shukla]

Sajjad Karim, member of EU Parliament was just interviewed from Manchester, England. He was apparantly in the Taj Hotel, escaped the attack and is now back in England. Described the attackers as having "south-asian appearance" and said they smiled when they started spraying the bullets. He said he felt a sense of "relief" when the Indian SF came and rescued him.

But whatever. He'd have been let go like the Turkish couple anyway because he belongs to the religion of peace.