Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

arun
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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby arun » 14 Dec 2008 19:06

X Post.

Given the deep rooted and institutionalised support for Islamic Terrorism in Pakistan, I am not surprised that Muridke remains open :

Times Online
December 14, 2008

Blacklist terror charity still open in Pakistan

The Markaz-e-Taiba complex of the Jamaat-ud-Dawa organisation remains open in Muridke, Pakistan, despite being terror blacklisted by UN

Jeremy Page, in Muridke, Pakistan

The main complex of Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD), the Pakistani charity linked to last month's attack on Mumbai, is still open four days after the U.N. Security Council placed the group on a terrorist list, the Times has learned.

Pakistani officials say they ordered the closure of JuD's facilities on Thursday under pressure from India and the United States, which see it is a front for Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) – the militant group blamed for the Mumbai attack.

But when The Times visited the Markaz-e-Taiba complex in the town of Muridke, 30 miles from the eastern city of Lahore, this afternoon it was functioning as normal and there was no sign of any police presence. ...............

Local officials contacted by The Times declined to comment on why the complex, next to the Grand Trunk road between Lahore and Islamabad, had not been closed.

Times Online

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Dmurphy » 14 Dec 2008 19:29

MJ Akbar takes on BBC dogs'The BBC cannot see the difference between a criminal and a terrorist'

December 14, 2008 18:10 IST
Last Updated: December 14, 2008 18:50 IST
The British Broadcasting Corporation, a state-sponsored but independently run, media organization has attracted sharp criticism for having "double-standards" in its coverage of the Mumbai terror attacks. Most times the BBC reporters referred to the terrorists who attacked Mumbai as "gunmen" or "militants".
Well-known thinker and editor-in-chief of Covert magazine, MJ Akbar has taken up the issue seriously. Since November 27, Akbar has refused to appear on BBC to speak about the Mumbai attacks.

Many British politicians have also taken up the issue with the BBC management. Steve Pound,a British Parliamentarian who represents North Ealing, has issued a strong statement against BBC's biased policy by saying that it was "the worst sort of mealy-mouthed posturing."

Akbar, had gone a step ahead and has written a strongly-worded e-mail to Richard Porter, head of Content, BBC World News. On December 6, Akbar wrote to Porter that, "I just want to let you know that after decades of friendship and association with the BBC, I refused to give an interview to the BBC over the terrorist outrage in Mumbai. The reason is simple: I am appalled, astonished, livid at your inability to describe the events in Mumbai as the work of terrorists. You have called them 'gunmen' as if they were hired security guards on a night out."

Akbar further argued that, "When Britain finds a group of men plotting in a home laboratory your government has no hesitation in creating an international storm, and the BBC has no hesitation in calling them terrorists. When nearly two hundred Indian lives are lost, you cannot find a word in your dictionary more persuasive than 'gunmen'.

Akbar articulated many Indian fans of the BBC when he said," You are not only pathetic, but you have become utterly biased in your reporting. Since we in India believe in freedom of the press, we can do no more than protest, but let me tell you that your credibility, created over long years by fearless and independent journalists like Mark Tully (I am privileged to describe him as a friend), is in tatters and those tatters will not be patched as long as biased non-journalists like you and your superiors are in charge of decisions. Shame on you and your kind."

Akbar's e-mail was not ignored by BBC. A courteous and very British response did arrive in his mailbox on December 11. Porter had argued that, "The guidelines we issue to staff are very clear-we do not ban the use of the word terrorist, but our preference is to use an alternative form of words. There is a judgement inherent in the use of the word, which is not there when we are more precise with our language. "Gunman", or "killer", or "bomber", is an accurate description which does not come with any form of judgement. However, the word is not banned, and is frequently used on our output-usually when attributed to people. I heard it being used on numerous occasions during our coverage from Mumbai." BBC staffers have guidelines which are a public document

Without going into specifics Porter claimed, "There is no inconsistency in the way the BBC has reported the attacks in Mumbai, compared to what we have done with events in the UK. If we are to be serious about upholding our policy, then we cannot make a distinction between events in any country."

In India most critics have pointed out that how BBC termed the July 7, 2005 attackers in London as "terrorists" without hesitation. While in case of Mumbai they used "gunmen" and at odd places "suspected terrorist."

However, Porter, journalist of 27 years standing, argues, "This policy is the opposite of bias...but it is a difficult one to uphold and is the subject of many discussions within BBC headquarters. Clearly we had the discussion once again in the wake of the Mumbai attacks--and comments like yours are taken very seriously by my editorial colleagues."

In short, the BBC wants its viewers and readers to use their own brains. Porter wrote, ' I believe those audiences can make their own mind up about the people who carried out the attacks in Mumbai and don't need us to give them any label to reach that judgement."

Obviously, Akbar has not accepted these arguments. After thanking "courteousness" of Porter's e-mail to him Akbar asked, " But your response does not answer my question: how does the BBC find it easy to define a terrorist when trains and buses in London are attacked, but must slide towards "non-judgmental" definitions when there is a blatant and murderous display of terrorism in Mumbai? Are you serious when you say that you leave it to audiences to make up their own minds? Then why did you not leave it to audiences to make up their own minds after 9/11? "

Akbar, wrote, "I assume the makers of BBC policies, such as they are, understand English. There is a clear distinction between gunmen and terrorists. Criminals use guns, and can be called gunmen; criminals use guns in the service of crime. Terrorists use guns and worse in the random killing of innocents in pursuit of a political agenda or personal agenda. The killers who came to Taj and Oberoi and the Chatrapati Shivaji railway station and a home where Jewish people lived, did not come to steal art, or railway property or money. They came with the declared purpose of murder and mayhem."

When Akbar was in London, the tabloids were full of headlines about young people being knifed. Akbar says , " that was crime committed by "knifemen". Al Capone was a "gunman" and I am sure the East End of your city once used to produce "gunmen" who committed crimes.

Akbar told Porter, " It is a shame that the BBC cannot see the difference between a criminal and a terrorist, and chooses in fact to protect the terrorist by giving him the camouflage of a criminal. This is not a matter of semantics. Terrorists are always happy to fudge the definition."
Last edited by Dmurphy on 14 Dec 2008 20:09, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Gerard » 14 Dec 2008 19:35


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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby krishnan » 14 Dec 2008 19:44

Whats with this fetish for the word _gunman_.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Dmurphy » 14 Dec 2008 20:00

Somebody do something about that Burkha Dutt girl!

On 'We the People':
"We don't want to become a nation of war mongers",
"Cricket is a casualty",
"People to people contact is important"
and lots more...

And thank you Rahul, for that EDIT.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Shreeman » 14 Dec 2008 20:03

krishnan wrote:Whats with this fetish for the word _gunman_.


This is entirely intentional. I did an almost scientific study on the subject once. Bad things happening/being done to non-western countries have their own nomenclature. The worst example of this is use of nuclear weapons. The bombs used on Japan were not nuclear, they were atomic.
Find me one, a single mention, any place, in the mainstream media that uses the any other nomenclature. The US used atomic weapons on Japan to end the war. Nuclear weapons in Iran would be a tragedy. A VAST majority of US citizens believe America has never used its weapons. They have no idea what "atomic" weapons were or why they were used.

The same applies to natural disasters - hurricanes and typhoons and what not.

The same applies to terrorists. Its only a terrorist act if it happens in
Europe or US.

Indian media is bought over, or dumb enough to follow along. Most of the reporting for AP et al is happening from Bangalore but they are quite happy to tow whatever editorial crap is inserted in the reports.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby enqyoob » 14 Dec 2008 20:27

Whats with this fetish for the word _gunman_.


(Sigh!) Such e-gno-rants. Pls kindly visit the Khabar-e-Jehad Pingreji thread and you will be Enlightened by the news from the Pakistani Enlightened Nuclear Islamic State.

Let me just post the stanza immortalized in the book "Battlecry" by Leon Uris:
This is my rifle, this is my gun
This is for fighting, this is for fun


IOW, "gunman" is less obscene than "mijjile polisher", but not by much. I hope this settles this useless debate. As for the distinction between (a) "terrorist" and (b) "militant / gunman / activist / armed youth / Avenger of Babri Masjid", this is easy.

"Terrorist" is someone who kills/terrorizes REAL PEOPLE, like British and Americans in Britain or America.

"Militant / gunman" etc is someone who kills/terrorizes Indians etc.

As for MJ Akbar getting his langoti in a knot about the terminology, does the Asia Times use the term "terrorist" when the victims are poor Indian commuters? Or only when they are guests at the Taj?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Jagan » 14 Dec 2008 20:43

HariC wrote:
Rahul M wrote:
Praveen wrote:Guys does anyone have a complete list(or link) of people killed in 26/11?

I think you may have already seen this.

http://www.twocircles.net/2008nov28/mum ... jured.html

there are some paki comments by anon readers in the comments section but I think the information is genuine.

ramana ji, you may want to have a look.

@Praveen, really appreciate your effort.


Many of the early lists are inaccurate - with names of injured included as well.

I have made a start at this link - with names, locations, remarks, and verifying links

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key= ... dE6HKulIYQ

BRF members are welcome to update the list - please remember to put a reference in the column to make sure we dont repeat the names etc.

Please download a copy to your hd in case some pakis decide to delete it. I will anyway be updating the list with more names as updations are made.


good work.

I noticed there are seven casualities for the Qualis attack. All sources I have read put it only as six.

Hemant Karkare IPS (JCP) ATS Qualis Ambush
Ashok Kamte IPS (ACP) ATS Qualis Ambush
Vijay Salaskar Inspector Qualis Ambush
Bapusaheb Durugade Sub Inspector, L.A.1, Naigaon Qualis Ambush
Balasaheb Bhosale ASI Qualis Ambush
Arun Chitte 38 Constable, Salaskar's Driver Qualis Ambush
Jaywant Patil Constable, Kamte's Bodyguard Qualis Ambush


Not all links are there for the above?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Jagan » 14 Dec 2008 20:47

Rahul M wrote:chetak, just another self-goal. sometimes wonder why we shouldn't have columbia policy for dealing with self-goal scorers.football enthusiasts would understand.

HariC, nicely done. btw, are you sure 263 is the actual figure ?


I think official figure is 163 (not counting the terrorists) So his list is about thirty to thirty five names short

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby vsudhir » 14 Dec 2008 21:08

As for MJ Akbar getting his langoti in a knot about the terminology, does the Asia Times use the term "terrorist" when the victims are poor Indian commuters? Or only when they are guests at the Taj?


you mean Asian Age, I presume?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby samuel.chandra » 14 Dec 2008 21:34

My friend from kerala saw a movie yesterday where the kargil conflict is shown. He said everything in the movie was accurate. The lead soldier mentions that he would not allow journalists to accomany them to the batte field because the journalist datta caused deaths of 4 soldiers by taking an photo with flash turned on. She was warned to not use it but she threatened to complain to the PM !! He thinks the journalist the soldier was talking about was Barkha Dutta. Now, its a movie... But this retard screwed something up in kargil. It keeps coming up.

Dmurphy wrote:Somebody do something about that Burkha Dutt girl!

On 'We the People':
"We don't want to become a nation of war mongers",
"Cricket is a casualty",
"People to people contact is important"
and lots more...

And thank you Rahul, for that EDIT.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby sum » 14 Dec 2008 22:08

Somebody do something about that Burkha Dutt girl!

On 'We the People':
"We don't want to become a nation of war mongers",
"Cricket is a casualty",
"People to people contact is important"
and lots more...

I wonder why such people don't get caught in some random acts conducted by the friends from across the border?

cant believe that we have such dhimmis in our land even after multiple assaults of all hues short of a JDAM/nuke attack( which might be coming very shortly!!!)...

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rahul M » 14 Dec 2008 22:14

vsudhir wrote:
As for MJ Akbar getting his langoti in a knot about the terminology, does the Asia Times use the term "terrorist" when the victims are poor Indian commuters? Or only when they are guests at the Taj?


you mean Asian Age, I presume?

IIRC MJA has been removed from asian age after he fell out with the UPA.

btw, I found this. http://www.mjakbar.org/

a mostly sensible article.
http://www.mjakbar.org/siegewithin.htm

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby JwalaMukhi » 14 Dec 2008 22:53

Dmurphy wrote:Somebody do something about that Burkha Dutt girl!



This is equal=equal onlee. Sadly this class of chaterati involves in bhai char of foolish order. Just as there can be non-state actors (NSA) there is large scale attempt to create non-state victims (NSV) except for some 20+ foreigners who belonged to a state. Helps in converting this act of war as simple crime and provides lifeline for the establishment in India to relegate the victims death to go in vain. Wonderful masterstroke in creating Orphans (disowning the victims). "Non-State Victims (NSV) ki Jai".

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby NRao » 14 Dec 2008 22:56

Rahul M wrote:
vsudhir wrote:
As for MJ Akbar getting his langoti in a knot about the terminology, does the Asia Times use the term "terrorist" when the victims are poor Indian commuters? Or only when they are guests at the Taj?


you mean Asian Age, I presume?

IIRC MJA has been removed from asian age after he fell out with the UPA.

btw, I found this. http://www.mjakbar.org/

a mostly sensible article.
http://www.mjakbar.org/siegewithin.htm


MJA started his own: http://covert.co.in/, along with a Seema Mustafa and plenty of others (
M.J. AKBAR
SEEMA MUSTAFA
KULDIP NAYAR
YASHWANT SINHA
ARIF M KHAN
SAEED NAQVI
SUHEL SETH
TCA RANGACHARI
BRAHMA CHELLANEY
J.S. RAJPUT
TEESTA SETALVAD
V BALACHANDRAN
JOGINDER SINGH
PRAYAAG AKBAR
AKHILESH MITHAL
FARZANA VERSEY
VEENU SANDAL)

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Muppalla » 14 Dec 2008 23:27

MJA is a closet Islamist. To understand him go to past until Babri destruction and his reasoning for opposing Nuke deal. I would not get fooled by shades of objectivity that these types show just to swing along with the public outcry. Wait until elections then you can see how suddenly he will turn to look like Rajdeep Sardesai.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby suneels » 15 Dec 2008 00:33

Hello
"The Guardian" published in UK has a larger readership than all the combined soothsayers in BR.
That is a fact.
No I don not smoke, and no I don't drink "tharra" either...
Please give a disseminated reply to Ms. Roy or just learn to live with the fact that we are just bedbugs in a humoungous world... Siraf Macchar.
If you wish to counter Ms. Roy, please learn to be erudite and publish facts to the world, 'cos "boss" we in BR are NOT the world!
Grow up and give a responsible rejoinder or live with this reality. Period.
Suneel
BTW: I've been hit thrice by Exocets in 1984 and am still alive and kicking, thank you...
Have you ever seen blood?
Stop ranting and come up with something ORIGINAL for a change.

Nesoj wrote:
suneels wrote:Hello

Please follow the link below to read a very good analysis on the recent terror attacks
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/12/mumbai-arundhati-roy

Best regards



'Very good analysis' ??? :eek: you've been smoking something, bro !!

This is nothing but 'jholawala' thrash, flavoured with special 'Indian secularism', specially prepared for goras' home consumption.

Can we deport her to Pakistan,as she seems to be a darling of the media there? She's better than Begum Sherry, in the disinformation campaign against India.

Pleeeeeease all -- no more Begum Roy articles.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rye » 15 Dec 2008 00:38

some idiot troll writes:
"The Guardian" published in UK has a larger readership than all the combined soothsayers in BR.


So what's written is less relevant than the quality/truthfullness of what's written? It would be easy to show that Arundhati Roy is a liar by dissecting that article. Her hyperbole may find fans in the UK, but an Indian would have to be a completely ignorant imbecile to pretend that ARoy writes stuff based on facts rather than emotion. All she is saying in that article is that "root causes" is very important (read "Hand over Cashmere to Bakistan") and that anyone who says otherwise is a fascist hindoootva murderer...uh huh..

Besides, the above defense of Dirty Roy is akin to the old "a pile of **** attracts a million flies so it must be really tasty" line of thinking.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby SaiK » 15 Dec 2008 00:46

ensure proper security setup in your browser.. i don't want you to be downloading something automatic..this site is attacked. http://www.leopoldcafe.com/

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Tilak » 15 Dec 2008 00:58

Jamaat transferred money out of most bank accounts: report
Last Updated: 22:41 IST(14/12/2008)

The Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD), which was labelled a terrorist organization by the UN Security Council for its links to the Mumbai carnage, has been able to transfer money out of most of its public bank accounts, negating the impact of the crackdown by Pakistan, a media report said on Sunday.

The dismantling of the Islamic charity linked to the Mumbai terror attacks is being seriously hampered by Pakistan's difficulties in tracking and seizing millions of dollars the group is believed to have stashed in bank accounts in Pakistan and abroad, the Wall Street Journal said on Sunday.

The public lead-up to the UN action gave the group ample time to transfer money out of most of its public bank accounts, an unidentified Pakistani finance ministry official was quoted by the US Journal as saying.

The official estimated that the group has moved hundreds of thousands of dollars, "maybe millions" in recent days.

"If we don't take away money, it can reopen any time," the official told the paper. "The money in Pakistan is hidden now. We won't find it."

Jamaat officials, who last week invited reporters to tour their complex outside Lahore and see some of their social-service programmes in action, have been unavailable to comment since Thursday's clampdown; many were either detained or being sought by Pakistani authorities, the Journal said.

As of Friday afternoon, the Journal said, at least one Jamaat-ud-Dawa account remained open for supporters to deposit donations, "at least for the moment."

People who wished could still deposit money at a Lahore branch of Bank Alfalah Ltd., a small lender part-owned by investors in Abu Dhabi, said the bank's operations officer, who, the paper said, would give his name only as Ali.

The Pakistani bank official said neither Jamaat nor the government had asked him to shut the account, which was in the name of Markaz Jamat-ud-Dawa. Markaz means the "headquarters of" in Urdu.

Other bank officials, including at its main office in Karachi, didn't respond to requests to comment, the Journal said.

Pakistan's central bank ordered all of Jamaat's assets frozen and accounts closed on Thursday, and Pakistani officials said they believed banks were complying with the order, but wouldn't elaborate or comment directly on the Alfalah account, it added. The account has been open since at least 2005, when fliers urged people to give money to it during the Muslim holiday of Eid-al-Adha.

In Pakistan, Europe and the US, Jamaat has asked donors since 2005 to deposit funds at Bank Alfalah in the name of a separate charity, Idara Khidmat-e-Khalq or IKK, which the US State Department identified in 2006 as an alias for Jamaat, the Journal quoted counter-terrorism officials.

US supporters of the Jamaat have been urged to wire dollars to IKK through the Bank of New York, according to a 2006 snapshot of the Web page captured by terrorism analyst Evan Kohlmann, an expert on Lashkar who frequently testifies in criminal cases involving the group, the paper said.

A Bank of New York spokesman said no donations were ever transmitted through the account. On the same page, donations in euros were solicited in Europe through a bank in Munich, the US daily said.

In an interview with the Wall Street Journal, Rehman Malik, Pakistan's interior minister, said investigations into Jamaat's assets and funding are now under way.

He said authorities are moving quickly to shut down offices and militant training camps, but added: "The government is not tracking everyone's accounts, frankly speaking."

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Vikram_S » 15 Dec 2008 01:04

suneels wrote:Hello
"The Guardian" published in UK has a larger readership than all the combined soothsayers in BR.
That is a fact.
No I don not smoke, and no I don't drink "tharra" either...
Please give a disseminated reply to Ms. Roy or just learn to live with the fact that we are just bedbugs in a humoungous world... Siraf Macchar.
If you wish to counter Ms. Roy, please learn to be erudite and publish facts to the world, 'cos "boss" we in BR are NOT the world!
Grow up and give a responsible rejoinder or live with this reality. Period.
Suneel
BTW: I've been hit thrice by Exocets in 1984 and am still alive and kicking, thank you...
Have you ever seen blood?
Stop ranting and come up with something ORIGINAL for a change.



suneels
you are the one who is ranting, pls cool down

nothing personal here but you posted an article by horrible hag - suzanne arundhati roy who is known on BR to be horrible creature and writes cent per cent treason

what reaction did you expect from us on her

the guardian is leftist newspaper which take pride in calling india names, obviously it will do so now using jaichands in india like suzanne arundhati roy

unfortunately even if you, i, we try to counter suzanne arundhati roy, guardian will edit your response or not even print it

that is way of things

just conserve your anger, know who indian enemies are and leave rest to time. if we manage our affair well one day these fellows will be busy begging us for survival

all of them are scumballs

today robert fisk another guardian person and pro-Arab fellow tried to blame mumbai on indians
such people are like cockroaches unfortunately in numbers and how many to bother about

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rahul M » 15 Dec 2008 01:14

Muppalla wrote:MJA is a closet Islamist. To understand him go to past until Babri destruction and his reasoning for opposing Nuke deal. I would not get fooled by shades of objectivity that these types show just to swing along with the public outcry. Wait until elections then you can see how suddenly he will turn to look like Rajdeep Sardesai.

muppalla, I am aware of MKA's leanings.
but that doesn't discount the fact that this particular article was mostly reasonable.
btw, I've read his writings for sometime now and he is certainly not as lowly or unethical as sardesai.
he does adhere to some sense of reason most of the time.

as an aside, we should always try to shift the fishbones and eat the fish, discarding nutritious fishes because they have fishbones is a wasteful habit we can ill afford. :wink:

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Tilak » 15 Dec 2008 01:16

suneels wrote:BTW: I've been hit thrice by Exocets in 1984 and am still alive and kicking, thank you...
Have you ever seen blood?


1984, you sure ??. Shiver me timbers! :rotfl: :rotfl:.
Last edited by Tilak on 15 Dec 2008 01:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby ramana » 15 Dec 2008 01:18

The big push it so some how blame the Mumbai terrorist attack on India as a self inflcicted wound. The reason is that the paki perfidy is very clear and gives India a legitmiate excuse to take them out. So the whole focus of these scalawags is to delegitimize Indian hurt and causus belli.

And suneel you have less than ten posts under your belt. What gives you the right to preach here? This forum has done a lot whether it meets your approval or not. So take it easy. What have you don't except to post a lying rant from a Deracinated Indian who is not even a real elite but a made up one. She is a lap dog for Western Deracination and doesn't deserve a rebuttal.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rahul M » 15 Dec 2008 01:21

arundhoti roy is right about one thing tho'.

she and her ilk certainly needs to look into the mirror for applauding and festering a vindictive political apparatus that tasked the security apparatus with non-issues like hindu terror.

not to mention denigrate a brave police officer like MC Sharma who gave his life trying to protect the people of this country, including scum like arundhoti roy.
they have played holi with the blood of mumbai, it's time to look at their ghastly selves in the mirror.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Prem » 15 Dec 2008 01:29

Rye wrote:some idiot troll writes:
"The Guardian" published in UK has a larger readership than all the combined soothsayers in BR.


So what's written is less relevant than the quality/truthfullness of what's written? It would be easy to show that Arundhati Roy is a liar by dissecting that article. Her hyperbole may find fans in the UK, but an Indian would have to be a completely ignorant imbecile to pretend that ARoy writes stuff based on facts rather than emotion. All she is saying in that article is that "root causes" is very important (read "Hand over Cashmere to Bakistan") and that anyone who says otherwise is a fascist hindoootva murderer...uh huh..

Besides, the above defense of Dirty Roy is akin to the old "a pile of **** attracts a million flies so it must be really tasty" line of thinking.


No, Millions but billions of flies eat pakistan, billions cannot be wrong so eating pakistan must be a good thing.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby samuel.chandra » 15 Dec 2008 01:45

Prem wrote:
No, Millions but billions of flies eat pakistan, billions cannot be wrong so eating pakistan must be a good thing.

:rotfl:

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rahul M » 15 Dec 2008 01:47

BTW: I've been hit thrice by Exocets in 1984 and am still alive and kicking, thank you...
Have you ever seen blood?

hey, no big deal. even captain haddock was hit in the face by an exocet ! :lol:

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby samuel.chandra » 15 Dec 2008 02:01

http://in.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/08mu ... st-act.htm

No time to dither: India must act

Lieutenant General Ashok Joshi (retired)

December 08, 2008
In the ends and means matrix of strategic thinking, the selection of attainable strategic objectives within the ambit of available means is perhaps the most important matter.
Discrediting of the Pakistan army [Images] offers itself as the most appropriate and important strategic objective for India at present. It happens to be the largest Islamist army in the world. No reference is intended either to Islam as religion, or to Pakistan as an Islamic republic in describing the Pakistan army as an Islamist army. An Islamist army promotes and executes the Pan-Islamist agenda.

The attack on Mumbai looks like the work of some 'Islamist' conglomerate led by the Pakistan army as the main promoter/entrepreneur. There has been an agreement about sharing of risks and distribution of spoils amongst the participants. Additional risks to the industrialised north that could have arisen solely from 26/11 must have been evaluated as minimal by the Islamist conglomerate. It need not fear special reprisals from the US on this account.

The US is precariously poised between two administrations. The US and its NATO allies are facing recession. The domestic issues of employment, recapitalisation, social security, and the like, dominate the thinking everywhere. No one wants to rock the boat. 'Let us cut out the overseas commitments to the extent that we can' seems to be the present mood. Historical evidence tells the US and its NATO allies that staying on in Afghanistan is a losing proposition.

