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Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

enqyoob
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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby enqyoob » 08 Jan 2009 21:32

Munna, your points lead very clearly towards the Dlagon.

Usually when a new POTUS comes to power, the Dlagon uses the window of confusion for some major gains.

Maybe an Indian jhapad would be used as the pretext for a major Dlagon move through Nepal to destroy the North/Northeast or even the Siachen region, and do the long-delayed linkup between Aksai Chin and Skardu.

That is a very bad conclusion - that the Dlagon is no longer deterred.

NOW Hamid Gul's enthusiasm for starting a war makes eminent sense. He is protected by the Dlagon as seen in the UNSC.

Raju

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Raju » 08 Jan 2009 21:34

A fall guy, publicly visible, the sword always seems to hang on him, but the ******** is smugly assured what it is welded to the post. occasionally, that turns out to be not true because of some rapid or deft manouvering. And even when that happens, the controller is no where to be found. Of course 'ISI' is all too easy an answer. We need the structure of the decision making process. it is not, in my view, disorganized or chaotic.


that controller in TSPA is Kiyani. and he is sitting smugly.
and he is strongly supported by Unkil. :roll:

Again no one wants to look at the gorilla in the room.
Sights are firmly focussed on the bit players.

TSPA is doing unkil's work in the region. It has to be eliminated and neutralized so much so that it does not matter any more and can not do unkil's work.
Let us be the unkil ally in South West Asia and we will do what Pak Army is doing, and that will eliminate jehadi attacks on us.

TSPA actions in leaving evidence trail can have only one meaning .. that submission of India is complete and Obama admin mandate is to neutralize TSPA as it is of no more use for furthering US agenda.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby amdavadi » 08 Jan 2009 21:48

Only war with India can keep TSP alive, as TSP is commiting sucide, TSPA is desperately watching from outside as uncle wont let them remove zardari.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby archan » 08 Jan 2009 22:01

AFAIK the 15B aid over 10 years was sanctioned before 26/11. They have just not canceled it since the facade of "non-state actors" is still up.

In the end it all comes down to Bharat and its people making the choice. No matter who is planning what in the global arena, even smaller state have the ability to change global plans; and Bharat is a big nation. I have been hearing this for a while
we should not go to war because they want us to do exactly that. We will be playing into their hands.


I ask, "so what?"
If Bharat has the mettle, give them war if they want it and fight it so ferociously that in the end some of Bharat's objectives are clearly met, and for good. If there is fear of a) losing soldiers b) nuke attack, c) UN resolution stopping the war before we have finished the enemy; then just keep taking the jehadi attacks because no amount of intelligence is fool proof and one cannot put a policeman/armyman to patrol every inch of the border.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby NRao » 08 Jan 2009 22:08

AFAIK the 15B aid over 10 years was sanctioned before 26/11.


IIRC, this aid is also non-military with plenty of strings attached. Meant for infrastructure, etc. It was approved in July or so.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby IndraD » 08 Jan 2009 22:47

samuel wrote:Who controls Hamid Gul?


Zaid Hamid.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby JwalaMukhi » 08 Jan 2009 23:08

narayanan wrote:Munna, your points lead very clearly towards the Dlagon.

Usually when a new POTUS comes to power, the Dlagon uses the window of confusion for some major gains.

Maybe an Indian jhapad would be used as the pretext for a major Dlagon move through Nepal to destroy the North/Northeast or even the Siachen region, and do the long-delayed linkup between Aksai Chin and Skardu.

That is a very bad conclusion - that the Dlagon is no longer deterred.

NOW Hamid Gul's enthusiasm for starting a war makes eminent sense. He is protected by the Dlagon as seen in the UNSC.

archan wrote:AFAIK the 15B aid over 10 years was sanctioned before 26/11. They have just not canceled it since the facade of "non-state actors" is still up.

In the end it all comes down to Bharat and its people making the choice. No matter who is planning what in the global arena, even smaller state have the ability to change global plans; and Bharat is a big nation. I have been hearing this for a while
we should not go to war because they want us to do exactly that. We will be playing into their hands.


I ask, "so what?"
If Bharat has the mettle, give them war if they want it and fight it so ferociously that in the end some of Bharat's objectives are clearly met, and for good. If there is fear of a) losing soldiers b) nuke attack, c) UN resolution stopping the war before we have finished the enemy; then just keep taking the jehadi attacks because no amount of intelligence is fool proof and one cannot put a policeman/armyman to patrol every inch of the border.

The Indian response should be such that Dlagon doesn't have anymore leverage in messing in the region. Effectively, the response should be complete game changer and complete denial of foothold for the dlagon. Now kind of makes sense when we see reports that we are not adequately prepared. When the mad-rabid-dog pakis are neutered, then India will immediately face the actual puppeteers face to face and the facade and mask of these attack dogs will no longer be possible.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby HariC » 08 Jan 2009 23:30

Rangudu wrote:Talking to conspiracy theorists on BR is the same as talking to Zaid Hamid types or TSPA apologists. "


Can we start referring to Zaid Hamid as Gay-id Hamid? I suspect Gay-id is getting too many chuckles reading his name on BR.. lets rub it in while we can.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby RajaJi » 09 Jan 2009 00:04

HariC wrote:
Rangudu wrote:Talking to conspiracy theorists on BR is the same as talking to Zaid Hamid types or TSPA apologists. "


Can we start referring to Zaid Hamid as Gay-id Hamid? I suspect Gay-id is getting too many chuckles reading his name on BR.. lets rub it in while we can.


Makes perfect sense, I did read somewhere that he indeed was the homosexual lover of his pigambar yusuf ali the so called "false prophet".

