Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Prem
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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Prem » 18 Dec 2008 08:42

Mumbai terrorist gave us good excuse to send few hoorirats to their way to Hoor journey . The oppertunity was wasted just like the Earthquake when Puke army was buried deep in POK.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Avarachan » 20 Dec 2008 11:27

ramana wrote:NRao its poor perfomance to piss on information and feedback. Try to read between the lines and craft strategy.

GOI understands what the foreign interlocutor is saying. And hence the reluctance to provide legitimacy for the TSPA by massing troops. It has to be tackled in other ways and at same time keep out the US form the area.

Go back and read SB Chavan's speech in Lok Sabha after the Mumbai blasts and the ABV speech in Tajikistan in 2003.

Why do you think the US is revealing and confirming all that GOI has been saying all these years? Its to goad the UPA to take some action and get embroiled and provide a role for US. It has to be done in an Indian way.


Ramana, what exactly is the Indian way? I would love to believe that our government has some sort of master strategy to defeat Pakistan, but I see no evidence of it.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Suppiah » 20 Dec 2008 19:04

The periodic 'let us identify and work with moderate taliban' trial balloons floated by Unkil and his poodles in London should worry anyone in Indian Govt wanting to work more closely with them on TSP matters. Obama is exactly the kind of person that will wash Unkil's hands off the entire matter, by allying with this mythical moderate-Taliban, with TSP and ISI playing pujari role solemnising the wedding. India (indian interests) will be the goat sacrificed for the feast. I am sure this exact fear is there in Pak-barian minds too (in reverse obviously) and this is the fear/opportunity that GOI seems interested in exploiting by playing this waiting game. This approach, will of course, also keep the Stalinist mass murderer loud mouths and their paymasters happy. Congress has no stomach to take them on anyway as they may need them again post GE.

We can only use Unkil where possible always knowing at the back of our minds that they will ditch us at anytime of their choosing. This is not to say they are evil, it is politics, period. Right now the 'use' is in keeping the pressure on TSP and spreading the message far and wide that TSP = Terror. This has huge economic costs for TSP.

Let us watch the space..of course, it may just be a convenient camouflage for inaction, ineptitude and vote-bank politics. The dilly-dallying with Antulay points the wrong way..

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby archan » 20 Dec 2008 19:37

Meh..
Steps taken by Pak not enough: US
Washington: Pakistan has taken some "positive steps" after the Mumbai terror attacks for which India has blamed a Pakistan-based terrorist group but "they are not nearly enough", according to US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

Meh...
Iran urges Pakistani clampdown on terrorism
Iran's deputy foreign minister urged Pakistan on Friday to boost its counter-terror efforts, three weeks after the Mumbai attacks that India has blamed on a Pakistan-based militant group.

"Our Pakistani friends, they should also take the lessons and they should also deal with the terrorists in a very strong manner," Mohammad Mehdi Akhondzadeh told reporters in New Delhi.

And snoooze...
BJP not for continuing composite dialogue with Pak

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby suneels » 20 Dec 2008 20:31

EDITED

Bye, I'm outta here, and woe betide any ex-IN Electrical officer who is inept... (kissi pe to khunnas nilkalin hai....) :)
Lets see what ilk the Somalians are made of for a change...
Cheers and no pissing contests as promised...
Be back in six months to see where we have progressed (or digressed)...
Cheers
Suneel


Tilak wrote:Apologies for the OT posts.. folks.. :oops:

wamanrao wrote:This is such a pointless pi$$ing match. Many here, I am willing to bet, are uninterested in who has seen "action" and who is the "mythbuster" and other assorted things. Take that offline please - just a request.


Point taken, and apologies especially for disturbing, your daily "reading experience".
Last edited by Jagan on 21 Dec 2008 06:02, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Seriously - frequently calling members Armchair this and that is not going to win you any friends.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby suneels » 20 Dec 2008 20:51

So that makes you an Iraqi...
:)
Give it up and we will yet make an Indian outa you Sir!
Cheers
Suneel
narayanan wrote:I was the pilot of the Mirage 2020 that fired all those Exocets. 8)

cbelwal

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby cbelwal » 20 Dec 2008 21:02

Some bold move by Oberoi-Trident. Hope Taj follows suit.

Trident will not entertain Pak nationals: Keswani

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... akistanis'

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby krishnan » 20 Dec 2008 21:24

cbelwal wrote:Some bold move by Oberoi-Trident. Hope Taj follows suit.

Trident will not entertain Pak nationals: Keswani

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... akistanis'


And how will you find out whether he is a paki? I am sure its not stamped on his forehead

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Singha » 20 Dec 2008 21:32

guests need to show some photo id nowadays like driving license or passport.
ofcourse fakes are cheap to obtain via underworld.

this is being insisted on in other hotels too like marriott, who also use bomb sniffing
labrador at entrance, sliding metal gates(closed by default) and opening of boot and
engine bay of all cars apart from sliding mirror below. there is also metal detector
at lobby entrance and all electronics/bags are checked separately. this in chennai
so am sure in rest of india also. there is also armed state police at such big hotels
frequented by foreigners.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby asprinzl » 20 Dec 2008 22:44

"He is a young man who has been indoctrinated. Had I been the judge I would not have ordered to hang him. I would have given him life imprisonment. So that he realises that his fate is in the hell of Indian jails and not in the paradise as the Mullahs might have convinced him," Jethmalani said.


