Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

trivedi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 23:43
Location: Bharat / Amrika

Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby trivedi » 29 Nov 2008 00:51

Subject: Operational improvements in crisis handling

I think there were several operational things that could have been done better in our handling of the crisis that would have made the task easier for our commandos and saved some lives. This is my attempt to gather all such suggestions. Please contribute yours.

1) There STILL doesn't seem to be any automatic procedure in place to scramble MARCOS or other elite teams as soon as news of a terrorist attack breaks. Why do we depend on politically motivated and 'napunsak' state governments to 'call' in the army? Why isn't there a procedure and a command structure in place to get these teams on location in 2 hours and get them in charge?

2) The media wolves will continue to be the media wolves. Even after repeated requests by the army NOT to cover operational details most of these btards continued to give lip service to it while showing exactly how many personnel were moving in from what door. Two simple steps: Circling the entire location with trucks or vans and Pushing every aam-aadmi soul outside the perimeter would have solved this issue. Yes this would have been harder at Nariman building where there were terraces but tough as it is, those people could and should have been evacuated. They weren't.

3) Why the F does the fire department in a city like Bombay not have the building plans for buildings as prominent as the Taj and the Oberoi? Our brave soldiers were going door to door in the dark with no idea of the layout and a single master key. The building and construction permits bureaucrats in all major cities sit around and eat ghoos. Why don't we put them to work gathering and digitizing these plans and making sure the fire department has them so we can use them in crises?

These 3 things alone would have made the task so much easier for our army and possibly saved more lives.
Last edited by ramana on 29 Nov 2008 04:28, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changed thread name. ramana

Vikram_S
BRFite
Posts: 359
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 23:49

Re: Operational improvements in crisis handling

Postby Vikram_S » 29 Nov 2008 01:58

A_Gupta wrote:Defensive:
1. Major upgrade of security institutions.
2. Involvement of people in civil defense - e.g., via drills and exercises in major cities simulating terrorist attacks.
3. Outreach to peoples living on the coasts and borders - they should have hotline to intelligence agencies.
4. [very hard] - I think terrorists reuse logistic channels created up by criminals. There needs to be a major clampdown on crime in India.
5. Commutation of sentences of criminals who turn in terrorists.


My additions:

1. a SF team in every state capital city.

Either 4-5 prahaar of MARCOS or few Army SF, or regular SWAT or IAF Garud. Basically it should be organized so that every city has enough troop to take initial action while NSG mobilise and arrive. Many citiies are located next to or near cities with army/naval/af bases. These should act as nodes to provide troops if they are not within city itself.

These should have building plans, alternate movement plans, maps and already prepared instruction like trivedi said.

1.b: Upgrade of NSG/SF teams mentioned. sheer courage and training and weapons is not enough. even better sensor equipment such as full thermal imaging, UAV/mini robots should be acquired. this can save one life in engagement, than it is money going for a good purpose. same should be done for all above SF teams.

all teams should exercise once in while in coordination for this eventuality.

1. c: mobility: no point in waiting 4-5 hours for nsg to arrive each time. nsg must be provided direct access to airport and a transport should be permanently allocated to NSG, and all times the ready QRT of NSG on alert status should get a proper transport to reach destination ie airport.

via above - what will happen is first response time will reduce. it will not take 1-2 hours to bring troops into action.

1.d: need to upgrade national disaster management authority with dedicated investment in emergency care in both metro and for mobile bases. it should be done on priority basis.

my nightmare is if biological or WMD attack is done. and incompetent govt is still clueless and then invites ISI chief to give "words" in return. at least we should manage this attack.

2. agreed

3. agreed, something like mobile observer post used by IAF and also like tribals are used by national park as guard. indian navy and coast guard should secretly tap x fishermen in every coastal belt and have them for providing intel. give them encrypted radio for emergency contact. (like when these idiots got off boat and fishermen saw them)
call them tat rakshak or some such thing like civil defence community

4. very much agreed. biggest thing to do is to move IPS and CBI control away from politician. make them independent and it will give them lot of leeway in prosecution.

5. disagree somewhat since it can backfire.
smart guy can turn in minor fish and escape.

-----------------------------

ALSO: additional criteria:

A:
unified intelligence

every month: via video conferencing or whatever: RAW, IB, MI, CBI and state intelligence bureaus should meet. EVERY MONTH!! There should be action items and points of discussion about update!! i cannot believe them saying " we sent them a notice two months back, they should have done something!!"

what BS!!

the above should be in DIRECT control of PMO or NSA. And external auditor from opposition should be present to make sure it is not biased or used to settle scores.

second: intel can only be shared in each group among key players. not among any party MP especially those from criminal background or those who could have stake in it.

f.e: you dont talk about israel input to antiterror in front of owaisi who went to palestine and met hezbollah chief!!