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby RajaJi » 09 Jan 2009 00:10

archan wrote:AFAIK the 15B aid over 10 years was sanctioned before 26/11. They have just not canceled it since the facade of "non-state actors" is still up.

In the end it all comes down to Bharat and its people making the choice. No matter who is planning what in the global arena, even smaller state have the ability to change global plans; and Bharat is a big nation. I have been hearing this for a while
we should not go to war because they want us to do exactly that. We will be playing into their hands.


I ask, "so what?"
If Bharat has the mettle, give them war if they want it and fight it so ferociously that in the end some of Bharat's objectives are clearly met, and for good. If there is fear of a) losing soldiers b) nuke attack, c) UN resolution stopping the war before we have finished the enemy; then just keep taking the jehadi attacks because no amount of intelligence is fool proof and one cannot put a policeman/armyman to patrol every inch of the border.


I agree 100% with this, we should beat them at their own game. Play into their hands and start a war, but hit them so hard that they are unable to get up again ever. Eliminate the puppet, so the puppeteers are left empty handed, end this game. Maro yaan maro, and we have been choosing the latter for a long time, it's time to maro now.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby sudeepj » 09 Jan 2009 00:38

I am not sure if this has been posted already. Its a gripping account of how a local Shiv Sena Shakha Pramukh helped with the NSG operations. It also comes through very clearly how the Nariman house locality was completely left to its own devices by the Mumbai Police.

http://specials.rediff.com/news/2009/ja ... -house.htm

When we saw all the blood it made us more angry. I asked the other workers to tell me where the bullets and grenades were coming from. They said from inside. Our anger began to build.

We were not scared and after quickly putting the wounded into vehicles, and dispatching them to the hospital, we went into the gates of Nariman House.

The boys started picking up stones -- whatever we could find. We started chucking them into the building. I was there with several of my workers -- Rocky Pereira, Kamlesh Singh, Shripad Bhate and others. They were giving galees (bad words) -- as we went inside.

But when I looked into Nariman House I saw a gunman standing on the first floor stairwell. And he had a '47 (AK-47) in his hands....

That's when I told everyone that we better get the hell out there. We pulled everyone out. I told them let's not be crazy. Stones won't work in this situation. They have ammunition. I didn't want to die. We had to save ourselves and then figure out how to kill them.


When NSG came they took the situation into their hands. That was when we and the public finally got strength. We felt we were safe. They (General Gupta and his officers) took me aside and asked me what had happened and what the situation was like and how many civilians there were. They took a survey.


I really think the most valuable piece of work I did on those days was to get the crowd out that night.


Do you know that while we were doing all this, alongside we had to organise food, water and stay for the commandos and the evacuated people. The food etc was organised by the vibhag pramukhs (area chiefs), my seniors Arunbhai Dudwakar, Vikas Mayekar and others.

And all this was done without any funding. From our pockets. Everyone chipped in. We did not get any help from the government. At that point the government had just failed. We were minding the public, supporting the NSG, supporting the police and feeding all these people too.


But at the end Guptaji told me: 'We have held operations all over India, but the help we got in Colaba from you people and the public, we have not got anywhere else.' There were tears in their (NSG commandos') eyes. They said they would not forget this ever. And that was why they sent the letter.


The Muslims that I know also want to sacrifice themselves for their country. For 95 per cent of them this dharti (land) is as beloved to them as it is for us and they are ready to die for it. So many of them, who were with me, have the same josh (fervour). They told us: We are with you.

Why cannot the government put certain power in the hands of a few selected citizens who can handle responsibilities so we can have a better society? So we can deal with situations like this. We need a citizen force.

In countries like Israel they train the youth in defence. All I can do is throw a stone. But at least teach me to throw a stone better. We are all supposed to be better off for having studied and been educated. But even after being an educated person the only ability I have is to throw a stone?!


One month after 26/11 a ceremony was held at the chowk near Nariman House to honor the memory of slain NSG commando Gajendra Singh and to highlight the bravery of those who helped their neighbours and saved lives during those 60 hours. At the memorial Surve said, 'Pakistanwaalon yahan akar dekho. Yahi hai Hindustan. Yahi hai Mumbai. Yahi hai Colaba. Yahan Hindu, Musalman, Sikh, Isayi aur Parsi sab ek hain and sab terrorism ke khilaf ekjut hokar lad rahein hai (All of you in Pakistan, look here. This is Hindustan. This is Mumbai. This is Colaba. Here, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian and Parsi are unitedly fighting terrorism).'

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2009 01:16

Rangudu wrote:N^3,

One more reason for American khujli for Gul could be what B.Raman wrote a few years back. Gul is the ringleader in the "Videotape-e-Publish" business for Zawahiri and Osama. Remember that to date, no one has been able to explain how those tapes find their way from Al Qaeda types to the Al Jazeera Karachi office. If there is another 9/11 being planned, I can't imagine if Gul is not in on it. Gul has publicly warned several times that he fears being renditioned into some CIA camp and if the TSP govt facilitates such a thing, his people would reveal a lot of secrets and destroy the nation. That is why Gul hasn't been touched.



For Bollywood's take on this see the Hindi Movie "Mission Istanbul"

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2009 01:27

narayanan wrote:The trouble with celebrating that we have "resolutely" resisted the temptation to go to war despite the maiming and killing of so many innocents, is that this sounds a lot like celebrating cowardice. Also, WHY would anyone with any sense of self-preservation in TSP WANT war with India in 2009? I just don't have an answer that makes any sense, even pakisense.


N^3, However restraint with knowledge that one can take care of the problem is not cowardice.

The unfortunate thing is whether NDA or UPA or INC (except under Mrs Gandhi) have not give the people of India that feeling which is why there is discomfort now.