I admire intelligent minds and this is skull full of cow dung mind. A living prisoner will give the enemy reason to take hostages as bargaining chip to get the prisoner released. This is a mistake Israel keeps making which I am afraid will be to her own peril. And this idiot Jethmalani wants to keep alive a terrorist so that some other jihadiot somewhere will have a reason to hijack an Indian airline or a boat full of Indian fishermen or a ship full of Indian sailors near the coast of Somalia and take them hostage to be exchanged for the terrorist sitting in Indian jail. Absolutely brilliant. Lets give him an award.
Avram

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby shynee » 21 Dec 2008 06:26

Trident already retracted the statement.

All nationalities welcome at Trident: Keswan

"There are some reports in the media that Pakistani nationals are not allowed at hotels. We have not received a notification to that effect from the government of India," he said.

cbelwal wrote:Some bold move by Oberoi-Trident. Hope Taj follows suit.

Trident will not entertain Pak nationals: Keswani

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... akistanis'

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby a_kumar » 21 Dec 2008 07:22

asprinzl wrote:I admire intelligent minds and this is skull full of cow dung mind. A living prisoner will give the enemy reason to take hostages as bargaining chip to get the prisoner released.

.....

And this idiot Jethmalani wants to keep alive a terrorist so that some other jihadiot somewhere will have a reason to hijack an Indian airline or a boat full of Indian fishermen or a ship full of Indian sailors near the coast of Somalia and take them hostage to be exchanged for the terrorist sitting in Indian jail.


Worse..
- This insect will live on Indian taxpayer's money..
- If at least, one of his co-prisoners gets brainwashed and convinced to go along.. we will be dealing with more of these who may eventually get out..(remember he will not be living with angels/saints).

Not sure how that is a good investment according to Jethmalani!!!

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby shiv » 21 Dec 2008 08:33

suneels wrote:Be back in six months


So soon? Why?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Sasi » 21 Dec 2008 09:02

We can use Kasab and other Paki vermins for some clinical (subhuman) trials for some of the drugs Ranbaxy and Reddy Labs are developing. :lol:

a_kumar wrote:
asprinzl wrote:I admire intelligent minds and this is skull full of cow dung mind. A living prisoner will give the enemy reason to take hostages as bargaining chip to get the prisoner released.

.....

And this idiot Jethmalani wants to keep alive a terrorist so that some other jihadiot somewhere will have a reason to hijack an Indian airline or a boat full of Indian fishermen or a ship full of Indian sailors near the coast of Somalia and take them hostage to be exchanged for the terrorist sitting in Indian jail.


Worse..
- This insect will live on Indian taxpayer's money..
- If at least, one of his co-prisoners gets brainwashed and convinced to go along.. we will be dealing with more of these who may eventually get out..(remember he will not be living with angels/saints).

Not sure how that is a good investment according to Jethmalani!!!

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Vivek_A » 21 Dec 2008 10:22

Admins. Beg your indulgence. I was rooting for Israel but this is for the Israeli monday morning QBing on the way Indian forces handled the bombay attack.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1048056.html

U.S. report: Hezbollah fought Israel better than any Arab army
By Natasha Mozgovaya, Haaretz Correspondent
Tags: Second Lebanon War, US army

A new report from the U.S. Army War College warns that the American military must learn the lessons of the Second Lebanon War, in which Hezbollah operated more like a conventional army than a guerrilla organization.

The report, "The 2006 Lebanon Campaign and the Future of Warfare: Implications for Army and Defense Policy," warns against placing too heavy an emphasis on classic guerrilla warfare, and raises the possibility of further non-state actors following the Lebanese militant group's example.

"Hezbollah's 2006 campaign in southern Lebanon has been receiving increasing attention as a prominent recent example of a non-state actor fighting a Westernized state," the authors of the report state. "In particular, critics of irregular-warfare transformation often cite the 2006 case as evidence that non-state actors can nevertheless wage conventional warfare in state-like ways."

The authors of the report, Dr. Stephen D. Biddle and Jeffrey A. Friedman, state that changes made by the U.S. Army in conducting urban warfare against guerrilla fighters in Iraq could compromise the military's ability to deal with other enemies in the future.

The authors give a high grade to Hezbollah's performance in the 2006 war, describing it as more effective than that of any Arab army that confronted Israel in the Jewish state's history, and that Hezbollah militants wounded more Israelis per fighter than any previous Arab effort.

Unlike a traditional guerrilla force, however, Hezbollah emphasized holding territory and digging in to bunkers, instead of the usual tactic of hiding among civilian populations. Likewise, the militant organization's discipline and coordination highly resembled those of conventional armies.

This combination of conventional and guerrilla tactics, the report claims, places new challenges before the U.S. Army. It calls for preparing the military for asymmetrical urban warfare, while at the same time working closely with civilian populations. It also calls for reducing military activity likely to harm the image of the U.S.

The report indicates that no army can be ideally prepared to deal with both kinds of enemy, conventional and guerrilla, simultaneously, and that in light of the discrepancies between the lessons of the Second Lebanon War and the current U.S. experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, serious challenges confront military planners.

While fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan demands the ability to defeat guerrilla forces, the example of Lebanon may inspire enemies of the U.S. to adopt more conventional methods.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby suneels » 21 Dec 2008 10:42

:rotfl:
Roti, Kapda aur Makan.
Why else?

shiv wrote:
suneels wrote:Be back in six months


So soon? Why?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby archan » 21 Dec 2008 20:33

Outlook: An open letter to Arundhati Roy
To call the foreign funded insurgency in Kashmir and the terror attacks across the country as justified blowback for the failures of the Indian state and civil society is both false and callous. It implies a failure of the imagination and the intellect and the complete abdication of moral responsibility by you.

AoA, someone spoke!

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby kobe » 21 Dec 2008 20:38

i hope as the hotels re-open, the memories won't fade,
pakistan partition agenda must be kept alive

i heard rumors of war planning/preparations (from a news paper),
it mentioned preparations for strikes deep inside POK have
completed (air strikes + commando raids)

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby sum » 21 Dec 2008 20:43

I think its our DDM hyping up a sentence of the latest stratfor analysis which mentions that Indian military is ready for strikes and only awaits the go-ahead....

Though, i really pray that the GoI is actually growing a pair and actually thinking on aggressive lines instead of wondering how to restore relations at the earliest? :roll:

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby kobe » 21 Dec 2008 20:52

archan wrote:Outlook: An open letter to Arundhati Roy
To call the foreign funded insurgency in Kashmir and the terror attacks across the country as justified blowback for the failures of the Indian state and civil society is both false and callous. It implies a failure of the imagination and the intellect and the complete abdication of moral responsibility by you.

AoA, someone spoke!


the above open letter was too polite:

i can summarise the above letter in one sentence.

"arundhoti roy is still a virgin, she is 1 of 72 fckuing the dead muslim terrorists"

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby kshirin » 21 Dec 2008 21:01

archan wrote:Outlook: An open letter to Arundhati Roy
To call the foreign funded insurgency in Kashmir and the terror attacks across the country as justified blowback for the failures of the Indian state and civil society is both false and callous. It implies a failure of the imagination and the intellect and the complete abdication of moral responsibility by you.

AoA, someone spoke!


Very dignified article - the feedback pages (some of which address her by her full name SAR) are also good. The praise for her is unwarranted even though it is a bit tongue in cheek. A good writer is not automatically qualified to weigh in on national issues and she is arrogant enough to think that.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby sum » 21 Dec 2008 21:06

Is it only me or are others facing problems in posting replies?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Abhi_G » 21 Dec 2008 21:31

kshirin wrote: A good writer is not automatically qualified to weigh in on national issues and she is arrogant enough to think that.


There have been / are many writers writing in vernacular languages about ills affecting our society. These writers did not strike in the roots of a shared national way of thinking influenced by Hinduism. The english language writers of today are far far away from that ethos. The difference is these guys and gals have a different agenda - to erase the Hindu existence from the face of the planet. They are the miners and sappers of invading forces. It is true that writers and philosophers need to prick the conscience of fellow human beings about the injustices but the solutions should be in the framework of Hindu Dharma. SAR's thinking is tuned to the dialectics of history (refer to Ram Swarup's writings), so hers and others world view are similar to the marxist and islamic discourse about perpetual liberation war or jihad.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby kshirin » 21 Dec 2008 21:34

Outlook has an excellent article / transcript with Salman Rushdie. I agree with so much of what he says, specially about Roy and sufism in Kashmir.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... sid=1&pn=6

FOR THE RECORD
'Brutality, Incompetence And Cynical Duplicity'
'Arundhati Roy wrote: You have a very simple choice: Justice or civil war... I want to really take issue with this. I do not believe that the project of the terrorists has anything to do with justice.'
Asia Society, South Asian Journalist Association, Indo-American Arts Council, Rome Hartman interview Salman Rushdie

The following remarks by Mr Salman Rushdie have been excerpted and transcribed from the audio recording of the panel discussion -- "Understanding the Mumbai Attacks" -- in which he participated along with authors Mira Kamdar and Suketu Mehta. It was organised jointly by the Asia Society, the South Asian Journalist Association (SAJA) and the Indo-American Arts Council. The discussion was moderated by Rome Hartman, executive producer for BBC World News America. The full audio, as well as the video of the conversation is available on the website of the Asia Society

***

[Opening Remarks]

Well, first of all, I think, it is very difficult, as you said in the beginning, to articulate exactly how deeply we were affected by what we saw. I think there were many days when it was almost impossible to think, let alone to speak about what was happening, specially I think to those of us who grew up on those streets. And by the way, I think we have all agreed before hand that we are going to call the city by its proper name, which is Bombay. It is Bombay that was attacked and not Mumbai. And, by the way, I cannot say, and this is the only time I will say it, the words "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus". This railway station is and always will be VT. And so, because these are the names of love, the others are the artificial names imposed by the politicians. But these are the names of the city that we love.

I think it was something like a perfect storm that happened in Bombay, that you put together the incredible brutality of the killers, fuelled as we now know by industrial quantities of cocaine and other drugs that were found in their bodies and in their possessions. Combine that with, what I think is generally seen as a collapse of the Indian response, the Indian security response really was negligible. Three hours to get a fire engine to the Taj, a hotel that stands right next to the water. Twelve hours before the commandos were able to go in because they didn't have a plane to get to Bombay. Etc Etc. So that's the second part of it.