B: Chain of command:
every city should have plan made for crisis control of command, who leads it and how
no headless chicken syndrome of cm having to rush in

if even cm is in bulgaria eating fish, there should still be backup chain of command to take control in crisis. unified logistics planned for, perhaps at mil base/node mention earlier: emergency stocks of water, food and gear such as NBC, and antigen

C: Media Briefing:

there should also be a media briefing cell with psyops factored in. no ten voices but only one and very credible. media should be in strict control. either you are with us, or against us.
people like barkha dutt, and sagarika ghose should be banned from air if they speculate on negotiation or try to act as extra constitutional power centers (pak minister called me)
no BS about panel discussions. people who are of known left/liberal orientation should be on watch list and media should be forbidden from giving them airtime.

at time of crisis, national will is paramount. giving airtime to doubters is idiotic.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50398
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Operational improvements in crisis handling

Postby ramana » 29 Nov 2008 04:27

I am renaming this Lessons learned from Mumbai terror attacks. Thanks for starting this as I thought of this early in the morning but was called away.

Shivani
BRFite
Posts: 207
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 13:00
Location: भारत
Contact:

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby Shivani » 29 Nov 2008 04:57

Equipment: Steel spike strips.

In India, we use lightweight mobile metal barricades to try and stop rogue vehicles, but spike strips which destroy the tires and thus immoblilize the vehicle have to be added to the list of equipment. They should be available to traffic police at all intersections and posts in all citites.

Usage:

As soon as there are reports of criminal activity in a particular part of a city, or intelligence report that terrorists are moving in certain vehicle on certain road, strips should be deployed immediately and only vehicles that have been verified safe be allowed to pass through.

A three stage barrier should be created. A spike strip. 40 feet down the line there should be barriers. 20 feet behind barriers there should be a second spike strip. This will stop terrorists who try to ram through, and greatly limit their options of escape.

Benefit:

This will not render the criminals or terrorists useless -they will shoot at bystanders, traffic and policemen at the checkpost-, but it will certainly delay their plans as they try and hijack another vehicle. It will also give time to security forces to attack them in this moment of vulnerability.

Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3037
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby Jagan » 29 Nov 2008 07:42

Guys, its too early - let the ambers cool down. I will unlock the thread once the operations wind down (Whenever it happens!)

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50398
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby ramana » 02 Dec 2008 11:05

I have unlocked the thread to collect lessons learned from this terrorist attack on Mumbai.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50398
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby ramana » 02 Dec 2008 11:13


pran
BRFite
Posts: 107
Joined: 09 Oct 2001 11:31
Location: internet

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby pran » 02 Dec 2008 11:18

Should BRF wargame India's vulnerabilties in the same lines it does for war scenarios,India's enemies are doing that and exposing it with a deadly cost? Does India's security agencies do that for better protection ? The terrorists have been always a step ahead in their planning and execution despite intel inputs. If discussing this is harmful for India by identifying geographic location ,time,agency can it be done in a more sanitized manner ?

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12858
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby Lalmohan » 02 Dec 2008 14:58

it is worth studying the civil defence re-structuring of both London and Madrid over the past decade of terror attacks - we may not be able to afford all the C3IS capabilities they have deployed, but we can do some of these things better than we do today

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15996
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby RajeshA » 02 Dec 2008 15:26

I don't know if it is the right thread for this, but here goes ...


India has a huge bureaucracy of paper pushers. Let us just computerize our bureaucracy with all these work-flow engines, web services, IT security, etc.

We should be able to slash upwards of 75% of our bureaucracy. Let us invest the money in security: more men, better training, improved access control, better intelligence (both humint and electronic).

The problem is the Indian State is wasting so much of our resources, that we don't have the money for what is necessary.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12858
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby Lalmohan » 02 Dec 2008 16:08

a more pressing problem is the complete political emasculation of the police - i.e. effectively becoming the servants of the CM of each state. MH police being no exception. whilst there has to be political oversight, the police need to be more like the IAS in terms of what needs to be done

i am sure that given the right set of operating parameters - all the police can do as sterling a job as the brave dudes at the chowpatty nakabandi who took down the well armed miss piggy and her girlfriend

Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby Raj Malhotra » 02 Dec 2008 16:10

Mumbai is known to be target for terrorists. Now look at this:-

First terrorist shots were fired at Taj and Oberoi at around 9.30-10pm. Marcos reached around 4am in morning in Taj (while they did nothing in Oberoi EVEN AFTER reaching) and NSG got into operation around 8am after 11 hours of first incident. Now point is what the Mumbai Police, its CP and DGP were doing from 10pm to 4am that is 6 hours when killings were going on in the heart of city i.e. before they could pass the blame to MARCOS/NSG. I ask the assh*les in power-that after sad demise of ATS personnel, were there no other person to take command? Governor House and all city politicians live within shouting distance of Taj, what were they doing, why additional armed police teams could not be sent from Police HQ or why commandoes attached to security of say, Governor House 5 min away, did not respond?



