Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby enqyoob » 16 Dec 2008 22:42

Sai: todin's Indian Express has a whole center page "article" which is FROM PAKISTANI MEDIA (oh, yeah, we need to read that :roll: )

The brilliant theme there was that the terrorist was wearing an orange thread or rubber band and the Indian police have covered up this obvious proof that he is a yindoo.

And you bet there are 1,700,000,000 yindoos who will eagerly lap that up as "proof".

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16997
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rahul M » 16 Dec 2008 23:06

SaiK wrote:
http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/16/stories/2008121655681000.htm
Hawk with transmitters found in Gujarat ..The security agencies, however, are keeping their fingers crossed till the report came from the FSL .

q. how did they train the hawk to go a certain direction of human interest?

this is interesting.. something we need to learn.

not new.

I read similar articles during kargil and parakram. that one was with a camera and was found in rajasthan.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36409
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby SaiK » 16 Dec 2008 23:06

speaks volumes.. mmm.

Prabu
BRFite
Posts: 422
Joined: 22 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: In the middle of a Desert

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Prabu » 16 Dec 2008 23:23

shiv wrote:]
suneels wrote:Hello

Please follow the link below to read a very good analysis on the recent terror attacks
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/12/mumbai-arundhati-roy

Best regards


But too long Too boring. Too pointless.

ARoy has firmly placed herself in the back seat, out of sight and not in control.


ARoy types always try to put the blame on India for Kashmir ! she desrves to be ignored. No matter if an artilce comes from WEST OR ELSEWHERE ON EARTH !

MJ Akbar , just for his e mail to BBC, deserves un conditional appreciation from every Indian ! Irrespective of his past / present beliefs, his motives , religion , caste and creed ! (of course I am NOT a muslim !) Terrorist is terrorist ! He can NEVER be called a Gun man !

The BBC and western media is ALWAYS biased ! very often you can see BBC documentary showing street beggers in Mumbai and elsewhere in India. But it closes its eys from the beggers in UK right under the great LONDON EYE. I was in London, last February. I saw many beggers on streets, right from beggers with dogs, beggers with music instruments, beggers with paintings in their body etc etc ! I can't understnad how these beggers are any different from Indian beggers ?? (the only difference is these beggers have some better clothings ! that is it !) but the act is the same ! no difference ! the same begging ! why BBC dont take documentaries of these beggers instaed of trying to project India as a poor nation ! Shame on BBC and western media ! Shame on Aroy types !

Sorry if i sound little harsh !

Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7002
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Amber G. » 16 Dec 2008 23:24

And you bet there are 1,700,000,000 yindoos who will eagerly lap that up as "proof".

It may be hard to believe, but if you read Paki press, or Deaf and Dumb, looks like 99.99999999872% of all pakis (or atleast the 99.99999999872% pakis talking heads and reporters) are are 99.99% sure that that is a proof.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16997
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rahul M » 16 Dec 2008 23:35

Amber G. wrote:
And you bet there are 1,700,000,000 yindoos who will eagerly lap that up as "proof".

It may be hard to believe, but if you read Paki press, or Deaf and Dumb, looks like 99.99999999872% of all pakis (or atleast the 99.99999999872% pakis talking heads and reporters) are are 99.99% sure that that is a proof.

only voice of sanity. (for a paki)

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=8s0KmbapI8E

kobe
BRFite
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 14:26
Location: Tang Bohu' Village, Suzhou

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby kobe » 17 Dec 2008 00:21

Guys, please stop and think. This forum is deviating towards trivia discussion and not bigger issues.

- posters keep posting news items on paki subterfuge, and what ARoy said and what Jethmalani said. (not to mention exocet missiles on iranian ships.... WHO CARES)

Does it make any difference to discuss what Ram Jethmalani said or what ARoy wrote, or MJ Akbar wrote to BBC? and if certain pig in pakistan thinks that captured pig is hindo or not?

Does it make any difference if pakistan is in denial? or is paki media discussing orange thread etc? Does it bring people back from death?

only thing it does is make light of the serious and heinous crime that has been committed in our city mumbai by pakistani state sponsored terrorism. (as it has happened in the past and it will surely repeat in the future unless we ACT)

my kind request to forum admins to discourage trivia discussion and encourage serious grown up discussion on this particular thread.

We know the truth about brindas, arundhotis, and medha patkars of the world, lets not give them any bandwidth on this forum.

the real question is be how to avoid such massacres (by teaching them a serious lesson this time)

when asked to respond to kerala CM's remarks about not even a dog looking at the Major Unnikrishnan's home; Sonu Nigam said so well, we should think of bigger issues and not junk issues regarding this. 29/11 is a big deal, please lets not trivialise it.

Thank you.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36409
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby SaiK » 17 Dec 2008 00:25

mr kobe, how do you want to teach them a lesson? lets get those drafted here, to start.

kobe
BRFite
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 14:26
Location: Tang Bohu' Village, Suzhou

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby kobe » 17 Dec 2008 00:39

what i am ready to do:

- send money to affected family
- contribute to anti-pak awareness
- tell friends / family / colleagues about pakistan state-sponsored terrorism
- send letters / emails to US congressmen/senators

we can make bumper stickers for indian yuppies/jingoes/
http://www.makestickers.com/

i can make bumper stickers for anyone interested.

it could say for example:

Pakistan = Terrorist State
i am happy to put it on my car, i am sure others will also.

need ideas, need volunteers, need action
any small idea / action should be good and should be welcome

our friends/brothers/sisters and our commandos have been killed, lets do something.

Prabu
BRFite
Posts: 422
Joined: 22 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: In the middle of a Desert

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Prabu » 17 Dec 2008 00:43

narayanan wrote:I was the pilot of the Mirage 2020 that fired all those Exocets. 8)


:rotfl: :rotfl:

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54275
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby ramana » 17 Dec 2008 04:05

Kobe what do you print it on? Is it a standard Avery sticky page? We can even have fundraiser for those bumper stickers.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4449
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby putnanja » 17 Dec 2008 11:02

How West Asia views Mumbai attacks

How West Asia views Mumbai attacks

Atul Aneja

Several West Asian commentators feel that after the Mumbai attacks, India has been co-opted as an active partner of the U.S., Israel and the U.K. in the war on terror or is being “trapped” to join this unseemly coalition.

The Mumbai terror attacks have generated a vigorous debate in West Asia. In most major countries, these are being interpreted as an incident that is likely to usher in a new phase in the so-called global war on terror led by the United States. The war on terrorism, which has so far focussed on Iraq and Afghanistan within the strategic ambit of West Asia, has moved into South Asia with India as its new pillar.

Many, especially in Iran and Saudi Arabia, see the attacks as part of a plot hatched by Washington and some of its allies to stoke a major geopolitical realignment in the wider West Asia-South Asia region. Several commentators are of the view that in the wake of the Mumbai attacks, India has either been co-opted already as an active partner of the U.S., Israel and the U.K. in this war or is being “trapped” to join the unseemly coalition.

With the exception of Israel, there is plenty of sympathy in the Arab and Iranian media for Pakistan, which is seen not as an instigator of the Mumbai attacks but as a victim of this conspiracy. There is a considerably large body of opinion that after the Mumbai attacks, the stage has been set for Pakistan to be targeted militarily during the Obama Presidency. The ultimate objective of a chain of events that could follow Mumbai is to draw both Pakistan and Afghanistan along with India firmly into the western orbit of influence.


So far, the jury is out in the region on the role the Indian state is likely to play in the aftermath of the Mumbai strikes. Sections of the Iranian and Saudi media have either bluntly stated or implied that India is already in the western camp and would be an active player in redrawing the geopolitical map of the region. Some others are, as yet, not so sure.

The influential hardline Iranian daily, Kayhan, said on December 1 that India, the U.S., Britain and Israel were behind the Mumbai terror attacks. It observed that neither the Al-Qaeda nor the Pakistan government was involved in the strikes. Kayhan is known to be close to the Iranian supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, but that does not mean it necessarily reflects his views or that of a majority of Iranians.

‘Vengeance obsession’


The Saudi-owned daily Al Hayat has also voiced suspicion over India’s strategic relationship with the U.S. “The Indian brother may have already given the Americans a mandate to launch wars in the Indian subcontinent, whose management will be India’s responsibility, since it is possessed by the same ‘vengeance obsession’ that struck the Americans [in 2001].”

The Lebanese militant group, Hizbollah, which successfully battled Israel for 33 days in the killing fields of South Lebanon in 2006, does not presume that India is already part of the western camp. But sensing that New Delhi is under enormous pressure to join it, the militant group has counselled India to steer clear of an alliance with the U.S. and Israel. In a statement, Sayyid Nawwaf al-Musawi, Hizbollah’s head for international relations, has recalled India’s image as a country which has not succumbed to pressures of big powers since its independence.

Hizbollah’s stand


“India has been one of the three founder-states of the Non-Aligned Movement, which sought to follow a path that is independent from the hegemony of the arrogant. We have noted that these kinds of attacks that struck India are often a prelude to U.S. security and military interference that confiscates the sovereignty of states at the pretext of fighting terrorism. These attacks will be an opportunity for the U.S. administration to blackmail both Pakistan and India and infringe on their sovereignty.”

The statement also warns India against the pitfalls of depending on Israeli intelligence. It says Israel sets this “additional trap that aims at inundating states with misleading intelligence as well as infiltrating their security and military establishments.”

According to the Hizbollah, those who carried out the Mumbai strikes were of the Takfiri ideological persuasion. It is widely perceived that the Takfiris are extremists who view the entire non-Muslim world as a battleground, with the majority of Muslims also being termed infidels.

The Hizbollah said it rejected “Takfiri ideas which make others targets of killing and aggression ... the deadly Takfiri thought has been tearing apart the body of the Muslim community, [has] inflicted massacres on them and shed much of their blood.”


The Hizbollah pointed out that it did not view conflicts through a religious ideological prism. “Our opinion on divisions and conflicts … are not based on religious, ethnic, or sectarian considerations but on the basis of arrogance and oppression. We stand by the oppressed, regardless of their religion, ethnicity, colour, or countries in order to confront the arrogant ones whatever their religious and national affiliations might be.”

Commenting on how it envisaged its relations with India, Hizbollah, which has now emerged as a highly influential player in the Lebanese political establishment, said: “[It is] our desire to consolidate dialogue and friendship with the Indian people of various groups in order to uphold freedom of mankind and confront the forces of arrogance, takfir, and Zionism, because these forces cooperate and stand together to reap the fruits of their common work. Indeed, they have the same approaches and methods.”

The 9/11 analogy


There has been considerable comment on the negative implications of characterising the Mumbai attacks as India’s 9/11. Al Hayat points out that repeated references to 9/11 in the wake of the Mumbai attacks only bring back “the atmosphere of the U.S. 9/11.”

The website of Iran’s state-run Islamic Republic New Agency (IRNA) also posted an article on December 5, stressing that the Americans were going to great lengths to connect the group which perpetrated the 9/11 attacks with terrorists who struck in Mumbai. It cited the visit by U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to New Delhi, where she reportedly said those who attacked India’s commercial capital and those blamed for the 2001 terror attacks in New York and Washington “move in the same circles.”

IRNA added: “If there is a connection between the Mumbai attacks and those of September 11 it is to be found in the American response. Seven months after the planes flew into the World Trade Center and Pentagon, Rice described those tragic events as ‘an enormous opportunity’ to ‘create a new balance of power.’ Washington now sees a similar opportunity arising from the carnage in India to pursue its interests in South Asia.”

Sympathy for Pakistan


The events that followed the Mumbai attacks have generated sympathy for Pakistan in West Asia. An editorial in Saudi Arabia’s daily Al Madina said: “Terrorism also threatens Pakistan’s very existence, and directly or indirectly harms its sovereignty over its territory, every time the U.S. attacks what Washington claims is a ‘terrorist’ target within Pakistan. [In the aftermath of the Mumbai attacks], India is furious while Pakistan, already in an extremely complex economic predicament, definitely needs no more crises to add to its existing ones.”

An editorial in the Saudi daily Al-Jazirah titled “A War Is Imminent” blamed the policies adopted by the U.S. in Afghanistan as the deeper cause of the current tensions in South Asia. “The terrorist attacks in Mumbai were extremely serious — in terms of their ‘quality,’ in hitting a number of targets [simultaneously], and in the [large] number of victims [they claimed]. But worst of all, they gave rise to serious political and military tension between India and Pakistan, which may lead to a war. Such a war would be a war between two nuclear powers whose security has been fundamentally undermined by the U.S. warfare in Afghanistan …”

The Iranian leadership was the first to imply that the Pakistani state was not involved in the Mumbai attacks. On December 2, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told state television IRIB that the “savage terrorist attacks which killed so many innocent people were staged by [elements] from outside the region as regional people would never do such a thing.”

The Mumbai attacks challenge the Indian state on not only how it manages domestic security but also how it frames external polices. It remains to be seen whether New Delhi will follow an independent approach by forging closer ties with neighbours on a common politico-security platform or get itself entrapped as a junior partner in an alliance with extra-regional players pursuing their geo-strategic agenda in the region.


sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10025
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby sum » 17 Dec 2008 11:27

And we keep bending over backwards to support these nutjobs? :roll: :roll:

pradeepe
BRFite
Posts: 741
Joined: 27 Aug 2006 20:46
Location: Our culture is different and we cannot live together - who said that?

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby pradeepe » 17 Dec 2008 11:59

West Asia? Thats a new one :rotfl:

How wonderful..must be our long lost cousins.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4449
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby putnanja » 17 Dec 2008 12:16

Mumbai’s Butcher and human rights

Mumbai’s Butcher and human rights

Kanchan Gupta

Now that the din of national outrage over the death and destruction in Mumbai, caused by 10 Pakistani fidayeen of whom one has missed the bus to jannat and thus left 72 gossamer-clad, kohl-eyed houris distraught at being deprived of the privilege of leading him through the pearly gates to the limitless pleasures that lie beyond, human rights activists and their cohorts in media have begun to crawl out of the holes in which they have been hiding since November 26. For the past couple of days, they have been crowding the studios of 24x7 news channels and airing their views dripping with compassion for Ajmal Amir Kasab, also known as, and justifiably so, ‘The Butcher of Mumbai’.

Displaying utter contempt for the national mood and flaunting their perverse notion of what constitutes justice, they have started demanding that Kasab’s ‘human rights’ should be protected. There is no evidence as yet to suggest that the ‘human rights’ of this terrorist are being trampelled upon by an uncaring, cruel state, unless we are to believe that his detention at an undisclosed safe house, in a room with a high ceiling to ensure that he cannot commit suicide, where he is being served wholesome hot meals, amounts to a gross violation of his ‘human rights’.

Nevertheless, by way of ample precaution, the New York-based Human Rights Watch, which has been honoured with this year’s UN Human Rights Prize, has lent its shrill voice to the clamour of the human rights activists. In a statement issued on December 3, while offering gratuitous advice to the Government of India on how to manage its affairs, Human Rights Watch has demanded that investigators should “respect human rights”. As a commentator in The Jerusalem Post has pointed out, “The HRW’s website lists 38 reports attacking counter-terrorism efforts around the globe but only three on the brutal impact of terrorism on civilians”.

Meanwhile, a spurious debate has been initiated by publicity-seeking human rights activists and lawyers, egged on by activist-anchors whose hearts beat for Kasab and his breed and who make a fetish of their appalling ignorance, on whether he should be provided with legal assistance, presumably to prove his innocence in the courts of law. There are aspects to the debate that merit comment.

Kasab will no doubt be tried as per the law of the land after charges have been framed against him. Since we are a law-abiding democracy, the judicial process will not be short-circuited. It is also unlikely that the judges who hear the case will suspend their adherence to the principle, no matter how flawed and disingenuous it may be, that every accused person must be presumed to be innocent until proven guilty.

It is at once a tribute to our criminal justice system and a blot on our collective conscience that a Pakistani who slaughtered citizens of India and has since expressed neither remorse nor regret will appear in court as an ‘innocent’; the state shall have to prove that he is actually guilty of the crime which everybody knows he has committed in full view of innumerable witnesses. But since India is not Saudi Arabia, he will escape decapitation in a public square.

As with other terrorists, for instance, Mohammed Afzal Guru who masterminded the fidayeen attack on Parliament House on December 13, 2001, he will be represented by a lawyer. Which brings us to the question: Whose responsibility is it to ensure that he gets adequate and appropriate legal assistance? Since he is a Pakistani citizen, the responsibility devolves upon the Government of Pakistan. If Islamabad turns away its face, Ms Nandita Haksar and Ms Teesta Setalvad will have the opportunity to defend yet another terrorist. There are other lawyers who are willing to represent Kasab in court despite bar association resolutions preventing them from doing so. Some of them, including Mr Trideep Pais, are on record offering their services because they believe everybody has the right to legal representation and that a lawyer should not be constrained by either the nature or the enormity of the crime his or her client is accused of.

That’s a lofty principle and if Kasab’s defenders truly believe in it, they should not be fearful of social ostracism or of being shamed and shunned by their peer group. If it is their right to plead that Kasab is not guilty of the crime of mass murder, or that he does not deserve to be put on the next bus to jannat to keep his date with 72 gossamer-clad, kohl-eyed houris, then citizens have the right to spit on their faces. It is absurd to expect people will felicitate the defenders of Kasab.

There is, however, the other view, which cannot be entirely overlooked in our zeal to uphold the rule of law as we understand it. Does Kasab really qualify to be tried within the matrix of our criminal justice system? As a foreign national, he cannot demand the same privileges that are accorded to India’s citizens and are guaranteed by India’s Constitution. More importantly, he is not a commonplace offender, but an alien ‘unlawful combatant’. During a recent television debate, former Solicitor-General Harish Salve described Kasab as a foreign citizen and an ‘unlawful combatant’ who waged war against the Union of India; since he targeted unarmed civilians, he should be treated as a ‘war criminal’.

The term ‘unlawful combatant’, contrary to popular belief, was not coined after 9/11 to justify the detention of suspected jihadis at the American facility in Guantánamo Bay. It has been in use for a long time and essentially refers to ‘non-state actors’ who wage war against a state. Given the illegality of their action, it is not surprising that neither the Hague nor the Geneva Conventions should refer to ‘unlawful combatants’. Hence, it is ridiculous to invoke the Geneva Conventions, as is being done by those who hope to see Kasab walk free.

So, what do we do in this situation? How should we classify Kasab and his crime? Is he just an alleged murderer? Or is he an alleged terrorist? Or, is he an ‘unlawful combatant’ who should be tried by a military tribunal? And what will be Kasab’s response when his trial begins?

When Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind behind 9/11, and his four co-defendants were presented before the Military Commission at Guantánamo Bay, they said that they wanted to plead guilty, but only if it served their desired purpose. “If we plead guilty, can we still be sentenced to death?” Khalid Sheikh Mohammed asked the Military Commission judge responsible for trying the men. The question stumped him and others representing the US Administration: They didn’t know how to respond.

What if Kasab were to tell the judge before whom he is presented, with or without legal assistance, “If I plead guilty, can I still be sentenced to death?”

kobe
BRFite
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 14:26
Location: Tang Bohu' Village, Suzhou

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby kobe » 17 Dec 2008 13:14

ramana wrote:Kobe what do you print it on? Is it a standard Avery sticky page? We can even have fundraiser for those bumper stickers.


ramana,

i'd have a company specializing in printers and labels make it,
we just send them a design / logo and they can print whatever we want

let me know if you are interested, i can send some sample
design for critique and approval and then make about 500
bumper stickers (we can also send them to india / uk wherever
jingoes might want to use them), based on jingo-intetest we can always print more,

and if someone organizes a fund-raiser, the money can go to some good cause. (e.g. for purchasing a dog for kerala CM)

Prabu
BRFite
Posts: 422
Joined: 22 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: In the middle of a Desert

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Prabu » 17 Dec 2008 15:13

There wsa news in RAJ NEWS (Tamil) channel today, that Pakistan has signed a defence agreement with China on 15th December 2008, in a hurried manner at the back drop of heightening tension between India and pakistan. Senior Paki defence personnel are are also discussing with chinese counter parts about the possible defence supplies to help paki's !

Any details about thte agrement ?? I can not see any news in regular new papaers !?

Thanks,

PRABU

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20623
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Philip » 17 Dec 2008 15:19

From a recent conversation with a foreign Indo-Pak expert,who has hard access to the entire Paki establishment ,discussions covering a wide range of topics,Indo-Pak relations,Kashmir,the Middle East,US wars in Iraq,Afghanistan,global Islamist terrorism/Al Q,etc.The following points on which there was broad agreement were as follows.

1.The ordinary citizen in both Pak and India want to live in peace with each other.Bollywood,cricket and a common cultural heritage binds us together in a love-hate relationship.

2.Outside /external forces have since independence been trying to keep both countries at loggerheads or even in conflict.Thus the nations of Indian sub-continent (SAARC today) are prevented from exercising their influence in global affairs.The US's military adventurism in the region is a millstone round both nation's necks,especially Pak.,and for which there appears to be no early solution as long as the anti-Afghan forces operating out of the border areas supposedly under Paki control are allowed to operate without fear of punishment.

3.The Kashmir issue,the most intractable is being gradually defused through the relaxation of the LOC,holding of regular elections in the state and development aid.However,there are certain Kashmiri groups who are being secretly supported by western entities/agencies in continuing to demand a separate independent state, which if brought into being would allow a permanent foreign presence in the region (aimed primarily against China through Tibet),inimical to both India and Pak.India however had to keep up the momentum in defusing J&K and not waste the hard work gone before.The GOI should not bother about peripheral events like terror attacks around the country,but remain focussed on J&K affairs without sacrificing the security of the state.

4.Pakistan had become the epicentre of global Islamist terror.The beginning was Gen.Zia's Islamisation of the Pak state,totally contrary to Jinnah's vision.In this,he was supported by the west/US to the hilt,as they wanted to bring down the USSR by uprisings in the Islamic republics of the Soviet Union.Afghanistan was the breeding ground for events today and the Taliban a creation of Pak,Saudi Arabia and the CIA.The Iran-Iraq war where the US was Saddam's chief benefactor was also a part of history that reverberates in the subcontinent today.Saddam was paid billions for using chemical warfare against the Kurds,allegedly paid off by Rumsfeld (pictures exist) twice for gassing first the Kurds and then the Iranians.Unfortunately,Islamist blowback peaked with 9/11 and Osama's revenge.Here,Al Q had the support of the Isalmists in Pak who are to be found at every strata of the Paki establishment.

5.Gen.Musharraf represents the Paki military/ISI who are steeped in anti-India hatred.For the better part of its independence,Pakistan has been ruled by one military dictatorship after the other.These dictatorships remain in power by raising the bogey of India.Whenever there is an interlude of democracy,the elcted leaders of Pak are quickly compromised by some bout of deliberate miliitary adventurism leading to Indo-Pak military tension,derailing peace moves.Musharraf betrayed ABV/Sharif's bus diplomacy at Kargil and overthrew Sharif to save his own skin and that of the Paki military.The establishment took care of Benazir removing all shreds of evidence leaving no trails.

6.The US/NATO are in deep trouble in Afghanistan and will do their utmost to bring the Pak military establishment onto their side to fight the Taliban,compromising their principles in the bargain.There interests will come first as always.

7.Asked about the possibility (some time before 26/11) of the Pak military and the Indian armed forces working together towards establishing a regional securtity framework,which would significantly reduce tesnsions between both countries,the individual said that at the current time,though Zardari was all for a peaceful resolution of Indo-Pak problems,the elements in the military appratus made it unlikely.

In the aftermath of 26/11 ,these views will have to be updated,especially as a new US dispensation is about to take charge.How much flexibility it will allow the Pak military/ISI to continue operate against India is the moot question.Another round of attacks could be coordinated just before the elections,as it is now very evident that Zardari wears the skirt and Gen.Ar-e f**k Killany wears the uhiform and weilds the stick.In such circumstances,there is very little that India can do to stop this terror unless it decides to act decisively with Pak. on both diplomatic and military fronts

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16997
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rahul M » 17 Dec 2008 15:37

1.The ordinary citizen in both Pak and India want to live in peace with each other.Bollywood,cricket and a common cultural heritage binds us together in a love-hate relationship.

I have serious reservations with this assertion.

the pakistani 'ordinary' citizens wish no such thing. of course they will rather have an India that is demolished without a frontal confrontation with their country, one they know they can't win.
but that does not mean that the avg pakistani is averse to the use of force without *ANY* reservations if that forwards their cause (like bombings or killing civilians).

case in point : a) the candle light vigil news, as reported by Amber G.
b) the recent opinion poll that showed that overwhelming majority of respondents(bulk of whom were educated/affluent urban pakistanis) supported suicide bombings if the target was India.

a cursory scan of their media for any period of time exceeding a month is enough to convince people of what the 'ordinary' citizens think about relations with India.


shiv ji's work especially the parts on education is particularly well researched.

or is it that pakistan has no or few 'ordinary' citizens ? :wink:
after zia that may be certainly closer to the truth.

milindc
BRFite
Posts: 705
Joined: 11 Feb 2006 00:03

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby milindc » 17 Dec 2008 16:12

Pro-Terrorist Congress party's Union Cabinet Minister Antulay states that Shri Karkare was killed by someone other than Pakis. This is bloody Minority affairs minister........
Rajiv Shukla, Pro-Terrorist Congress party's spokesman defends Antulay and states that he might have his own reason...

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36409
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby SaiK » 17 Dec 2008 19:51

achit wrote:
SaiK wrote:
But in loving India I do not hate Pakistan. http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/16/stories ... 110900.htm

may be the answer to the larger context lies in the negation.


from the article
...I am convinced that the attacks are further evidence that the partitioning of India and Pakistan has proved a tragic mistake. It was prompted for laudable reasons — to protect Muslims from Hindu dominance — but it caused the death of millions in the greatest migration in human history, and 60 years on what has it achieved? Two nations — three including Bangladesh, which gained independence in 1971 — whose leaders have shed blood and spent billions fighting each other while their people have starved and suffered....


well he think this was laudable


I liked this answer to the Hindu paper.>>>>>
If the reason that prompted Partition was “laudable,” India would not be home to the world’s second largest Muslim population.

The tragedy of Partition was thrust on the subcontinent by the power-hungry Muslim leadership. The fatal mistake cannot be undone.

Col. C.V. Venugopalan (retd.),

Palakkad

* * *


Perhaps a thread like ---"Why Pakis hate India? and Why Indian Muslims don't hate Pakis" might give us some more strategic depth into how we may help strategize for our future ops.
Last edited by SaiK on 17 Dec 2008 19:56, edited 1 time in total.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16548
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby NRao » 17 Dec 2008 19:53

3.The Kashmir issue,the most intractable is being gradually defused through the relaxation of the LOC,holding of regular elections in the state and development aid.However,there are certain Kashmiri groups who are being secretly supported by western entities/agencies in continuing to demand a separate independent state, which if brought into being would allow a permanent foreign presence in the region (aimed primarily against China through Tibet),inimical to both India and Pak.India however had to keep up the momentum in defusing J&K and not waste the hard work gone before.The GOI should not bother about peripheral events like terror attacks around the country,but remain focussed on J&K affairs without sacrificing the security of the state.


Among ALL those, as weak as they are, I find this to be the most stupid one.

Is India in 2009 really THAT weak?

But then India has lived with IDEs for eons, so, who knows, perhaps India can live with a foreign force in Kashmir for another eon.

Looks like India and Indians want to sit on the side lines and watch the Great Game being played in their own country!!

Get in and play it.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16548
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby NRao » 17 Dec 2008 19:56

6.The US/NATO are in deep trouble in Afghanistan and will do their utmost to bring the Pak military establishment onto their side to fight the Taliban,compromising their principles in the bargain.There interests will come first as always.


The MOST laughable.

(Did someone forget AQ?)

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54275
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby ramana » 17 Dec 2008 20:03

NRao its poor perfomance to piss on information and feedback. Try to read between the lines and craft strategy.

GOI understands what the foreign interlocutor is saying. And hence the reluctance to provide legitimacy for the TSPA by massing troops. It has to be tackled in other ways and at same time keep out the US form the area.

Go back and read SB Chavan's speech in Lok Sabha after the Mumbai blasts and the ABV speech in Tajikistan in 2003.

Why do you think the US is revealing and confirming all that GOI has been saying all these years? Its to goad the UPA to take some action and get embroiled and provide a role for US. It has to be done in an Indian way.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36409
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby SaiK » 17 Dec 2008 20:12

one strategic big lesson we have to learn to put it in practice: - Its highly required to concentrate our resources, such that pakistan is engaged in fighting terror in its soil. afghanistan ops are important for us to keep them on the hooks there.

arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby arun » 17 Dec 2008 20:16

US on Pakistan’s disinclination to close down the Pakistan based Islamic terrorist outfit responcible for the Mumbai terrorist attack, Jamaat-ul-Dawa :

Secretary Condoleezza Rice
Remarks Following the UN Security Council Meeting on the Situation in Somalia
New York City, New York
December 16, 2008 ………

QUESTION: Following up on your answer, you said the U.S. has been sure that UN sanctions, et cetera, are followed. Is Pakistan following the UN Security Council’s ban on the Jamaat? The Foreign Minister just said this weekend that charitable organizations of the Jamaat-ul-Dawa will not be closed down. Is this a violation of international cooperation?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, the – Pakistan is going to have to untangle a difficult circumstance with the Jamaat-ul-Dawa – they are – because I understand that there are so-called charitable activities. But we learned – the United States learned the hard way that sometimes these are too intertwined with organizations that have terrorist ties and that have just been designated here. And so we will be pressing all member-states to adhere completely and to the letter of the designations that the United Nations has taken. And because I know the Pakistani Government to be a government that wants to deal in good faith with the world – it’s a new civilian government that is a legitimate government that wants very much to be respected in international politics and, by the way, wants to deal with the terrorism problem that is itself having dire consequences in Pakistan – I expect that there will be great – will be cooperation. ………

US State Dept

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16548
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby NRao » 17 Dec 2008 20:23

ramana,

ALL this was very predictable and to a great extent avoidable too. Prevention would have avoided the very predictable "piss"ing, as you put it, along with the "goad the UPA".

I am not that concerned about internal politics, that exists everywhere, even in the form of "western entities/agencies", they always have. This existence is what makes them very predictable. The issue then becomes what is the cost associated with either preventing something from hurting you or having to give up your position. What I am "piss"ing about is that these costs were totally avoidable.

What is the use of talking or discussing about Great Game when there is no strategy to counter such a game or ensure that the game goes in your favor?

Chellaram
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 25
Joined: 21 May 2007 18:42
Location: Houston, Tx

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Chellaram » 17 Dec 2008 21:14

Rahul M wrote:the pakistani 'ordinary' citizens wish no such thing. of course they will rather have an India that is demolished without a frontal confrontation with their country, one they know they can't win.
but that does not mean that the avg pakistani is averse to the use of force without *ANY* reservations if that forwards their cause (like bombings or killing civilians).

case in point : a) the candle light vigil news, as reported by Amber G.
b) the recent opinion poll that showed that overwhelming majority of respondents(bulk of whom were educated/affluent urban pakistanis) supported suicide bombings if the target was India.


for those that dont have it, heres the link to that story highlighting the number of people in Karachi supporting suicide bombings in India.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 008_pg12_1

nearly 50 percent of all those surveyed in Karachi believed that suicide bombing was acceptable in Palestine, Kashmir and Lebanon.


is there another article highlighting the views of the rest of Pakistan?

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36409
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby SaiK » 17 Dec 2008 22:06

absolutely believable. perhaps good candidates for self destruction of their state-less-ness.

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Arun_S » 17 Dec 2008 22:48

ramana wrote:NRao its poor perfomance to piss on information and feedback. Try to read between the lines and craft strategy.

GOI understands what the foreign interlocutor is saying. And hence the reluctance to provide legitimacy for the TSPA by massing troops. It has to be tackled in other ways and at same time keep out the US form the area.

Go back and read SB Chavan's speech in Lok Sabha after the Mumbai blasts and the ABV speech in Tajikistan in 2003.

Why do you think the US is revealing and confirming all that GOI has been saying all these years? Its to goad the UPA to take some action and get embroiled and provide a role for US. It has to be done in an Indian way.

Ramana I have been mulling on it for many days now. The mandarins in South and North Block are indeed doing their job darn well in this inning. Indian Government is fighting this grand chess game quite well. Earlier Kargil was a masterful trap (by the loving massa, and the nuclear flash point flavor of the day) and Indian strategists and the government of the day (NDA) saved the nation and won victory on more fronts than just immediate war. Similarly the strategists and government of today (UPA) is doing a good job in carefully walking this minefield and ensure India does not fall for this goading and knee jerk urge. I can see that it is orchestrated in undercutting TSPArmy and continue the TSP vacuum implosion, while checking the firangi role further growing into Indian sub-continent.

Thanks for pointing it out.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16997
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rahul M » 17 Dec 2008 22:50

chellaram, thanks a lot.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22284
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby chetak » 17 Dec 2008 23:11

Rahul M wrote:
1.The ordinary citizen in both Pak and India want to live in peace with each other.Bollywood,cricket and a common cultural heritage binds us together in a love-hate relationship.

I have serious reservations with this assertion.

the pakistani 'ordinary' citizens wish no such thing. of course they will rather have an India that is demolished without a frontal confrontation with their country, one they know they can't win.
but that does not mean that the avg pakistani is averse to the use of force without *ANY* reservations if that forwards their cause (like bombings or killing civilians).

case in point : a) the candle light vigil news, as reported by Amber G.
b) the recent opinion poll that showed that overwhelming majority of respondents(bulk of whom were educated/affluent urban pakistanis) supported suicide bombings if the target was India.

a cursory scan of their media for any period of time exceeding a month is enough to convince people of what the 'ordinary' citizens think about relations with India.


shiv ji's work especially the parts on education is particularly well researched.

or is it that pakistan has no or few 'ordinary' citizens ? :wink:
after zia that may be certainly closer to the truth.



I agree with Rahulji. Nothing like an ordinary pakistani.

More like ornery
like in ugly and unpleasant in disposition or temper: No one can get along with my ornery cousin.

The pakis have a deep seated visceral hatred of India and Indians.
Shia, sunni, whatever. The hatred is ingrained from childhood. Its a combination of national jealousy, dawning realization of cultural inferiority and the humiliating acknowledgment of failure.
We are the ones behaving like kindergarten kids, always keen to excuse, accommodate and "understand" them.
This has been further complicated by a few India hating Indian panjabis who always take their side regardless, dhimmis like ik gujral, kuldip nayyar et al.
The latent rage, deep prejudices and pseudo intellectual and subtle anti India diatribe that such worthies carry in their discourses hurts us universally because they are seen as insiders.
Where is the factual evidence of people to people contacts? A lot of crap about same blood, same people etc etc.
Its the same people writing the same old crap every time.
Shame on us for being fooled over and over again.

surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1421
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby surinder » 18 Dec 2008 02:57

Need a favor: I have been curious to hear myself the accents of the attackers. I have read here that the accent was punjabi; I am curious to check it out myself. I remember seeing a link somewhere to a video or something a day or two ago. I cannot find it now. I did all sorts of searches, without success. Could someone point out the post (or give me the link).

Thanks.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Victor » 18 Dec 2008 06:54

Link to pakiturd interview on youtube.

Paul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3565
Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Paul » 18 Dec 2008 07:02

Arun_S wrote:
ramana wrote:NRao its poor perfomance to piss on information and feedback. Try to read between the lines and craft strategy.

GOI understands what the foreign interlocutor is saying. And hence the reluctance to provide legitimacy for the TSPA by massing troops. It has to be tackled in other ways and at same time keep out the US form the area.

Go back and read SB Chavan's speech in Lok Sabha after the Mumbai blasts and the ABV speech in Tajikistan in 2003.

Why do you think the US is revealing and confirming all that GOI has been saying all these years? Its to goad the UPA to take some action and get embroiled and provide a role for US. It has to be done in an Indian way.

Ramana I have been mulling on it for many days now. The mandarins in South and North Block are indeed doing their job darn well in this inning. Indian Government is fighting this grand chess game quite well. Earlier Kargil was a masterful trap (by the loving massa, and the nuclear flash point flavor of the day) and Indian strategists and the government of the day (NDA) saved the nation and won victory on more fronts than just immediate war. Similarly the strategists and government of today (UPA) is doing a good job in carefully walking this minefield and ensure India does not fall for this goading and knee jerk urge. I can see that it is orchestrated in undercutting TSPArmy and continue the TSP vacuum implosion, while checking the firangi role further growing into Indian sub-continent.

Thanks for pointing it out.


I would tend to agree.....solution to Pakistan will happen when the Nawaz Sharifs, rump sections of PA, the MQM, Baloch, Seraiki, Pakhtun and Sindhi nationalists come to an agreement with GOI on rooting out the Pakiban menace. The recent actions of the GOI give credence to this thinking.

When the Pakiban cross the Indus, even the Ejaz Haiders and Imran Khans will be on the next flight to Mumbai. I believe sections of the RAPEs in Pakistan are well aware of this dilemma.

MurthyB
BRFite
Posts: 704
Joined: 18 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: "Visa Officer", Indian Consulate #13,451, Khost Province, Afghanistan

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby MurthyB » 18 Dec 2008 07:10

I don't know if the gurus here have debated this point here, but I am confused about something. It seems, on the surface, that the capture of one terrorist was not part of their plan. The resulting case against Pakistan has been made that much stronger by this pig's capture now. And yet, theories that the attack was to goad India into a military posture against the pukes so that they could relieve themselves from being pimped out on the durand line seem to be the common thinking. How could that be? If this pig had also gone to hell with the others, the shrill voices that even now blame India for the attack would have been ten times louder, and there would have been no credible case against the pukes at all, just like in the half-a-dozen other attacks that have happened this year alone. It would have been written off as yet another 'revenge' for babri godhra et al. So really, this attack, like all the others, has been an attempt to incite a pogrom against IMs? In that they have miserably failed it appears.

anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8281
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby anupmisra » 18 Dec 2008 07:22

Victor wrote:Link to pakiturd interview on youtube.


The low life sounds more like a kashmiri or pashtun with a limited knowledge of urdu. This is not the accent of a punjabi. My opinion, of course.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21144
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Prem » 18 Dec 2008 07:32

anupmisra wrote:
Victor wrote:Link to pakiturd interview on youtube.


The low life sounds more like a kashmiri or pashtun with a limited knowledge of urdu. This is not the accent of a punjabi. My opinion, of course.


Mirpuris are mixed breed . There genetic make up got updated many time since 47.

enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby enqyoob » 18 Dec 2008 08:14

So really, this attack, like all the others, has been an attempt to incite a pogrom against IMs? In that they have miserably failed it appears.


Accurate IMO. There are several of the usual ppl extremely disappointed that Godhra-2 did not pay off. Very poor ROI. But the fault for this nonsense continuing must again be laid at the door of the GOI, because of the extremely poor followup of previous atrocities, and the lack of jhapads on the Pakis for the long list. Probably the TIME and Arundhoti articles were written in anticipation.

Rangudu
BRFite
Posts: 1751
Joined: 03 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rangudu » 18 Dec 2008 08:19

As to motives etc., here's what RAND Corp's Farzana Ali said recently at a conference on the attacks. She quoted from a "senior level jihadi source" within TSP.

According to two senior sources within jihadi outfits and as many in the intelligence agencies, the recent terror attacks in different parts of Mumbai…were masterminded by Pakistani intelligence agency ISI using the defunct Lashkar-e-Taiba [LT] which is presently working under the guise of a relief/charity agency – Jamatud Dawa – all over Pakistan… Deccan Mujahideen is a pseudo name of Lashkar-e-Taiba.

The latter cannot assume the responsibility of the attacks - like past - due to the fact that Pakistan and its jihadi outfits are being watched by the US and its allies. The Lashkar leaders are not accepting the responsibility at official level but they are taking pride and claiming it among their trusted people. There is a strong sense of jubilation among the ranks and files of Lashkar-e-Taiba. They have offered nawafil i shukrana (special prayers to thank God) for successfully carrying out the attacks. They have distributed boxes of sweet meats among their workers to celebrate the victory. They believe that it will pave the way for the freedom of Kashmir."


Return to “Terrorism Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest