Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

brihaspati
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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby brihaspati » 16 Jan 2009 22:05

Further, if one goes by the threads on the BR, the armed forces have many gaps. Let us close those gaps so that we are totally in command!! But then, I will confess that while the BR members give the impression that they know all, I don't!


If there are gaps they should be filled. But if the army feels that there are gaps, it must have spoken of this to the GOI. If the GOI hasn't taken any action, the army cannot do anything. Because it is "oh-so-secret" the GOI has no obligation to bring it to the electorate. Which implies that the electorate does not need to consider it as an issue to assess the GOI on. Which means the gap can never be filled.

If democracy in Pakistan takes hold, the power of the Army is reduced. That should be the aim.

Assuming, that Pakistani population in general and not the elite few - realize what democracy is, and want democracy too. Then again, given their current brainwashing, the expression of popular will through democracy, have to be assumed to result in something milder or better than the Islamic extremism now projected by the state. Democracy and popular will in Iran resulted in a magnificient quantum leap in human rights and modern principles of human values or social practices. Popular will expressed Iran also showed a remarkable progress in controlling jingoist passions aginst neighbours as evidenced in the Iran-Iraq war.

I had once put on BR the rationale of the various reasons why Pakistan is up a gum tree with its sub nationalism and how the Mohajirs have used Islam to cut down the 'refugee in our midst' attitude of the others because the Mohajirs were the smart ones who took over Pakistan! Why do you think Musharraf is so belligerent and up front? He is is a Mohajir and so he has to prove that he is more loyal than the King himself!

There is one significant difference between India and Pakistan in the existing bases of nationalism, which we conveniently overlook. In India, here we see BR split down the middle into pro-war/anti-war schools. This is the same picture in outside society. Even the media is sort of split between military action /reprisals. No such indication from Pakistan - not a single voice that urges Pakistan gov restraint, not go for bellicose war-mongering - none at all. This is a dangerous self-delusion in us that because we want to see divisions, those divisions will really be relevant for the outcome we want. There can be sub-nationalisms, but will that subnationalism actually be relevant for attitudes towards an entity seen as enemy of Islam - the overall supreme affiliation and basis for Pakistani nationalism, and an enemy which is seen as a historical slave that escaped due to foreign intervention - worth doing everything to reconquer and re-enslave - that is the question.
And so it goes on!
One has to use his brains and not his anger!

Agreed. As long as the brains do not get so cold as to be stored dead in a cold-storage. Or becomes an excuse never to take any action as long as individual self, or whatever is thought to belong to this self remains unscratched.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby BijuShet » 16 Jan 2009 22:07

RayC wrote:...
For those who feel that war is the only option, they should understand that war is not a knee jerk option! Sadly, FM Maneckshaw is no more. He would have explained better!
...

Raysaar many here including me, feel war is the only viable option left for GoI. It has tried all other options and seen these efforts fail on account of more powerful outside players running interference with all of GoI moves. The war option will force a change in behavior of the sideline major players as they will be forced to pick sides or stay neutral. In 1971 when war began, these players had to choose either to fight India or enjoy the show from the sidelines. they stayed neutral, all the while making loud noises and threatening gestures but without actually shooting at us. Some may think that I am a blood thirsty Hindu zealot who does not understand the true cost of war, let me assure you that I comprehend the cost in human misery and yet I prescribe war with Pakistan.

Having said that war is the only viable option I do believe we must exercise this option with utmost care and diligence. If it takes us 2 years to prepare for war then so be it. But at the end of 2 years we must not back out and seek an amiable short term solution without actually fighting the enemy. These short term solutions cost us dear in the long run.

In the past we have never fully cleaned the mess next door by eliminating their strength to fight (and some of it may be due to our inherent weaknesses at the time). If India were to execute its own shock an awe where every asset of TSPA were completely disabled then I ask you whether they will ever recover from it. Since you know more about the armed forces than I do, I would like to pose a question to you. If the Indian army during the course of war permanently disabled every piece of machinery that the TSPA operates, will TSPA ever regain its strength to rise up again? By machinery I mean every truck, jeep, weapon (including small arms, rifles etc), ordnance factories, bases, naval ships and aircrafts i.e. anything tangible other than a lathi. After this, if TSPA needs to rise up again they would need to start from scratch and that would force them to steal the last piece of bread from their own to buy the gun.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby ramana » 16 Jan 2009 22:15

ramana wrote:
sum wrote:
The ISI agent had passed on information like mobilisation of 300 army personnel to border and movement of Agni missiles in the aftermath of Mumbai attack.

:shock:
The Agnis were/are mobilised? I didn't expect our peace-loving,dove sending PM tro sanction such "dastardly" acts against long lost brothers!!!

Can we get a detailed timeline please on this report? When was the chap arrested? What time frame is he talking about?

Thanks, ramana



Answering my own questions:

ISI agent was tracking force mobilisation: SSP Meerut
12 Jan 2009, 2113 hrs IST, PTI
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
MEERUT: Suspected ISI agent Amir Ahmed arrested from the city on Saturday {i.e is on 10 jan., 2009} was assigned by his bosses to keep track of the movement of army from Cantonment here and he was in regular contact with officers of Pakistan's spy agency, a police officer said on Monday.

After obtaining a fake passport under the name Bhura from Barielly, Amir had informed the Shaharanpur police that the ISI was trying to "buy" him to pass on vital inputs in return for cash in 2007, SSP Raghubir Lal said.

He had told the police that he was asked to give information on Sarsava Air Force Base at Saharanpur on a "trial basis" before recruiting him to the ISI network. The police had no means of knowing that Amir was trying to escape surveillance.

In the wake of a strained relationship between India and Pakistan and the possible deployment of forces along the border, Amir was asked to keep an eye on force mobilisation from here. {i.e. Meerut} The police have identified the two phone numbers that he used to make calls from and pass on information. He had called ISI officer Farukh alias Tyyab 41 times, the officer told reporters after quizzing him.

"The two mobile phone numbers are under surveillance," he added. He had crossed the border four times since his coming here in 1999 and the latest visit to home{i.e. TSP} was in 2007, when he remained there for 25 days.

The ISI agent had passed on information like mobilisation of 300 army personnel to border and movement of Agni missiles in the aftermath of Mumbai attack. Ahmed, who was very good in Hindi and English, used to make calls to Karachi, Lahore and the UK, the SSP said.
{So there are controllers in UK?}

The ISI had also secured an email ID for him. At the time of the arrest, hand-drawn maps of army units in Dehradun and Meerut, a four-page classified document containing information on anti-tank guided missile and an eight-page document on radio communication brigaded mortar shoot were recovered from him. :?:

The Meerut police had received intelligence inputs that some youths in western Uttar Pradesh had contacts with Pakistan's ISI and had zeroed in on Amir.
{Good for the follow-up action!}
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ISI_ ... 969586.cms



Ok. The facts from this story are:
Reports of Army movements from Meerut were made to TSP by their agent who was arrested maybe on basis of intercepts.