1. Why should the heads of Police CP, DGP & local SHOs not roll? How many AKs rifles were there in Mumbai Police and how were they deployed or distributed? Mumbai Police especially DGP, CP, Deputy CM, CM have to explain movements between 9pm to 4pm which are full 7 hours!


2. Where were Taj security guards? Could such a big Hotel on terrorist hit list not hire retired commandoes? When did Taj call police?


3. Why did NSG move to airport and city by BEST Buses? Wasting 2 hours in Delhi /Mumbai, where was the co-ordination to get IAF Helos? Note-This issue of delay was raised in Akshardham also!


4. Why NSG was not armed with guns to shoot through walls? (like short barreled shot guns firing explosive rounds)Note-This issue was raised in Akshardham also!


5. When NSG was called, why was IAF not called simultaneously to get helos/aircraft for fast movement?


6. Why there was no beat officer patrolling the sea coast, which should be normal? In Mumbai a person cannot go five steps without running into cops!

7. Only 2 Prahars were deployed by Navy till 4pm which is only 8x2=16 men, Mumbai is important navy port, so is that the only persons they had? Isn’t there a naval colony in Colaba itself which is right at the site of tragedy? Don’t the naval ships routinely dock near Gateway i.e. Taj? What was the exact time they were called (12am-1pm) and why is it that they could only respond after 4 hours with only 16 persons while being just a few hundred meters being away?

8. Why has the bureaucracy read Cabinet secretary not developed a co-ordination for quick response from Services in time of crisis? Why his personal permission is required? Why should he be not dismissed for responding slow? Why did whole of naval staff not act faster and with more men? Mumbai is heart of navy & Colaba / gateway is in the middle of heart, why did they respond with so few men and so slow? Why more commandoes could not come from IA & IAF who also have stations not more than an hour away? What would have happened if the attack had taken place say in Aurangabad, would they brass/nsg/police respond after one week?

9. What is the amount of training a police cop gets for firing his weapon? I think one round per year on average! This is in Bombay city with budget of city alone of 10,000 crores rupees per annum i.e. apart from lakhs of crores collected in the city for central and state taxes. Yes get it –the city alone generates few Billion dollars in taxes and Capitalization of Bombay stock market is more than the National GDP!! Why could not 10,000 Insas rifle be procured and cops trained on them? Cost only Rs. 20 crores!!!!!!

10. What has been done to destroy Dawood links in Cricket, film industry etc. Are not local politicians, police still heavily involved with known Dawood agents?

11. Why this issue of bomb blasts in taxi, more terrorists and local support is being downplayed?

12. Antony is reputed to be honest but is he competent? Has his indecision has delayed all procurement contracts of all services?

13. Is Chidambaram honest or has he been kicked upstairs for playing stock market and lining his (son’s) nest while not listening to anybody else (read not sharing the booty)?

14. Note- I think all those leaks to show that there was adequate intelligence is I think to protect some top brass which I think can only be NSA himself.

15. We were indirectly told that we should take quietly all the terrorist attacks as MMS does not want to de-rail nuke deal but what action he wants to take now? Why should not MMS, PC & Antony also resign and pave way for other sycophants, after all they should also get an opportunity!

16. Service Brass always blames politicians; the point is are they ready today? The last point of time any overt military action can be taken Pakistan is Jan 2009!

17. Why should we not mobilize, force Pakistan to draw away forces from North west front and then fund anti-pak jihadists, why not increase budget of RAW by say Rs. 10,000 crores for Pakistan de-stabilization alone? After all de-stabilized Pakistan cannot be worse than this. Soviet Union was also a nuclear power but was dismantled, after all!


While NSG, Mumbai lower level personnel may have been good and acted bravely, their brass has to answer lot of questions!

If possible please forward these questions to journalists we know so that they can be asked by media to (politicians &) bureaucrats, considering that bureaucrats are all going to escape. If we going to go to war, then we may have to live with these assh*les but if not then I say fire:-

1. NSA
2. Cabinet secretary
3. Home secretary
4. RAW head
5. IB Head
6. Mumbai DGP- a cry baby who looks like a gay and wants to hide his incompetence behind dead Mumbai Cops
7. Mumbai CP
8. Mumbai local SHOs
9. Coast Guard head

(NSG and Service chiefs should be asked to account for slow response, as of now the blame seems somewhere else but some reasons for delay are rumours and not open source, so I cannot post it!)

cross post

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby shiv » 02 Dec 2008 16:50

This article deserves better mileage

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?news ... 9&pageid=0

It’s time Pakistan got slammed for harbouring terrorists
R Vaidyanathan
Tuesday, December 02, 2008 03:52 IST

The three-day-long terror strike on the country’s financial capital was devastating in terms of its reach and impact. It has left Corporate India badly shaken and the elites numb.

It is no more about bombs being thrown at bus stations or trains getting blasted. It is no longer about only Nagpada or Govindpuri residents losing limbs and lives. Terror has now climbed up the value chain. As the new age entrepreneur Kiran Majumdar Shaw told a Bangalore newspaper, “So far, the terrorists targeted common people. Now the society’s elite, the business sector, is the target. What happened in Mumbai is a loud wake-up call for all of us to do something to protect ourselves.”

