Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

[A_Gupta]

....
If GoI attacks Pakistan, the cost will go up by a factor of 50 or 100 in a war, with no guarantee of terror reducing to zero.

So the GoI draws a line at some point and says this is all that can be done to tackle terror directly. It gets too costly beyond a point - human lives are cheaper unless you consider war expenses and dead soldiers as "increased cost".....

So, e.g., a thousand military casualties in a limited action war will not save a thousand-plus civilians from future attacks, and so the expenditure is deemed futile?

[kulhari]

Answer given by some one else before:

Where are the balls?

[A_Gupta]

The LeT leadership lives just across the border in Lahore. How hard is to keep track of where they go, where they stay. Why can't some standoff missiles (launched within our borders, no need to cross international border with a/c) be used to eliminate them? We can deny we launched the missile. Who can prove it anyhow? And we can talk with Pakistani Foreign Sec and tell him we know where he lives as well.

Has the drone pulverization of successive Paki Taliban leaders had an impact on the Paki Taliban? If yes, then this is worth trying.

[Gerard]

So, e.g., a thousand military casualties in a limited action war will not save a thousand-plus civilians from future attacks, and so the expenditure is deemed futile?

Why do you assume a limited action war will deter future terrorist strikes?

[Dilbu]

Anybody betting on chidu's 'different ball game'? For phuck's sake it is time we did something like that.

[Gerard]

In a few months MMS will sign amrikhan dictated line on Kashmir and in the runup to it the attacks will increase in scale and intensity

Has MMS signed any American dotted lines previously?

Did MMS sign on the dotted line at Doha (WTO)?
Did MMS sign the NPT (as is American stated objective)?
Did MMS sign the CTBT?

Why this fervent belief that MMS is selling (and reselling) India to the US every Monday morning ?
The man is not exactly the vibrant leader that many of us would like to see (to put things charitably) but why this assumption that he is willing to hand over Jammu and Kashmir when he has explicitly stated that there will be no territorial change?

[A_Gupta]

our great neighbour is back to Business as Usual.

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/feb/ ... by-pak.htm

a. Increased civil unrest in J&K
b. Increased infiltration efforts by Pakistan
c. Major US+NATO offensive in the Marja area where US expects Paki forces to stop fleeing Taliban at the border.
d. Constitutional crisis (again) in Pakistan - President vs. Supreme Court
e. The Spectre of Talks with India
f. India Defence Expo 2010


Pune bomb blast is connected to these.

[A_Gupta]

So, e.g., a thousand military casualties in a limited action war will not save a thousand-plus civilians from future attacks, and so the expenditure is deemed futile?

Why do you assume a limited action war will deter future terrorist strikes?

I'm not assuming, I'm asking Shiv if that is his argument why GOI desists.

PS: I do think that we need to ask whether the period between 26/11/2008 and 13/2/2010, which was relatively quiet, was an aberration, or if not, why was it quiet?

[jaladipc]

P.C says that there was no intelligence failure.
It means,the intell agencies already passed the news/reports to the state and central security departments.

and Unfortunate is that the state police and other anti-terror forces were busy providing security to prince and movie goers while ignoring the terrorist attack.

Knock,knock....... wake up sid....... I was lost....... http://www.helpimgoingcrazy.co.uk/Images/Banner.jpg

[Raja Ram]

Gerard,

Valid point. Limited war will not guarantee a cessation of terror attacks.

By the same logic, we have tried peace process by all parties in India with all parties in Pakistan, many many times - for the last 60 years, what has been the success in reducing terror attacks? Have they stopped or increased?

How many times have we tried complete freezing relations - no contact, no nothing type and a multi-pronged retribution efforts that includes intense diplomatic pressure, economic punitive measures, and precision military strikes, all in a correct and calibrated proportions - like the one suggested by the IIM B prof and BRF contributor Vaidya post Mumbai attacks?

How can we assume the latter is not going to be effective, so we will continue with the peace process and aman tamasha ignoring every terror attack with a hope that this tried and failed method of talking peace is going to provide results some day?

The question one can ask is how capable is India to deliver the latter option? The capability is there. The next question - Will there be repurcussions and some cost attached should India exercise that option 2? - Yes, you bet there will be. Next logical question - Are we as a nation willing to pay the price? - The easy answer is to state that No the nation is not prepared. That is plain wrong. The nation is already paying a heavy price with the tried, tested and failed option of talking and talking.

Then what gives? - Clearly a lack of leadership and conviction. No capability that this nation has can be of any value, if the willingness to take responsibility and lead is not provided by the elected government. It is a failure of duty. It is a failure of leadership. It is a failure of courage and statesmanship.

Period.

[sunnyP]

Catch culprits of Pune blast fast, orders Manmohan

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/catch-culpri ... ml?from=tn

[Shameek]

PS: I do think that we need to ask whether the period between 26/11/2008 and 13/2/2010, which was relatively quiet, was an aberration, or if not, why was it quiet?

One possible reason is that a continuous string of attacks closely spaced together might actually cause our govt. to do something more drastic. This is certainly not what the pigs want. The advantage of a low intensity war is just that. So they wait while we lick our wounds and the national uproar and security levels recede/get diverted to other things and then strike again.

[JwalaMukhi]

Then what gives? - Clearly a lack of leadership and conviction. No capability that this nation has can be of any value, if the willingness to take responsibility and lead is not provided by the elected government. It is a failure of duty. It is a failure of leadership. It is a failure of courage and statesmanship.

Period.

Thanks Raja Ram ji, for saying it like it should be. There are no leaders. There are only file pushers and managers who can effectively do power point presos and host chai-samosa parties to the accompaniment of dossier exchanges.
Earlier, unfortunately, we found a minister who should have had fashion design portfolio, was elevated to home ministry. That turned out be disaster and course correction was done. But the best we could do was put in a bean counter in charge, ably assisted by a transcription specialist.
At this point, a home maker in home ministry would do a much better job than any of bean counters or fashion connossieurs.

[kulhari]

In a few months MMS will sign amrikhan dictated line on Kashmir and in the runup to it the attacks will increase in scale and intensity

Why this fervent belief that MMS is selling (and reselling) India to the US every Monday morning ?
The man is not exactly the vibrant leader that many of us would like to see (to put things charitably) but why this assumption that he is willing to hand over Jammu and Kashmir when he has explicitly stated that there will be no territorial change?

I went too far to name MMS. I realise and I shall edit that part.

But the past statements and his followup donot exactly inspire confidence (for instance Sharam-el-Sheikh or Perpetual fuel supply assurances MMS gave to the parliament) and since I DONOT want to derail this thread and I will desist from further commenting on MMS (as it is irrelevant to the current thread)

However looking at the PISS making statement out of blue expecially when suspension of PISS dialogue post 26/11 (and unverlining that terror and PISS cannot coexist) had forced the TSP ISI f****rs to rein in the jihadis.

Now add to that the statement that terror training by pakis donot and willnot influence the PISS process.

And add to that US welcoming the resumption of PISS dialogue.

Add to that the reincreasing voice of porki lovers as in "Aman ki Nirasha".

What does common sense tells atleast me?

Well a surrender signup is in air

[harbans]

Kulhari ji, it's just not MMS. The problem of Pakistan and how to tackle it is across the politcal spectrum. All across the political spectrum have tried being tough and also the Amans. They have not worked in the last 3 decades for sure. And it's doubtful they will work in the future. The Pakistani state we see does absolutely nothing to contain non-state actors or make the arrests we feel they should be making.

This is not too tough to see. That the Pakistani state as it is does not want to be part of the solution to the problems it is exporting in the neighborhood and beyond. Put it like this for simplicity:

1. If we use military means we carry a risk burden and it by no means implies that terror will reduce.

2. If we do the Amans they will talk that unless we hand Kashmir, water, move away frm Afghanistan etc they cannot stop the Jihadi's.

Dilemma is that both these options are just different sides of the same coin that's buying this Pakistani state it's legitimacy.

HT came out with a point counter point articles that was posted here. The dilemma is being expressed in the media. Worth a read. Here's one on rediff:

http://news.rediff.com/column/2010/feb/ ... mirage.htm

My take is..sooner or later India will have to realize it's not going to be possible to live in peace with Pakistan as it is today. That realization will dawn some time soon IMHO.

[kulhari]

My take is..sooner or later India will have to realize it's not going to be possible to live in peace with Pakistan as it is today. That realization will dawn some time soon IMHO.

Harbans ji,

PISS with pakistan is not possible.

The way I see it we need a calibrated approach involving the following steps:
1. A media campaign to make the people realise the pain, death and destruction we have suffered in last 30 years of this undeclared war from porkiland so that "aman ka tamasha" people fail to recruit people for there PISS marches.

2. Rapid modernization and build up police forces including the intelligence agencies to smoke out maximally the terror sympathisers, hideouts and master minds. This must include the Naxals.

3. Demarcating and making the illegal border crossing with Nepal, Bhutan, BD, Burma, China and Srilanka extremely risky by extensive use of what-ever-int in border area.

4. Infiltration of Porki/BD/Nepal with Indian defence agents and supporting the Balochis, Sindhis and Shiite nationalism.

5. Rapidly increasing Indian Defence forces potential (Buying S-400, IAF strength, Indian Artillery and Indian navy's submarine are just few example). Imagine if we have 5000 Bofors guns the porkis would be browning their pants right now.

6. Finally go the extra mile and break the TSP by putting indirect economic stronghold and border pulverisation. Anything that moves within 10km of Indian border should be sent to meet Allah.

We have been paying costs for trying to make PISS with this rabid dog in our neighborhood. For once lets try to finish him of for the sake of real PISS.

[shravan]

what is our govt doing? Holding peace talks with those who have no interest in peace!

Vikram_Sood's Reply

We have got his vision thing. Till one day it will become our nightmare.

[A_Gupta]

http://news.rediff.com/column/2010/feb/ ... mirage.htm

This is an exceptionally good one, because Col Athale participated in the candle brigade and then withdrew when he realized how useless it is.

In June-July 2006, I participated in the goodwill mission between Mumbai and Karachi. Within a few days of our return from a goodwill trip to Karachi, the terrorists struck at Mumbai's local trains on July 11, killing more than 200 innocent people. But such is public memory in India that it has been forgotten totally. The pseudo-peaceniks and sundry busybodies now want Indians to forget the 26/11 Mumbai attacks and continue the peace process with Pakistan.

Let me hasten to add that we met a lot of people of goodwill and peace in Pakistan. But most of them were part of the elite. There is no doubt about their sincerity as well. But there is a total disconnect between the elite and the masses. The biggest problem in the case of Pakistan is that civil society has very little influence over either the masses or the government.

The argument then was and today is -- the jihadis want to derail the peace process, that is why they are doing it but we must continue with normal relations, sporting ties, cultural exchanges et al. All this while the Pakistanis deny any connection/responsibility towards these atrocities. I do not buy this argument. If the peace process is not capable of bringing about these minimum conditions, then it is useless. I publicly disassociated myself from this pointless exercise.

And there is a good soundbite there, too:

Paraphrasing a Mao dictum, the jihadis survive since they swim in a pond of fanatics. Without the latter, like fish out of water, the jihadis would not survive.

[rajpa]

India should create a Non State Actor Apprehension Force (NSAAF) who will have authority to work within PoK and eliminate terrorists targeting India.

[A_Gupta]

Can we have a sticky thread with nothing but
Name, Age, home city
of each person killed by these terrorist attacks?

Finding this info for some of the older attacks may be hard. But this should be done in lieu of a permanent memorial.

To force a change we need to change consciousness as harbans keeps emphasizing. So statistics should be turned back into the original living breathing people. We need something analogous to the Vietnam war memorial or Holocaust Museum in Washington DC. Or the annual reading of names of people killed at the World Trade Center.

[ramana]

You can create it and if there is traction it will stay.

[Rupesh]

Blast at a time when police low on morale

“Ever since the home department decided to hand over an important police station in Pune to a builder despite fierce opposition from the police the morale has been very low. The political pressure that was brought upon the police to hand over the police station to the builder was unprecedented. There was demand for more and better weapons and additional funds for improved intelligence gathering. That was not forthcoming. But priority was given to gift the police station,” a senior IPS official observed.

Yerawada police station, which is located at a prime location, was recently handed over to a builder along with the three acres of land abutting it. In return, the builder is supposed to shift the police station to another location and build a few quarters for the cops. The builder had purchased the neighbouring plot and by merging the three acres of police land would reap huge profit given the prime location of the site.

Pune police commissioner Satyapal Singh, the then additional director-general of police Jayant Umranikar, the present director-general of police A N Roy and the entire police force had stoutly opposed the proposal to give the land to the builder. But the then additional chief secretary (home) Chitkala Zutshi sent a stinker to Roy for daring to oppose the proposal and overruled his well-reasoned objections.

Two NCP politicians had evinced keen interest in helping the builder and had brought tremendous pressure on the police to give in to the proposal. “In Bhiwandi, the police have got the land, but the government is not building a much-needed police station and in Pune it is gifting an existing police station,” a deputy commissioner noted.

[Shameek]

I understand the anger and indignation. But consider the following.

1. A media campaign to make the people realise the pain, death and destruction we have suffered in last 30 years of this undeclared war from porkiland so that "aman ka tamasha" people fail to recruit people for there PISS marches.

People realise the pain, death and destruction. However it is always in response to some act like this. As soon as the furore dies down, people go back to their lives except for those who lost their loved ones. This is not just the common man. It is the govt. and the media too.

2. Rapid modernization and build up police forces including the intelligence agencies to smoke out maximally the terror sympathisers, hideouts and master minds. This must include the Naxals.

This is exactly what was said after the 26/11 attacks. And it probably has improved too. But mordernization alone does not mean power. What the security forces need is power to implement their security measures, power to arrest the delinquents without fear of a rap on the arm from the top. Until they get that all the modern weapons are only a showpiece.

3. Demarcating and making the illegal border crossing with Nepal, Bhutan, BD, Burma, China and Srilanka extremely risky by extensive use of what-ever-int in border area.

What does that mean?

4. Infiltration of Porki/BD/Nepal with Indian defence agents and supporting the Balochis, Sindhis and Shiite nationalism.

Still does not stop them from attacking us. In fact they do it to move focus away from their problems.

5. Rapidly increasing Indian Defence forces potential (Buying S-400, IAF strength, Indian Artillery and Indian navy's submarine are just few example). Imagine if we have 5000 Bofors guns the porkis would be browning their pants right now.

Will not prevent terrorist attacks. None of this can be used against terrorists. And thats the whole point of the proxy war. Keep bleeding us financially and kill our spirit. A knee jerk reaction to go on a buying spree will only mean we line the pockets of US, Russian and other arms exporters. We end up with a lot of equipment which we dont need/want and still does not stop terror attacks. We need to develop our capabilities as we are doing. However we do need to equip our soldiers on the ground with better equipment than the pigs. I remember reading an article where the pigs had better NVGs than our soldiers and hence spotted them earlier.

6. Finally go the extra mile and break the TSP by putting indirect economic stronghold and border pulverisation. Anything that moves within 10km of Indian border should be sent to meet Allah.

I dont know what economic stronghold means. The problem is, the pigs are not the 'run into the open with bomb tied around waist' any more. This is a well planned and hi-tech version of terrorism. Just read the intercepts from the Srinagar attacks. They come with specific objectives and planning in mind and try to execute it such that they cause us maximum damage.

[Tanaji]

What I would like to see is someone filing a civil damage case against Rahul Bhatt since his negligence resulted in David Headley being able to do reconnaissance, map out the target and the resultant deaths.

The link has been proven, I wonder if a Indian court of law can award damages due to loss caused by negligence?

Even if actual damages are not awarded, a lawsuit will result in enough bad publicity for Bhatt.

[Chandragupta]

Why, this is just a dog pooping in my backyard, right? An ugly neighbor's dog that I can do nothing about. But hey, I am not scared of the dog, I'm just worried about it!

Has the realization finally dawned on BRF that people killed in cold blood is not exactly equal to dog poop?!

Too late for that anyways, BRF is no more than a watchdog barking frantically while the ones it wants to protect are happily celebrating Valentine's Day & watching My Name Ijj Khaan, thinking why the stupid dog barks so much.

Chandragupta, you were talking about being scared of Pakistanis. So really, we should have talked about you pooping in your pants.

Oh I am not pooping in my pants Saar, rest assured. If you want to see some real pooping, head to South Block. On second thoughts, I don't think you'd take the trouble, after all, it's just dog poop, right?

[ramana]

To maintain sanity and reduce the ban potential it might be useful to use this feature in BRF.

Managing foes

Gives instructions to ignore posters whom you don't want to follow.

Every time there is TSP inspired blast we lose a couple of members here!

[ramana]

Politicsparty views:

http://www.politicsparty.com/pune_terror.php

Hyper but quite apt.

[A_Gupta]

B. Raman's advice

The Govt. of India should keep an open mind and look into all possibilities and should avoid over or hasty reactions. Reconstruction and investigation of the explosion should have priority and not retaliation against it.

[vera_k]

US journalist claims she saw Pune blast suspect

Mohsina (name changed to safeguard the investigations into the sensitive case be jeopardised. Rediff.com has Mohsina's real name, her contact details and photograph), a young freelance reporter working for various newspapers in the United States, including the Washington Post (her press card reads Georgia Post) told Satyapal Singh at a crowded press conference that she had called two police helpline numbers this morning to report about an 'unusual event' which she witnessed at the German Bakery on February 12, a day before the bomb blast.

The two helpline numbers, which Mohsina got from the internet, were of no help because when she called up, the person at the other end hung up, as he "could not understand her accent".

Two foreigners among nine killed in Pune blast

[Pranav]

The LeT leadership lives just across the border in Lahore. How hard is to keep track of where they go, where they stay. Why can't some standoff missiles (launched within our borders, no need to cross international border with a/c) be used to eliminate them? We can deny we launched the missile. Who can prove it anyhow? And we can talk with Pakistani Foreign Sec and tell him we know where he lives as well.

^^
The main concern would be what if pukes in retaliation take out a member of our royal family or desi elites.

^^^ So, in effect, this is what Desi elitemen are saying: Paki terror controllers can target Desi commoners without fear of retaliation, and in exchange Paki terror controllers should allow Desi elitemen to stay alive and continue partying ...

Wasn't Rahul Baba partying through the night after 26/11? See

Rahul in party mood soon after Mumbai crisis
Mail Today Bureau
New Delhi, December 1, 2008

Even before the tears of Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan’s mother could dry up, Congress general secretary and heir apparent Rahul Gandhi went partying with his pals at a farmhouse on Delhi’s outskirts.

The Prince partied hard, till 5 in the morning, on Sunday at the ‘sangeet’ for the forthcoming wedding of Samir Sharma, his childhood friend. They were at a sprawling farmhouse at Radhey Mohan Chowk, the haven of people who lead charmed lives beyond Chhatarpur.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... risis.html

[Sriman]

US journalist claims she saw Pune blast suspect

They've changed her name but given out her roots and the road on which she lives.

[Pranav]

Politicsparty views:

http://www.politicsparty.com/pune_terror.php

Hyper but quite apt.

This politics party guy is blaming Chidambaram and showing loyalty to Sonia. In fact, it appears that Chidambaram is being systematically hobbled by others. See

‘Big Brother’ fears stall Chidambaram data plan: http://www.hindu.com/2010/02/14/stories ... 660800.htm

[BajKhedawal]

Shiv

I understand your point about continuing perennial terrorism inspite of best counter terrorism mechanism potentially put in place. However a sever kick in the paki nuts is in order for a population of billion+ to stop wringing their hands in a perceived and thus a (mis)-sense of despair. It will restore some self esteem and give direction (set precedence) to counter bigger threats in the neighborhood.

[CRamS]

CRamS, then how do you explain the perpretrator of the Fort Hood shooting?

Anyway, this is OT. The focus is on a suitable response strategy to this attack and nothing else

The Fort Hood shooting only proves my point. Given a chance, there are enough angry Muslims here too who would go crazy and act on their own or would collude with those wanting wreack vengence against US. In US its cleary "us Vs them"; in India there is no "us" and no "them"; and even when it comes to TSP, MMS has repeatdely declared, India's and TSP's destinies are linked.

[Mahendra]

US journalist claims she saw Pune blast suspect

They've changed her name but given out her roots and the road on which she lives.

and also the fact that she hasn't been asked for her help in getting a sketch done

[vera_k]

PS: I do think that we need to ask whether the period between 26/11/2008 and 13/2/2010, which was relatively quiet, was an aberration, or if not, why was it quiet?

It was quiet because there were no talks. The attacks are caused by a resumption of talks, and we can expect many more attacks as long as the talks continue.

[Dipanker]

The LeT leadership lives just across the border in Lahore. How hard is to keep track of where they go, where they stay. Why can't some standoff missiles (launched within our borders, no need to cross international border with a/c) be used to eliminate them? We can deny we launched the missile. Who can prove it anyhow? And we can talk with Pakistani Foreign Sec and tell him we know where he lives as well.

Has the drone pulverization of successive Paki Taliban leaders had an impact on the Paki Taliban? If yes, then this is worth trying.

TTP terrorist attacks in Pakiland are down to practically nil.

[Sanku]

Is Col Purohit out on bail?

No! Sorry, just thought I cracked the whodunnit.

Anyway, who cares I hope the pubs in Pune got security against Shiv Sena for Valentines day.

Enjoy folks

[pgbhat]

Sanku-saar please don't rub it in.

[Muppalla]

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