Question are there reports of consultations or diplomatic traffic between Delhi and DC regarding this in late December 2008?

Please go back and see the statements and rhetoric between DC and Delhi in this period.

My conjecture is TSP panicked (with his reports and maybe other info) and told uncle who pressured Delhi while throwing sops of action to be taken by TSP, which is now backtracking. This pressure tipped of the intel folks that there was traffic from Meerut area and that led to this chap being arrested.

That is the connecting the dots we can do.
If this is true India first has to clean internal security first to ensure operational secrecy. Or not be mindful of international pressure.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby John Snow » 16 Jan 2009 23:54

Run for the Border.


Dawood Bhai for PM (India)

Think out of the box.

It will slove terrorism problem in jiffy. Make corruption obsolete. Make local Indian PM. Bring peace between India and Pakistan instamatically. Aviod War, improve economy, make BSF and Army redundant, Peace and Joy to the world. Dawood the Saviour PBUH
(more detailed reasonings to follow)

Jai Hind(sight)

ramana
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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby ramana » 16 Jan 2009 23:59

Very short sighted. The whole issue is about Dar-ul-Islam and Dar-ul-Harb. With DI in charge it will regain the earlier status. And with authority of the Constitution, he will proceed to sunnify everyone. So to solve short problem dont invite long term trouble.

Even if joking please consider before posting.

Thanks, ramana

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby enqyoob » 17 Jan 2009 00:01

RayC: I understand the logic that says: Let us race on ahead, and set our eyes on a much bigger league. Let us not allow these minor hindrances to slow us down.

But.... the cost is that we end up devaluing Indians. The GOI is effectively showing that there IS NO cost to killing innocent Indians. No Pakistani is going to hang (OK, maybe Imran Kasab will die in an "encounter" one of these days..). No Pakistani military officer will suffer, and Pakistan will pay no price.

The terrorists will surely "respond" - by killing more Indians in ever more horrible attacks. There is no way that India can prevent those 100%.

What consolation is a 10% rise in GDP, to the mother or widow of a terrorism victim? How many more thousands of innocents must be condemned to die violently, at the altar of our "progress"?

Even granting that Indian economic progress is all-important, will India advance more if we sell our souls and bend our knees to terrorism and its sponsors (in Pakistan and in the US/UK since they pay the bills of the Paki govt), or if we show the steel and show that we CARE for the lives of Indians?

Will Brand India be "Democracy That Cares For People"? or "Wimps who will sell their mothers and get whipped as long as they get paid a few paise"?

Finally, to go to the cynical extreme, so what if the city centers of the top 5 Indian cities get leveled in a war that also solves the Pakistan Problem? Tokyo, Berlin, Frankfurt, Atlanta, Moscow, Stalingrad and even Hiroshima and Nagasaki have come back up quite well, and the rebuilt cities are a lot more functional than the old ones. Why is a war so bad if it solves the Pakistan Problem permanently?

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby enqyoob » 17 Jan 2009 00:03

Snowji:

Pakistan will protest, because now all Indians will be working for Dawood Ibrahim, so India will corner the "IT" market. Just in time too - the other "IT" seems in a 'spot of bother'.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2009 00:04

To add to N^3's thoughts, the whole financial mess was due to neglecting the 'little" problem of sub-prime mortgages while racing ahead to be the economy of 22nd century.

My firm belief is both little and big problems have to be taken care of.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby shyamd » 17 Jan 2009 00:50

Okay folks, this is debka's take on the aftermath of the attacks. It exposes again the incompetence of MMS, and is from the Israeli perspective. The article is quite old now, I think roughly a month, but nevertheless throws up different views on the attack that are quite credible and do make sense.

Pakistan's ISI Drags India into Afghan-Pakistan Imbroglio to Disrupt Obama's Plans


The rogue elements of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence service are more than an agency within an agency; during the regime transition period in Islamabad, they grew into a state within a state. Their covert give-and-take intrigues with Al Qaeda, associated jihadi groups and Taliban have empowered them and transformed them into the covert prime movers in the Afghan war and the affairs of the subcontinent.

By sending Lashkar e-Taibe terrorists on a rampage in Mumbai, they managed to manipulate India and Pakistan close to an armed confrontation and generate a crisis for testing the incoming US president Barack Obama before he sits down in the Oval Office in January.

The two heavyweights Washington sent over Wednesday, Dec. 3 to hold India and Pakistan back from a military showdown found their mission doomed from the start. The ground was already burning.

In Delhi, US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice saw Indian intelligence input showing that fresh rounds of Islamist Pakistan-based terror were on the way – first against three international airports, Delhi, Bangalore and Chennai, by infiltrators originating from Pakistani or Afghanistan; next focusing on American, British and Israeli tourists at popular resorts like Goa and Puna in the New Year holiday season.

In Islamabad, Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, saw a president, Asif Ali Zardari, who had not yet found his feet and certainly lacked the clout to round up the list of 20 ISI-protected suspects handed him by New Delhi for extradition.



Spiking Obama's plans for Afghanistan troop surge


Focusing on India as the injured party, Washington had prepared to underpin the Rice-Mullen mission by leaks to the media showing that New Delhi had been forewarned as early as mid-October about the impending attacks on Mumbai but neglected to alert Mumbai's security authority and the Indian Navy to a potential attack "from the sea against hotels and business centers in Mumbai."

(More about how this intelligence collaboration worked in a separate article in this issue.)

Prime minister Manmohan Singh was being warned that if he continued on the path of military brinkmanship, Washington would release another spate of embarrassing leaks exposing his government's incompetence.

The American plan did not work. The rogue ISI elements, which none of our counter-terror sources in Washington, London, New Delhi or Jerusalem doubts was behind the attack, had progressed too far toward their goals to be stopped.

They enumerate six:

1. To change the course of the Afghan war by spiking Obama's plans for sending more troops to Afghanistan and helping to settle the quarrels dividing India and Pakistan. The US president-elect hoped those steps would ease the military obstacles confronting NATO forces in Afghanistan and pave the way to resolving the Afghan and Kashmir conflicts, thus robbing al Qaeda and Taliban of victory.

2. To bring the long-simmering Indian-Pakistani issues to boiling point: President Zardari and prime minister Yousuf Raza Gilani would then have to divert the 100,000 Pakistani soldiers fighting al Qaeda and Taliban in the tribal border areas with Afghanistan to the Indian frontier, as Zardari threatened to do this week.

3. Once Pakistani military pressure was lifted from the al Qaeda and Taliban sanctuaries in the tribal lands, they could concentrate wholly on bludgeoning American and NATO forces in Afghanistan and getting set for a major spring offensive in April 2009.



Obama national security team back to drawing board

The Mumbai terrorist rampage has altered the state of play by dragging India into the imbroglio. The onus is now on the incoming US administration's national security team – secretary of state Hillary Clinton, defense secretary Robert Gates and the next national security adviser Gen. James Jones – to come up with a new plan to defeat the radical Islamist bloc and the ISI's schemes. This task has evaded the Bush administration for eight years.

4. Another goal of ISI schemers was to deepen the rift between the Pakistani president and prime minister and the army command to undermine and eventually unseat president Zardari.

5. By the violence they staged in Mumbai, ISI elements sought to prove to their jihadist allies that nothing in their close collaboration had changed as a result of a change of command at the top of the intelligence service. Following a demand from Washington, Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha was appointed ISI head and four regional department heads were replaced.

The rogue elements in Pakistani elements stood by their deal to support al Qaeda and Taliban in Afghanistan as long as they backed ISI operations against India, such as the suicide attack Taliban staged against the Indian embassy in Kabul five months ago, killing 60 people including the Indian military attaché.

New Delhi accused the ISI of masterminding the attack and was supported by Washington.


ISI challenges British intelligence and Mossad

6. In Mumbai, Pakistan intelligence factions settled scores with the British MI5 domestic intelligence and its MI6 spy service as well as the Israeli Mossad.

For three years, the pro-al Qaeda sympathizers in the ISI have been conducting an undercover running contest with British intelligence for control of the British Pakistan community and the medressas where some of their children are sent to be educated. The British were shocked by the July 2005 suicide attacks on their home ground on London transport. When their counter-terror agencies launched aggressive operations against the radical mosques in Britain and medressas in Pakistan, the ISI began fighting back.

DEBKA-Net-Weekly's counter-terror sources report the ISI regards the Pakistani medressas, long seen in the West as hothouses for breeding terrorist recruits, as its exclusive turf and source of power.

Even al Qaeda has no say in governing these academies for jihad – least of all British intelligence. Entry is strictly regulated by Pakistani intelligence guards on their doors to keep unwanted visitors out. (my comment: this is going a bit too far)

But when England put British Pakistanis on trial for plotting to blow up 10 transatlantic commercial flights with liquid explosives in August 2006, the ISI declared war, even through no British jury found enough evidence for convictions. The prosecution's claim that the liquid bomb technology originated in Pakistan was enough to convince the belligerent ISI elements that their grip on the medressas was threatened.

On instructions from those elements, the Lashkar e-Taiba gunmen sought out holders of British as well as American passport holders as soon as they landed in Mumbai on Nov. 26.


Israelis singled out for brutal treatment

The Pakistani clandestine group's reckoning with the Israeli Mossad is less complicated.

Indian-Israeli defense cooperation covers multi-billion arms sales, including drones, sophisticated surveillance systems and border-monitoring equipment, as well as specialist anti-insurgency and anti-terrorist training and techniques. The Mossad external intelligence service maintains extensive ties with its Indian counterpart – RAW (Research and Analysis Wing) for combating ISI operations in Kashmir and other parts of the subcontinent.

Their horrendous attack on the Chabad Center in Mumbai, home from home for Israeli and Jewish visitors who were tortured before being brutally executed, was intended as a blow to Israeli-Indian military and intelligence cooperation. The ISI was also warning Israel to stay out of Southwest Asia or expose Jewish and Israeli targets to more attacks.


Mumbai Terror – II
Pakistani Intelligence Lays a Red Herring – or Two


Indian intelligence did take note of a US warning about an impending terrorist attack on the landmark Taj Mahal Palace Hotel, which was ravaged last month by Islamist terrorists in Mumbai. The date on the warning was September and when it failed to materialize by the end of the month, New Delhi decided the attack had been abandoned.

According to DEBKA-Net-Weekly's intelligence sources, the second half of October and first half of November went by without any further mention of Mumbai on the Islamic networks. US intelligence did not cancel its original alert but refrained from following it up by nagging the Indians to find out if they were still on guard for a major terrorist attack.


In fact, US intelligence was itself put off guard by a trick.

The National Security Agency (NSA), which is responsible for collecting and analysis of foreign signals intelligence, had been monitoring Lashkar e-Taiba phone calls through the Abu Dhabi-owned Thuraya satellite system, which as a primary source of clandestine data on violent Islamic extremist organizations.

Suddenly, in the first week of October, Lashkar e-Taiba operatives stopped talking about Mumbai over their phone conversations.

At the same time as this was noted by the NSA, the Indian spy agency RAW (the Research and Analysis Wing) also stopped hearing references to a Mumbai operation in the Lashkar e-Taiba conversations monitored on their channels. A week after the terrorist rampage which left 174 dead and 350 injured in Mumbai, both agencies realized they had been hoodwinked. The coordinated hush which should have set off alarm bells, put them off guard.


No tip-off to fellow counter-terror agencies

Leading Western authorities on Pakistan, speaking to DEBKA-Net-Weekly's sources, were surprised that neither the Americans nor Indians picked up on the abrupt disappearance of Mumbai references from Lashkar e-Taiba discourse, or showed any curiosity. Instead, they took it for granted that the Mumbai terrorist plot had been abandoned, breathed a sigh of relief and let it ride.

An Israeli intelligence officer who works with US and Indian spy agencies remarked to this publication that neither had bothered to tip off fellow counter-terror agencies in the region like, for instance, the Israelis or Brits, when they first discovered that the ISI-backed terrorist group had planned to land by sea and attack western and Israeli locations in Mumbai.

Had the first alert been shared with Jerusalem or London, someone there may have smelled a rat and suggested looking more closely into the sudden Lashkar e-Taiba silence on the Mumbai conspiracy before deciding it was off.

If the Israeli official sounded peeved, it is because in the last six months, the close intelligence collaboration between Israel and Indian slackened as Indian prime minister Manmohan Singh tried cultivating friendly ties with president Pakistan Asif Ali Zardari. This climate generated more harmony between Indian intelligence and the ISI elements fighting extremist Islamic groups. Although neither side fully trusted the other, Israel found itself demoted as New Delhi's senior partner in matters of security.




The trick worked like a charm



Plans for the Mumbai attack, as it turned out later, proceeded smoothly with the help of messengers instead of sat phones, unbeknownst to NSA and RAW analysts who failed to take this into account. Here, the Achilles heel of both agencies came to the fore: Never so far in the eight-year war on terror has either peen able to penetrate al Qaeda, the Taliban, or such extremist terrorist groups as the Lashkar e-Taiba. Western intelligence is therefore totally dependent on signals intelligence and when that dries up, the door is shut on the extremists' inner workings and plans.

After the event, US and Indian intelligence concluded that Lashkar operatives were advised by their ISI buddies to spill general information about their planned Mumbai attack over their satellite phones three months before it was launched for the benefit of American and Indian eavesdroppers. Then, six weeks ahead of the operation, they were to stop mentioning it in order to lull the Americans and Indians into assuming it had been cancelled.

The trick worked like a charm.

The Mumbai atrocity plunged the Singh government into hot water. It is caught between strained relations with Pakistan, popular demands in India to punish their neighbor and domestic fury over the politicians' intelligence and security lapses. The Indian police and commando are lambasted for taking 72 hours to overcome 10 terrorists.



Zardari fuels anti-Pakistan fury in Delhi – as per ISI plan

Singh has been trying to navigate the shoals. Monday, Dec. 1, New Delhi demanded the extradition of Lashkar e-Taiba leaders and Indian fugitives associated with them from Pakistan.

On the list were Dawoon Ibrahim, a Mumbai crime boss blamed for serial bombings in Mumbai in 1993 which left at least 250 dead; Maulan Masood Azhar, a Muslim cleric freed from Indian jail in exchange for passengers of a hijacked plan in 1999; and Hafiz Saeed, head of the Jamaat-ud Dawa group as well as founder and spiritual leader of the Lashkar e-Taiba.

At the same time, India refused Islamabad's demand for evidence against the men on the list.

No intelligence agency will part with information that can blow its undercover sources. RAW will certainly not surrender leads to informants in Pakistan or expose its intelligence-gathering methods in that country and other parts of Asia.

In any case, New Delhi fears that sharing intelligence with Islamabad, some of it relayed from US sources, would touch off a second round of terrorist outrages against India – partly to render that intelligence irrelevant.

The next day, president Zardari rejected India's extradition demands out of hand. He said that if evidence were provided, the suspects would be tried in Pakistani courts and if found guilty, punished under Pakistani law.

His reply further fueled the anti-Pakistan fury boiling up in New Delhi and India, exactly as the ISI intended.
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Mumbai Terror – III
Indian Retaliatory Raids inside Pakistan Impending


Furious preparations are under way in New Delhi for raids in Pakistan in reprisal for the Pakistan-based terrorist assault on Mumbai on Nov. 26. They are directed by defense minister A.K. Antony and chief of army staff Gen. Deepak Kapoor, DEBKA-Net-Weekly's military sources reveal.

Prime minister Manmohan Singh gave visiting US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice a mixed message when they talked in New Delhi on Wednesday, Dec. 3. He assured her that his government would do its best to prevent a war flaring up with Pakistan. But he also made it clear that India would have to retaliate militarily for the Mumbai outrage – not by a one-off operation but a string of raids against extremist Islamic terror groups operating from Pakistani bases. Among them were Lashkar e-Taibe, which is accused of the Mumbai assault, and Jaish e-Mohammed. Both are linked both to rogue elements in the ISI and al Qaeda.

Any further terror escalation, Singh stated, would be met with still stronger Indian military action

Foreign minister Pranab Mukherjee underlined this point after the American secretary's departure when he said that Indian officials are in no doubt that the Mumbai assailants came from Pakistan.

Singh also made it clear to his American visitor that India did not mean to hit government or military targets in Pakistan, but he refrained from offering any commitments on three points:


India prepares commando drops, air strikes, missile barrages


1. Should information be received of any Pakistani military installation harboring Islamic terrorists or providing them with logistic support, the Indian army would strike those installations unhesitatingly.

2. The Indian army would not limit its operations to any particular area but strike where it saw fit.

3. The Indian government offered no undertaking to notify Washington in advance of an operation or even share the intelligence prompting an incursion into Pakistan territory.

DEBKA-Net-Weekly's military sources have procured an outline of the tactics for these operations drawn up by India's strategic planners:

A. Indian special forces raiders will be flown in and dropped over terrorist command posts and sanctuaries inside Pakistan. Large-scale commando and air contingents will secure the raiders on missions against terrorist locations embedded in urban districts against local intervention.

B. Aerial bombardment of terrorist sites, even at the risk of dogfights with the Pakistani air force.

C. Missile barrages on bases and training installations of terrorist groups similar to the 1998 twin American attacks on al Qaeda installations in Afghanistan and Sudan.


New Delhi is in a hurry


It is hard to imagine president Asif Ali Zardari and prime minister Yousuf Raza Gilani letting a missile blitz go by without ordering the Pakistani army to hit back; chief of army staff, Gen. Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, would not stand for it and he would no doubt go ahead with a counter-attack in defiance of the politicians.

Already, our sources report that Zardari, Gilani and Kayani are at loggerheads.

The general disputes the government line which leans toward cooperating with the Indian investigation of the terrorist attacks. He wants Islamabad to stand up to New Delhi, flatly deny allegations of ISI implication and confront India with a troop buildup on their border. India should realize, he contends, that any military action would meet with armed Pakistani resistance.

D. Indian special marine forces would make seaborne landings at terrorist locations on the Pakistani coast, possibly by submarine.

E. Drones would use laser-guided missiles like the American Predators striking terrorist sanctuaries on the Pakistani-Afghan border.

F. Covert Indian death squads would liquidate high-profile terrorist leaders in Pakistani cities.

DEBKA-Net-Weekly's military sources report that India's political and military leaders know that time is not on their side. They cannot afford to wait to go after Pakistan until after they have corrected the glaring blunders and failings revealed in the operation against the terrorists who held Mumbai to siege for three days because the public is too angry to brook delays. India is therefore preparing to go full ahead full tilt with military reprisals - even at the risk of igniting a major war conflagration with Pakistan.

Commando units expanded six fold

For now, India's war planners are focusing on the rapid, large-scale expansion of commando units until they have enough to carry out deep incursions into Pakistan while also defending the home front against more terrorist attacks. A six fold expansion has been approved.

Under consideration is a separate air wing on permanent standby for counter-terror forces to improve their mobility.

Also planned is an armed coastal defense force to seal India's shores against terrorist landings like the seaborne terrorist incursion of Mumbai. This is a vast enterprise given the length of India's coastline – 7,516 kilometers.

New Delhi is looking at two examples: the US Coast Guard, which protects American shores and ports but cannot seal them hermetically, and Israel, whose navy uses missile vessels and coastal radar to seal its shores.

India is also planning a new intelligence system after its Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) failed to sound the alarm of the coming assault on its financial capital.

All these projects demand many billions and time counted in years before a national security machine is standing and fully coordinated.

Fact box


India's special forces have six arms:

Para Commandos, an elite unit of the Indian Army;

The Marine Commando Force (MCF), special forces of the Indian Navy;

The planned campaign of retaliation against Pakistan will speed up the establishment of a blue-water intervention force capable of conducting covert operations and specialized warfare outside Indian borders. The framework is present but it is too small to meet India's post-Mumbai requirements;

Garud Commando Force, special Indian Air force units trained mainly in Special Forces tactics, Combat Search and Rescue, Counter Insurgency Operations and emergency responses to terrorist threats to airfields;

The National Security Guards (NSG), rated as one of the most professional units of its kind in Asia.

It fills the following functions: neutralization of specific terrorist threats to vital installations in any given area; handling hijack situations involving air or land piracy; engaging and neutralizing terrorists; and the rescue of hostages in kidnap situations;

The Special Frontier Force (SFF), an elite guerrilla unit originally composed mainly of Tibetan refugees trained to conduct covert operations behind Chinese lines in the event of another Indo-China war. It has since been converted to covert cross-border operations on any front as needed;

The Special Protection Group protects Indian VIPs, like the prime minister. Recruits include NSG commandos and police who receive similar training to that of the American Secret Service.
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shynee
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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby shynee » 17 Jan 2009 00:55


ramana
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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2009 01:20

shyamd, thanks for the post. It confirms and also obfuscates some details. Please post in the intel thread as archive material.

enqyoob
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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby enqyoob » 17 Jan 2009 02:05

Meanwhile from the one and only real intelligence portal
ZWK has learned from reliable sources that the Israeli attack on Gaza was in fact a response to the Mumbai terrorist atrocities perpetrated on the Jewish family. Pakistan ISI No. 3, Imran bin Multan, had gone to Gaza to conclude a business deal involving 10000 Egyptian goats to be imported to Pakistan. Mossad was informed by RAW about Imran's whereabouts from cellphone intercepts in Kashmir.

The claimed death of 2 Israeli children in rocket attacks, that was used as the immediate provocation, did not in fact occur. It was the deaths of the rabbi and his wife in Mumbai that were the real provocations.

The initial Israeli air raids killed several dozen Palestinian and Pakistan ISI personnel, but Israel could not be sure that Imran was among them. This necessitated the ground offensive, to capture the gravesites and get DNA evidence.

More on this later.




This is easy. I think I'll start an Intelligence NewsLetter. What should I call it, folks? "ZeroWattKa"?

BTW, isn't "debka" NS Rajaram's scam, or is that "IntelligenceOnline"?

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby John Snow » 17 Jan 2009 02:23

There is mole in the cabinet dear peter
With what shall I fix it dear peter
...... :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2009 03:34

shiv wrote:[

May I post a different take on this.

The game here is to nail the Pakis into confessing that the criminals are in Pakistan and then bringing them to justice.

"Extradition" has one advantage and one disadvantage.

The advantage is that it is a powerful demand which can later be watered down as part of bargaining

The disadvantage is the risk of torn shirt vs open fly i.e it serves as a point on which to obfuscate and change the subject.

.....

The point here is that Pakistan is refusing to admit that it has anything to do with 26/11. But they are actually caught in a diplomatic pincer.

Everyone is saying that they are responsible and they are denying it. If they admit it now - then they will be asked why the lied in the first place. if they keep denying, they will be called liars.

Pakistan is in a tough situation. Pressure being applied on them is to create some kind of internal split where one group goes against the other and admits that there are people within the establishment who are involved here.


The guilty party in Pakistan are powerful enough to control boob squeezer Gilani, Zardari as well as kick out Durani without allowing an admission of guilt.

But India's case rests on the US and echelon. They provided the transcripts of VOIP. If the US "loses evidence" the case can fall apart. if that happens - this episode will be left as a kind of dysfunctional reminder of the cruelty of geopolitics.

Pakistan will have to bribe the US and UK in some way to wriggle out. That is not a happy route for them either.

My view? I think Pakistans nuclear facilities should first be taken out as a priority. The first aim should be that. No mater what unkil or anyone thinks - I don't think anyone will diisagree with that.



Shiv, Read this:
http://nightwatch.afcea.org/NightWatch_20090115.htm

India: The Hindu published comments by the General Officer Commanding in Chief, Northern Command, Lieutenant General P.C. Bhardwaij who summarized the security situation in Jammu and Kashmir State during an Army Day press conference. "About 600 to 800 militants are active in Jammu and Kashmir as per the assessment of various security agencies," General Bhardwaij said.

He maintained that the militants and their leaders” are under severe pressure due to the elimination of their top cadres. Due to this cumulative effect, 335 militants have been killed in joint operations during last year,” he said.

Referring to cross-border infiltration, Bhardwaij said, "Infiltration is on decline since 2004 due to multi-tier deployment of security we have taken along Line of Control, … a number of terrorists training camps are still active in Pakistan."

Chief of Army Staff General Deepak Kapoor said the Indian Army's "patience is being tested" after the Mumbai attacks. Speaking on the occasion of Army Day, Kapoor said the Army faces many challenges and that "our neighbor has been creating problems for us." Kapoor urged constant vigilance.

In diplomacy today, India dropped its demand that Pakistan turn over all individuals involved in the 26 November Mumbai attacks, GEO World reported. External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee said India would accept a “fair trial” in Pakistan of anybody involved in the attack. “It would be ideal if they can hand over the fugitives to us. If that is not possible, there should be a fair trial of these fugitives in Pakistan. It should not be a mock trial. It should be transparent and demonstrated,” he said.

Today’s statements are important for several reasons. Bhardwaij provided the most recent estimate of Kashmiri terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir State and confirmed that the camps on the Pakistan side of the Line of Control remain active, despite promises to fight terror. He and General Kapoor are now leading the public charge that explicitly blames Pakistan for India’s security problems. That frees the Prime Minister and the External Affairs Minister to appear more flexible.

The appearance of hard and softer lines is a contrivance, in NightWatch’s experience. Senior Indian military officers seldom make politically-charged, provocative public statements while on active duty unless they have approval from the government. The Indians are trying to whipsaw the Pakistani leaders as part of the pressure campaign to stop terrorist support from Pakistan.



kind of confirms your and Yusuf's take on Pranab Mukherjee's statement.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2009 03:45

This is wrt the Meerut spy case quoted on this page
From Night watch
Night Watch for 1/14/09

India: “Waging war is a political decision,” Indian Chief of Army Staff, General Deepak Kapoor, told a press conference in New Delhi today. He claimed the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks came from Pakistan, and “in view of that ... we are keeping all our options open”.

“It must be understood that it is not to create any war hysteria and the options include diplomatic, economic and – as a last resort – fighting,” he said. He said the armed forces were required to maintain a high level of ‘combat readiness’ at all times.

Kapoor said the Indian Army was aware of Pakistani troop movement from the western to eastern border. “Having known this fact, let me assure you that the Indian Army has factored this in its plans.” He said the ‘strike formation’ around the Indo-Pak border in December was ‘routine’.

Kapoor said the army would continue playing a role in countering terrorist threats, although such operations were the responsibility of the Home Ministry and the agencies under it. About the nuclear threat faced by the region, Kapoor said, “The presence of nuclear weapons in our neighbourhood underlines that any conventional war can ... turn into a nuclear war”.

Kapoor’s statement is the first public confirmation that an Indian strike corps – two tank divisions and one mechanized infantry division – moved to its assembly positions opposite Pakistan and proceeded to engage in winter collective training, which is normal. Kapoor did not state whether the armored strike force returned to garrison and peacetime normality. His statement about all options being open tends to imply it remains in battle position.

What Kapoor did not say is that India has three armored strike forces. Two of them apparently remain in their base cantonments. However, the peacetime base of one of the strike forces is permanently near the Pakistan border. The other two are back from the border. It is not clear which unit did the training last month and that is part of the psychological game the Indians are playing with the Pakistanis. No body is backing down yet.



So the spy case makes sense. It was moved from Meerut and is still at the border.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby John Snow » 17 Jan 2009 04:11

Where is Surya?

I said about Golconda Barracks , AOC in Secunderabad and Allahabad cantt.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby AdityaM » 17 Jan 2009 04:36

While the GoI did nothing, the media did not complain.
Now that the civilians have done something, the media is berating it.

NDTV is complaining that MNS workers forced a Paki comedian shakeel out of a studio in mumbai, and is harping on how the artists are innocent & it is wrong to turn away pakis.

MNS has atleast done what MMS is unable to.

However, our resident media expert Vishnu Som Must explain to BRF as to why it is ok for them in NDTV to raise such a stink over a paki artist. Afterall, it was Vishnu today who was delivering that news & making wrong noises.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby vsunder » 17 Jan 2009 04:41

They handled the Meerut spy incorrectly. GoI should have taken a leaf out of Masterman's XX committee.
I have Masterman's book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Cross_System

Could have been used to feed lies and make TSP jump the gun.

One of the agents who was subverted and played an important role was code-named Snow.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2009 04:45

I think the pressure made them realize there was spy and they needed to findout what was going on and to inform TSP that their thota is caught.

Who knows they have the best situation appraisal.

Yes I read the Masterman book in college.

The real beauty of the story is they moved the strike corps(there are two now at the border) and not sent it back to barracks! And the Agnis are there to give Agony to the TSP.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby shynee » 17 Jan 2009 06:36

India again seeks suspects’ extradition

NEW DELHI: A day after India reportedly softened its stance over the extradition of suspects in the Mumbai terror attacks investigation, India on Friday denied it had dropped the demand that Pakistan hand over the suspects. External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee told reporters the perpetrators of terrorism must face Indian justice, and claimed there were no legal issues in the extradition. Clarifying comments made by him in an interview, Mukherjee said India had never given up the demand. The minister also called on Pakistan to undertake a full.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby shynee » 17 Jan 2009 06:45

Heavy movement of Indian Army in Baramalla, Poonch sectors

NEW DELHI: Heavy movement of the Indian Army was noticed on Friday from Baramalla and Poonch sectors along the Line of Control (LoC) in Indian-held Kashmir. Though, there was no official word, Indian army officials told Srinagar-based newspapers that they were reinforcing defences. Residents of the border tehsil of Uri said the movement of army convoys carrying troops, artillery guns and mules in the area had increased over the past few days. They also claimed that India had also deployed artillery guns near a village, where a separatist leader, Sheikh Abdul Aziz, was killed in August last year. The residents also claimed it seemed as if the Indian Army were preparing for a full-scale operation.



Indian army holding war drill on Line of Control

Srinagar—Indian Army has reinforced troop deployment besides installing Bofors artillery guns and other battle wares along the 734 Km long, 34 Km wide LoC. The soldiers, according sources, have been put on highest alert “to meet any eventuality.”

A top army officer based in North Kashmir confirmed to Rising Kashmir that adequate manpower and logistics are being transported towards the Line of Control (LOC).

“We are building adequate logistics and are also filling gaps by further reinforcing troops,” he disclosed, adding, “We are taking such steps as a precautionary measure as Pakistan is mobilising its troops on other side of LoC”.

Without disclosing the number of troops being deployed on the de-facto border, he said, “Our arms and ammunition are in ready mode. We are ready to deal with any situation”.

Maintaining that armoury and manpower proves effective during wars, he said, “We think Pakistan would react”.

He, however, ruled out a full-fledged war. “Pakistan would probably engage them in border skirmishes,” he added.

Meanwhile, the Uri residents have panicked after observing the increased troops movement from the last four days.

“The movement of army convoys has increased during past few days,” a resident of Tchal, Uri Ahmad Khan told Rising Kashmir. “They are transporting troops, artillery guns and mules to LoC. It looks as if they are preparing for the war”.

The border residents said army has deployed artillery guns inside their camp near Tchal. “They were installed also installed at the same place but later were taken away,” a resident of Nowshera Uri Ghulam Mohammad said.

“Army has also started installing bofors guns at the same place. The war preparations have started in full scale,” he added.

According to the border residents, army has also deputed its men alongwith BSF personnel to guard and patrol the roads.

Army has also started building up logistics and reinforcement along the Line of Control in Mendhar sector of Poonch district.

The residents of Saki Maidan close to LoC in Mendhar sector said army has deployed a full artillery brigade in the area. “Three days back, the artillery and troops were placed in the agricultural land. After our protests, army redeployed the men and machinery and positioned the tanks and artillery guns near the river,” they said.

The border residents said that army is gathering logistic and deploying reinforcement in the Saki Maidan, which is just 3 kilometres from Mendhar sector.

“Every day army adds a bofors gun to the already assembled artillery guns. The tanks and artillery guns were deployed in similar manner in the Saki Maidan area after the Indo-Pak tension increased following 1998 Kargil war,” they said.

The fear-stricken villagers said that it appears that India and Pakistan is preparing for a war. “We are really worried and do not want”.—SANA

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby enqyoob » 17 Jan 2009 08:53

The Pakis seem to have a lot of correspondents writing from Srinagar, with reports from border villagers?

No reports in the DDM - how come, I wonder?

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2009 08:59

narayanan wrote:The Pakis seem to have a lot of correspondents writing from Srinagar, with reports from border villagers?

No reports in the DDM - how come, I wonder?


the Pakis have already moved some forces per their own statements. Indian movements if at all are in response only As Gen Kapoor said. Its insurance to ensure there is no surprise. Nothing to worry. DDM is busy with Oamr Abdullah and his antics.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby sunilUpa » 17 Jan 2009 09:01

GOI tries to pass the buck of inaction on to Army

So Army was not ready so we didn't attack! I take it that if Pakistan attacks now, they will reach New Delhi in 48 hrs! :evil:

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby enqyoob » 17 Jan 2009 09:02

ramana:

If there is a coup in TSP (as several are predicting), I wonder if it will end the reluctance in Dilli to go in and finish them off. Why start another 10 years of military rule and tolerate another dictator? The time to hit would be exactly when the coup is underway.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby milindc » 17 Jan 2009 09:04

sunilUpa wrote:GOI tries to pass the buck of inaction on to Army

So Army was not ready so we didn't attack! I take it that if Pakistan attacks now, they will reach New Delhi in 48 hrs! :evil:


Per Headlines Today, Army told GoI that it is not prepared for war. IAF and Navy were prepared for response.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2009 09:07

N^3, Aiyyo! There will be coup to prevent Indian action. There is no other alternative to stop Indians. Long ago in 2004 I said INC will give secular jhapad and no one and repeat no one can stop them. I think its inching to that. The only way to stop is TSPA drops the civilian facde and takes over.

Milindc dont be fooled. All that is smoke and mirrors. The Meerut corps is in position.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby sunilUpa » 17 Jan 2009 09:17

milindc wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:GOI tries to pass the buck of inaction on to Army

So Army was not ready so we didn't attack! I take it that if Pakistan attacks now, they will reach New Delhi in 48 hrs! :evil:


Per Headlines Today, Army told GoI that it is not prepared for war. IAF and Navy were prepared for response.


Aaare mere bhayee..from where on earth do you think I linked the story? Did you open that link and read it?
Last edited by sunilUpa on 17 Jan 2009 09:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2009 09:20

sunil, Manoj Joshi's relative told me in 1992 not to believe anything the guy writes as he was/is a Commie.

So forget it.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby brihaspati » 17 Jan 2009 09:24

I would still think it is more for psychological pressure rather than any actual engagement. Unless real engagement has been planned in other sectors and this is a diversionary one.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2009 09:26

brihaspati wrote:I would still think it is more for psychological pressure rather than any actual engagement. Unless real engagement has been planned in other sectors and this is a diversionary one.


Jupterji go back to R. Narayanan's translation of Arthsashtra. Its the Penguin India edition.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby sunilUpa » 17 Jan 2009 09:29

ramana wrote:sunil, Manoj Joshi's relative told me in 1992 not to believe anything the guy writes as he was/is a Commie.

So forget it.

Ah got you..

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby milindc » 17 Jan 2009 09:31

ramana wrote:N^3, Aiyyo! There will be coup to prevent Indian action. There is no other alternative to stop Indians. Long ago in 2004 I said INC will give secular jhapad and no one and repeat no one can stop them. I think its inching to that. The only way to stop is TSPA drops the civilian facde and takes over.

Milindc dont be fooled. All that is smoke and mirrors. The Meerut corps is in position.


For me, it is obvious that Cangress is trying to pass the buck to Army for its inaction. Why bring it up now? This news was broken by Manoj Joshi, a political correspondent and pro-congress journalist.

sunilUpa,
Headlines Today had Manoj Joshi live, he is the same guy who wrote IndiaToday article. I just hate that guy, boils my BP every time I hear him.

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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai II

Postby Div » 17 Jan 2009 09:48

narayanan wrote:
Uddaiya went missing on Sunday morning and returned to Mumbai on Wednesday around 1.30 am.


Oh,yeah .
From America. In an SR-71, no doubt.
:rotfl: :rotfl:

Someone else who's read "The Devil's Alternative"?

;)

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby dinakar » 17 Jan 2009 09:58

Miliband’s ‘aggressive’ style upsets Delhi
New Delhi: It is unusual for the government to publicly criticise the views of a foreign dignitary on an official visit, especially before his trip to India is over. So when Ministry of External Affairs spokesman Vishnu Prakash issued a tartly worded statement on Thursday in response to a question about “certain views expressed by British Foreign Secretary David Miliband,” diplomatic eyebrows immediately went up. The assumption was that India was responding to the views expressed by Mr. Miliband in an op-ed in The Guardian or in his joint press conference with External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee.
Strident arguments

Senior officials told The Hindu on Friday the MEA statement was really the product of the irritation India felt with Mr. Miliband for the “aggressive” manner in which he conducted himself in his closed-door meetings with Mr. Mukherjee and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. :evil: :evil: In particular, South Block took offence to his strident arguments that the Mumbai terror attacks were really the result of the Kashmir issue remaining unresolved.

“He’s a young man and I guess this is the way he thinks diplomacy is conducted,” said a senior official. “In both his meetings, his posture and style of talking were a little too aggressive. The PM and EAM are much older and this is not what they are used to,” he added, describing the meetings as “quite an episode.”

Mr. Miliband, they said, was also clearly unaware of all that India and Pakistan had done on the Kashmir front from cross-LoC trade to discussing ‘soft borders’ before terror attacks like Mumbai slowed down and brought the process to a halt.

Apart from Mr. Miliband’s demeanour, what irked the Indian side was his insistence on drawing a link between Mumbai and Kashmir. Officials said he berated Dr. Singh and Mr. Mukherjee on this point and said that whatever India may wish to say on the matter in public, in private they must accept that they had to do more to work with Pakistan to find a solution to the Kashmir issue. “Yes, there is a Kashmir issue and we need to resolve it,” the Indian side told the British Minister. “But when a group like the Lashkar, which says it supports ‘global jihad,’ attacks Mumbai and kills Americans and Brits and Jews, what does this have to do with Kashmir?”
Annoyed

Mr. Miliband also annoyed the Indian side by warning the two leaders that Delhi should not even think of taking any kind of military action against Pakistan in the wake of the Mumbai attacks. :evil: :evil:

All told, say Indian officials, the two meetings with Mr. Miliband were “pretty awful.” India had no objection to the British Foreign Secretary publicly disagreeing with the Prime Minister’s statement that “some official agencies in Pakistan” must be involved in Mumbai. ‘Sovereign governments can and will disagree with each other’s assessments,” an official said. “But he needs to know that we do not take kindly to being hectored.”

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown had been “quite positive” on the issues which concerned India, during his visit to New Delhi last month.

So now the foreign sec of britain also started to dictate the PM of India :evil: :evil: Our PM a very good hearted person for this action will give a card wishing him a good journey when he leaves India

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby milindc » 17 Jan 2009 10:04

rshyam wrote:Miliband’s ‘aggressive’ style upsets Delhi
Mr. Miliband also annoyed the Indian side by warning the two leaders that Delhi should not even think of taking any kind of military action against Pakistan in the wake of the Mumbai attacks. :evil: :evil:


The question is whether these are his personal views or from UK.
So he hectored PM and FM and then went on his tour with Rahul baba to check out poverty in rural India.
Who else in global community is supporting Pakistan's Quid pro quo on Mumbai attacks?

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby sunilUpa » 17 Jan 2009 10:15

milindc - same here..

What Pranb da actually said..

Q. What do you want from them, what are the preferences?
A. We want them to hand over those Indian fugitives who have run away from here. A fair trial should be held, not mock ones. The prosecution should be done properly. They shouldn't punish them. The police should take it to a logical end. Then we will be satisfied and it would be demonstrable. Let the people know.

Q. If I have understood you correctly, you mean to say that the list you have given to them, apart from those people, let the other Pakistani nationals who are involved be tried in Pakistan? You won't try them here?
A. Yes, this can happen. The trial should be transparent. We have caught Ajmal Kasab. But according to the information we have received, there were 10 terrorists and nine have been killed and one captured. But there were others who were a part of the conspiracy. They should be caught and tried there. The authorities there should not let them go scot-free.


link

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby archan » 17 Jan 2009 10:19

rshyam wrote:So now the foreign sec of britain also started to dictate the PM of India

I think we should rfrain from over sensationalizing the issues. Yes he was aggressive, but that does not mean that he was able to dictate anything to the Indians. Being aggressive is not great diplomacy in most cases unless there is a war or similar urgency. All he did was to put off the Indians and he probably will not get another tour to India. Good riddance.

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Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby Dilbu » 17 Jan 2009 10:31

Rediff reports on the Amirkhan trip (FWIW)
Neighbour confirms eyewitness's US story
K Madhusudhan Nair is the adhyaksh (chairman) of the Mahatma Jyotiba Phule Samaj Seva Trust and a local leader at Macchimar Nagar, situated at Cuffe Parade, south Mumbai [Images], just a few metres away from the spot where the 10 terrorists disembarked from a rubber dinghy on November 26 last year.
He is also a neighbour to Anita Rajendra Udiyar, who runs a scrap shop and has been in the news this week for her alleged trip abroad to give evidence, since she witnessed the terrorists's landing in the city that November evening.

Nair vouches for Udiyar's story. He says he is 100 per cent sure she went abroad because she was to be presented as a witness to give legitimacy to India's claims about the 26/11 attacks:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know her for 30 years. I have been living here for that long. For at least 12 years of that time this basti (little locality) has been under my charge. I am the chairman of this area and I give them all kinds of help.
She had been in talks with certain officers for some time. She had been called to give a statement. They asked her if she can come and identify the dead bodies. She started telling me about 20 days ago that I may have to go out of the country. My passport is ready. My medical is done. Some big officers are going to take me (so she can give evidence). I told her that is a great thing. You are going for the country. So don't be scared. We will support you.

On Saturday (January 10) she was supposed to leave from here (to go abroad) at 9 or 10 o'clock. And a phone came for her at five from one of the big sahibs. When she met me around that time she started crying. I brought her here (into his home a few doors away) and explained to her: 'You have already done such a big kaam (job) and you have supported the country. You have done seva (service). For Bharat you will have to go'. I had to counsel her quite a bit. She kept crying that she feels scared.

At first there were six witnesses from this Machimar colony. They were finally excluded (from the investigation) because their statements failed. So she became the sole eyewitness (from here) for the police... yes, the Indian police.

This matter is being handled at a high level and I cannot tell you who. And she is not willing to tell me because it is being kept a secret. She has been told to not leak much bahar (outside) or there will be problems for you.

The six had been giving their statements in the police commissioner's office. Actually later it turned out that some of them had not seen anything.

But she was sitting right there and the boat came right there. She saw them get off the boat. She was sitting outside. She is always sitting outside because she has a shop.

Her dogs started barking a lot. And behind them one more dog of the area. Usually only one of her dogs barks, but when both started barking she wondered and asked them (the terrorists) 'Who are you? What do you want? Where have you come from?' They told her, 'You do your own work'. She got further doubts. And she saw their faces.

She got a very good look at them -- their clothes especially, their faces, their hats, their cutting (hairstyles). She got that all right. She had the right details. She was more exact.

They (the six witnesses) would go together to the commissioner's office. But on the last day (Saturday January 10) when the officer called her, they called her alone. It was not the Cuffe Parade police station that was in touch with here. She had gotten support from the office of the Mumbai commissioner, the crime branch. They were in touch with her. They are now hiding it because it will be a problem for them.

Then they told her that they wanted her to go out of the country to meet a team in America as a witness. They were a high-level team and I cannot tell you who. They wanted to take to her to give yakeen (belief) to the people abroad (that such events had happened in Mumbai). She was an eyewitness and they wanted to present her there. So that those people would have bharosa (faith in the results of India's investigation).

The team who took her has her passport. The officers made her passport. When they take people in secret they do not give them their passports or there will be some leakage.

She had told me that they would take her at 10 pm on Saturday, so all of us, the team were with her -- just to see who these persons were, to maybe take their cards. I thought let me at least see their faces. If something happens to her people will come asking us. Even the Cuffe Parade police station can ask us.

But they did not come at 10 o'clock. But someone phoned the newswallahs so from 10 o'clock these news people were in her house to see who would take her. The team, who was planning to take her saw the newswallahs, and did not come near. They wanted to take her in secret. Instead at 5.15 am on Sunday, when she went to the bathroom, she left and no one set eyes on her after that.

How did the leakage happen? When she changed her date (of departure) and when she went missing we gave a complaint -- her family -- and I was there. We did not know if she had gone to the right place or the wrong place. Her family got scared so we had to give a complaint. We complained to the Cuffe Parade police station that we have not seen her. Her daughter said she cannot find her mother.

But that secret agency took her away and in the same way they brought her back.

(His wife Ranjana interjects: 'She came back wearing the same clothes left in.')

I am 100 per cent sure she went abroad.

(His wife again interjects: 'Yes she gave us all the details. That she had to change her clothes. And that she covered her face. She said she gave her statement to a Negro judge. She said she didn't like the strange kind of leafy food there -- something like Chinese -- that she got to eat and how she told them that she is a fish curry and rice eater. Would that all be a lie? She has gone there and that is why she knows all this. And they also told her not to tell anyone. And keep this a secret. And they are going to take her once more'.)

Continues Nair: There are Indian officers involved and also foreign officers. But the people who took her were American. I think they are an FBI team. She does not know which place she went to in America. She says it was a very big city. Lots of quite tall buildings. And that they kept her in a big hotel. And when she described it, it sounded like America.

They put some clothes on her and made her look like you (the reporter) so that there would not be any problem there. She went in a special plane. She sat in the plane at seven am (Sunday) and it took her 16 to 17 hours. And they kept her there for only one day. She gave a statement for two hours and they took her back to the plane and brought her back and left her at Andheri. She took a taxi because she said if she came with them people will get suspicious. But they still followed her all the way here.

That day she returned -- at 2 or 2.30 pm (Tuesday) -- the police were there and the newswallahs were there at her house. She got scared. She was not supposed to tell anyone she had gone. But because we gave a complaint everyone was there. So she said she went to the village (Satara). Actually the team had told her not to give the news to anyone because they said: 'Your life will be in danger because there are still terrorists hiding in the country. If you give your photo and too much news it could be dangerous. Keep this hidden.' :|

(His wife interjects: 'Her life is in danger, so the poor thing is scared.')

Yusuf
BRFite
Posts: 164
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 10:03

Re: Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Postby Yusuf » 17 Jan 2009 10:43

RayC wrote:
Yusuf wrote:
RayC wrote:While Shiv and Yusuf have hit the nail on the head, it is a very tricky situation that has developed. Pakistan is in a tough situation and of that there is no doubt.
Technically


But Sir, Pakistan has barely been a democracy. The earthquake took place when Musharraff was in charge. Also there is no guarantee that this present "democratic" government will last till next spring. Its more to do with the will to act. Besides Terrorism is an instrument of state policy of Pakistan with its state agencies (read ISI, PA) involved. So the trails of every investigation will lead to these agencies and therefore the lack of will to act.
Last edited by enqyoob on 17 Jan 2009 17:18, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: No need to quote entire post quoting quoted response to quoted entire post, pls.


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