Corporate India did not bat an eyelid when Mumbai train blasts took place, or when Sarojini Nagar was burning on a Diwali day, or Hyderabad was weeping two years before. But today, every corporate captain is angry, and so are the celebrities who people Page 3 of newspapers, due largely because the attacks on the three top hotels were directly aimed at those who frequent these places, for business or pleasure (contrast this with the scant coverage of the carnage at the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus, for example, where commoners were involved).

All the same, the bleeding-heart liberals would be back to their routine ways after a few days. They will lament that the captured terrorist has not been given his favourite food and not allowed to watch TV or use his cell phone; they will say his human rights are violated. Just wait for the chorus. Of course, this time it will be between Page 3 and the jholawalas (activists) and that should be an interesting match to watch, but that’s another story.

In the last ten years, not a single session of any seminar sponsored by the CII or Ficci or business/ general journals has focused on terrorism. When this writer once broached the importance of talking about it, a senior business captain said it is for the government to deal with. Many of those seminars gave importance to Musharraf and now Zardari, as if they are going to provide any solution when they are a part of the problem.
Now, at least, terrorism is being realised as a problem facing the country.

Let us summarise what the real situation is and corporate sector should do if we are serious in fighting terrorism on our soil.

1. Recognise and treat Pakistan as a terrorist state. The state policy of Pakistan is terrorism and their single-point programme is to destroy India. This needs to be internalised by every business baron including the owners of media.

2. Now, the elite of Pakistan are more angry, since India is growing at 7% and they are given CCC rating and stiff conditions for borrowing from IMF. Many an academic from that country, who I have met in global conferences, has openly lamented that nobody talks about Indo-Pak relations anymore, but only Indo-China or Indo-American, etc. They want to be equal but they are in deep abyss

3. Pakistan is the only territory in the world where an army has a whole country under its control. This is an important issue since studies have found that a large number of corporates in Pakistan are ultimately owned by the Fauji Foundation (FF), Army Welfare Trust (AWT) Bahria Foundation (BF), Shaheen Foundation (SF) all owned by different wings of armed forces (See paper presented by Dr Ayesha Siddiqa-Agha on “Power, Perks, Prestige And Privileges: Military’s Economic Activities In Pakistan” in The International Conference on Soldiers in Business—Military as an Economic Actor; Jakarta, October 17-19, 2000). Hence, do not try to think of Pakistan without its army, irrespective of who rules that country temporarily and nominally. At least 70% of the market capitalisation of the Karachi stock exchange is owned by the army and related groups.

4. There are three groups in India, who are obsessed with friendship with Pakistan. One is the oldies born in that part before partition and who are nostalgic about the Lahore havelis, halwas and mujras. The second is the Bollywood and other assorted groups, who look at it as a big market. The Dawood gang has financed enough of these useful idiots. The third is the candle light holding bleeding heart liberals (BHLs) who cannot imagine India doing well without its younger brother taken care. All three have been proved wrong hundreds of times, but they are also opinion makers. Shun them, avoid them and ridicule them.

5. We should categorically, unambiguously, unequivocally boycott Pakistan in all aspects for a decade or more. Be it art, music, economy, commerce, or other hand-holding activities. That army-controlled state has to realise that it has done enough damage to global civilisation. More than 100 acts/attempts of terror recorded in the world since 9/11 have had their roots in Pakistan. More than 40% of the prisoners in Guantanamo are Pakistanis.

6. We should recognise that it is our war and nobody in the world is going to wage it on our behalf. What the Americans are thinking, or what the Britishers are going to do will not help. A determined country should have a sense of dignity and independence to fight its war.

We should stop interviewing leaders from that country who mouth the same inanities that “you have not produced any proof.” Government of India should perhaps create a museum of proof between India Gate and North block.

I am amazed that a country of billions is required even to furnish proof. If one-sixth of humanity says that the terrorist state of Pakistan is the root cause of global terrorism - it is factual. Let us not fall into the trap of providing proof to the culprits.

7. We should realise that a united Pakistan is a grave threat to the existence of India. Hence, we should do everything possible to break up Pakistan into several units. This is required to be done not only for our interest, but for world peace.

8. We have made a grave blunder by suggesting in the international fora that “Pakistan is also a victim of terror.” That is a grave error and it will haunt us for decades. They are perpetrators and our government is in deep illusion if it tries to distinguish between organs of power in that country thinking it is like India. There is only one organ, namely its army (with ISI as a sub-organ) in that country, which owns and controls at least 70% of the GDP in that country.