But I think the third part of it that has become increasingly clear is perhaps the dominant element and that is the absolute duplicity and hypocrisy of the Pakistani state. So much so that even today, the President of Pakistan, interviewed by the BBC said there is no evidence that Pakistan was involved in this. Even when the father of the surviving terrorist has identified his son as being a Pakistani, the President of Pakistan says that is not evidence.

So here you have these three forces coming together: Brutality, incompetence and cynical duplicity and what that did was to create this horror. .........................

.....................[On Pakistan's Dysfunctional Power Elite]

We need to say something about where they came from. And about the enormous resentment that the Pakistani power elite has felt about the success of India. There is this you know this thriving... I mean, I think of course we can all, you know, elucidate the many things that are wrong with India. That would be an interesting discussion but... another one. We don't have time.

But here you have this country that is, broadly speaking, democratic and, broadly speaking, economically successful and, broadly speaking, free. On the other hand you have this basket case, you know, where the Punjabis hate the Sindhis and everybody hates the North West Frontier and Balochistan is trying to get away.

Laughs

And half the country already got away, you know. So you have this decreasingly functioning society which has no institutions on which a free society could be built, in which the army is increasingly Islamicised, the army leadership is increasingly Islamicised, the ISI -- the Inter Services Intelligence, the Pakistani intelligence agency -- is totally out of control and the civilian politicians are not that much better. President Zardari, I remember, when, as Benazir Bhutto's husband, he was known as Mr 10 Per cent because of the amount of government money he had siphoned off. And then in Pakistan they decided that it was unfair, unjust to call him Mr Ten Per Cent. So they changed his nickname to Mr Twenty Per Cent which was a clearer reflection of his actual skills.

Here you have a country in the face of the world's agreement about what happened, just blindly refusing to accept it: "No, we don't know. What is the evidence? Where is the evidence? Show us the evidence. And we will fearlessly prosecute them..."

...

[Interjecting when a reference to root causes and justice came up]

Speaking of the roots, I think one of the, I think one of the most worrying developments in the aftermath of the attacks, has been the willingness of a number of commentators, particularly on the left, to place the question of roots in the concept of justice.

People have said that the reason for these attack was that there is injustice, that Indian Muslims are economically disadvantaged in India, that they have much lower educational qualifications, they have much higher unemployment rates and then of course there is the great injustice of Kashmir. As the argument be that while those injustices exist that is the thing from which these actions spring.

And as our colleague Arundhati Roy wrote the other night, as she ended her article, she said: You have a very simple choice: Justice or civil war -- and you choose. As Suketu said, that is the entire spectrum of possibility from A to B.

[Suketu Mehta on his part agreed with what Rushdie had to say and pointed out that the attack on Parliament in 2001 for example predated the Gujarat pogroms]
[Laughs]

I want to really take issue with this. Because I mean, I think, anyone who knows what I have written in my life knows that I am quite seriously concerned with the condition of Kashmir. And I think that Indian authorities are culpable in the way in which they have treated the ordinary people of Kashmir but so are Jaish-e-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.

And you have the people of Kashmir caught between a rock and a hard place. You know, you have a kind of fanatic Islam arriving from Pakistan which is not in keeping with the sufistic Islam that is traditional in Kashmir. So you have this Arabised Islam being forced upon people on the one hand, at the point of a gun, and on the other hand you have Indian security forces treating all Kashmiris as if they are terrorists, and often very brutally. So that's there.


But the point I want to make is that I do not believe that the terrorists such as these -- I do not believe that their project has anything to do with justice.

Ask yourself the question that if the Kashmir problem were resolve tomorrow, if Israel-Palestine reached a lasting peace, do we believe that al-Qaeda would disband? Do we believe that Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad would put their guns down and beat them into plough-shears and say we would now be farmers because our job is done.

I mean the point about is that is laughable, right? And the point about that is that that is not their project. Their project is power. This is a power grab by the most obscurantist, revanchist, old-fashioned, medievalist idea of modern culture that attempts to drag the world back into the middle ages at the point of modern weaponry ...

[The moderator: "You mentioned Arundhati Roy. This leads me to a question that came from the audience and I want to make sure that we get to as many of these as we can. This question mentions another point that was made in this article, in which the phrase was "the Taj is not our icon" and a criticism that ... and I know you have written lovingly about the Taj... Address that criticism,that it may be somebody's icon but is not ours" [Arundhati Roy in her article had actually written: "We're told one of these hotels is an icon of the city of Mumbai. That's absolutely true. It's an icon of the easy, obscene injustice that ordinary Indians endure every day."--Ed ]

[size=150]I thought that particular remark in her piece was disgusting. The idea that the deaths of the rich don't matter because they are rich is disgusting.

The idea that the 12 members of the Taj staff, who heroically gave their lives to save many of the guests, are to be discounted because they were presumably the lackeys of the rich -- this is nauseating. This is amoral. And she should be ashamed of herself.


[On the ineptitude of the response -- why the private sector is dynamic, efficient and responsive while the public sector is not]

Because of the venality and cynicism of so much of the political class in India, which I think now people in India feel an enormous amount of scorn and contempt for. You saw what happened after the attacks, that the father of one of the police officers who was killed, was was visited by the chief minister of a state, he threw him out. He didn't want to have anything to do with you. And that's a pretty general attitude towards politicians in India. I mean, look at the scale of how bad the response was.

We now hear that Indian intelligence had informed the coast guard on that evening that they were expecting an attack -- a Lashkar-e-Toiba attack by sea. That evening. And the coast guard had been alerted to go and find the ship. They failed to find it. The Taj hotel had been repeatedly told about an attack by sea and to beef up their security which they did for about two months and then nothing happens and so they took it down, the security down again. And then the attack happened.

The police officers who were wearing bullet-proof vests were wearing clothing so old that it could not stop the high velocity rifles that were being used and so three senior police officers were killed within moments of the attack beginning because the bullets just went through their protective armour.

The commandos who eventually went in were actually based in Delhi and had no dedicated aircraft. So they couldn't get to Bombay. It took them 12 hours to enter the buildings. And as I say, the fire engines. In a city that sits by the sea, hotels that sit by the water were allowed to burn for three hours before water got to them.

Well, this... People could of course with some legitimacy say that the United States was caught unprepared as well you know, and the radios didn't work in the wall street zone...and you could of course make a similar catalogue of errors about what happened on that day on Sept 2001...But it was awful to watch as this pile of mistakes grow, while meanwhile the city was burning...The fact that there were - four terrorists in the Taj - who could hold on the Indian army for four days...when they were coked out of their heads, you know, snorting coke in one nostril, while executing people...I mean, the idea that they were allowed to go on...for four days is unthinkable...

So yes, I agree with Mira that to change the emphasis to these kind of draconian security laws is wrong because what you need to do is clearly to fix absence of a security machinery, you know...You need armoured vehicles, you need proper body protection, you need aircraft to bring people to the scene of the crime, you need a coastguard which can guard the coast, you know... I mean, India has a very long coastline. And y'know Karachi is only a hundred mile away from Bombay... So the idea that there can be an attack by sea is obvious, you know...And as I say, there were warnings...American intelligence says it told the Indian intelligence, many times. Indian intelligence itself says that it told the Bombay police, many times about it pand yet there is this colossal failure. The problem is there and to put it in the other place is to put it in the wrong place.

And I do mean to say, that when Suketu was talking about the quality of the city is what annoyed people

..............

[On the real issue: Pakistan]

These are not the causes of what happened. I mean, this is no doubt significant and We should debate how the media covers events, whichever country we are in. we can no doubt say, they got this wrong, they got that right, you know, but this is not the issue. The issue is -- and it is important as there is a new President due to take office in this country -- what should be the world's policy towards Pakistan? It is a very important matter right now. Because you have the British Prime Minister two days ago, Gordon Brown said that British intelligence, following up leads of various terrorists' activities, they informed him that 75 per cent of what they were studying led back to Pakistan. All the roads of world's terrorism lead to Pakistan
....

But it needs to be very very tough, that argument. It has to be made with enormous force. Who makes it? Let's start with the President of the United States. For the last years, since the 911 attacks, the American government policy towards Pakistan was to give them a lot of aid and to treat them as an ally in the war on terror.

So billions of dollar have been handed over first, mostly, to the Musharraf government and now its successor.

Without any requirement that that money should come with, let's say an agreement that Pakistan is not going to house the terrorists that we are supposed to be fighting against. Instead, Musharraf very skilfully played both ends against the middle. He was a westerner to the West and a Mullah to the mullahs. You know this is the man, remember, when Benazir was in power, it was Musharraf who set up the Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad.

When these groups were being created to fight in Kashmir, he was the general n the army who was given the task of monitoring and supporting those groups.

So we have treated Pakistan with this very velvet glove for a very long time and we have got in return is zero.

The headquarters of al-Qaeda, The headquarters of Taliban, the headquarters of Lashkar-e-Toba, the headquarters of Jaish-e-Mohammad, the world's centre of terrorism: Pakistan.

To be fair, even the last days of the Bush administration I think Condoleeza Rice's visit to Pakistan was very significant. I mean, it is quite clear that she told them that if they did not ban these groups, Pakistan will be declared a terrorist state. And they more or less said that when they gave their reasons for having made these restrictions.

But the problem with what's happened so far, it looks, certainly I think from an Indian perspective, things look like a sham. We have seen before, these leaders placed under house arrest, who continue to move freely. We have seen before the closing of an account, when another one springs up round the corner

When Zardari says of course we will prosecute them if we can locate them... you know, the SFX: horse laughing.

It is only two months, that the Zardari government authorised the purchase of an armoured vehicle to drive the leader of the LeT around. So he is driving around Pakistan in a state armoured car.

...

[On the ordinary Pakistanis and the power elite]

When you talk about what it is, Pakistan. The Islamic parties received less than 2 percent of the vote. When people in Pakistan are allowed - which they are not very often allowed - to express their opinion in an election that is not fixed, you know, when the ballots are not stuffed.. so this time the vote against Musharraf was so big that he couldn't fix the election actually. So you actually got a reflection of what people think. And they think regionally, you know --the Punjab votes for Nawaz Sharief, the Sindh votes for the PPP -- but they don't think like religious extremists. They do not vote for them. So on the one hand you have the mass of the people not being interested in the rhetoric of the jehad. But on the other hand you have the power elite being completely enthralled with it. That's the problem.

[Whether there is a continuing shadow of Partition over India-Pakistan relations?]

Only, in that if there hadn't been a Partition, there would be no Pakistan...

But, you know, I don't know. Yes, because people have long memories. But, I think, realistically no, I think what, the kind of things we have been talking about the political dynamic of what Islam is, what Islam has been turned into by certain groups in Pakistan...that has very little to do with 1947. So I am not sure it is a post-colonial problem, this. I think we have gone post post, I mean this is a next phase.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Prabu » 21 Dec 2008 22:31

Singha wrote:guests need to show some photo id nowadays like driving license or passport.
ofcourse fakes are cheap to obtain via underworld.

this is being insisted on in other hotels too like marriott, who also use bomb sniffing
labrador at entrance, sliding metal gates(closed by default) and opening of boot and
engine bay of all cars apart from sliding mirror below. there is also metal detector
at lobby entrance and all electronics/bags are checked separately. this in chennai
so am sure in rest of india also. there is also armed state police at such big hotels
frequented by foreigners.


Yes ! Completely agree ! We need no go to up to Big hotel like marriot ! Let us take Delhi for example. Even a economy hotel in Karol Bhagh ( charges some thing from 2000 to 3000 Indian rupees) demands a photo identity card for reservation and stay. The same thing should be extended to all over India as a strict security stipulation for all hotels / guest houses.

Apart from this other checkings as suggested will help !

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Prabu » 21 Dec 2008 22:41

sum wrote:Is it only me or are others facing problems in posting replies?

I had problems for 2 , 3 days. Now looks OK.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby kobe » 21 Dec 2008 23:39


sanjaykumar
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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby sanjaykumar » 22 Dec 2008 00:19

Why waste good glucose thinking on Arundhati Roy's sophomoric rantings?

If she is serious about applying her lofty ideals to unjust societies, Pakistan is issuing visas.

Intellectual honesty is at a premium for those who make their living by regrugitating the same cant ad nauseum. Ah well, there is a living in it.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby peter » 22 Dec 2008 00:32

Few questions:
a) Does this attack point to the ineptitude of this govt?
b) Would all the sabre rattling that is going on have been done after the "first" bomb attack killed the first Indian or somehow after loosing hundreds to terrorists within our borders we as a nation become angry? So what is the value of the life of the first indian who got killed if any?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Nandan D » 22 Dec 2008 08:17

I happenned to be on vacation in Mumbai during the attacks and was glued to the tele for a week.

So a couple of observations:

At least one channel (TimesNow) pointed out how Kasav was wearing the threads on his hand. TimesNow claimed that it was part of his disguise, and talked about how genuine it was, because fishermen in Mumbai often where threads on their hand. I'm not sure how far this is true.

I was appalled by the fact that the Marcos didn't have any night vision equipment. That to me was absolutely shocking. They kept talking about how they couldn't see the terrorists in the dark)

At least twice (besides the CST case) i saw live coverage - of Nariman house, where the policeman's weapon jammed - and he was clueless as to how to clear it..)

Read an article which stated that most mumbai cops, haven't fired their weapons in around 10 years!!!!!

And finally, this depressing observation. Are indians(perhaps Mumbaikars) just stupid when it comes to security?
There was added "security" everywhere I went, and that essentially means someone opens up your car, looks thru the trunk..and sometimes you have to pass thru a metal detector.
People that i talked to every where were impressed by the "security".

Is it really that hard to comprehend that all of the worlds metal detectors, and idiots opening the trunk of your car are absolutely worthless if there isn't an armed guard backing them up???????

It is time private security agencies are allowed to own automatic weapons... :evil:

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Nandan D » 22 Dec 2008 08:32

Prabu
Post subject: Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IVPosted: 21 Dec 2008 05:01 pm
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Singha wrote:
guests need to show some photo id nowadays like driving license or passport.
ofcourse fakes are cheap to obtain via underworld.

this is being insisted on in other hotels too like marriott, who also use bomb sniffing
labrador at entrance, sliding metal gates(closed by default) and opening of boot and
engine bay of all cars apart from sliding mirror below. there is also metal detector
at lobby entrance and all electronics/bags are checked separately. this in chennai
so am sure in rest of india also. there is also armed state police at such big hotels
frequented by foreigners.


Yes ! Completely agree ! We need no go to up to Big hotel like marriot ! Let us take Delhi for example. Even a economy hotel in Karol Bhagh ( charges some thing from 2000 to 3000 Indian rupees) demands a photo identity card for reservation and stay. The same thing should be extended to all over India as a strict security stipulation for all hotels / guest houses.

Apart from this other checkings as suggested will help !


Sorry, but i think these ideas are worthless. The only thing they do is give you an illusion of safety, and make life for the law abiding citizen more miserable.

ID cards, in India of all places can be faked.Easily. And you don't need to go to the underworld.

Its very hard to stop a determined terrorist who doesn't care about his own life, and has the resources of a country(in this case Pakistan) behind him.
This is a terrorist nation that successfully fakes our currency. ID cards are not a problem.

Metal detectors are worthless, if there are no armed guards backing them up!! Checking cars is also never thorough. It can't be. A good terrorist wouldn't have much of a problem getting past them or around them.

Heck the CST had metal detectors AND armed guards and *STILL* no one could stop two terrorists.


Things that would help?

For a start:
Allow private security agencies to own weapons, and own automatic weapons.
Let the Taj and Oberoi implement their own armed security. Give them the means of defending themselves.

And get rid of that damned .303. INSAS now!!!
And at least once a year, let the armed havaldar discharge his weapon at a firing range (once a week would be better, but lets get realistic)


Finally , Give the give Marcos some night vision equipment and the NSG a freaking dedicated plane!@#!@!

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby vdutta » 22 Dec 2008 08:39

Nandan D wrote:I happenned to be on vacation in Mumbai during the attacks and was glued to the tele for a week.

So a couple of observations:

At least one channel (TimesNow) pointed out how Kasav was wearing the threads on his hand. TimesNow claimed that it was part of his disguise, and talked about how genuine it was, because fishermen in Mumbai often where threads on their hand. I'm not sure how far this is true.

I was appalled by the fact that the Marcos didn't have any night vision equipment. That to me was absolutely shocking. They kept talking about how they couldn't see the terrorists in the dark)

At least twice (besides the CST case) i saw live coverage - of Nariman house, where the policeman's weapon jammed - and he was clueless as to how to clear it..)

Read an article which stated that most mumbai cops, haven't fired their weapons in around 10 years!!!!!

And finally, this depressing observation. Are indians(perhaps Mumbaikars) just stupid when it comes to security?
There was added "security" everywhere I went, and that essentially means someone opens up your car, looks thru the trunk..and sometimes you have to pass thru a metal detector.
People that i talked to every where were impressed by the "security".

Is it really that hard to comprehend that all of the worlds metal detectors, and idiots opening the trunk of your car are absolutely worthless if there isn't an armed guard backing them up???????

It is time private security agencies are allowed to own automatic weapons... :evil:


^^ thanks for pointing that out. i too never understood the meaning of extra security when it doesnt seem to do anything. i just see more police men, more checkpoints, few more metal detectors but if i was a terrorist then i wouldn't worry about them.

i went to a temple and they had a metal detector, about 3 people were passing through it at a time and there were hundreds of us. the guard didnt have any gun and had no backup. that machine beeped every single time but he didnt stop anyone, in fact it was impractical to stop that many people by just one guy.

even at delhi metro, when you pass through metal detector few immediate cisf guards have no weapons what so ever and ones who have weapons arent in a ready mode.

same with delhi airport etc...seems that all that security is present to take care of the miscreant after the fact but not to prevent the miscreant to do something nasty...

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby adharia » 22 Dec 2008 10:01

Just read the article by Arundati Roy..man what an article. Terrorists dont need any speeches by any lakhvi or any isi mullah. If they simply read her article they will be ready to kill all Hindus -- oh sorry I forgot most of them cant read English.
Thats besides the point. It is people like AR that create more terrorists and not the LETs or ISIs. This hypocracy will only lead to more killings and more crappy justifications. She is saying that the Indian jails are filled with muslims who are wrongly there..based on what, just 1 instance, and she wants justice for the Indian Muslims. If you look closely, Indian muslims are better off than the Pakis or Afghans or Banglas. If the modern world is so bad why do these pigs fantasize about going to US or England and why are there so many bangla refugees in India. They wanted a country for themselves so we gave it, now they want to come back to this unjust land ruled by KAFIRS. Its like a small kid who never likes his own candy, and always wants the one that you got.
AR should realise that muslim countries like afghanistan were reduced to scum by Taliban and not US, Bangaladesh, Pakistan are all failed nations. Who did this to them - Kafirs like us or ?? (I have started to like this word Kafir as i am fortunate to be one)...What will happen even if they did get Kashmir. They will reduce it one big Terrorist Training Camp and then fight for the "independence" of some place with their majority. Once they won the whole country, it will be Shia or Sunni INDEPENDENCE....(wonder which side would AR be then) till they have destroyed everything good in this world. She talks of one Babri Masjid, but forgets the 100s of temples destroyed. She talk to gujarat and forgives these pigs for killing Kashmiri Pandits. One Malegaon and all of Hindus are evil and unjust, and blasts in Mumbai, Delhi, Ahmdabad, Bangalore, Assam, Delhi & Mumbai(again)-- oh right this is fight for justice- you got to be kidding me. I really dont understand where this thinking comes from. There are more Indians justifying these terrorists than pakistanis. This is so sad and tragic. Well lets hope that ARs eyes will open only when she sees that this reptile will not show her any sympathy either, because no matter what she thinks or writes, she is also after all a KAFIR.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby vsudhir » 22 Dec 2008 21:10

Was it all along about the 1993 blasts convictions?

Interesting (& plausible) hypothesis.

The pre-Jaipur blasts timing however begins to make sense if one overlays the chronology of major events in the 1993 Mumbai Serial Blasts case.

October 19th 2005 - Aaj Tak airs first ever video of Dawood Ibrahim, video also features Govinda and other Bollywood actors, creates a major political controversy in India

October 29th 2005 - Delhi Serial Blasts, claim of responsibility by an unknown group called “Inquilab”

1st March 2006 - Abu Salem makes confessional statement in 1993 Blasts Case, names Sanjay Dutt

7th March 2006 - Varanasi Serial Blasts, claim of responsibilty by an unknown group called “Lashkar-e-Qahar”

Between April 2006 and July 2006 - Fresh Warrants are issued in 1993 Blasts Case, Abu Salem gets a separate trial, Ijaz Pathan who is named in the Jaipur Blasts email is reported to have switched loyalties while under-trial

11th July 2006 - Mumbai 7/11 serial blasts

In the immideate aftermath of the 7/11 blasts we learn that the TADA court hearing the 1993 Blasts case is going to start dictating its orders from August 10th. Quite likely the sponsors of 7/11 had some inkling of this. Interestingly once again unknown group Lashkar-e-Qahhar issues claim of responsibility for 7/11. Something that was overlooked back then was that the claim of responsibility was an e-mail from a cyber cafe in Indore, Madhya Pradesh.

Sept 2006 - Guilty verdict pronounced in 1993 Mumbai Blasts Case n batches

8th Sept 2006 - Malegaon Blasts

December 2006 - 100 convictions pronounced in 1993 Mumbai Blasts Cases. But more importantly 12 Dawood men were to be deported from Dubai including key members Yakub Yeda and Javed Chikna

16th Feb 2007 - Death penalty is sought for convicted in 1993 Mumbai Blasts Case

18th Feb 2007 - serial blasts on Samjhauta Express

Between March and April 2007 - Sentencing which was to start in April, in 1993 Blasts Cases postponed

May 2007 - Sentencing in Blasts Case begins on May 9th

18th May 2007 - Mecca Masjid blasts in Hyderabad

Between Jun and July 2007 - Yakub Memon gets death sentence on July 27th in 1993 Mumbai Blasts Case

August 2007 - Maharashtra Govt under immense pressure to act on Srikrishna Commission report, Abu Salem sings during narco-tests reveals Bollywood-Underworld nexus, implicates D-Company

25th August 2007 - Hyderabad serial blasts

From then on start the string of blasts for which Indian Mujahideen has been claiming responsibility.

23rd Nov 2007 - Uttar Pradesh Courthouses. The claim of responsibility was via e-mail sent from a cyber cafe in Delhi.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Singha » 22 Dec 2008 21:14

roy madam has some kinda of repressed desire to live under the shoes
of a new caliphate.

saudi arabia is the best place to deport her to.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby ramana » 22 Dec 2008 21:26

Vsudhir, The problem with connecting dots is one can connect the dots to make it look like a pitbull or a poodle. It has to be verified with other facts to see what kind of an animal it is. It may not be a dog at all.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby vijayk » 23 Dec 2008 00:11

adharia wrote:Just read the article by Arundati Roy..man what an article. Terrorists dont need any speeches by any lakhvi or any isi mullah. If they simply read her article they will be ready to kill all Hindus -- oh sorry I forgot most of them cant read English.
Thats besides the point. It is people like AR that create more terrorists and not the LETs or ISIs. This hypocracy will only lead to more killings and more crappy justifications. She is saying that the Indian jails are filled with muslims who are wrongly there..based on what, just 1 instance, and she wants justice for the Indian Muslims. If you look closely, Indian muslims are better off than the Pakis or Afghans or Banglas. If the modern world is so bad why do these pigs fantasize about going to US or England and why are there so many bangla refugees in India. They wanted a country for themselves so we gave it, now they want to come back to this unjust land ruled by KAFIRS. Its like a small kid who never likes his own candy, and always wants the one that you got.
AR should realise that muslim countries like afghanistan were reduced to scum by Taliban and not US, Bangaladesh, Pakistan are all failed nations. Who did this to them - Kafirs like us or ?? (I have started to like this word Kafir as i am fortunate to be one)...What will happen even if they did get Kashmir. They will reduce it one big Terrorist Training Camp and then fight for the "independence" of some place with their majority. Once they won the whole country, it will be Shia or Sunni INDEPENDENCE....(wonder which side would AR be then) till they have destroyed everything good in this world. She talks of one Babri Masjid, but forgets the 100s of temples destroyed. She talk to gujarat and forgives these pigs for killing Kashmiri Pandits. One Malegaon and all of Hindus are evil and unjust, and blasts in Mumbai, Delhi, Ahmdabad, Bangalore, Assam, Delhi & Mumbai(again)-- oh right this is fight for justice- you got to be kidding me. I really dont understand where this thinking comes from. There are more Indians justifying these terrorists than pakistanis. This is so sad and tragic. Well lets hope that ARs eyes will open only when she sees that this reptile will not show her any sympathy either, because no matter what she thinks or writes, she is also after all a KAFIR.


The idea is she along with COMMIES, scumbags such as Teesta Selvad love to see more riots, terrorism. It is what they love. Then they can go around and give speeches,w rite books, collect funds.. It is a big business. When I learned last week that Teesta Selvad has been making rape allegations in affidavits and making unwitting victims sign the documents, it shows how far these people will go to create communal divisions. When you see COMMIES were dispersing lakhs to each witness (not victims) through Teesta Selvad in Godhra cases, you wonder how much planning is going into this. Then scums such as Arundhati show these same cases and shouts "Genocide" and writes articles, books, makes speeches and gets rich. When you see that Congress paid 1.6 crores to run ads in Teesta Selva's publications, you will realize how organized COMMIES, CON party, Arundhatis, Teesta Selvads, NDTV, OutlookIndia etc are and how they are all working together systematically to achieve their own ends.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby skganji » 23 Dec 2008 02:00

Hindus are suffering in their own native land in the hands of Islamic terrorism, Christian terrorism, Political terrorism perpetuated by parties like Congress, Communists and Journalists like Arundhati Roy. Hope a day will come when Hindus will live their lifes with dignity and Honor as Jews live in Israel.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby James B » 23 Dec 2008 05:47


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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby vsudhir » 23 Dec 2008 05:58



Why is Bengaluru being pointedly ignored? Is it that the chennai NSG can provide them adequate cover or what?


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