Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

George J
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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby George J » 01 Dec 2008 11:04

Johann wrote:..........It is considerably faster for 'high profile' targets in the larger cities, say Union Station in NYC, or LAX airport - ie downtown areas, and transportation hubs, the kind of targets terrorists favour - closer to 15 minutes.


Errr says who? What is the precedence? You made the tall claim that I just shot down for you. You are NOT qualified to hypothesize and then use that to ding the marcos response time. You are on really thin ice.

Ramana:
Err nope. IF the current DGP quits the next in line is S.S Virk (he was not in cadre for long time, he was deputed to Punjab during the terrorism there and was shot, and then came back to MH around DGP nomination time), S. Chakraborty only has a few months left. CP of Mumbai is DGP level position so they are only off by 1 batch, I think. Too many names there.

Rest:
[innocent question] So when you kick out officers with 30+ years of experience and other politicians, all this will go a LONG WAY in us having tea at RYK? This will miraculously change the Bangaluru IT-Vity types from whining the next time there is a Parakram Stunt? I donno haan! I am just asking. You guys are the "gurus", I only want tea at RYK[/innocent question]
Last edited by George J on 01 Dec 2008 11:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Dmurphy » 01 Dec 2008 11:05

Rice visit to tone down Indian anger against Pakistan
As tensions ratcheted up with India pointing an accusing finger at Pakistan for the terrorist attacks in Mumbai, United States President George W Bush [Images] called up Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [Images] for a second time to offer him all assistance in investigating this tragedy, even as he instructed Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice [Images] to go to New Delhi [Images] to offer his and the United States' condolences and to tone down India's angry rhetoric against Islamabad [Images] which could spill over to a military conflict that would undermine the US war against Al Qaeda [Images] in Afghanistan.
Officials said Dr Rice would visit India on Wednesday, following her meeting with NATO leaders in Brussels on Tuesday. It was likely that Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, would also travel to Pakistan at about the same time for discussions with Pakistani civilian and military leaders to pressure them into turning their words into action is clamping down and destroying any terrorist training camps in Pakistani territory.

Bush's decision to dispatch Dr Rice following his second call to Dr Singh coincided with concern being expressed by senior US lawmakers over the rising India-Pakistan tensions and Pakistan's Ambassador to the US, Husain Haqqani saying that 'if there is any troop build-up on our eastern border, we will certainly have to take defensive positions, and unfortunately that may mean bringing troops from the Western border.'

Senator Richard Lugar, the much respected ranking Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, appearing on ABC's This Week, said, 'We are going to have to move very rapidly ourselves -- that is the United States of America -- to make certain that our forces in Afghanistan, quite apart from what we are doing in Iraq, are protected, while the rest of this goes on with two very high level countries.'

Another senior and influential Republican lawmaker, Senator Arlen Specter, said, 'The tensions are high and the consequences could be disastrous.'

He told CNN's Late Edition, 'You have two major nations with nuclear weapons -- there's been heavy tension in the past and anything could explode.'

'And,' Specter added, 'it's very important for the United States government to play the soothing role. Let's keep cool. Let's find out who's responsible and it's important that the Pakistani government has said, we are with you, India, and we will take action against any terrorist group.'

'But it's a critical difference to point out that it's a terrorist group in Pakistan,' he argued, taking Pakistan's denial of any official complicity in the terrorist attacks at face value. 'After all, the terrorists in Pakistan, assassinated Benazir Bhutto [Images]. And, when you have terrorists at work, it is not the work of the Pakistani government.'

Senator Robert Menendez, a Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, agreed with Specter's contention that the US has to move quickly to calm the rising tensions between India and Pakistan, saying, 'This is one of these critical moments where the United States can play a role in making sure that both Pakistanis and Indians cool the present passion and we get to the facts so we can understand whether in fact it's simply elements in Pakistan that conducted these terrorist attacks.'

He said such a role by the US was also imperative so as to 'see the response of the Pakistani government, if that is established as they move against these elements and that produces good faith with the Indians.'

'What we don't need is a repeat of what happened several years ago when these nations sent troops to their respective borders and escalated... these are two nuclear nations that ultimately we cannot have in confrontation,' he said.

Menendez thus reiterated that 'it's an important moment for diplomacy as well. And, I am glad that our government has sent teams, particularly, the FBI to help the Indians so we can determine what the truth is.'

Another senior Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, also saying he was glad that the Pakistanis have assured India that it's ready to help with the investigation and work with India to get to the bottom of these attacks, said he hoped this could lead to new alliances in the region arrayed against such international terrorism.

'Out of this could come collaborations and partnerships we haven't seen before between Afghanistan, Pakistan and India,' he said, and hoped for a 'joint vision, strategic vision and tactical operations to go after terrorists that reside in the region.'


No need to send Menon to US to do some chaatugiri in our favour, as thats NOT gonna happen. Sending Menon to amriki would seem like a cranky boy who's candy's been snateched away by a classroom bully. Condi will come here and tell us just that. We are indeed, on our own.
Last edited by Dmurphy on 01 Dec 2008 11:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby trivedi » 01 Dec 2008 11:06

Acharya wrote:
[b]

After Obama's victory, the world felt optimistic. That India and Pakistan (a democracy again) were at last trying to rebuild trust gave pause for cautious hope. The Mumbai terrorists shattered all that and once more, we are lost in misinformation and misapprehension.

y.alibhai-brown@independent.co.uk


Y'know I actually like Obama but wtf is up with this "After Obama was elected , I thought all evil in the world has ended, but evil still exists!" crap that every single 'writer' is now pulling.

What does the election of Obama have to do with the TSP problem? And he's not even been sworn in.

/rant
/not my only problem with the article

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Anujan » 01 Dec 2008 11:07

Johann wrote:Lakshmi C,

Those are MP-5s. Are you sure that picture isnt of the NSG's kit? They carry the MP-5

All of the images and reports I have seen show the terrorists carrying AKs, probably AK-56s, which are what the jihadis use most commonly


Johann, they image was captioned "Several weapons were recovered after the commando operation at the Taj Mahal Palace & Tower in Mumbai. The siege at the hotel was the last to end." by washingtonpost which was quoting the associated press.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby a_kumar » 01 Dec 2008 11:10

Philip wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/terrorist-outlaws-ndash-or-a-group-with-friends-in-high-places-1042724.html

Terrorist outlaws – or a group with friends in high places?

By Kim Sengupta
.....
The group calls for the destruction of India and Israel, and also has the professed aim of introducing Islam wherever there had been a significant Muslim population any time in history, including Spain, Russia and China. Lashkar also advocates the establishment of Sharia law and the Muslim "universal ummah" within Muslim communities in the West including the UK.


Good to know one portal has identified the true charter of JeT.. This needs to be highlighted more in mails to every newsite that cliams JeT is fighting in Kashmir (implying that is the only reason for their fight). We need to highlight that LeT wants destruction of India.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby trivedi » 01 Dec 2008 11:11

akl wrote:
Austin wrote:There are talks of PMO Prithiviraj Chauhan as CM of MAH , Mumbai Police commisioner is Pawar perrogative , who ever he chooses becomes the commisioner of Mumbai

They say if big shots will go now , it will hamper investigation , any way just resigning will not change the system , we need inistitutions and mindset to change


Just resigning won't change anything, but it will send a clear message that BULLSHIT will not be tolerated, so that it sets an example all around.


Any *clear* message that bullshit will not be tolerated would involve putting a tape on Rajdeep and Barkha's mouths and cutting off Amarsingh's tongue (as a start).

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby SandeepA » 01 Dec 2008 11:12

A comment by a rediff reader..


Our brave commandos killed terrorists, who came by Boats. But what about those who come by Votes ???

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Dmurphy » 01 Dec 2008 11:15

trivedi wrote:cutting off Amarsingh's tongue (as a start).
Just the tongue? You sure of that?? Sure seems generous to me.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Rahul M » 01 Dec 2008 11:20

SandeepA wrote:A comment by a rediff reader..


Our brave commandos killed terrorists, who came by Boats. But what about those who come by Votes ???

this can become a perfect slogan with attendant caricatures and sketches.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Dipanker » 01 Dec 2008 11:23

AlbertPinto wrote:
I suspect that this extreme publicity by the western media to Mumbai is to inoculate their population about an impending carnage in their own cities. All western cities have huge pile of arms, sleazy underground mafias that can be made to do false flag operations and an easily scared general public. Add to that, the abundance of socially disadvantaged and pissed off people of color/ethnicity and you really dont need an islamic group to start off such stunts.


What a load of crap, when was the last time such a false flag stunt was started? Can you cite just one example? Any example?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby sivabala » 01 Dec 2008 11:24

Though, I had been a BR reader for the past 4 years, this national tragedy is too horrible for me to be silent. I believe the worst of the news is yet to come. Those who advice peace or postponement of tough actions are not aware of the lives lost. When just two terrorrists can kill around 80 civilians in CST alone, what kind of damaged would have been done by the rest of the eight who nearly had a free hand in 2 five star hotels and restaurants, where almost all the people are like sitting ducks with no place to run. the terrorists ran amok for atleast 8 hours. I dont think the Marcos took down any terrorists in the first 8 hours. If all the pigs were alive until NSG came in i.e. 9 hours , the number of dead would be huge.

If the death count was limited to 200 I dont think this govt would have taken the decision to sack hon'ble HM. Because, in previous cases we have faced such losses. Even though the terrorists asked for US, UK, Israeli passport holders, the numbe of foreigners dead is only 22. Usually, the 5 star hotels have more foreign people. I believe the 22 count is only from area, where the terrorists never struck again, and the security forces were able to remove their bodies. So the number of foreigners dead as 22 seems to be incomplete.

Releasing the actual count of dead will show the terrorists operational success. If we dont release the actual # of dead no country will support us in any action. If we release the number the country will crow for a war. Our position at present may not suitable for war. Because for the last 4 years our nails and tooth were left to rot in the name of supporting US in its war against terrorism and not building infrastructure against Pakistan. We are at cross roads. Only time will tell if MMS and his advisors led the country to a disasterously submitting ourselves for next reound of attacks or gloriously loosing couple of thousands of soldiers lives for winning eternal peace for our country by dis-membering Pakistan.
Last edited by sivabala on 01 Dec 2008 11:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Johann » 01 Dec 2008 11:25

George J wrote:
Johann wrote:..........It is considerably faster for 'high profile' targets in the larger cities, say Union Station in NYC, or LAX airport - ie downtown areas, and transportation hubs, the kind of targets terrorists favour - closer to 15 minutes.


Errr says who? What is the precedence? You made the tall claim that I just shot down for you. You are NOT qualified to hypothesize and then use that to ding the marcos response time. You are on really thin ice.


George,

No hypotheses.

You're more than welcome to look up where, and how for example NYPD's Emergency Services Unit Hercules teams patrol, or how each NYPD precinct fields fewer or more Critical Response Vehicles at times of heightened alert around bridges, transport hubs, etc.

Or better yet, since IIRC you live in the US and have first responder training, talk to your police contacts.

This is a model that major US cities are emulating.

Once again, no criticism for the men on the front line. It is only for the decision makers at a far higher level.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby arun_nair » 01 Dec 2008 11:28

Johann wrote:
lakshmic wrote:Image

The weapons used by the pigs. Anyone know what these are ?



Lakshmi C,

Those are MP-5s. Are you sure that picture isnt of the NSG's kit? They carry the MP5, and most operators in Mumbai were equipped with it.

All of the images and reports I have seen show the terrorists carrying AKs, probably AK-56s, which are what the jihadis use most commonly.



These are MP5 carried by the NSG. THe snap is a crop of another snap, where u can see the commando resting after the operation and had kept thier weapons there.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby AdityaM » 01 Dec 2008 11:30

parsuram wrote:Heard on CNN. First encouraging news out of GoI. India to rescend ceasefire agreement with the pakis. This means LOC is going to turn hot. Good going. AmriKhans are not going to like this, with pakis moving troops from NWFP to POK. Thats how the cookie crumbles.


This news is not correct.
Anyways, what benefit is it to rescind on the ceasefire agreement ??
It is pakistan that flouts it anyways, so by removing the agreement, you are only making their job less problem.

India any ways does not flout the agreement & is not expected to.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby trivedi » 01 Dec 2008 11:31

Dipanker wrote:
AlbertPinto wrote:
I suspect that this extreme publicity by the western media to Mumbai is to inoculate their population about an impending carnage in their own cities. All western cities have huge pile of arms, sleazy underground mafias that can be made to do false flag operations and an easily scared general public. Add to that, the abundance of socially disadvantaged and pissed off people of color/ethnicity and you really dont need an islamic group to start off such stunts.


What a load of crap, when was the last time such a false flag stunt was started? Can you cite just one example? Any example?


I second that this is BS. And dude, "people of color" are as un pissed of at this time as can be given that Obama is one of them. How about giving at least some thought to the tenuous threads of logic you weave?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Rahul Shukla » 01 Dec 2008 11:34

The weapon in the Pic is a variant of the Heckler and Koch MP5 (either MP5P3 or MP5P5) which is manufactured under license by Pakistan Ordnance Factory.

Yindoo SF's also use the MP5 but a different version.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby disha » 01 Dec 2008 11:34

sivabala wrote:... When just two terrorrists can kill around 80 civilians in CST alone, what kind of damaged would have been done by the rest of the eight who nearly had a free hand in 2 five star hotels and restaurants.... ....Our position at present may not suitable for war. Because for the last 4 years our nails and tooth were left to rot in the name of supporting US in its war against terrorism and not building infrastructure against Pakistan.....


Dear confused sivabala, a simple question only. Have you wondered what would have happened if the Marcos had not responded at Taj? I believe they also responded at Oberoi.

Also what makes you think that we are not in a position to wage war? And with whom? And in what way in last 4 years our nails and tooth were left to rot? And how come we will fight a modern war with tooth and nails? MMS government and for that matter the Congress government will be consigned to dustbin of history for letting terrorism fester. Whether we wage war or not.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Dhiman » 01 Dec 2008 11:35

Dmurphy wrote:No need to send Menon to US to do some chaatugiri in our favour, as thats NOT gonna happen. Sending Menon to amriki would seem like a cranky boy who's candy's been snateched away by a classroom bully. Condi will come here and tell us just that. We are indeed, on our own.


Its good to chitchat with Condi, but any chitchat should happen after telling Condi: "Either you are with us or you are against us." In any case Obama must be the most relieved man right now. If this would have happened before US elections, he might have just lost given the US media coverage and automatic linkages that people form with 9/11.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby George J » 01 Dec 2008 11:44

Johann:
You said 15 mins response time and STILL can't back it up. I showed you what the reported SWAT response times were and you are asking ME to support your tall tale. I know this is the hot air forum but really you need to generate your own hot air, you cant ask others to do it for you. :)


Austin wrote:There are talks of PMO Prithiviraj Chauhan as CM of MAH , Mumbai Police commisioner is Pawar perrogative , who ever he chooses becomes the commisioner of Mumbai


You are ABSOLUTELY correct, its THE truth but what is wrong in that statement ???!!! This is why I am very disappointed with BRF in general.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby ManuT » 01 Dec 2008 11:47

Rahul Shukla wrote:The weapon in the Pic is a variant of the Heckler and Koch MP5 (either MP5P3 or MP5P5) which is manufactured under license by Pakistan Ordnance Factory.

Yindoo SF's also use the MP5 but a different version.


The Chair looks similar to the Vilasrao's.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby AlbertPinto » 01 Dec 2008 11:48

Dipanker wrote:
AlbertPinto wrote:
I suspect that this extreme publicity by the western media to Mumbai is to inoculate their population about an impending carnage in their own cities. All western cities have huge pile of arms, sleazy underground mafias that can be made to do false flag operations and an easily scared general public. Add to that, the abundance of socially disadvantaged and pissed off people of color/ethnicity and you really dont need an islamic group to start off such stunts.


What a load of crap, when was the last time such a false flag stunt was started? Can you cite just one example? Any example?


Dear Mr Dipankar:

I did not write that. You probably picked it up from the the quoted original message by someone that I replied to.

Thanks and Regards,
AP

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby svinayak » 01 Dec 2008 11:49


India says all Mumbai attackers from Pakistan


43 minutes ago

MUMBAI (AFP) — The Mumbai attackers were all from Pakistan, India's deputy interior minister said on Monday, stopping short of blaming the government in Islamabad for last week's carnage which left more than 170 dead.

As the US announced Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would head to India in a show of "solidarity," the comments from Deputy Home Minister Shakeel Ahmad were the strongest yet pointing a finger of blame across the border.

India and Pakistan, both armed with nuclear weapons, have fought three wars and nearly came to a fourth over a previous attack on Indian soil, and there have been fears the latest bloodshed could deepen tensions between them.

"We are not saying that it is sponsored by the Pakistan government," India's Deputy Home Minister Shakeel Ahmad told the BBC, adding that Pakistani soil was nevertheless being used for "anti-India" activities.

"The terrorists who have been killed in these encounters in Mumbai in the last few days were of Pakistani origin," Ahmad said, as well as the lone gunman arrested after the stunning coordinated attacks in India's financial capital.

With a sense of normalcy only slowly returning to the sprawling city, the focus has turned to who might be responsible for the brazen grenade and gun assault on two luxury hotels, a hospital, religious centre and other sites.

Suspicion has fallen on Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba, which is fighting Indian control of the disputed Kashmir and was behind the 2001 attack on the Indian parliament in New Delhi which pushed the neighbours to war.

According to Indian media reports Monday citing unnamed sources, Indian government officials feel that Pakistan has not fully enforced its official ban on the group.

But Pakistan has denied any involvement in the latest bloodshed, which threatens to derail a slow-moving peace process launched in 2004, and Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari has urged India not to "over-react."

Pakistan has repeatedly underlined that it is fighting its own battle against Islamist insurgents, who have taken their bloody campaign to the heart of the Pakistan capital, and stressed the two nations have a common enemy.

"Even if the militants are linked to Lashkar-e-Taiba, who do you think we are fighting?" Zardari told Monday's Financial Times, noting that Pakistan was battling a welter of militant groups along its border with Afghanistan.

"The architects of this calamity in Mumbai have managed to raise a threat on our other border," the president said, referring to the frontier with India.

That comment suggested the Mumbai attacks might prompt Pakistan to consider pulling troops away from the fight against Al-Qaeda and the Taliban along the Afghan border -- a development the United States would surely wish to avoid.

The White House and US State Department announced that Rice would arrive in New Delhi on Wednesday to show solidarity with India.

"It is a fact, a sad fact, that India has now experienced this level of terror," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

"(Rice) and others in the government will be having discussions going forward about cooperating on the war on terror," he said. "Those will go at the pace with whatever the Indian government is comfortable with."

At least 172 people were killed and almost 300 were wounded in the 60-hour assault that began on Wednesday evening. A Jewish centre was among the targets, and eyewitnesses said some attackers singled out Britons and Americans.

India's intelligence and security agencies have come under heavy criticism for the incident, and Home Minister Shivraj Patil resigned Sunday to take what he said was "moral responsibility" over the carnage.

But local media reports said the resignation of the country's influential national security adviser, M.K. Narayanan, had not been accepted.

Tension between India and Pakistan date to the post-independence partition of India in 1947 that created the Islamic state of Pakistan and led to horrific bloodletting between Muslims and Hindus.

India has also had its share of homegrown unrest, from Muslims to Maoists to Hindu extremists, and Indian officials have repeatedly declined to blame Pakistan directly for the Mumbai attacks.

"We have had terrorist attacks before... but this attack was different," Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said on Sunday. "They came with the explicit aim of killing large numbers of innocent civilians, including foreign visitors."

About 30 foreigners were killed including five Americans, two French, two Australians and two Canadians.


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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby hnair » 01 Dec 2008 11:52

Johann,

Let me start off with the easy parts:

My citizenship or origins changes none of those ground truths

This statement is the crux
1) Ground truth? How do I know YOU are speaking that? Or should I believe it because it is YOU, of a certain citizenship and origin? :)
2) Your citizenship and origins matter to any Indian, because your citizenship and origins, to put it bluntly has been the root cause of a lot of crap for people of colored origin for centuries. We politely said "enough!" back in 1947, but that doesnt mean we both are cool enough to try such condescending advices in a time of national anger.
3) India is defiant at this moment. NONE of what you say in defense of your societies matters to us. That said, we shall grieve when such deaths as Mumbai's happen anywhere in the world and we shall wish the law enforcement forces in your countries well.


Johann wrote:
(a) The level of media attention to Mumbai has everything to do with the fact that Western citizens were amongst those targetted - which matters a great deal to the consumers of news back in the home countries of western media outfits.


Yes, we are in agreement on that part right from the beginning - the jihadis who till now were targeting Indians, suddenly went dumb. I am as sad as ever. Nothing changed for me. Maybe for you.

(b) I have not said anything that any number of Indians have not already said for decades regarding political inertia, and the weakness of rule of law in India.

I have not suggested for one second that India ought abandon liberal democracy - in fact that is what has allowed India to survive all of its challenges.

India needs more democracy, not less, and that means all sorts of things, from sensitivity to public concerns, to a government that takes the court system seriously. The issue is not the model, but its application.

To describe the response to Western societies as creating police states is a very poor joke. The right to civil disobedience remains - in fact there's no better way to become an instant hero - Cindy Sheehan or Brian Haw for example are instantly recognised, and are very much untouchable.

In fact I have personally heard retired Indian intelligence officers bitterly complain about the vast resources allocated to political intelligence instead of national security, which exactly mirror what has been written by other retirees in the Indian press. They expected their revelations to create a sensation, instead there was public indifference, which to them was far more crushing than the behaviour of the politicians who ordered them to spy on their opponents in the first place. Watergate simply wouldnt be a scandal in India big enough to bring down a government.


I have been to Chicago last June-July and I personally heard Obama say that white people oppress black people. See? I too got instant credibility for my Colombian dark matter.

Here is another. I know Cindy Sheehan - poor lady never exerted any influence other than that exerted by Jennifer Anniston. She ended up as a sick propaganda peace both inside and outside US. My proof? You are using her here! Tell me what material difference did her brave campaign do to change the fatcats of DC from their ways? None.


(b) You have misunderstood absolutely everything I ever said about MS-13, or similar gangs.

The point was that gangs do not operate out of ideology, or as defenders of community. They operate for profit.

If you think the Cripps are the Black Panthers, or proto-Black Panthers, its sheer fantasy.

They kill anyone weaker than them who stand in their way. Typically that means individuals in their areas who stand up to them (e.g. business or community leaders), or attempt to compete with them for the drug trade. Hence inevitably, the majority of their victims come from *exactly* the same background as them.


Cripps=Black Panthers with a good financial model. Try joining Cripps and get back to me with how the interview went.

I never said ideology, you did. Ideology is something that can be quashed easily in the west. The Chicago univ types make sure of that. But money, now that is an awesome tool. A fact that the "gangs" since Black Panthers found out. BTW, take that as a non-white's viewpoint.

MS-13 started off as a protection racket. Let me drop a name - an officer who later became a Police chief in a US metro area and I used to train for a certain certification (purely sports affair) together. Did his stint with homicide/violent crimes and SWAT at a biggish metro area. Said MS13 was initially very protective of El Salvadorean youth, who were targeted by other gangs and law enforcement.

Again you might also have missed my earlier point: these gangs find that they are being snitched upon by their own community and start going on a rampage against their own kind. They are conveyed in no uncertain terms that gora and only gora is off limits for violence. end result? peaceful "Martha Stewart Living" ambiance for goras, hell for the rest (including central/south americans). Divide and rule, in my books.

If you think that the majority of Latinos in America live in gang contolled areas, that too is fantasy. Spanish Harlem, or East-Central LA are not the kinds of places where the majority of Hispanics in America live. For that matter, the majority of African-Americans do not live in deprived inner-city ghettos - they live in small towns and suburbs throughout the American south occupying every niche in the socio-economic ladder that exists in those areas.

Which is why the most powerful and effective minority leaders have been civil society leaders who represent those perfectly normal communities, people like Ceasr Chavez, or Martin Luther King, not criminals or radicals.


Ceaser Chavez was never threatening. He worked his ass off inside the Latinos, but conformed to dhimmitude. MLK is a different story. He started challenging the spin. And he promptly died of violence "inflicted by his own community member".

All of this is perfectly irrelevant to the thread.


And yet you air dropped a huge load of names and strawmen to my original post :)

Any other time, I dont really care, because I love the warm feeling of sunshine being blown up my ass. But not today. You are accusing OUR government of continuous ineptitude leading to a huge loss of Indian lives and subtly sowing questions into our mind about some stuff that you are saying is the truth. Your claims of Indian intel chiefs confiding with you just confirms that.

George J, I heard worries about long lead times in US too. Though in public they never say that.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby asprinzl » 01 Dec 2008 11:52

Whats up with these media obssession that LeT is a kashmir-based terrorist organization when in fact it is a Pakistan based organization? OK, I can understand if western media morons use that term......but but but....the Desi media?

On retaliation: I dont see hot pursuit. I dont see airstrike. I dont see mobilization on the border and I dont see naval blockade. These are all bad options.

But I can see bombs blowing up PA officers' bus, their kith and kin, ISI Hq, Dawood's kith and kin etc that will make the Mariott look like a child's play. And GOI can always say.....we didnt do it. Probably some bulbs exploded due to power surge.
Avram

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby George J » 01 Dec 2008 12:00

Vilasrao Deshmukh on CNN-IBN wrote:
1) State Security council (like NSC)
2) MH Security Guards (like NSG) in 4 months.
3) Coastal Police Station
4) Fisherman to issue smart ID cards.
5) New State Intelligence Training center to start operations soon.
6) Modernization has been approved by State and Center.
7) 3 new speed boats.
8.) Gallantry Award for those who contributed most, across all depts.
9) Most modern equipment-arms.

I know your interest is elsewhere.

10) State Industrial Security Force, trained but available on payment to pvt sector.
11) RR Patil gives a one line resignation. Accepted and fwd to Gov.
12) He has offered to resign to CWC.
Last edited by George J on 01 Dec 2008 12:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby disha » 01 Dec 2008 12:00

asprinzl wrote: ... some bulbs exploded due to power surge. ...


Right on! This is a kabuki to show the Unkil how difficult its MUNNA is. So when the time comes to kick Munna where it hurts, Unkil will be cheering wildly.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby trivedi » 01 Dec 2008 12:04

asprinzl wrote:
But I can see bombs blowing up PA officers' bus, their kith and kin, ISI Hq, Dawood's kith and kin etc that will make the Mariott look like a child's play. And GOI can always say.....we didnt do it. Probably some bulbs exploded due to power surge.
Avram


If you hadn't revealed that you are from Israel, the above would have :)

Which takes away nothing from the fact that I think those are all probably easier options (with the exception of blowing up of kith and kin - I don't think we need to stoop to that level to defeat them).

I do still think those camps need to be taken out and I don't see anything except targeted missile strikes doing that. I do realize it would be much harder (politically) than tactics you suggest.
Last edited by trivedi on 01 Dec 2008 12:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby lakshmikanth » 01 Dec 2008 12:05

asprinzl wrote:Whats up with these media obssession that LeT is a kashmir-based terrorist organization when in fact it is a Pakistan based organization? OK, I can understand if western media morons use that term......but but but....the Desi media?

On retaliation: I dont see hot pursuit. I dont see airstrike. I dont see mobilization on the border and I dont see naval blockade. These are all bad options.

But I can see bombs blowing up PA officers' bus, their kith and kin, ISI Hq, Dawood's kith and kin etc that will make the Mariott look like a child's play. And GOI can always say.....we didnt do it. Probably some bulbs exploded due to power surge.
Avram


As much as I wish that would be done, I expect that there won't be any political will to do it, the most likely scenario is heads keep rolling for two weeks and then use the DDM to work the spins and hey.. guess what?!!! we are back to square 0!

D Company and politicians have vested interest in each other, they will never do anything agains D Company. In that sense, the political class has more blood in its hands than they are given credit to.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Murugan » 01 Dec 2008 12:05

was the RDX brought for some sinister plot like "radiological dispersal device” (RDD)?

mods
kindly delete if the above is unnecessary

i had this question after reading this prabhu chawla's comment:

Ask Prabhu
Last edited by Murugan on 01 Dec 2008 12:06, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby pradeepe » 01 Dec 2008 12:06

hnair wrote:
Sanjay wrote:None of you have confronted anything like this. Not even in your worst scenarios. The fact is our army has fought and won major wars against an equally well armed and trained adversary. Our IS forces have a slew of tactical successes in COIN ops from J&K to the North East.
.
.
.
.


As an aside and as a message to those in the Western media, anyone who doubts India's proof on Pakistan's involvement and questions India's evidence should remember that they invaded two countries on less of a pretext and the Israelis launch airstrikes against undefended civilian targets anytime one of their civilians gets hit with a stone. India and Indians are sick and tired of self-appointed experts and critics and the supercilious windbags of the Western media and political establishment who sneer at our allegations of Pakistani involvment in terror attacks in India.

By the actions of your so-called experts and the patronizing condescension of your media, you have provided psychological aid and succor to the terrorists who have hurt my people time and time again.

Enough is Enough.


Thanks Sanjay for putting it clearly. There is not a word that I dont agree with 8)

Disclaimer: I do not support any gang violence by any ethnicity, but am interested in the "root causes", that the west's favored ally, Musharraf keeps saying through their own media.

Johann, stop trying to convince us that India should turn into a police state like those in the west or a huge barrack like Israel. I know your postings were highly critical of the Pakis, but a lot of us die because of your country and its big brothers' direct and indirect help. Stop trying to turn us against our own Govt by saying "Indians hurt more than others due to other Indians". We are not going to do that. Thanks.


Fully agree. We need more air time for these views. I view the western world meaning the USA and UK as being almost equally complicit in these terror attacks. You own the pit bull along with China, so please spare us the patronising messages and accept that its your responsibility. Lifes a b**h and we understand. If you want to show your humanity, be truthful and honest. That would be a beginning.

Sometimes I dont know if I hate the the islamofacist monstors or their sugar daddies more.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby amar_ » 01 Dec 2008 12:06

I think we should outsource power surges and blowing bulbs to pakis themselves. I am sure there are enuf abduls on the street in pakistan who dont mind blowing themselves up to get in line to meet the 72 goats in heaven.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby sivabala » 01 Dec 2008 12:07

asprinzl wrote:Whats up with these media obssession that LeT is a kashmir-based terrorist organization when in fact it is a Pakistan based organization? OK, I can understand if western media morons use that term......but but but....the Desi media?

On retaliation: I dont see hot pursuit. I dont see airstrike. I dont see mobilization on the border and I dont see naval blockade. These are all bad options.

But I can see bombs blowing up PA officers' bus, their kith and kin, ISI Hq, Dawood's kith and kin etc that will make the Mariott look like a child's play. And GOI can always say.....we didnt do it. Probably some bulbs exploded due to power surge.
Avram

Dear Asprinzl, Our government is deflecting the public fury through glib talk of mumbai recovering and LET is kashmir liberation organization, etc...
Truth is India is not in a position to do either bad options or good options you have listed. We dont have AEWAC, Aircraft carrier or missile defense.
We dont have assets to bomb ISI's kith and kin. We have closed the tap of 10000 assets during I.K.Gujral's period as PM.
The govt dont have the mettle to release the actual number of dead right now and keep parroting that dead bodies may be booby trapped.
We all have to wait and pray for allah to bring wrath on his pigs. Becos Indian govt is not in a position to lift a finger against pigs.
Last edited by sivabala on 01 Dec 2008 12:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby George J » 01 Dec 2008 12:08

asprinzl wrote:But I can see bombs blowing up PA officers' bus, their kith and kin, ISI Hq, Dawood's kith and kin etc that will make the Mariott look like a child's play. And GOI can always say.....we didnt do it. Probably some bulbs exploded due to power surge.
Avram


May there be "clarified butter" and "Sugar" in your mouth. (its a compliment trust me). But for it work Israel MUST take the lead. There are things that Israel can do that India cannot. And believe me it NOT the execution but the "persuasion". We have not been very successful in persuading folks to MYOB/Acquiesce and let us do what we need to do.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Sai » 01 Dec 2008 12:09


asprinzl
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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby asprinzl » 01 Dec 2008 12:12

trivedi wrote:
asprinzl wrote:
But I can see bombs blowing up PA officers' bus, their kith and kin, ISI Hq, Dawood's kith and kin etc that will make the Mariott look like a child's play. And GOI can always say.....we didnt do it. Probably some bulbs exploded due to power surge.
Avram


If you hadn't revealed that you are from Israel, the above would have :)

Which takes away nothing from the fact that I think those are all probably easier options (with the exception of blowing up of kith and kin - I don't think we need to stoop to that level to defeat them).

I do still think those camps need to be taken out and I don't see anything except targeted missile strikes doing that. I do realize it would be much harder (politically) than tactics you suggest.


Targeted missile strikes? From airplanes or surface to surfacemissiles? Either way it will conclusively reveal that the strikes originated from India. For India to deny responsibilities even if suspicion is raised, unconventional venue is best. Not saying that kith and kin should be targeted but attacks should be carried out without the worry of civillian casualties handicapping the mission.
AS

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby Johann » 01 Dec 2008 12:15

George,

I did not say what I said based on what I read on the web. It was based on what contact with police forces in NYC and LA.

However, searching around on the web, this is what is available on NYC - but none of it will beat talking to policemen, and if you can do it, then do it.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/admin ... nits.shtml
http://hsgac.senate.gov/_files/091206Falkenrath.pdf
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/new ... es/n_8286/
http://www.nypdangels.com/cop/cop.php?id=704
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcKk_kBrdk4
http://www.nysun.com/foreign/nypd-racin ... way/35895/
http://www.nysun.com/new-york/counterte ... ith/39391/

Between all of that you should be able to see that there is intensive, intelligence driven SWAT patrolling around all major potential targets.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby krishnan » 01 Dec 2008 12:18

Few days of power cut will do some moral damage too. But i dunno whether we have that capability to carry out such a thing

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby SSridhar » 01 Dec 2008 12:23

Acharya wrote:

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Muslims must confront the truth about Mumbai

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 42753.html

There must be Muslims in India who are supporting the unsupportable

. . . .

y.alibhai-brown@independent.co.uk


She was the one I was referring to in my earlier post when I described the BBC panel discussion on the Mumbai terror attack. She was the only one, among the four, who constantly called the bluff of the Pakistani journalist who was also a part of the discussion. She was relentless and everytime made the Pakistani mumble and squirm or try to change the discourse. Even then, she wouldn't let him go. I enjoyed it. There was an Indian as well who rather timidly kept quiet.

I have written her a mail complimenting her performance and dishing out some more facts that may be useful in another round of confrontation. I have also indicated to her I am ready to share the whole lot of info. that I have.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby venkat_r » 01 Dec 2008 12:31

Sridhar, is there a link to that discussion?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Postby krishnan » 01 Dec 2008 12:51

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/01m ... attack.htm

Warning that militants have the power to precipitate a war in the region, President Asif Ali Zardari [Images] has asked India to "resist striking out at his government" should investigations show that "Pakistani militant groups" were responsible for the attacks in Mumbai.

The Pakistani President said his country should not be punished for the three-day terrorist rampage in Mumbai that killed around 200 people including foreigners.

Zardari asked Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [Images] to "resist striking out at his (Pakistan's) government should investigations show that Pakistani militant groups were responsible for the attacks", the Financial Times reported.

The President warned that provocation by rogue "non-state actors" posed the danger of a return to war between the nuclear armed neighbours.

"Even if the militants are linked to Lashker-e-Taiba, who do you think we are fighting?" Zardari told the daily, referring to Pakistan's operations against al-Qaeda and Taliban [Images] on the border with Afghanistan.

"We live in troubled times where non-state actors have taken us to war before, whether it is the case of those who perpetrated (the) 9/11 (attacks on the US) or contributed to the escalation of the situation in Iraq," Zardari said.

"Now, events in Mumbai tell us that there are ongoing efforts to carry out copycat attacks by militants. We must all stand together to fight out this menace."


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