If we want the world to treat Pakistan for what it is, then we should start practising it. Always call it the ‘terrorist state of Pakistan’ and never have any illusion that it is going to be any different. If corporate India, including electronic/ print media, starts practising this, we should see results in a few years. Are the elites listening?
The writer is professor of finance and control, Indian Institute of Management - Bangalore, and can be contacted at vaidya@iimb.ernet.in. Views are personal.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63116
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby Singha » 02 Dec 2008 16:59

gign seems to use armoured shields in the last phase where quarry is located
and a room needs to be entered. may help deflect shots and shrapnel.

http://le.cos.free.fr/photo/GIGN/new/GSIGN375.gif
http://le.cos.free.fr/photo/GIGN/new/GSIGN376.gif

trivedi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 23:43
Location: Bharat / Amrika

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby trivedi » 02 Dec 2008 20:02

pran wrote:Should BRF wargame India's vulnerabilties in the same lines it does for war scenarios,India's enemies are doing that and exposing it with a deadly cost? Does India's security agencies do that for better protection ? The terrorists have been always a step ahead in their planning and execution despite intel inputs. If discussing this is harmful for India by identifying geographic location ,time,agency can it be done in a more sanitized manner ?


One of the most basic principles of security is that security through obscurity is no security at all. Anything we discuss here, the enemy can likely come up with himself. So there is nothing to be gained from not discussing these and much to lose.

trivedi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 23:43
Location: Bharat / Amrika

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby trivedi » 02 Dec 2008 20:05

Singha wrote:gign seems to use armoured shields in the last phase where quarry is located
and a room needs to be entered. may help deflect shots and shrapnel.

http://le.cos.free.fr/photo/GIGN/new/GSIGN375.gif
http://le.cos.free.fr/photo/GIGN/new/GSIGN376.gif


Always wondered if the forces were using these and if not, why?

A possible reason is that shields don't protect against grenades lobbed over them though I suppose there's some handling training that goes with these that might help counter it.

trivedi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 23:43
Location: Bharat / Amrika

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby trivedi » 02 Dec 2008 20:07

Raj Malhotra wrote: Mumbai is known to be target for terrorists. Now look at this:-

First terrorist shots were fired at Taj and Oberoi at around 9.30-10pm. Marcos reached around 4am in morning in Taj (while they did nothing in Oberoi EVEN AFTER reaching) and NSG got into operation around 8am after 11 hours of first incident. Now point is what the Mumbai Police, its CP and DGP were doing from 10pm to 4am that is 6 hours when killings were going on in the heart of city i.e. before they could pass the blame to MARCOS/NSG. I ask the assh*les in power-that after sad demise of ATS personnel, were there no other person to take command? Governor House and all city politicians live within shouting distance of Taj, what were they doing, why additional armed police teams could not be sent from Police HQ or why commandoes attached to security of say, Governor House 5 min away, did not respond?


The problem with having politicians in charge of any crisis of this magnitude is that the a*holes will think about the implications of any tactical move on their own political careers first. This is the nature of the beast.

Therefore, I firmly believe that the NSG should automatically become in charge of any ongoing crisis involving urban terrorism.

trivedi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 23:43
Location: Bharat / Amrika

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby trivedi » 02 Dec 2008 20:10

Lalmohan wrote:a more pressing problem is the complete political emasculation of the police - i.e. effectively becoming the servants of the CM of each state. MH police being no exception. whilst there has to be political oversight, the police need to be more like the IAS in terms of what needs to be done

i am sure that given the right set of operating parameters - all the police can do as sterling a job as the brave dudes at the chowpatty nakabandi who took down the well armed miss piggy and her girlfriend


Agreed, although I believe the police could use some training on the difference between Piggy Terrorist and Dawood Gangbanger.

The former has been drugged and sent on a suicide mission (even if he is dumb enough to not to realize it) and therefore, will pull a gun out of his sock and shoot a policeman even when surrounded. The latter probably won't.

trivedi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 23:43
Location: Bharat / Amrika

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby trivedi » 02 Dec 2008 20:14

ramana wrote:A bomb disposal expert's story

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1210824


Guy has steel balls.

Instructively, he did not reveal the wire he actually cut. Unlike our discussion here, this is the kind of information the enemy might find useful. A healthy dose of disinformation can also be useful when discussing something like this.

Shivani
BRFite
Posts: 207
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 13:00
Location: भारत
Contact:

Improvements in protective gear

Postby Shivani » 02 Dec 2008 20:18



The police and soldiers need better protective gear.

The jackets worn by Indian soldiers and in particular the policemen look like a cheap Jaipuri रजाई rather than proper armour. Built with legendary PSU quality.

They ought to upgrade to Dragon Skin and other such modern armour. The helmets need improvement too. A tin dustbin might have passed the 9mm bullet test, but how the energy is dissipated to wearer is important.

I've never seen so many ill fitting helmets as I did during the British terrorists' attack on Mumbai.

trivedi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 23:43
Location: Bharat / Amrika

Re: Improvements in protective gear

Postby trivedi » 02 Dec 2008 20:26

Shivani wrote:


The police and soldiers need better protective gear.

The jackets worn by Indian soldiers and in particular the policemen look like a cheap Jaipuri रजाई rather than proper armour. Built with legendary PSU quality.