'Outsourcing' of peacekeeping in Afghanistan as soon as the Al Qaeda [Images] threat to the industrialised north is contained or eradicated must appear to be a good proposition to the US. Skin and chunks of meat off India's back is unlikely to attract any additional reaction from the US and NATO allies against the Islamists. On the contrary, it is likely to yield the serendipitous outcome of the US becoming more dependent and beholden to the Pakistan army.

The creation of an Islamist Pakistan was not the idea of President Zia-ul Haq. Its progenitor was the late prime minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto who sold the idea of the 'Islamic' bomb in the hands of an Islamist Pakistan to many in the Muslim world. He created Islamist 'freedom fighters' to regain Kashmir, a dream he had nursed since early 1960s. He also became a 'military' dictator -- chief martial law administrator -- and firmly implanted the idea of authoritative regime in Pakistan as an extension of his personal agenda. Zia learnt fast, and decided that the Pakistan army will itself turn into an Islamist army and become the core of Pakistan. Ever since then Pakistan has been the cradle of Islamist terrorism.

He declared that the Pakistan army was his constituency and assiduously nursed it into an Islamist outfit. Zia also created other constituencies for the Pakistan army: The Inter Services Intelligence, the nuclear establishment, and the fundamentalists -- ideologues, and the 'jihadi' foot soldiers.

During the heyday of Pakistan-US cooperation against the 'infidel' Soviets, the US Central Intelligence Agency instructed the ISI and the Pakistan army in tradecraft. The ISI learnt everything about the raising of non-attributable funds, creation of irregular bands of jihadis, mounting operations by infiltration, successful ex-filtration after the operation in case of partial success, retaining credible deniability in the event of failure and so on.

US and Saudi funds poured into Pakistan and very soon, the common man identified the Islamist tone of the nation with its prosperity, and was grateful to the Pakistan army for its firm guiding hand.

In any case, the Pakistan army explained to them, that Islam did not particularly recommend democracy. The army, in this manner, has built a nation around itself. It has interwoven the Islamist ideology and the corresponding terror apparatus into the fabric of Pakistan. It has also succeeded in exporting this mindset to Bangladesh. Hopefully, now that Muslim scholars in India have authoritatively stated that Islam abhors terrorism, the people in Pakistan and Bangladesh may question the fundamentalist doctrine of the Pakistan army.

Very few armies in the world could have survived the ignominy of ceding Bangladesh, and almost 90,000 prisoners, after facing a series of defeats at the hands of the Indian defence forces in 1971. Not only that, it soon picked itself up and licked its wounds, it also imprisoned and hanged Bhutto, and thereafter created for Pakistan a unique and lasting power structure in which the army always has a dominating position with full veto powers.

It built upon two major initiatives of Bhutto, the atomic bomb, and the strategic relationship with China with an anti-India orientation. The US has been of active assistance to the Pakistan army in creating the power structure with the wherewithal and active assistance in return for its help in the 1980s. The US also chose to look in the other direction when it knew that Pakistan was developing an atomic device.

The US successfully resurrected Germany [Images] and Japan [Images] that it had reduced to dust with incessant bombing with financial and other assistance. The US, because of this experience firmly believes that it is good enough to follow immediate objectives in total disregard of the collateral damage and the long-term consequences of their actions. This attitude cost the US dearly. The rise and advent of the Pan-Islamist organisations in Afghanistan and Pakistan ultimately yielded '9/11' for the US. Some genies refuse to go into the bottle again. But the US continues with its short term interests.

No wonder therefore, that Condoleezza Rice [Images], the US Secretary of State, had scripted in advance her forthcoming statements during her visit to India on December 2, and subsequently in Pakistan on December 3. It looks as if she had to make no changes. She expressed solidarity with India in fighting terror, and added dollops of sympathy for India.

She was as indignant as the best of Indians and roundly condemned the terrorists; she also promised help. In Pakistan, she admired the attitude, and the effort made by the democratically-elected president of Pakistan in fighting terror. She explained that both are friends of the US and both must cooperate in their own interest.

Of course, India has the right of self defence. Has not the president-elect of the US (Barack Obama [Images]) said as much? It would be, however, very unwise for India to destabilise this entire region at this stage. Ultimately, the instability would hurt India. The conclusion is that India should gather all the evidence with great care, in which the Federal Bureau of Investigation would help, and then share it with Pakistan who is eagerly waiting to examine it with judicial impartiality. If that does not suffice, the matter could always be referred to the US and other NATO allies.

An unambiguous message by the chief of the Pakistan army to the US and its NATO allies started off this pantomime. He had informed them that he would have no choice except to withdraw 100,000 troops from Pakistan's western border with Afghanistan in order to deal with the situation likely to arise because of Indian actions in response to '26/11'. He made it very clear that it was a US problem and it had better solve it. Pakistan asked the US to make sure that India does not amass troops on its eastern border, carry out strikes on its soil, or indulge in some such activity.

In short, he asked the US to ensure that India desisted from using force or its threats against Pakistan on pain of leaving the Pakistan's western border to the tender mercies of the Taliban [Images] and other sundry players. Suddenly, Pakistan's problems, of its own making, turned into the worries of the US.


It is unrealistic of India to expect US help in fighting terrorism that can be linked to any of the terrorist-constituencies of the Pakistan Army by whatever acronyms they are described -- LeT (Lashkar-e-Tayiba), or IM (Indian Mujahideen [Images]), or DM (Deccan Mujahideen), to name the latest. The US may help India in piecing the local contacts of the Pakistani terrorists, so that it can mete out justice to them, or keep them under surveillance with a view to neutralising future attacks.

The US and the NATO allies may also benefit by being able to connect other dots elsewhere, say in Israel, the UK, or Europe with the fresh leads gathered in India. Beyond, India must take care of itself. The proposed US strategic partnership with India aims at events and happenings that are on distant horizon at present.

The proposal that India should present to Pakistan the evidence, left behind by the perpetrators of '26/11', for its evaluation and acceptance is not meaningful. It amounts to saying that the perpetrators have to be satisfied by the evidence that the victim presents to them. India would only succeed in telling Pakistan what it has not found out, or how it has overlooked what was obvious. The suggestion is ludicrous, if not macabre. Is this what the theatre of the absurd all about?

It is the Pakistan army, which, for its own survival and aggrandisement, has created a particular mindset in Pakistan. It has persisted in spreading the canard that hostility with India is essential to the very existence of Pakistan. Such, at one time was the common belief in Pakistan, but of late there is a slow change and many of the discerning elites now feel that continued hostility with India will impose an unacceptable burden on Pakistan. The Pakistan army resists this onset of liberating trends by systematically fuelling separatism in the Kashmir valley, by undertaking operations in Kargil [Images], and the like.

Fanning fear of India in Pakistan has been the main theme of the Pakistan army. It is the fountainhead of instability in the subcontinent. It is ruling Pakistan by proxy.

It would be an extremely difficult task to discredit the Pakistan army. It is bold and brazen, and at the same time, it knows how to survive.

A mix of means, not excluding force and its threats would have to be employed by befriending all those who look to terminate the Islamists in the subcontinent. It is for India to make the people of Pakistan aware that 'Hindu' India poses no problem to it. India just cannot 'rule' over Pakistan, or dictate terms to it, what with Pakistan's 97 percent Muslim population. India has neither the design nor the ability to do so. Yes, Pakistan would and could happily coexist with India in the subcontinent, and both countries could prosper.

The importance of faith would never be subsumed in the subcontinent, and India in no circumstances would ever want to prescribe to Pakistan either secularism or democracy. India respects the choice of the people of Pakistan; they must decide according to their outlook.

India had better brace itself to trudge alone and unaided in achieving its strategic objective. However, the rewards would be many and satisfying: the Kashmir problem will evaporate, the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation will acquire substance, and the subcontinent will be on its way to coherence.

The matching of 'means' with the stated strategic objectives is the more difficult part of the strategy. However, without the guiding light of the strategic objective, no beginning will ever be made. Means may have to be fashioned if they are not available.

The first step, of course, is to suitably enable and task the intelligence apparatus so that it can pursue the strategic theme in making its plans and processing the information that it obtains. India can no longer rely on information when it chances upon it, or which is fed to it; nor must it face the prospect of irreversible damage.

Preparedness for war ensures peace, and not pacifism, or appeasement, as was found to its terrible cost by Great Britain in 1930s. Mobilisation need not mean war, provided appropriate communication is maintained and care is exercised. Mobilisation and concentration does not rob skilful commanders of opportunities to achieve surprise. In fact, they create new possibilities. We have the example of President Anwar Sadat of Egypt [Images] achieving complete surprise in 1973 in spite numerous concentrations, followed by subsequent withdrawals. India has the option of repeating 'Parakram', or parts of it, as many times as it likes, till all the means required by it for the final push are available. There is no cause or justification for dithering at this stage.

Ashok Joshi retired as a lieutenant general from the Indian Army [Images].

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby suneels » 15 Dec 2008 02:22

Dear Sir Vikram,
I am taking the liberty of answering you, because you are the only one who has not just shot off his mouth or is good at cut-pasting other perples articles.

To begin with I am not ranting. When I read some of the Cr*p written here, it is no small wonder that Ms. Roy has a larger readership than BR.

Revenge is good. Its even better when it is tasted colder.

Plan, train, execute and return to homebase before the world knows whats happened.

A regiment for an eye, and a country for a city.... that should be our motto.

There will be several Ms. Roys and such peaceniks, but our own propoganda division should be able to handle it, (to date we still rely on AIR and DD... what a joke!)

We cannot (till today) counter world opinion.... in spite of so many brilliant IFS officers in the field.

Jago Bharat jago
Suneel

Vikram_S wrote:
suneels wrote:Hello
"The Guardian" published in UK has a larger readership than all the combined soothsayers in BR.
That is a fact.
No I don not smoke, and no I don't drink "tharra" either...
Please give a disseminated reply to Ms. Roy or just learn to live with the fact that we are just bedbugs in a humoungous world... Siraf Macchar.
If you wish to counter Ms. Roy, please learn to be erudite and publish facts to the world, 'cos "boss" we in BR are NOT the world!
Grow up and give a responsible rejoinder or live with this reality. Period.
Suneel
BTW: I've been hit thrice by Exocets in 1984 and am still alive and kicking, thank you...
Have you ever seen blood?
Stop ranting and come up with something ORIGINAL for a change.



suneels
you are the one who is ranting, pls cool down

nothing personal here but you posted an article by horrible hag - suzanne arundhati roy who is known on BR to be horrible creature and writes cent per cent treason

what reaction did you expect from us on her

the guardian is leftist newspaper which take pride in calling india names, obviously it will do so now using jaichands in india like suzanne arundhati roy

unfortunately even if you, i, we try to counter suzanne arundhati roy, guardian will edit your response or not even print it

that is way of things

just conserve your anger, know who indian enemies are and leave rest to time. if we manage our affair well one day these fellows will be busy begging us for survival

all of them are scumballs

today robert fisk another guardian person and pro-Arab fellow tried to blame mumbai on indians
such people are like cockroaches unfortunately in numbers and how many to bother about

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Muppalla » 15 Dec 2008 02:38

suneels wrote:There will be several Ms. Roys and such peaceniks, but our own propoganda division should be able to handle it, (to date we still rely on AIR and DD... what a joke!)


I guess you are really joking. There are several private channels that give credits to her now. In fact DD and AIR doesn't give much.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Gerard » 15 Dec 2008 03:17


vsudhir
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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby vsudhir » 15 Dec 2008 03:23

Tilak wrote:Jamaat transferred money out of most bank accounts: report
Last Updated: 22:41 IST(14/12/2008)


This is beyond eyewash. This is hogwash.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rye » 15 Dec 2008 04:24

Problem solved everyone. ISI no longer controls the LeT/JuD because Pakis say so. :roll:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/14m ... ardari.htm

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby vsudhir » 15 Dec 2008 04:28

India's Al Qaida

India Today profiles the LeT/JuD. Good read.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby enqyoob » 15 Dec 2008 04:55

{OK, folks, enuf pls on the smell from the following:

Hafeez saeed, pervez musharraf, tony bliar, a.roy, pankaj mish-mash ra, vijay prashad, Abdul Aidid, dur ka butt, pakdef, pirabakaran, blian croughley, prakah & brinda kraits. If you must post stuff from these, please do so at the khabar-e-jeehad thread where it can be properly analyzed}

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby blacktiger » 15 Dec 2008 05:05

There is a news on News1 channel of Porkiland that Ajmal Kasab was from Nepal and was abducted by Indians in 2006. Some brigadier pig is also being interviewed. See this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loRZyRwOirk

It is hard to believe, how hard pigs are trying to disown their piglet
Last edited by blacktiger on 15 Dec 2008 05:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby blacktiger » 15 Dec 2008 05:10

Continuing on my previous post, here is the story in Jang.

Ajmal Kasab kidnapped from Nepal before 2006: lawyer

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=18958

RAWALPINDI: A Pakistani lawyer C M Farooque claimed that many people, including Ajmal Kasab, were arrested before 2006 from Kathmandu by the Indian agencies with the help of Nepalese forces.

He said Ajmal Kasab went to the Napalese capital on a business tour. His application regarding his arrest was lying pending in the Nepalese Supreme Court in which a reply was sought from Nepalese forces and Indian High Commission.

While talking to the Geo News, C M Farooque Advocate said the Nepalese forces arrested almost 200 people including Ajmal Kasab before 2006 and his application in this regard was lying pending in the Nepalese Supreme Court in which Nepalese forces and Indian High Commission were made respondents.

The advocate said he wrote letters to Pakistan and Indian governments in this regard. He said that he had also addressed a press conference in Nepal highlighting the issue in which he revealed that the Nepalese forces arrested Ajmal Kasab and many others and held them at an unknown place and that these people would be used for their ulterior designs at some later stage. He said that he had no contact with Ajmal Kasab ever since he disappeared.

The lawyer said he was still pleading the case of Kasab and was to visit Nepal towards the end of this month. The Nepalese Supreme Court had repeatedly issued notices to the respondents to furnish their reply but they did not submit any reply.

Advocate Farooque said he had filed the petition in the Nepalese Supreme Court in February 2008. He said he was running an NGO, ‘Voice of Human and Prisoners Rights’ and the parents of Ajmal Kasab contacted him for help in this regard after appealing to the Pakistan Government for help.

The people arrested in Nepal had gone there on legal visa for business but Indian agencies were in the habit of capturing Pakistanis from Nepal and afterwards implicated them in the Mumbai-like incidents to malign Pakistan.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby enqyoob » 15 Dec 2008 05:27

Please change user handle from "blacktiger" which violates forum guidelines. May I suggest "KariEli" which means the same thing in Malloo but sounds "human" per forum guidelines?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby suneels » 15 Dec 2008 07:53

Hello
M.V Iran Shojjat, Exocet through the Engine room, no deaths, vessel rescued.
M.V Iran Itihad - Vessel sunk, all saved
M.V Iran Nazr - Vessel beached, refloated and no lives lost.

Only one injury, a dumb goy who lost his thumb trying to fire a safety rocket (ex-IN Cdr.)

Location: Buoy no.9 on the channel to Bandar Khomeini.

Yeah right, shiver your timbers, babe.

Tilak wrote:
suneels wrote:BTW: I've been hit thrice by Exocets in 1984 and am still alive and kicking, thank you...
Have you ever seen blood?


1984, you sure ??. Shiver me timbers! :rotfl: :rotfl:.


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