TSP wants war from the Kabul Embassy bombing. They left behind direct clues to lead the trail to them. Yet US and India chose not to follow the trail. I think there was serious cooperation after that. What I dont understand is the relaxing of th eguard after the attack was postponed. Why was MKN direlect in his duties. Any IPS guy of that era will commit hara kiri for that lapse. I think there was a Chankian mis-step of letting the guard down. And PMO was in it.


War with India will unite all the centrigugal factions that are working to unravel TSP. For recall TSP is "not India".

BTW, NPR had Siddharth Vardarajan yesterday. He was saying that the amount of monitoring of the cell phone call traffic was enormous and would point to US help in that. The fortitous thing was the five SIM cards bought in West Bengal. And the trail led to one after the other. He says India could not have the capability to monitor so seamlessley all the myriad forms the cell phone traffic took. So he is pointing to uncle ka hath.

The NAPr anchor just glossed over that.

What does that mean?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby kshirin » 09 Jan 2009 02:16

US seems to be getting closer to us.

US in talks with India for providing missile defence: Report Press Trust of India
Thursday, January 08, 2009, (London)

As part of their overall strategic partnership, the US and India are engaged in talks over sale of missile shield systems to help New Delhi face any nuclear threats from Pakistan and other "volatile" countries in the region, a media report here said today.

Quoting unnamed US diplomats, the Financial Times said the preliminary talks took place mainly at a scientific and technical level and American defence officials had conducted computer simulations with their Indian counterparts.

Noting that India is a partner of the US, the officials said "we want to provide it with whatever it needs to protect itself. This fits into the overall strategic partnership we are building."

The Indo-US relations blossomed in the recent years culminating in the signing of a bilateral civil nuclear cooperation agreement.

The report said India's need for greater protection against threats emanating from Pakistan and other volatile countries in the region was highlighted by an escalation in the Indo-Pak tensions in the aftermath of the Mumbai terror attacks.

It claimed that India also views China, with which it has a border dispute, as "a potential adversary."

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2009 02:27

Or we should worry that they are no longer confident of reining in the TSP nukes!

BTW, how useful are these long reaction time ATBMS when Lahore to Delhi is 10mins?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Chinmayanand » 09 Jan 2009 03:16

John Snow wrote:Ok our babus and their masters never learn.

Apparently in the hope that Khrushchev would restrain the Chinese from further border attacks, New Delhi instructed the Indian ambassador in Moscow to explain the Indian position to Khrushchev personally. Khrushchev was to be informed that a large number of notes sent to Peiping have gone unanswered and that ‘the Chinese have started an insidious propaganda against India among socialist and nonaligned countries’. In early September, Indian Foreign Secretary Dutt formally notified the Soviet and Polish ambassadors of New Delhi’s serious concern over Chinese border incursions. Dutt privately warned the ambassadors that if the incidents were to continue, New Delhi would be forced to re-appraise its policy of nonal ignment. These appeals and Khrushchev’s apparent concern for the USSR’s whole Indian policy ‘combined to spur the Russians into an effort to dissociate Moscow from Peiping’s actions against India.”[/quote]


[quote]“Nehru told his Cabinet that in mid-October the Soviet Union had informed him that the Russians had done ‘as m uch as they were able to’ in cautioning the Chinese to exercise restraint – that is, Nehru explained, the Russians were clearly not in a position to dictate to Peiking” (the italicised words are in direct quotes in the Study). The CIA had access to Cabinet papers. Further, “at an emergency cabinet meeting in late October Nehru indicated that border fighting did not constitute a threat to India. The strategic Chinese threat, he maintained, lies in the rapidly increasing industrial power base of China as well as the building of military bases in Tibet. The only Indian answer, he continued, is the most rapid possible development of the Indian economy to provide a national power base capable of resisting a possible eventual Chinese Communist military move. Nehru seemed to believe that the Chinese could not sustain any major drive across the ‘great land barrier’ and that the Chinese threat was only a long-term one.” Such was Nehru’s understanding of the realities of the modern world that the concept of a limited war, in vogue by then, never entered his mind. He was obsessed with an all-out-war, which he regarded as unthinkable and one which would lead to a world war.

Our Army is still in that mode of Dharma Yudh of 48 days with mobilization fbefore the war for a year with T-55, T-72, T-90 :rotfl:
:mrgreen:

Retired intelligence officials say Mr Singh is right. "We know the Americans had somebody inside. They knew about plans to test nuclear weapons and stopped us in the early 90s," said B Raman, who worked for the Research and Analysis Wing, India's external espionage agency, until 1994. "The question is, was the American information from a paid informant or from an official who liked to talk too much?"





The declassification of vital CIA and US State Department documents relating to South Asia reveals that the American spy agency (CIA) had a vital source in Mrs Gandhi’s cabinet. CIA’s ‘reliable source’ leaked India’s war objectives to the US, thereby compromising India’s plan to teach Pakistan a lasting lesson.

The details of Mrs Gandhi’s Cabinet briefings were also known to the CIA within hours. The minutes of the National Security Council meeting in Washington on December 6, 1971 (See page 672 of the document) sheds some light on this. The CIA director Richard Helms informed the meeting that: “We have a report which covers Madam Gandhi’s strategy as delivered to her Cabinet at 11 pm on December 3, 1971……The objectives in the west (Pakistan) are to destroy Pakistan’s armour and in the east to totally liberate the area.”

An information cable of the CIA dated December 7, 1971 (See page 686 of the document) reveals details of Mrs Gandhi’s briefing to her Cabinet on the India-Pakistan war. The information, attributed to a reliable source, includes India’s war objectives as reiterated by Mrs Gandhi. They were:

The quick liberation of Bangladesh
The incorporation into India of the southern part of Azad Kashmir for strategic rather than territorial reasons (because India has no desire to occupy any West Pakistan territory)
To destroy Pakistani military striking power so that it never attempts to challenge India in the future
The CIA report also added that the Indian Prime Minister had informed her Cabinet that India would not accept any ceasefire till Bangladesh was liberated.

Shuja Nawaz, a Pakistani political and strategic analyst, in his book Crossed Swords: Pakistan, Its Army, and the Wars Within, says: “Mrs Gandhi asked her defence chiefs to be ready to drive into Sialkot and then proceed as deep as possible even upto Rawalpindi with the aim of destroying Pakistan. The CIA managed to get actual minutes of the meeting and passed them to Washington urgently.”

The author, however, does not mention the source of the information he has revealed in his book.

In another disclosure, the CIA director informed the Washington Special Actions Group in a meeting on December 8, 1971 (See page 694 of the document) that Mrs Gandhi had told her Cabinet that “she had expected a more balanced view from the Chinese. She expressed the hope that the Chinese would not intervene physically in the north, but said that the Soviets had said the Chinese would be able to ‘rattle the sword.’ She also said that the Soviets have promised to counterbalance any such action.”

The disclosure of India’s war objectives by the mole resulted in an aggressive policy by the US to save West Pakistan from the Indian assault.

In a meeting with the Chinese Permanent Representative to the UN (Ambassador Huang Hua) on December 10, 1971 (See page 757 of the document), Henry Kissinger (President Nixons’s NSA) said, “we have an intelligence report according to which Mrs Gandhi told her cabinet that she wants to destroy the Pakistani army and air force and to annex this part of Kashmir, Azad Kashmir, and then to offer a ceasefire. This is what we believe must be prevented and this is why I have taken the liberty to ask for this meeting with the Ambassador.”

A memorandum (dated December 11, 1971) for President Nixon by Henry Kissinger (See page 765 of the document) states: “According to a reliable source Mrs Gandhi’s staff as of Thursday was still saying that, as soon as the situation in the East is settled, India will launch a major offensive against West Pakistan and hope that all major fighting will be over by the end of the month.”

It also goes on to say that D P Dhar (See page 765-766 of the document), a close confidante of Indira Gandhi and former Ambassador to then USSR, was in Moscow to sound out the Soviets on India’s intentions towards West Pakistan.

The United States administration was absolutely convinced - thanks to the reliable source they had in Prime Minister Gandhi’s Cabinet - that India had offensive plans for West Pakistan. President Nixon, in a telephonic conversation with his National Security Assistant Henry Kissinger on December 8, 1971, said that China could be a decisive factor in restraining the Indian advance.

“The Chinese thing I still think is a card in the hole there. I tell you a movement of even some Chinese toward that border could scare those goddamn Indians to death,” he told Kissinger (See page 706 of the document).

The US even threatened the Soviet Union with a major confrontation if they did not convince India to stop the offensive. In a back channel message to then US Ambassador in Pakistan on December 10, 1971 (See page 749-750 of the document), Kissinger asks him to tell Pak President Yahya Khan that the US has issued a strong demarche to the Soviets and warned them that the US will not permit any aggression against West Pakistan.

“President added that should Indian offensive be launched in the West, with Soviet acquiescence, a US/Soviet confrontation would ensue,” Kissinger’s message further adds.

There are numerous such details in the declassified documents which clearly point towards the US concern regarding the future of West Pakistan. It would not be too far fetched to say that had the crucial details of India’s war plans remained a secret, the history of South Asia would have been totally different. The US did everything (even supplied arms to Pakistan via Iran, Jordan) to save West Pakistan and they succeeded in the end.

This brings us to the most important question. Who leaked India’s war plans?

Interestingly, India was aware of the presence of a CIA mole who leaked the war plans. This was revealed in a meeting between then Foreign Minister Swaran Singh and top US officials in 1972. In the meeting, which took place on October 5, 1972, Singh told the US officials (See page 2, point 4 of the document) that Government of India (GOI) had its own sources and knew that CIA has been in contact with people in India in “abnormal ways”.

“GOI had information that proceedings of the Congress Working Committee were known to the US officials within two hours of meetings,” Singh told the US Secretary of State William Rogers.

Various accounts in the media have speculated about different names in the former PM’s Cabinet who might have worked for the CIA.

Jack Anderson, an American investigative journalist, reported about the existence of a CIA mole in the Indira Gandhi cabinet. Anderson got the Pulitzer Prize for national reporting in 1972 for his reports on US’ tilt away from India towards Pakistan during Bangladesh’s war for independence. Details regarding the mole and the information he passed on to the CIA can also be found in The Anderson Papers and The Man who kept the secrets (based on the life of CIA Director Richard Helms – Written by Thomas Powers).

Noted Indian lawyer A G Noorani, in his essay titled The CIA papers, published in the August 11-24, 2007 issue of fortnightly Frontline, states, “the mole in Mrs Gandhi’s Cabinet performed freely for the CIA all through 1971 till he was compromised. She did not sack him, however, ever forgiving of ‘human’ weakness. He survived.”

While referring to the declassified material and the above mentioned books, Noorani further says that the CIA had penetrated the Indian Government at every level. The agency received reports on “troops movements, logistics, strategy, and even some of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi’s secret conversations.”

“Was it not a matter of concern that her anxious queries to the Soviet Ambassador and his replies reached Henry Kissinger’s table while the war was on,” Noorani inquires.

While all the available information points towards a possible mole in Mrs Gandhi’s Cabinet during the 1971 war, we still don’t know his identity. I won’t speculate on the names here but the Indian Government should learn from the US and declassify old records.

Anuj, meanwhile, had filed an RTI application with the Prime Minister’s Office and the Ministry of External Affairs to seek information about the alleged mole in Mrs Gandhi’s Cabinet. But as always, the request has been turned down.

Withholding all the information since independence by giving lame excuses that declassifying it might affect India’s foreign relations with other countries is not acceptable. The nation has a right to know the information surrounding such an important episode.



IG was the man, She is missed during this Mumbai Humiliation.


Bottomline is, despite knowing it all,CIA failed to save pukiland from giving birth to bangla land , and hence Unkil was powerless in front of Indira's India.Shame on USA...Whats common between americans and whores...they are loyal to none....they both are rented with money...and they like rivalry between their customers...gets them more mullah :rotfl:

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2009 03:35

Also she made them lose face by stopping on Dec 16th for it showed that their 'intel' was faulty!

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Amber G. » 09 Jan 2009 03:54

Learnings from Mumbai terror attack ...
NYPD Eyes Disrupting Cell Phones in Event of Terrorist Attack
The New York Police Department is looking for ways to disrupt cell phone calls and other forms of electronic communication among terrorists in the event of another terror attack in New York, Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly says.

The need to disrupt communications is one of several conclusions that the NYPD has drawn from studying the November attack in Mumbai, India, a three-day rampage by machine gun and grenade-wielding Islamic militants in which at least 165 people were killed and 304 were wounded.
Kelly is scheduled to discuss this and other "lessons learned" in testimony Thursday before the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. A draft copy of his statement was shared with FOX News in advance of his appearance.

Kelly stressed the need for law enforcement to be able to disrupt cell phone calls and other communications during an attack, pointing to threats posed by the media when they disclose law enforcement tactics during live coverage that can get passed back to the attackers.

Kelly says that in the Mumbai attack, the terrorists' handlers used cell phones and other portable communications devices to order the killing of hostages and to adjust other tactics while the attacks were underway.

It's not clear from his testimony whether the NYPD has the means to disrupt electronic communications for a small group of terrorists without shutting down cell phone service to a large part of Manhattan.

The NYPD has also been at odds with the Justice Department over its attempt to get the federal government to loosen up a law governing electronic surveillance. Under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, warrants must be obtained to begin electronic monitoring of terror suspects, and the requests go through a multi-layered vetting process by the FBI and the Justice Department. Kelly is asking for these agencies to expedite NYPD's requests to be able to combat fast-moving terror situations.

Kelly's testimony also warns that although New York has adopted the most robust counterterrorism programs of any city in the nation and has received considerable assistance from the Coast Guard, police still "cannot fully protect New York's harbor" given the vast amount of uninspected cargo that enters the Port of New York and New Jersey each day.

As a result, Kelly says he has continued to highlight the "urgent need" for better port and maritime security. "We are mindful that the attackers approached Mumbai from the water," his statement reads.

The 36,000-member NYPD, the nation's largest city police force, has already changed some procedures and conducted new drills in response to vulnerabilities identified by a three-member NYPD counterterrorism team that visited Mumbai three days after the attack in India's financial center ended. The three senior officers, members of the department's program that stations detectives in 11 cities overseas, toured Mumbai's crime scenes, took photographs and asked questions of their Indian police counterparts.

A key observation, Kelly says, was that the attackers seemed more familiar with the hotels they assaulted than the police who were called in to respond.

As a result, Kelly says, the NYPD began touring several major New York hotels in early December, "documenting the walkthroughs on video camera, filming entrances and exits, lobbies, unoccupied guest rooms, and banquet halls." The videos will be used as "training tools" for other officers, he says.

Another change, initially reported by The New York Post, is the decision to ensure that more police officers are trained to use machine guns and other heavy weapons. In mid-December, for the first time, recruits at the police academy received basic instruction in the operating systems of three types of heavy weapons. Prior to this, the testimony says, only the Police Department's Emergency Service Unit was given such training. Now it will become a standard feature at the police academy.

On Dec. 5, the NYPD also conducted two exercises -- a tactical drill for Emergency Service Unit officers and a tabletop exercise for commanders. Both scenarios were based on the attacks in Mumbai, Kelly says.

Since the 9/11 attacks, New York City has invested heavily in counterterrorism, devoting some 1,000 officers to the effort. The department has installed advanced radiation detection devices at all points of access to the city's five boroughs, including roads, bridges, tunnels and waterways.

Through its Operation Nexus, NYPD detectives have visited thousands of the companies that terrorists might seek to exploit, Kelly says, including truck rental companies and hotels. "We let them know what to look for and what to do if they observe suspicious behavior," he says.


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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby enqyoob » 09 Jan 2009 04:15

The NAPr anchor just glossed over that. What does that mean?


That there is No Such Agency and the US has No Recording Office to monitor such huge numbers of communications. 8)

Actually this attack showed that there is a radical alternative to the usual American SOP of clearing everybody from the scene, sanitizing the area and disrupting all C^3. It would have made no difference. Did the terrorists actually benefit from having the Major General tell them to kill the hostages? If they had been completely autonomous, I think they would have done MORE damage, not less, because they would have just kept on killing until killed, not wasted time trying to establish communications and waiting for orders. It is true that the terrorists got info guiding them to "throw a couple of grenades out at the Navy and police" but that did not take a whole lot of brains either- they had to look out the window to see them.

The massive, out-of-control chaos outside the terrorist-hit buildings was uniquely Indian.The terrorists clearly had no plan for multiplying the damage by mass-murdering the crowds outside, which shows that the planners were dumbass pakis again.

OTOH, with the cellphone traffic blanked out, there would have been no way of tracking down the puppeteers, as has been done in most attacks in India.

Note that all the blocked cellphones in the world would not have stopped Atta &Co from communicating with "Mustafa Ahmed" at the ISI in Dubai the day before the attack - and it just means that the trail got cold. If the terrorists thought they could use cellphones from the air, they may have called Musharraf and Mehmood Ahmed direct from Flight 93 (not that the oiseules in DupliCity would not have attacked Iraq instead of nuking Pakistan then either).

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby RajaJi » 09 Jan 2009 04:43

{If you have nothing to post except to demonstrate a foul mouth, kindly consider NOT posting? I am sure those denied the pleasure of reading your wit can survive it with some effort, but your posting rights won't survive any more such posts.}
Last edited by enqyoob on 09 Jan 2009 04:51, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: gratuitous obscenity directed at elected leaders

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Karna_A » 09 Jan 2009 04:57

Unkil is after Gul cause among other reasons Gul has recommended Nuking US Naval fleet in an interview. That's the only big Unkil target in TSPA missile ranges. If you google enough you can find that interview. It was shortly after 9/11.
He is as much a friend of India as Nazis were to jews. It's true he hates Unkil more than India, but that's like saying Nazis liked French jews more than Polish Jews.
Rangudu wrote:N^3,

One more reason for American khujli for Gul could be what B.Raman wrote a few years back. Gul is the ringleader in the "Videotape-e-Publish" business for Zawahiri and Osama. Remember that to date, no one has been able to explain how those tapes find their way from Al Qaeda types to the Al Jazeera Karachi office. If there is another 9/11 being planned, I can't imagine if Gul is not in on it. Gul has publicly warned several times that he fears being renditioned into some CIA camp and if the TSP govt facilitates such a thing, his people would reveal a lot of secrets and destroy the nation. That is why Gul hasn't been touched.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby enqyoob » 09 Jan 2009 04:59

HEY! Any chance of locating this url, please? I need it in an article. Thanks.

Gul has recommended Nuking US Naval fleet in an interview.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Karna_A » 09 Jan 2009 05:04

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... er789.html
Paper above from B raman has a different General's name but Gul has said the same thing.

They are all same and probably have same slush fund accounts:
http://globalgeopolitics.net/wordpress/ ... f-capital/
Adds Hassan Abbas, a former police officer, “NAB’s hands were tied in investigating the alleged corruption of senior military officers, such as Generals Aslam Beg, Hamid Gul, Zahid Ali Akbar, Talat Masood, Saeed Qadir and Farrukh Khan, and Air Marshals Anwar Shamim and Abbas Khattak. Abbas worked in the National Accountability Bureau (NAB) during the early days of Musharraf regime. He gives a graphic account of the prevailing milieu in his highly readable book “Pakistan’s `Drift into Extremism”.

A shining example of `Pakistan’s Military Inc’ is ventures like the Varan Transport Company. Owned by the daughter of the former head of the intelligence agency, ISI, Lt. Gen. (retd) Hamid Gul, the company show cases how a military-oriented patronage system benefits its clients. “Varan was given preferential access to bus routes between the twin cities of Islamabad and Rawalpindi, and the company’s management and drivers behaved with impunity,” says Ayesha Siddiqi.



Gen.(retd) Zahid Ali Akbar: "If America bombed Pakistan, then Pakistan should threaten the USA with a nuclear strike on its naval fleet nearest to Pakistan. If too many body bags reached America, the public there would reject Bush and elect a Democratic President who may firmly take the US back to the UN. If I were in Saddam's shoes, I would have made chemical weapons. If I were Gen.Musharraf, I would make a missile with a 2000-mile range so as to reach Israel." ("Khabrain")

narayanan wrote:HEY! Any chance of locating this url, please? I need it in an article. Thanks.

Gul has recommended Nuking US Naval fleet in an interview.
Last edited by Karna_A on 09 Jan 2009 05:28, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby JwalaMukhi » 09 Jan 2009 05:15

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2B ... 23870.html
Cold-blooded calls

EXCERPTS of the telephone calls to the gunmen, made public on Wednesday:

At the Oberoi Trident

# Caller 1: 'Brother Abdul. The media is comparing your action to 9/11. One senior police officer has been killed.'

# Gunman 1: 'We are on the 10th, 11th floor. We have five hostages.'

# Caller 2: 'Everything is being recorded by the media. Inflict the maximum damage. Keep fighting. Don't be taken alive.'

# Caller 1: 'Kill all hostages, except the two Muslims. Keep your phone switched on so that we can hear the gunfire.'

# Gunman 2: 'We have three foreigners, including women. From Singapore and China.'

# Caller 1: 'Kill them.'

(Voices of the gunmen directing hostages to stand in a line, and telling the two Muslims to stand aside. Sounds of gunfire. Cheering.)

At Hotel Taj Mahal

# Caller: 'How many hostages do you have?'

# Gunman: 'We have one from Belgium. We have killed him. There was one chap from Bangalore. He could be controlled only with a lot of effort.'

# Caller: 'I hope there is no Muslim among them?'

# Gunman: 'No, none.'

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2009 05:19

SudeepJ wrote

I am not sure if this has been posted already. Its a gripping account of how a local Shiv Sena Shakha Pramukh helped with the NSG operations. It also comes through very clearly how the Nariman house locality was completely left to its own devices by the Mumbai Police.

http://specials.rediff.com/news/2009/ja ... -house.htm



After Karakre was killed there was command breakdown in Mumbai Police this just illustrates it. Senior officers were hiding. And aam pandus were left to fend for themselves.

I wonder if they really thought D-Company was after the Mumbai Police and locked down?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby enqyoob » 09 Jan 2009 05:25

KA:

Thanks!

FlameFaceji 8) :

Seriously, there was one called ABDUL? :rotfl:

For the janata here, I take credit for the original designation of "Abdul Bin Kabul" the generic terrorist. The "Abdul" was based on the memory of my dear buddy from kindergarten, who was a pleasant little guy (compared to most of his classmates including moi) and was the patient target of much unkind "humor" from his "friends".

Abdul unfortunately got hit by a tire that came loose from a lorry (or the blast from a tire blowout, which would have been enough to send him flying a long way) on a mountain road in our neighborhood (no it was not Afghanistan) and was seriously injured when he was walking to school in the 2nd grade. (The tire diameter was > Abdul's height)

I don't think we saw him in our class after that.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby RajaJi » 09 Jan 2009 05:55

RajaJi wrote:{If you have nothing to post except to demonstrate a foul mouth, kindly consider NOT posting? I am sure those denied the pleasure of reading your wit can survive it with some effort, but your posting rights won't survive any more such posts.}



I was not trying to be a foulmouth, i was just using the same anology as i had quoted from durgesh's above post. All i meant was that instead of begging in front of US it would be better if India had a similar policy as Israel does in the US. There is a powerful Israely lobby in the US and also alot of the government officials there hold dual citizenships of both US and Israel and are of jewish faith and thus are critical in shaping US opinion and aid to Israel. For example, Donald Rumsfeld was jewish, Condoleza Rice (black jew), Paul Wolfowitz, amongst the many others (too many too list here). And I'm sure they make a big contribution to US Israel policy. If we had similar number of Indo Americans lobbying and participating in the political scene in Washington, I'm sure it would make a great difference of how US views India.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby RajaJi » 09 Jan 2009 06:10

Just to let the moderators and fellow forum members know, this will be my last post here, i joined these forums being a staunch Hindustani patriot who has immense love for his motherland, but this forum has lot of red tape and too much beauracracy just like the past, present, and future state of India. One is discouraged to speak his/her mind and be truthful in what they truely think of the matters being discussed. {No, you were warned not to post juvenile obscenities and stink up a serious discussion, but your reaction is to choose to whine about that and throw bratty tantrums instead. Q.E.D. Do enjoy growing up and becoming civilized at some time in the future and being allowed to participate in grown-up society. 'Bye!}
Last edited by enqyoob on 09 Jan 2009 07:09, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: correcting terminologically inexactitudinal whining and tantrums

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Chellaram » 09 Jan 2009 06:22

RajaJi wrote:Just to let the moderators and fellow forum members know, this will be my last post here, i joined these forums being a staunch Hindustani patriot who has immense love for his motherland, but this forum has lot of red tape and too much beauracracy just like the past, present, and future state of India. One is discouraged to speak his/her mind and be truthful in what they truely think of the matters being discussed. That is not what a forum should be, forums are about free exchange of ideas and sharing your true views, not about saying what is politically correct like what's being done in India at this moment at the cost of the lives of the poor helpless citizens. So, goodbye fellow Indians, Aloha, Jai Hind! Please, moderators close my account as i wish not to post in this forums any longer. thanks in advance.


wrong thread, sir. this belongs in the thread for whines :P

here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4631

joking aside, please dont stop sharing your opinion on these forums. some of us dont post much, but we like reading all the different viewpoints expressed on here...
Last edited by Chellaram on 09 Jan 2009 06:32, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Yogeshwar » 09 Jan 2009 06:25

RajaJi Tum ko dil lagane ki saza hai! ............

SAI HO NARA!

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby enqyoob » 09 Jan 2009 06:54

We will try our best to survive this terrible loss.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby shiv » 09 Jan 2009 06:55

narayanan wrote:HEY! Any chance of locating this url, please? I need it in an article. Thanks.

Gul has recommended Nuking US Naval fleet in an interview.


Also if anyone has heard this is a Hamid Gul interview on YouTube please point me to the url

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby James B » 09 Jan 2009 07:37

Here is an interesting nugget about Hamid Gul as to why he turned against America as told by him in an interview

Q: What turned you against America?

A: Betrayals and broken promises and what was done to my army career.

Q: And what was that?

A: President Ishaq Khan, who succeeded Zia ul-Haq after his plane was blown out of the sky, wanted to appoint me chief of staff, the highest position in the Pakistani army. The U.S., which by then had clipped ISI's wings, also blocked my promotion by informing the president I was unacceptable. So I was moved to a corps commander position. As ISI director, I held the whole Mujahideen movement in the palm of my hands. We were all pro-American. But then America left us in the lurch and everything went to pieces, including Afghanistan.

The U.S. pushed for a broad-based Afghan government of seven factions and then waved goodbye. Even in the best of democracies, a broad-based coalition does not work. So we quickly had seven jokers in Kabul interested in only one thing -- jockeying for power. The gunplay quickly followed, which led to the creation of Taliban, the students of the original Mujahideen, who decided to put an end to it.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby enqyoob » 09 Jan 2009 07:46

url, please?


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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby SSridhar » 09 Jan 2009 08:53

Looks like there has been a lot of hair splitting overnight about whether Hamid Gul & the US are our enemies or friends. What a wasteful discussion. Hamid Gul means ill for our country. How can he be anything else ? He is the Chief Strategist, Planner and Spokesman of the Taliban. OTOH, the US, as a nation that practises the art of realpolitik very well, may assume different roles at different times. And, that is perfectly valid. The US will want to keep us in check, but never destroy us the way Pakistan has been attempting for 61 years now. It is our capacity to manage that relationship to maximize the benefits for our country that matters. TSP, Taliban, Hamid Gul, Asad Durrani, Mirza Aslam Beg, Kiyani, Pasha, Ziad Hamid, Madam, Shauqat Qadir, Ejaz Haider, Marvi Memon, Nasim Zehra and all those creatures that come out of the woodworks have a single point agenda which is to destroy Bharat. What are we discussing here ?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby lakshmikanth » 09 Jan 2009 09:35

AoA! from the above discussions I get the following strategic gems :).
Can the Garus confirm the following:

1) TSPA and Chipandas have a discussion on how much India is "harming" them. TSPA is bothered about the surge and is sad that power and Kashmir is slipping away and the unkil-drones and Tali-zombies are getting them on the east side. Chipandas worry that Indian economy and power projections are going out of hands. TSPA says to Chipanda masters "Dont worry Birathers... we will take care of the situation for you". But you gotta take care of the fallout.

2) TSPA engages Harami Gul and his slaves in LeT who were molested by him when they were babies.

3) The attack is planned and timed and an agreement with Chipanda is reached that if ever India attacks Porkistan, Chipandas will eat up eastern side of the border and launch N weapons for porkis if necessary

4) Mumbai happens

5) Porkis start war cries, move troops westwards, gets phone call from Pranab and says Sukhoi violated airspace.

6) Threat of N-weapons repeatedly mentioned.

The above speculation can and SHOULD be confirmed by satellite pics of Chipanda troop movements before and after mumbai... I am sure Unkill has this info.. I hope that our Desi Babus and the IA/IAF has the same as well.

I am for one glad that our leaders were impotent enough not to go ahead with militiary action... However what remains to be seen is how they are going to strategize for the future.

More interestingly even after hitting Indian Elite and DIEs and also Amrikhans and al-Brits and more importantly Yehudis there was no military buildup or even cold start. I am sure that they are wondering what in the world should they do to get India attack Porkis militarily so that chipandas and porkis can finish off india :)

unkil more or less seems like a mute spectator in all this.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby surinder » 09 Jan 2009 10:04

I am Jonny come late, but I listened to the cell phone call which the Pakistani Terrorist made from the Chabad House to the TV station. (Thanks for the link, guys.) That is definitely not Indian accent, but it is not your mainstream Punjabi accent either. It seems to have a Pashtun touch to it. Most likely it looks like someone from those areas of Punjab which border NWFP, areas like Dera Ghazi Khan or Dera Ismail Khan. Pakis from areas closer to Radliffe line do not talk like this.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby chetak » 09 Jan 2009 12:02

Thackeray has a point.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/148754/No-I ... keray.html

No Indian should demand pardon for Kasab: Thackeray

T N Raghunatha | Mumbai

Taking an exception to the sympathetic attitude adopted towards the Pakistani terrorist Mohammed Ajmal Mohammed Amir Iman alias Kasab by the slain ATS chief Hemant Karkare's wife and her younger daughter, Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray on Thursday said that no Indian should take a stand that Kasab be pardoned and given opportunity to reform himself.

Alluding to statements made by slain Karkare's wife Kavita in a recent television interview, the Sena chief lamented that the late ATS chief's family members -- by taking such a "humanitarian" view of Kasab -- had tried to be different, while the fact remained that the family members of other 16 police personnel killed in the 26/11 attack were rooting for the immediate hanging of the lone arrest terrorist.

"Karkare family members may have a different opinion about Kasab. But, they should realise that Kasab and his nine accomplices involved in 26/11 attack did not just kill Karkare. But they also killed 16 policemen and nearly 200 people during the attack on Mumbai. Theirs was a crime against nation. That being the case, we have to consider as to what the nation has to say (rather than taking cognisance of late Kakare's family members say)," Thackeray said, in an editorial published in the Shiv Sena's official mouth-piece "Saamna".

The Sena chief's editorial comment was sparked by a statement made by Kavita Karkare about the views expressed by her younger daughter, who has {none of the idiot papparazzi's or this forum's business}. "She was very close to her father so she was extremely depressed. My elder daughter asked her; should Kasab get harsh punishment? She immediately reacted that Kasab is only 21-years-old, so we should try and change his ideology and his thoughts. He should be given opportunities so that he can change," Kavita Karkare had said in her interview.

In this context, the Sena chief referred to the clemency plea for Nalini - who was sentenced to death in the Rajiv Gandhi assassination case - made by the slain Prime Minister's daughter Priyanka Gandhi. "That was her personal view. Because Nailini did not just kill her father but also the Prime Minister of the country. Along with the late Prime Minister, 90 others were also killed. Tell me who will compensate for the trauma undergone by the family members of those 90 people killed," Thackeray asked. Describing junior police official Tukaram Omble as the "real braveheart" (in the 26/11 attack) who managed to capture Kasab alive despite many bullet wounds in his body, the Sena chief referred to the statement made by slain Omble daughter, who has said: "You better hang Kasab. Only such punishment will bring peace to the souls of 16 police personnel killed in the 26/11 Mumbai attack." Thackeray advised slain Karkare's daughter to meet late Omble's daughter and learn a lesson or two from the latter. "What is happening now is rather sad. At a time when there is a clamour among a section of people for Afzal Guru being shown clemency. Same thing is happening in the case of Kasab, even before a charge-sheet is filed against him the 26/11 case.

Let slain Karkare's daughter go and meet late Omble's daughter. She is an Indian and she lives in Police Lane at Worli," the Sena chief said. The Sena chief criticised the Karkare-led ATS saying that it was more pre-occupied with Malegaon blasts, than making efforts to prevent the 26/11 Mumbai attack. "Acting under pressure from the Government which was out to appease the Muslims, the Karkare-headed ATS invested time and energy in targeting the Hindu outfits,”he said. The Sena chief signed off saying: "We respect the martyrdom of Karkare.”

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby manjgu » 09 Jan 2009 13:30

US ambassador to Pak demands sacked PAki NSA be reinstated...


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