They ought to upgrade to Dragon Skin and other such modern armour. The helmets need improvement too. A tin dustbin might have passed the 9mm bullet test, but how the energy is dissipated to wearer is important.

I've never seen so many ill fitting helmets as I did during the British terrorists' attack on Mumbai.


Shivaniji, Dragon Skin costs $5K retail. Even whole sale the price will prevent the govt. from buying it.

We need some local innovation here. Even if we use the exact same materials, our low labor costs would reduce the price.

This won't come from the PSUs. Does the govt. regulate manufacturing of protective gear like they regulate ordinance mfg?
Last edited by trivedi on 02 Dec 2008 20:45, edited 1 time in total.

venkat_r
BRFite
Posts: 263
Joined: 20 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby venkat_r » 02 Dec 2008 20:27

Few of the observations regards to NSG are

1. NSG deployment descision has to be made by someone and this should be done by the crisis management group. This group has to be central organisation and should have sattelite components, through out the country, atleast 6 of these in the country.

2. NSG units have to be also 6 to 8 atleast throughout the country. These attacks have taken place in Mumbai where people speak Hindi and the people involved in these cases in the Hotels mostly speak english. But the same cannot be said of all the other places in India. These local units should be able to speak atleast 3-4 languages which include couple of local languages and have to be generally familiar with the loacal high value targets. This would be vital in any hostage situations where these NSGs might have to talk to the hostages in the rescue operations. Also by localising the NSGs, and making them familiar with some of the high value targets in general would help in any crisis. These people would generally know their local conditions and spaces and can deal with terrorists better.

3. I have seen Canine units with NSGs, but not sure if they are standard. There have to be plenty of these canine untis developed locally also. These would be of very high importance, as the terrorists who in India's case are generally from neighboring countries and can mingle into the croud easily. K9 units can sniff out the bombs, and any particuar individuals (terrorists/hostages) on the move.

4. Different types of transport Heavy lift/Choppers and locally Buses/vans/bikes have to be made available.

trivedi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 23:43
Location: Bharat / Amrika

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby trivedi » 02 Dec 2008 20:31

venkat_r wrote:Few of the observations regards to NSG are

1. NSG deployment descision has to be made by someone and this should be done by the crisis management group. This group has to be central organisation and should have sattelite components, through out the country, atleast 6 of these in the country.

2. NSG units have to be also 6 to 8 atleast throughout the country. These attacks have taken place in Mumbai where people speak Hindi and the people involved in these cases in the Hotels mostly speak english. But the same cannot be said of all the other places in India. These local units should be able to speak atleast 3-4 languages which include couple of local languages and have to be generally familiar with the loacal high value targets. This would be vital in any hostage situations where these NSGs might have to talk to the hostages in the rescue operations. Also by localising the NSGs, and making them familiar with some of the high value targets in general would help in any crisis. These people would generally know their local conditions and spaces and can deal with terrorists better.

3. I have seen Canine units with NSGs, but not sure if they are standard. There have to be plenty of these canine untis developed locally also. These would be of very high importance, as the terrorists who in India's case are generally from neighboring countries and can mingle into the croud easily. K9 units can sniff out the bombs, and any particuar individuals (terrorists/hostages) on the move.

4. Different types of transport Heavy lift/Choppers and locally Buses/vans/bikes have to be made available.


Excellent points.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Improvements in protective gear

Postby shiv » 02 Dec 2008 20:51

Shivani wrote:


The police and soldiers need better protective gear.

The jackets worn by Indian soldiers and in particular the policemen look like a cheap Jaipuri रजाई rather than proper armour. Built with legendary PSU quality.

They ought to upgrade to Dragon Skin and other such modern armour. The helmets need improvement too. A tin dustbin might have passed the 9mm bullet test, but how the energy is dissipated to wearer is important.

I've never seen so many ill fitting helmets as I did during the British terrorists' attack on Mumbai.


Even if you put our entire army and police in Dragon skin or even Tyrannosaurus skin - the civilians who got killed will still be easy targets for terrorists.

Most of the deaths this time were before the NSG/Spl forces came in .

After they got invovled how many deaths were there - 2? What does that say about their op procedures?

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16428
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: woh log gawad hai, unpad hai !
Contact:

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby Rahul M » 02 Dec 2008 20:54

This won't come from the PSUs. Does the govt. regulate manufacturing of protective gear like they regulate ordinance mfg?

some people from PVT sector are making top-of-the line protective gear and even exporting it.
but still can't get orders because the babooz haven't been greased.

dragonskin was rejected BTW.

Tanaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3240
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby Tanaji » 02 Dec 2008 20:58

Fortunately I have consciously married a graduate to ensure that she would be able to get an officer's job in the event of my untimely demise.


From the last line in ramana's link.

