Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

VikramS
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by VikramS »

The fundamental problem in India is that the police at the mercy of the politicains and can not act independently.

Politicians need people with money to fund themselves. Many of them are beholden to large criminal organizations, assuming they themselves do not have a criminal record.

The only way this nexus can be broken if the police is allowed to operate independently; there is no way the politicians will change.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by John Snow »

dont blame the politicians,
the IPS IAS all have officers association. It is these spineless officers who want to carry chappals of the politicos.

I wish the NSG cadre fire a namaskar baan at the feet of A chut anandan for his garbage utterences against the father of a brave major who died for the cause.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by munna »

narayanan wrote:Did you watch the way the police at the roadblock reacted to the terrorist-driven car? Any comments? For instance, what if those terrorists had a bomb in the back seat?

Indian law enforcement people (and everyone else but the politicians, down to the hotel receptionists!) have NOOOOOOO lack of personal courage or sheer death-defying instinctive heroism and sense of duty, but WHY does the training not emphasize elementary precautions to reduce casualties among these heroes?
Narayanan I have interacted with people who have fought terrorists and fired 1000s of rounds in their active service while shaheedizing a lot of paki pests in Punjab. These people while very efficient in their work are not often the most educated and articulate ones because they are junior officers/constables, in other words leaving apart the IPS officers most other pandus are treated as dirt whose life and safety are as important as I am to the cause of Pakistan. The current police hierarchy makes an IPS a centre of power and thus all resources and training is often reserved for them while the common pandu is spared of the angreji type training courses by exotic instructors and in exotic locations. What to talk of training in simple operational procedures of handling crime scene, hostage situation and mob control these guys are often paid less than a clerk of similar rank in civil administration while being required to put twice as many hours.
The simple summary is, from pay to training of our police men we neglect, vilify and ridicule them but expect them to fight like commandos from "counter strike" using weapons and tactics from WW II when faced by Paki pests armed to teeth.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by Prem »

The best lesson we can learn is the urgency of eliminating known Baki assests in India. Start with the Valley and go down to UP, Bihar, bengal, AP and maharashtra. No lesson is learned unless GOI remove article 370 now and let Indian people take care of the root cause of this kind of terrorism.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by Manu »

Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks:
Don't Vote for UPA if you want to live.
Other than that, I am at loss, sorry.
cholaraja
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by cholaraja »

nothing - military action ruled out in resonse by Mukherjee - lost all leverage in any discussion
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by renukb »

http://in.news.yahoo.com/48/20081203/80 ... ull_1.html

We buy cheapest, poorest quality bullet-proof jackets, says senior cop
Wed, Dec 3 02:36 AM

The bullet-proof jackets that the bravehearts of the Mumbai Police Department were wearing while confronting the terrorists, were not good enough to prevent bullets fired from sophisticated weapons like the AK-56 that the terrorists had used, police personnel across the city have said.

'What our establishment does not realise is that different kinds of bullet-proof vests are required for different kinds of operations. Be it naxalites or terrorists or ordinary criminals, they all tend to use different kinds of weapons with different bullet calibres. Our government has the tendency to offer tenders and buy from the lowest bidder, which ensures that we end up buying equipment that are least expensive and hence of lowest quality,' said a senior police officer on condition of anonymity.

The vests can not even protect police personnel from automatic rifles, the official said.

A crime branch officer, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said: 'All the police officers, whether they are from local police stations or the elite ATS or the Crime Branch, get the same calibre of bullet-proof jackets. The jackets are useful while facing fire from less calibre bullets like the 9 mm. But they cannot withstand bullets fired from automatic weapons like the AK-56. It is tragic that so many fine and senior police officers lost their lives just because of the poor quality of bullet-proof jackets given to them'.

Another officer, who was with the Anti Extortion Cell till a few years back, said: 'The bullet-proof vests provided are sub-standard. When I was with the elite Anti Extortion Cell, there would always be a dearth of bullet-proof vests at the time of any operation. Moreover, the vests available would always be of the type which could not be relied upon. I hope this tragic incident compels the government to look closely into the matter of police welfare,' he said.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by R_Kumar »

VikramS wrote:The fundamental problem in India is that the police at the mercy of the politicains and can not act independently.
I am going to comment something which is not directly related to the topic so please pardon me.

Do you get any confidence when you see police on the street?
The answer is, even if you are an innocent person you get scared when you see police. British made sure that average person gets scared looking at the khaki. But shouldn't have we changed that impression after independence? Well we didn't.

Imagine if I have some vital intelligence info about my neighbor, I will think 100 times before going to the police. Why? because I am afraid that if it doesn't suit them, then I might get into the trouble. And once I get into the trap there is no easy way out no matter how innocent I am.
Police need to treat general public with respect in order to get good support. Right now some police officers have died so many people will talk great about them, but wait for few more weeks and you will see people will start putting police in the same category as politicians.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by ramana »

At height of Kargil cirsis, when the only talk in the West was off nuke standoff between TSP and India, I arrived in New Delhi. My relatives who came to pick me up were kept at a distance. I didnt have any Indian rupees to make a phone call. I already came outof the airport and cant go back. I explained my situation to the cop who gave me the necessary rupees to make the phone call. And never took it back saying one has to help strangers. Yes I have confidence in our policemen. I dont have confidence in the poltical netas who misuse their powers.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by renukb »

Yes I have confidence in our policemen. I dont have confidence in the poltical netas who misuse their powers.

Your experience was rare one. IMO, most people who have POWER, will (ab)use it to their advantage either when they are in trouble or when they are getting benefitted. It can happen in your work place as well.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by R_Kumar »

I have seen many incidents where my blood was boiling looking at what the police were doing. I don't want to digress from the thread topic though. This is my last post on this.
animesharma
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by animesharma »

THOSE IN MUMBAI, PLEASE SUPPORT!!
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by lakshmikanth »

R_Kumar wrote: Police need to treat general public with respect in order to get good support. Right now some police officers have died so many people will talk great about them, but wait for few more weeks and you will see people will start putting police in the same category as politicians.

Indian Police and Politicians are a bunch with a lot of power but no responsibility. It results in a condition called Moral Hazard (look it up on wikipedia)

My hope was that this thing was changing with a lot of "24/7" DDMs entering the scene recently, but I am not sure anymore. Maybe the civil disobedience movement may change the face of politics in India.....wishful thinking from my side.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by SRoy »

renukb wrote:http://in.news.yahoo.com/48/20081203/80 ... ull_1.html

We buy cheapest, poorest quality bullet-proof jackets, says senior cop
Wed, Dec 3 02:36 AM

The bullet-proof jackets that the bravehearts of the Mumbai Police Department were wearing while confronting the terrorists, were not good enough to prevent bullets fired from sophisticated weapons like the AK-56 that the terrorists had used, police personnel across the city have said.
Some heads in DRDO too should roll. WTF we cannot even manfacture something as basic as bullet proof vests in large number?

Keeping in line with this thread...

Would some gent with diagramming skill put up the org / command strcuture starting from NSA in place during the attack?

NSG
GoI is composed of a bunch of buffons needs no further proof. Now we hear that plans are afoot to place NSG detachments in all metros. So we would always be a step behind the pigs ?

Why not the proactive step of deploying NSG detachments (implicit expansion) in all state capitals and UTs?

NSG and Airlift support
There seem to be total lack of coordination between NSG and IAF for airlift support.

There are always 3-4 IL-76s stationed at Palam, what we are being told that there was none when NSG got ready.

I'm also being told that the IL-76s do not belong to 3 Wing (the local IAF unit). Its time Delhi hosts a heavy lift unit.

However, given the sitaution couldn't the communications squadron (provided President and PM are not out of Delhi), which always have aircrafts ready, be used for such emergencies?

Weapons
I find it hilarious that people here have dismissed the plight of the Pandus on account of obsolete weapon.
Someone even said SLRs do not provide much confidence.

I must submit that (anyone that has undergone basic military training will vouch) that well maintained .303 in the hands of trained personnel (assuming regular practice) would have pinned down the pigs in CST. With SLRs its better.

The CST incidence in fact demonstrates abyssmal training conditions.

Emergency Handling
We can't leave everything to govt. agencies. How many people here are trained to handle fire, injuries, responding to air raid alarms, leave alone weapons, etc.?

Something as basic as fire evacuation drills is treated with jest. Thats from my first hand experience in our IT companies that supposedly employ educated people.

>>

I'll post a more coherent post later.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by lakshmikanth »

SRoy wrote: GoI is composed of a bunch of buffons needs no further proof. Now we hear that plans are afoot to place NSG detachments in all metros. So we would always be a step behind the pigs ?
This kind of cacophony scares me!

This is why I think war with Pukistan is not a good option, it would be a repeat of the Chinese war with spineless leaders letting down the military!
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by renukb »

Five Lessons From Mumbai
http://in.news.yahoo.com/240/20081202/1 ... 57173.html

Tue, Dec 2 02:30 PM

Tunku Varadarajan, Forbes.com

The terrorist assault on Mumbai has only just ended, and India has entered a period of urgent self-examination, bitter soul-searching--and increasingly acrid recrimination. Here are five lessons that present themselves--to the naked eye--in the aftermath.

1. India is an incredibly soft target for terrorists. Mumbai, India's financial hub, lacked its own SWAT teams and commandos. They had to be flown in from the capital, New Delhi (with the interior minister announcing, on TV, that 200 of them were on their way ... talk about a free gift of information to the terrorists!). One cannot imagine that the small number of terrorists who assaulted Mumbai were the only ones trained at the Pakistani camps whence they came. So: What will happen if terrorists attack, next, the information technology hubs in Bangalore and Hyderabad, the high-tech heart of India's economy? Or the Taj Mahal in Agra, arguably the most famous building in the world? Or the Howrah railway junction in Calcutta--India's busiest? Or India's off-shore oil platforms in the Arabian Sea, not all that far from Karachi? Or, all at once, each of the five elite Indian Institutes of Technology, with the aim of wiping out the next generation of Indian scientists? India must set up numerous regional anti-terrorist-squad hubs, with one in every state capital, and with special protective provision for sites deemed to be likely terrorist targets. This will be expensive, but not as expensive as the cost of recovering from terrorist catastrophe. (Footnote: How safe from terrorist attack are India's nuclear installations?)

2. India must revamp its dysfunctional intelligence services. Here, it must put nationalism and spurious pride aside and go cap in hand to the Israelis, the Americans, and the Brits, and say: "Help us protect ourselves. Tell us what we should do to keep our country and its people safe." These countries are streets ahead of India in the sophistication and sweep of their intelligence, and now have a vigorous incentive to help India: Their nationals are extremely vulnerable abroad, and were singled out by the terrorists in Mumbai; besides, no doubt now remains that India is battling a common Islamist foe. The Hindu has joined the Jew and the Christian as an infidel to be scorched with jihadist wrath.

3. India's political parties must swiftly agree on a national security agenda, drawing up a list of goals that transcend partisan politics. Their aim must be to keep the country's citizens and resources safe from terrorist attack. A government of national unity, while a seemingly Utopian idea in such a politically fractious country, should be on the table for consideration. Furthermore, there must be a pact between parties that India's Muslims must not be stigmatized in the run-up to the country's elections next year. (It should be noted that a number of those who were gunned down by the Islamist terrorists in Mumbai were Indian Muslims.) All the Indian political parties could, usefully, reaffirm their commitment to secular democracy, a cornerstone of the Constitution of India. In a war, one must distinguish oneself as clearly as possible from one's enemy.

4. India must take advantage of the presence in Pakistan of a friendly, civilian government. That government is waging its own struggle for political supremacy against the Pakistani military and intelligence establishments--which have a vested interest in stoking hostility toward India, and which have, in ways that have been irrefutably documented, aided the terrorists' jihad against India. So any Indian "Blame Pakistan" reaction must be careful not to undermine the civilian government there: That government is bending over backward to improve ties with India, and the terrorist attacks on India are, in part, an attempt to derail genuine peace efforts. So New Delhi must treat President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani as friends. After all, Zardari's wife, Benazir Bhutto, was killed by terrorists not unconnected to those who assaulted Mumbai. He has as much hatred for them as does the average Indian. Philosophically, Indians must also learn to distinguish "a few evil Pakistanis" from "Pakistan as a whole," just as most Americans, after 9/11, did not see Mohammed Atta as an incarnation of Egypt.

5. The Pakistani government, for its part, needs swiftly to assert control over Pakistan's military and intelligence institutions, for no amount of peaceful overtures toward India will bear fruit if they can be wrecked by a single terrorist assault. It may be enough, this time, for President Zardari to assert that the Pakistani government was not involved in any way. But what of the next attack ... and the next? There will come a time--and it will not be long in coming--when India will be entitled to ask itself what forcible, self-defensive measures it should take if the Pakistani government is incapable of controlling jihadist activity (including the presence of elaborate training camps) on its own soil? Here, the Obama administration has to be rock-firm with Islamabad--particularly with Pakistan's generals and Inter-Services Intelligence spies. After all, did not the terrorists--trained in camps to which the Pakistani army appears to have turned a blind eye--seek out and kill Americans in Mumbai?

Tunku Varadarajan, a professor at the Stern Business School at NYU and research fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution, is opinions editor at Forbes.com, where he writes a weekly column.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by SRoy »

lakshmikanth wrote:
SRoy wrote: GoI is composed of a bunch of buffons needs no further proof. Now we hear that plans are afoot to place NSG detachments in all metros. So we would always be a step behind the pigs ?
This kind of cacophony scares me!

This is why I think war with Pukistan is not a good option, it would be a repeat of the Chinese war with spineless leaders letting down the military!
So why are you adding to the cacaphony? :D

However I've no problem with current GoI plan, given my folks and I are based in metros.

Why should I care if Guwahati or Hyderabad are denied a NSG presence? GoI is smart after all.

Yep, I take back my word and proclaim GoI is smart.

Just don't crib next time a non-metro is attacked and casualty count go up due to delayed availaibity of CT units.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by lakshmikanth »

SRoy wrote:
lakshmikanth wrote: This kind of cacophony scares me!

This is why I think war with Pukistan is not a good option, it would be a repeat of the Chinese war with spineless leaders letting down the military!
So why are you adding to the cacaphony? :D {I meant the cacophony in the Govt saaar! Plus I think its in the desi blood :)}

However I've no problem with current GoI plan, given my folks and I are based in metros.

Why should I care if Guwahati or Hyderabad are denied a NSG presence? GoI is smart after all.

Yep, I take back my word and proclaim GoI is smart.

Just don't crib next time a non-metro is attacked and casualty count go up due to delayed availaibity of CT units.
I think there should be multiple levels of it, state capitals have a level of highly trained first response team. And the center has a set of highly trained NSGs at four corners. Needs more thought than knee-jerk or chai-biskoot party
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by Raj Malhotra »

Prem wrote:The best lesson we can learn is the urgency of eliminating known Baki assests in India. Start with the Valley and go down to UP, Bihar, bengal, AP and maharashtra. No lesson is learned unless GOI remove article 370 now and let Indian people take care of the root cause of this kind of terrorism.
It will never happen, do you think that GoI can even act against cricket fixing and mumbai film industry which if heavily controlled by D-company and generates reveneues of hundreds of crores of rupees for d-company.

Where is Aamir Khan of Godhara fame?
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by Raj Malhotra »

India should give RAW atleast Rs. 10,000 crore rupees to encourage freedom fighters in Pakistan. Also India should mobilize forces on its border with Pakistan and force them to draw away from their north-west borders. Benefits:-

1. Costs as to proportion of GDP will be 5 times higher for Pakistan
2. Pakistan will stop getting US re-imbursement of Billions of Dollars for doing nothing
3. RAW will find it easier to encourage freedom movements in Pakistan when forces are withdrawn from internal security duties.
4. India can launch a punishing strike say in Jan-Feb to send the message home, weaken Pakistan ruling establishment and give additional space to RAW in Paki North West

Note Sayeed Naqvi is the only journo who has said that India should have retaliated on 27th November itself rather than crying & begging before the world.

(cross post)
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by John Snow »

The title of this thread should be changed to do justice to Indian Admins and polite. I suggest the following


Lessons imparted by terrorists to Indians but never learned by Indians.

( Indians are bad students indeed)
********

Sorry Raj Malhotra ji>> Giving Money to RAW is waste of money. RAW is only used to spy on fellow Indians (opposition) and black mail into submission.

Dismantle RAW, DRI, CBI and IB , the free press will investigate and report on intelligence.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by Raj Malhotra »

Note also:- There is desperate feeling in general congress cadre, that political leadership must attack Pakistan or they will be wiped out in General elections. They know that posturing like Parakaram will have no benefits. I have personally talked with some senior people and they (feel-want-hope-know) that something will be done. Personally I think that nothing is going to happen.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by SaiK »

It also exposed our cultural loopholes. Our ways (the real) of living driving our ethos being exposed about the unstable nature of the platform in which it lives.

All these while, the stability was sponsored by the same ethos, when like all tolerance values have exceeded, shows a barren land for terrorist play. The fundamental core principles of living, has to change.

Time has come to shove that British ways of living, constitution, yadi yada history crap!.. MG would have done the same now. Throw away all ways of -isms, and look after ourselves looking ahead into a modern India. Think what happened to Japan after the bombings..

Or is that we are still waiting something else to happen within that tolerance values. Can we do some basic steps:-

Prepare all that we can't tolerate list? and make it part.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by John Snow »

On a optimystic note (Rajesh A ji) we saved a lot of money as NSA did not consume any Chai Biscoot or Samosa! Why? Have they changed in their taste? Nooo, They just did not meet :mrgreen:

Who is incharge? ( From Rediff)

A critical question which remains unanswered about the Mumbai attacks and the Indian's state response during the 60-hour siege of India's economic soul is who was in charge of the operations?
No one. This brief answer sums up India's efforts to counter terrorism which has been growing in both size and dimension over the years.
:)

This brings us to the next question: Who should have been in charge of the operations? The answer is: The National Security Advisor. (JEM Saar please note! Cant blame Naryanan, No man can serve two masters, one India the other Sonia. The saying is from Bible too!)

For almost three days, a handful of terrorists (we are still not sure how many) held Mumbai, and the country, to ransom while more than a 1,000-strong (could be more) remained engaged in counter measures which were, at best, partially successful.

Emotions have no place in such a situation. It is all very well to commend the commandos; they certainly did a wonderful job and deserve kudos. They could have done better. The country expects no less; there are no second opportunities in such circumstances. It is not the first time that we are dealing with acts of terror; perhaps the scale and audacity of the attacks are vastly different. By now we should have had a clearly laid down procedure to deal with such a crisis situation.

The fact that there was no one person who knew what was going on in Mumbai showed no sign of such a procedure. For two days, no one moved to take charge, neither in Mumbai nor in Delhi [Images]. Also called Lisa Fair in Styles of leadership :mrgreen:

In Delhi, there was no sign of any Crisis Management Group meeting either; and in the meeting which the prime minister called, he kept out, at least that was what the media reported, the Union home minister and the National Security Advisor. So it is any body's guess who briefed the meeting about the development, threats, intelligence warnings and what should be done next.
In Mumbai, there were too heads who were running the show. The local police chief was on the job; so was the director general of police, besides the political leaders, including the chief minister and the home minister, all quite eager to go live on television channels. Then there were the National Security Guard commandos, the Marine Commandos, the Army and the Coast Guard. So they all took turns to address the media and monitor the operations.

Since there was no one in charge, there was chaos on the ground; no one reigned in the media, no one thought of securing the area, keep the media and the public away from the scene, coordinate with medical teams and figure out how to keep the casualties low. No command and control centre was set up, even thought of. No control rooms were established in Mumbai or Delhi.

There were neither any First Response Teams or Quick Reaction Teams. The First responder, the Mumbai police's Anti-Terrorism Squad, were neither equipped nor aware of the immensity of the situation they were getting into, and therefore lost some of the best officers. (Nothing New as I said its like Kargil all over no one knew how many infiltrated regulars or not while our COAS was playing Golf, GF was BSing to press)

While there are well-thought out post-crisis management plans for earthquakes, droughts and locust invasion, there is none to handle a terrorist incident of the magnitude which Mumbai has witnessed. There is a body called the National Crisis Management Committee headed by the Cabinet Secretary with the Secretaries of Home, Defence and other ministries as members. This committee, at least in times of natural crises, entrusted with the task of coordinating rescue, relief and rehabilitation measures.

This committee also oversees the Crisis Management Group which is supposed to be summoned in times of terrorist attacks or hijackings. The last terrorism-related crisis which saw the CMG meeting was the 1999 Kandahar hijacking. The CMG faced flak over the delay in deciding how to handle the hijacked plane which had landed in Amritsar [Images] for refueling. There is no news of any such meeting being convened during the two-day long terrorist crisis which India faced.
Wilson John is Senior Fellow, Observer Research Foundation
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by SRoy »

Raj Malhotra wrote:There is desperate feeling in general congress cadre, that political leadership must attack Pakistan or they will be wiped out in General elections.
Just met folks from well to do Delhi middle/class on Sunday that have voted for the party you named on Saturday's polling.
Aam janta doesn't care beyond "politicians are to blame" mouthfuls and candlelight tamashas.
lakshmikanth wrote:{I meant the cacophony in the Govt saaar! Plus I think its in the desi blood :)}
I think there should be multiple levels of it, state capitals have a level of highly trained first response team. And the center has a set of highly trained NSGs at four corners. Needs more thought than knee-jerk or chai-biskoot party
Sorry. I misunderstood your post.
Yes CT units needs to be stationed at every state, not necessarily the capitals but ensuring a good geographical spread, nearby to airfields.

On a second thought...there is serious need to reorganise the police forces, relook into the State vs. Centre list of subjects. The states by themselves will never be able do justice.

Just look at the number of uniformed services during the Mumbai operations. People complaining about absence of unified command and control need to look into this aspects. Ideally one CT oufit (to conduct the operations) assisted by either army or armed police (to secure the perimeter of the area) should be present.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by Muppalla »

Raj Malhotra wrote:Note also:- There is desperate feeling in general congress cadre, that political leadership must attack Pakistan or they will be wiped out in General elections. They know that posturing like Parakaram will have no benefits. I have personally talked with some senior people and they (feel-want-hope-know) that something will be done. Personally I think that nothing is going to happen.
They have to and will do this. The reason is because they lost all their plots against the opposition. The cadre and fence sitters will just move out of congress in if there is no action. This is known to the high command and they will think in thees lines even if they do not like. If they still do not think then they are pure and simple traitors as opposed to just being nalayak.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by enqyoob »

Some distance back, I posted the following question.
Did you watch the way the police at the roadblock reacted to the terrorist-driven car? Any comments? For instance, what if those terrorists had a bomb in the back seat?

Indian law enforcement people (and everyone else but the politicians, down to the hotel receptionists!) have NOOOOOOO lack of personal courage or sheer death-defying instinctive heroism and sense of duty, but WHY does the training not emphasize elementary precautions to reduce casualties among these heroes?


Munnaji, I read your response, but I don't agree that "exotic" training is needed for this. There are other ways.

Now let me post what I see as the most fundamental lesson. Read the above first, and then consider what we have all seen in dealing with Paki terrorists:
1) Hijacking of the IA flight and the cold-blooded murder of Rupin Katyal by General Musharraf's heroes:
2) Torture-murder of so many soldiers who surrendered to Pakis (I don't want to inflame old wounds by repeating names except for one: Lt. Kalia.
3) 9/11 airplane hijackings- all 4 airplanes. Pilots and flight attendants were murdered in cold blood using box-cutters etc.
4) Now each of these mass-murders: CST station, hospital, Oberoi, Taj, Nariman House. Read carefully how they herded the creme-de-la-creme of Mumbai society up into a stairwell, lined them up against the wall, stood at both ends and simply machine-gunned everyone so they all collapsed in a head. Then they came back hours later, grinning, to take pictures of their accomplishment to send to their goats and goat-lover masters in Lahore and Islamabad. I am not writing my conclusions on how the Jewish family died.

That lesson is the following (excuse the bold-face): I hope it doesn't ever come to this for any of is, but if it does, it may save many innocent lives, including, with about 50% probability, yours.

WHEN CONFRONTED WITH PAKI TERRORISTS, RUSH THEM IMMEDIATELY, THROWING ANYTHING YOU CAN GRAB AT THEIR FACES, AND TRY TO KICK THEM IN THEIR GOLAS. I HAVE NO CHANCE OF LIVING IF I LET THEM CAPTURE ME, SO MIGHT AS WELL GO FAST.


This lesson has to be taught starting in kindergarten to every Indian. In fact, in the US, this has already spread quite well. The Shoe Bomber was caught because passengers rushed him. If they had sat around pretending that it wasn't their business, let the Delta Force and SEALS come in and tackle him, none would have survived. There have been other incidents around the world where hijackers carrying weapons have been tackled, and some killed, by passengers who just rose (a) FAST and (2) WITHOUT WAITING FOR OTHERS.

This goes exactly against the advice drilled into most of us that a wallet is not worth ur life, hand it over to a mugger, etc. etc. Most of the world's negotiate-with-criminals tactics have been developed on the theory that even criminals had some human cells in their brains and could be persuaded, given time, to see the Light.

But these are PAKIS. The above does not work.

If I rush them I will probably die, and almost certainly suffer wounds. But if I DON'T rush them, I will CERTAINLY die, and so will many others. And my guess is that being Pakis, if 5 people come at them, they will turn from being Bradfordistan Tigers into the whining Paki slime that they are.

NOW pls go back and look at the Mumbaikars rushing the Pakis when the Skoda came to a stop. Result: One human hero dead. One Paki slime put out of its misery, the other now squealing away the rest of its miserable existence.

This is the ONLY tactic that works, when UNARMED humans are faced with Pakis.

But at a roadblock, the reaction should have been completely different, and the armed people should have taken cover and blasted the car's tires and windows, then ordered the Pakis to come out with their arms held high, and step over and lie on the road, some 50 yards away from the car. And shoot at the slightest hesitation.
animesharma
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by animesharma »

John Snow wrote:
Sorry Raj Malhotra ji>> Giving Money to RAW is waste of money. RAW is only used to spy on fellow Indians (opposition) and black mail into submission.

Dismantle RAW, DRI, CBI and IB , the free press will investigate and report on intelligence.
the truth is,according to info available on public media,RAW is a toothless organization. it can collect information from its sub-standard equipments and training. But it doesn't have the capability to strike deep inside enemy territory. Even these terrorists are having better intelligence and covert action ability then RAW.
RAW needs an immediate upgradation.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by Manu »

I spoke to a few Congress people today at the IIC. There is a general feeling of despair in the ranks of Congress (although the people were not inner circle of Mataji but Congress Leaders from former Punjab and current Delhi Governments - this is the wedding season so a lot of the former are in Delhi these days). They are confessing they can't do anything. This is completely unlike Punjab (where peace came, but only after a bloodbath). Here it is not Jat Sikhs (Police) Fighting Jat Sikhs (Terrorists) in Pinds all across Punjab in the dead of the night under President's Rule.

There are 13 Crore Muslims all across India. Assuming even a small % of them are Paki Sympathizers, we cannot localize the problem. We cannot go to War with Pakis because of Nuclear Weapons and the China Factor. And our Military is ridiculously unprepared w.r.t. modern weaponry to fight a two front war. This is their view.

Please note that it was Sardar Beant Singh (and not KPS Gill) who was instrumental in solving Punjab Problem. He was of Congress. So was Our newly appointed Home Minister. He was State Minister for Home Affairs (Junior) at the time. So nothing is possible without Strong Political Will. Congress had developed that will under Beant Singh, Balram Jhakkar and most of all, Pamulaparti Venkata Narasimha Rao (sorely missed today). Under Mataji, they are a shadow of their past. Remember, it was under Rao that TADA was passed.

Before the Mumbai incident, the chattering classes thought that Islamic terrorism is a poor man’s problem. That Bombs will go off in Assam or some other “remote place” or worst at places like Sarojini Nagar. Now, people who frequent Gymkhana, Delhi Golf Club, IIC and Habitat are also worried, but not nearly as much as they were in the dark days of the Punjab problem. Just as no one remembers the Lalru incident in Punjab, because the dead were “commoners”. I think it will take many massacres of Rich, Influential People (as eventually happened in Punjab) for the chattering classes (and consequently, the Government) to finally wake up to the problem. We only wake up when it seems that all is lost. I can’t even remember how many funerals I went to in Punjab in the 80s. IAS, IPS officers, Director of AIR, Prominent Businessmen of Ludhiana, Editors of Punjab Kesari - basically the cream of the society. The last one being in 1995 of Sardar Beant Singh himself (along with R S Mann).

The view is that unlike CRPF, BSF and of course the Army, the Indian Police is neither equipped nor trained to fight terrorism. And they don't have the same "Jazba" to do or die as the aforementioned three organizations. Speaking of Punjab again, Beant Singh, when he became CM, told Narasimha Rao, "people will die, some innocent". He was given a free hand, in turn, he gave a free hand to KPS Gill (who was largely ineffective before Beant Singh came to the CM position - and has now taken all the credit as Beant Singh ji is dead). The DSPs were promoted to SSPs - made warlords of their districts and could literally kill anyone. The Army would surround the outer perimeter of the Pind, the Police would go in, based largely on information provided by villagers, and simply massacre the terrorists (and not all killed were terrorists - for example in Tarn taran). Although I don't like to stereotype people, the Jat Sikhs are natural fighters, and it was, in the end, an Inter-Jat fight.

With Islamic Terrorism, we will have to become a Police State with unprecedented levels of security to fight this menace. And also, our political leaders, of all parties, will finally have to realize that a good section of the IM are radicalized. But under the current UPA, in my view, we are doomed.

This is a long ramble, so I will end by saying this. I also spoke to Jagmohan's (Former Governor of J&K and Union Minister in NDA Govt.) security Guards today at the IIC. Some of you may remember, that Benazir Bhutto in a speech had directly threatened his life. The guards had what we popularly call Sten Guns.

The last time they were fired in a live Fire Exercise was in 2004.

If someone has some quick steps that can be taken, even as a first step, I’m all ears.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by John Snow »

Load of bull crap.

Where there are balls there are ways.

Scared IM
Scared Pak Nukes
Scared of Economy tanking
Scared of Sanctions
Scared of sectarian voilence
Sacred of long repurcussions
Sacred of Unkil
Sacred of what will others think
Sacred of losing gaddi.

****
Man this real MK Gandhi was a superman to have taken on the empire and these useless bast$Ds are inheritors of that party.

Give me break.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by Manu »

Spinster, I am only telling the forum the views of prominent Congress persons (total 4 people) from Punjab and Delhi Governments.

The folks at the center may have a different point of view, but going by what I have observed and read, I will hold my breath.

The Congress is out of ideas. It is not the Same Congress we had earlier. That Congress died with PVN Rao.

My personal views are that many rich and prominent people have to suffer repeatedly till some strong action is taken. That is the only parallel I can draw with Punjab Terrorism (where I grew up - with security escorting me to school).
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by RajeshA »

narayanan wrote:WHEN CONFRONTED WITH PAKI TERRORISTS, RUSH THEM IMMEDIATELY, THROWING ANYTHING YOU CAN GRAB AT THEIR FACES, AND TRY TO KICK THEM IN THEIR GOLAS. I HAVE NO CHANCE OF LIVING IF I LET THEM CAPTURE ME, SO MIGHT AS WELL GO FAST.

If I rush them I will probably die, and almost certainly suffer wounds. But if I DON'T rush them, I will CERTAINLY die, and so will many others. And my guess is that being Pakis, if 5 people come at them, they will turn from being Bradfordistan Tigers into the whining Paki slime that they are.
narayanan,

Very good and useful points.

As the attacks from these terrorists become more and more daring, our defenses should also need to keep pace.

That is why I keep on telling people. Go to the Gym and work out! It may help you survive, and if you do not come across a terrorist, you will still live 15 years longer.
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by VikramS »

John Snow wrote:dont blame the politicians,
the IPS IAS all have officers association. It is these spineless officers who want to carry chappals of the politicos.

I wish the NSG cadre fire a namaskar baan at the feet of A chut anandan for his garbage utterences against the father of a brave major who died for the cause.
What do officer's association have to do with political control? The fact remains that ANY officer who is not seen as compliant is transferred by the politicians. If the officer's do not want their family to be moving from one district to another every six months, they have to play ball.

The Indian Services are set up in a structure which is not dramatically different from the times of the Raj. The goals and objectives of that period are dramatically different from the goals and objectives today. However that is not reflected in the organizational structure. Further the outdated rules of no officer serving in an area for more than three years etc., means that there is not much time left for an officer to implement meaningful change, after they have become comfortable with the area and its power brokers. The people who will be affected can easily wait it out since they know the guy will be gone in a few quarters.

Can Mumbai police go after the underworld with full vengeance with the underworld having so many political supporters?
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by John Snow »

Manu garu ( Shaib) I realize(d) and agree you are reporting what you heard from the herd!
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by John Snow »

By prior law Armed forces and para military organizations wer banned from forming associations.
This was relaxed to accomodate IPS cadre, and what primary purpose was this association was to serve.

To protect the abuse of politicians should the IPS cadre be harrassed by netas.

So ardhat if The IPS had (balls) oops I mean Gall they can easily take on the netas. But then the easy route to easy money is to co opt, which our desi are excellent at.

***
Added transfers are part of the deal for all india cadre and so are deputations.

Where there is gall there is way.

The whole of bollywood and tollywood movies are there for inspiration to beat up politicians :mrgreen:
Last edited by John Snow on 03 Dec 2008 20:02, edited 1 time in total.
SaiK
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by SaiK »

does anyone know what was the % of voting for congress, and how many did not vote?
ramana
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by ramana »

John Snow I realize you are under a lot of hurt. All of us are. You need to stop shooting the messenger and ranting. If you recall I asked all whine and rants to be confined to the Terrorist attack on Mumbai thread. Please dont make our task more difficult. Thanks, ramana
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by amdavadi »

cross posted from other thread..

Deshmukh goes as he was ask to resign
VikramS
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by VikramS »

R_Kumar wrote:
VikramS wrote:The fundamental problem in India is that the police at the mercy of the politicains and can not act independently.
I am going to comment something which is not directly related to the topic so please pardon me.

Do you get any confidence when you see police on the street?
The answer is, even if you are an innocent person you get scared when you see police. British made sure that average person gets scared looking at the khaki. But shouldn't have we changed that impression after independence? Well we didn't.
That is exactly the point. The role of Police has not evolved and just like the Britisher's kept a tight leash on the Police, the politicians do just the same. A significant amount of police energy goes into politically motivated tasks. And they have little or no morale left to chase politically supported criminals.

Structural reforms in the attitude and the role of the police in the society have to start at the top. Remember that most poice officers are come from primarily middle class (dominated by the lower middle) and not different from other Indians.

And let us not talk about the training and equipment most police forces operate in. The RPF guy challenging the terrorists with a .303 was an ample example. And please do not brush all policemen as evil. Most of them spend a bulk of the day solving problems and helping people out.

And John Snow: Simplye because transfers are a part of the system does not mean that they are counterproductive. And this association you refer to, what all has it been able to achieve?
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Re: Lessons Learned from Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Post by Div »

There are many faults that can be picked - I will highlight one lesson that can hopefully be learned.

Public Relations/Crisis Management
There needs to be some sort of a local emergency management team (I don't mean some high level group comprised of ministers/politicians in Delhi) that would co-ordinate all law enforcement actions, gather and analyze the various bits of intelligence and also be the single source of information for the media. It was ridiculous to see so many different politicians and law enforcement/military officials giving totally different accounts of the situation.
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