It is humorous and sad at the same time.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15996
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby RajeshA » 02 Dec 2008 20:59

Rahul M,

Dragon Skin may have been rejected, but somebody would be hard-put to claim, that it is not better than what our soldiers and NSG wear now! So it may still be a better alternative.

trivedi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 23:43
Location: Bharat / Amrika

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby trivedi » 02 Dec 2008 21:00

Rahul M wrote:
This won't come from the PSUs. Does the govt. regulate manufacturing of protective gear like they regulate ordinance mfg?

some people from PVT sector are making top-of-the line protective gear and even exporting it.
but still can't get orders because the babooz haven't been greased.

dragonskin was rejected BTW.


Perhaps it is time for these people to point out in the media that the currently used gear is useless.

Fire under their arses might just work instead of grease. (Sadly, it probably won't.)

chakkunny
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 26
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 02:13

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby chakkunny » 02 Dec 2008 21:14

Some more suggestions:

For the NSG:

1. Aside from 6-8 major centers where NSG units are deployed in country, we should 3-4 smaller detachments that are in constant tour. Their role is in mounting penetration exercises on vaious targets in country and rating the response of the local agencies. Targets need not only be large cities but also locations of interest such as major petrochemical complexes, ports, refineries, nulcear stations, arms depots, ISRO centers, Universities etc. These exercises will keep local security agencies on their toes and provide NSG personnel key experience if in case they have to retake such targets. More importantly - it will show aam junta how vulnerable they really are.

2. We need a complete rationalization of air transportation assets. A sepearate wing reporting to Spec Ops command can also be on standby to pick up NSG units from their 6-8 main bases as well as for stealth infiltration. As N^3 rightly pointed out, the pattern of insertion and deployment of NSG personnel whether in transit or at the target site, cannot and should not be predictable by the enemy.

3. There is talk of a federal investigative agency. This agency should be made answerable not to the PMO but to Parliament. Its head must be a constitutional position similar to CVC. Otherwise, it will end up in the same way as RAW, IB and the CBI. It should also have its own fast track courts.

4. In the same vein, we must have a 10x budget increase for the CVC so that it can maintain a more effective investigative anti corruption agency. Corruption was, is and will the pillar on which the next terror strike will occur in India. Again, it should have its own fast track courts.


Military R&D and Focus for Terrorism:
1. Small UGVs for urban warfare. Would be especially useful in the Taj/Oberoi kind of fighting.
2. Chemical agents (as someone already suggested on the forums)

Military R&D and Focus for Jhapads
1. Stealth UAV programs
2. Target designators - man portable and UAV mounted
3. High Precision Longe range Artillery - 40 - 120 km Vulcano type 155mm munitions/120 - 150 km (Pinaka 2) / Short rangle cannister based BM/CM

John Snow
BRFite
Posts: 1941
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 00:44

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby John Snow » 02 Dec 2008 21:18

No no commission Kali to vaporize the terrorists. we are almost there just a little tweaking is required because of Voltage problems, once the Nuke deals show the results Kali is there to kill all terrorists.

make way we are on our way to super power... who needs NSG, when we have NSA

Actually couple of yeras ago during Akshardam or Parliament attack I suggested, every citizen be next to a NSG guard then there will be complete safety and security. Proof, does SG get attacked, does MMS get attacked, Does Rahul get aqttacked big NO!, why because they all walk next to NSG,

Next promise of a would be PM, every man woman one NSG for free....

munna
BRFite
Posts: 1394
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby munna » 02 Dec 2008 21:43

^^^ John All three you mentioned are SPG and not NSG protectees.

trivedi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 23:43
Location: Bharat / Amrika

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby trivedi » 02 Dec 2008 21:55

John Snow wrote:No no commission Kali to vaporize the terrorists. we are almost there just a little tweaking is required because of Voltage problems, once the Nuke deals show the results Kali is there to kill all terrorists.

make way we are on our way to super power... who needs NSG, when we have NSA

Actually couple of yeras ago during Akshardam or Parliament attack I suggested, every citizen be next to a NSG guard then there will be complete safety and security. Proof, does SG get attacked, does MMS get attacked, Does Rahul get aqttacked big NO!, why because they all walk next to NSG,

Next promise of a would be PM, every man woman one NSG for free....


Look man, you are frustrated we get it.

In the past few days I have argued with a few people who feel all discussion is pointless because nothing will come of it. Yeah, nothing will come of it if you don't do anything. I am doing what I can. I find this discussion helps me. If you feel it is pointless, you are free not to take part. If you take part, try to contribute something more than just sarcasm.

pran
BRFite
Posts: 107
Joined: 09 Oct 2001 11:31
Location: internet

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby pran » 02 Dec 2008 21:59

trivedi wrote:
pran wrote:Should BRF wargame India's vulnerabilties in the same lines it does for war scenarios,India's enemies are doing that and exposing it with a deadly cost? Does India's security agencies do that for better protection ? The terrorists have been always a step ahead in their planning and execution despite intel inputs. If discussing this is harmful for India by identifying geographic location ,time,agency can it be done in a more sanitized manner ?


One of the most basic principles of security is that security through obscurity is no security at all. Anything we discuss here, the enemy can likely come up with himself. So there is nothing to be gained from not discussing these and much to lose.


Before dismissing the thought with a one liner.

If that is the reasoning then why does BRF discuss wargame scenarios, they are supposed to be done by defence establishments, Right!! This reasoning indicates that Indian's security apparatus is doing a great job in obscuring their weakness which will be exploited in due course of time.

Every Indian in their daily life in any corner of India observes things which is a security vulnerability and unless they are brought forward and discussed . The mere discussion will raise awareness and attention and I am sure BRF have wide viewership who can do something about it.
By discussing the vulnerabilities I do not want to point out that there is a back door to any secured establishment pointing out its exact location and time. The discussion must be in general e.g. How safe are our airport perimeter ? How safe are the landing approach and the takeoff from shoulder fired projectiles ?

John Snow
BRFite
Posts: 1941
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 00:44

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby John Snow » 02 Dec 2008 22:08

Ignore me as I ignore you. Keep churning your theories and postulates, having been on this forum for long enough , I have seen no new ideas, except

1) do nothing
2) We need equipment
3) need to eliminate corruption.
4) get Dawwod Live or Dead
5) get fax machine
6) wait till opportune time
7) plead with uncle
8) Elect SG RG or even better LKg
9) publish white paper on ISI vs NSG
10) Cross yellow sea
11) Dont cross Yellow sea
12) Dont go up the ladder of escalation
13) Get Funding for Kali going
14) Give away kashmir
15) Akhand Bharat
16) Free Baluchistan
17) War in Tibet
18) Make ICBM
19) Make fizzle proof Fusion
20) Get Economy going
21) Protect VVIP
22) Let TSP take over India
23 War is not the answer
24) open Borders
25) Try cultural exchanges not gun fire exchanges
Look pal we did not punish Bdesh for killing BSF you think we have the gal to go against TSP. Dream on.
Post something that was not covered in the above list

trivedi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 23:43
Location: Bharat / Amrika

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby trivedi » 02 Dec 2008 22:08

pran wrote:Before dismissing the thought with a one liner.

If that is the reasoning then why does BRF discuss wargame scenarios, they are supposed to be done by defence establishments, Right!! This reasoning indicates that Indian's security apparatus is doing a great job in obscuring their weakness which will be exploited in due course of time.


I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you saying BRF should not discuss wargame scenarios?

There is no information disclosed here that's secret. Anything we discuss here can be arrived at through logical analysis by the enemy.

pran wrote:Every Indian in their daily life in any corner of India observes things which is a security vulnerability and unless they are brought forward and discussed . The mere discussion will raise awareness and attention and I am sure BRF have wide viewership who can do something about it.


Yes, that's the hope.

pran wrote: By discussing the vulnerabilities I do not want to point out that there is a back door to any secured establishment pointing out its exact location and time. The discussion must be in general e.g. How safe are our airport perimeter ? How safe are the landing approach and the takeoff from shoulder fired projectiles ?


Agreed and we are not doing that. We are not saying the guards at the Taj go out for a smoke every day at 9 pm. We are saying things like the command structure should be changed. What's bad about that?

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4856
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby SBajwa » 02 Dec 2008 22:12

The biggest lesson learned is the style of the terrorists was what is called "Gazwas" whic is the the Arabic word for raids.
Mohammad himself led 78 raids killing non-muslims and thus his followers till-date follow his exact action. Suicide bombings were "unislamic" but these type of raids where terrorist are killed in defensive operations by non-muslims are perfect for an Islamic Shaheed to get his 72+28.

trivedi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 73
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 23:43
Location: Bharat / Amrika

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby trivedi » 02 Dec 2008 22:16

John Snow wrote:Post something that was not covered in the above list



I try to do my job better than before and do what I can to fix the f'ed up things. Maybe it will prove pointless like you say. I think it won't.

John Snow
BRFite
Posts: 1941
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 00:44

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby John Snow » 02 Dec 2008 22:17

thanks munna ji I stand corrected.
But I want National Security G to protect individuals not SPG, because a nation is made up of people

enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby enqyoob » 02 Dec 2008 22:19

Did you watch the way the police at the roadblock reacted to the terrorist-driven car? Any comments? For instance, what if those terrorists had a bomb in the back seat?

Indian law enforcement people (and everyone else but the politicians, down to the hotel receptionists!) have NOOOOOOO lack of personal courage or sheer death-defying instinctive heroism and sense of duty, but WHY does the training not emphasize elementary precautions to reduce casualties among these heroes?

pran
BRFite
Posts: 107
Joined: 09 Oct 2001 11:31
Location: internet

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Postby pran » 02 Dec 2008 22:23

Post something that was not covered in the above list


Try electing a responsible and sensible politician ?

Sounds like an unattainable task, right!!! The odds against it happening are very high.
A sensible,responsible honest person will stay out of politics most likely.


Return to “Terrorism Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests