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Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

derkonig
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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby derkonig » 20 Feb 2010 13:22

chetak wrote:313 has started to appear painted on some autorikshas and taxis in Bangalore.

Watch for it.

Yet no one can question "their" patriotism.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby brihaspati » 20 Feb 2010 17:47

These are actually good signs. The more such signs appear, or the scenario CRamS is projecting - actually happens, the better. If the psec-brigade is actually reading these columns, I would rather say to them - bring it all on. The more they do such stuff, quicker becomes the exposure of the power interests, groups and ideologies who have criminally betrayed their culture and birth society. As long as they don't do this, they survive among us camoflouged and people remain confused. An enemy who shouts from the rooftop about his enmity clears confusion about his identity even if he pretends to belong to your family.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Chandragupta » 20 Feb 2010 18:24

chetak wrote:313 has started to appear painted on some autorikshas and taxis in Bangalore.

Watch for it.


313 as in '313 brigade'? Does this number has a special relevance?

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby brihaspati » 20 Feb 2010 19:02

Islam's first battle (The Battle of Badr) against the "pagan"-Qureysh kin of Muhammad, of Mecca, was fought and won by 313 Muslims according to some hadiths. Certain schools of Shias believe that Imam Mahdi will appear when there are 313 true and sincere Shia followers in the world.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Feb 2010 20:04

chetak wrote:313 has started to appear painted on some autorikshas and taxis in Bangalore.

Watch for it.


Photograph them if you can.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Atri » 20 Feb 2010 20:05

People should be educated about this Islamic symbolism... otherwise it will be moot point...

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby derkonig » 20 Feb 2010 20:06

brihaspati wrote:These are actually good signs. The more such signs appear, or the scenario CRamS is projecting - actually happens, the better. If the psec-brigade is actually reading these columns, I would rather say to them - bring it all on. The more they do such stuff, quicker becomes the exposure of the power interests, groups and ideologies who have criminally betrayed their culture and birth society. As long as they don't do this, they survive among us camoflouged and people remain confused. An enemy who shouts from the rooftop about his enmity clears confusion about his identity even if he pretends to belong to your family.


If a millenium could not enlighten the masses, fat chance it will happen any time soon. The wellbeing & survival of the Indic civilization can not mortgaged to the fond hope of the masses seeing thru the evil being perpetrated by the non-Indics on this land.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Avinash R » 20 Feb 2010 22:23

Pune blast: ATS to question IM terrorist
Pune: In a major breakthrough in the ongoing Pune blast probe, police on Saturday claimed that Shahzad, an Indian Mujahideen terrorist was also involved in the conspiracy. Shahzad who was also linked to Batla House encounter in Delhi was arrested by UP ATS from Azamgarh. According to reports, Shahzad will be brought to Delhi this week for questioning by Maharashtra ATS...

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Feb 2010 23:01

TOI reported the name of "Atul G Anar" as the 30-year old Reliance employee who died in KEM hospital succumbing to injuries sustained in the blast.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 597066.cms
Most other news stories say "Atul Anap".

It was earlier reported that Atul Anap had lost fingers in the explosion, e.g.,
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100216/j ... 111395.jsp
but the same story which mentions life-threatening injuries to others, does not
mention the same for Atul Anap.

Linkedin has a Atul Anap that works for Reliance:
http://in.linkedin.com/pub/atul-anap/B/B17/26B

Facebook also has a Atul Anap, seemingly of Mumbai, but no way to tell for sure.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=630139201

PS: In light of the comment below, I should point out that this could have been by my estimate 90% of BRFers, but for the grace of god.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Last edited by A_Gupta on 20 Feb 2010 23:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Nayak » 20 Feb 2010 23:18

May seem cold and callous to some, I apologise in advance.

I left to Pune on the day after blasts. Concerns were abound in family on us leaving during such stressful times. I assured my folks that days of leaving Pakistani presents in the trains and markets were long past. Now only 5 star hotels and upper crust establishments would be targetted and us poor abduls would be spared from taking a one way premature ticket to jannat.

In response, got a tight slap from Mom for making fun of a serious situation, a shake of head signalling incomprehension from dad and a shwack on my head from sis for putting words such as bomb trains and journey in the same sentence.

In a way I am relieved that atleast us middle class folks are no more in the target sights. I hope the WKK brigade and bollywood bimbos are on the shitlist of these freedom loving religion of piss followers.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Sanku » 20 Feb 2010 23:26

Every one who died in Pune was middle class, including IIT Kgp alumini.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Nayak » 20 Feb 2010 23:33

My apologies sanku saar, but wasnt the place popular with firangs ? Anyways, my sincerest condolences to the victims of govt apathy.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Sanku » 20 Feb 2010 23:41

Nayak wrote:My apologies sanku saar, but wasnt the place popular with firangs ? Anyways, my sincerest condolences to the victims of govt apathy.


Well, yes it was, being bang opposite the Osho Ashram, but as such was haunt of College folks form middle class back grounds (Pune being a educational center) and in general the young professionals (much like yourself)

As an aside, Paki's seem to have developed a fetish for hitting places where I personally have spent a lot of time, Leopold cafe and the Bakery being two. IISc conf center as another.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby harbans » 20 Feb 2010 23:42

Like Sankuji said, all were middle class folks. And most foreigners too would also be middle class bagpacker ordinary Abdul types. Ordinary working folks or as the young IITians and BIT folks just starting their careers.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby sum » 20 Feb 2010 23:59

Sanku wrote:As an aside, Paki's seem to have developed a fetish for hitting places where I personally have spent a lot of time, Leopold cafe and the Bakery being two. IISc conf center as another.

Sanku-ji,
you would mean the rightwing Hindutva terrorists have developed a fetish (if Praveen Swami, Kuldip nayar, many in INC and ~70-80% of our IM population are to be believed).
Please dont defame innocent Pakis when we have such a bloodthirsty majority in our own country!!!

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby vera_k » 21 Feb 2010 00:00

What's being missed is that even the Osho Ashram is not some sort of "elite" watering hole for foreigners the way Taj or Oberoi are. Koregaon Park is indeed one of the more expensive parts of Pune, but the locality would fall bang in the middle of the continuum of class that starts at Lutyens Delhi and ends at your local slum.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Muppalla » 21 Feb 2010 00:20

Regarding Middle class Vs. Elite.

I agree with Nayak. They will hit only where they percieve there will be reaction from Government. Either elite of India or any-class of foreigners are the current and future targets. They need attention after the attacks. If they hit Mumbai commuter trains and buses there will be no reaction. In a way if the middle/lower classes does not mingle with elites or foreigners that are all safe.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Sanku » 21 Feb 2010 00:28

But Muppalla in India the real elite have their own security and what not, and when accessible without many layers of security are usually also in company of many simple middle class, even in Mumbai V incident, many deaths were CST, Leopold Cafe etc, even Taj most deaths were simple middle class, (waiters, workers, avg guest being a middle class Indian there for a special evening -- a la Rangila)

So come what may, its the middle class etc which will be the fodder.

What I think the Jihadi's are doing is actually trying to implement another ==, hey Pakistan is not safe for any non Pakistani (and for any Pakistani) lets scare the whites whom we revere and worship from coming to India.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby CRamS » 21 Feb 2010 00:40

Not a bad Thappad

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby svinayak » 21 Feb 2010 01:18

Sanku wrote:
What I think the Jihadi's are doing is actually trying to implement another ==, hey Pakistan is not safe for any non Pakistani (and for any Pakistani) lets scare the whites whom we revere and worship from coming to India.

Western countries changed their earlier policy and have accepted India as a economic partner. To prevent this the Paki establishment wants to "discourage" visitors from the western countries.

They dont want India to be part of the global economic trading hub and are giving warning to western countries to roll back their policies.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Muppalla » 21 Feb 2010 01:39

Sanku wrote:But Muppalla in India the real elite have their own security and what not, and when accessible without many layers of security are usually also in company of many simple middle class, even in Mumbai V incident, many deaths were CST, Leopold Cafe etc, even Taj most deaths were simple middle class, (waiters, workers, avg guest being a middle class Indian there for a special evening -- a la Rangila)

So come what may, its the middle class etc which will be the fodder.

What I think the Jihadi's are doing is actually trying to implement another ==, hey Pakistan is not safe for any non Pakistani (and for any Pakistani) lets scare the whites whom we revere and worship from coming to India.


Sanku ji,

See the middle and lower classes are colateral damage only. The real targets are the hotels, house of jews. See the later coverage as well. The icons of 26/11 are always Taj but not CST. Also remember and try analyzing the Government's action taken even if it just lip service. Today there is no big deal about the blasts in Jaipur, Hyderabad etc. Everything of the foucs is Mumbai blasts. Even if you go to Hyderabad case study, Gokul chat blast killed a lot as it is always crowded but never it gets into lexicon. For ease

The TSPians know this very well. There will be no direct targets on Middle and lower India as we are used to few years ago. In my view Jehad 1.0 was Punjab, Tiffin box bombs etc. Jehad 2.0 was 1993 type blasts, Akshardham etc. We are in Jehad 3.0 and they will only concentrate on icons of India and centers of global economy in India. They need to hear more of "travel advisories", "cancellation of sporting activities" etc.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby CRamS » 21 Feb 2010 01:52

Acharya wrote:
Sanku wrote:
What I think the Jihadi's are doing is actually trying to implement another ==, hey Pakistan is not safe for any non Pakistani (and for any Pakistani) lets scare the whites whom we revere and worship from coming to India.

Western countries changed their earlier policy and have accepted India as a economic partner. To prevent this the Paki establishment wants to "discourage" visitors from the western countries.

They dont want India to be part of the global economic trading hub and are giving warning to western countries to roll back their policies.


Well said. And the west is indeed forced to evaluate: India's usefulness as a global tarding hub Vs TSP's usefulness as a haven for "good terrorists". Right now its equal equal from west's perspective.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby brihaspati » 21 Feb 2010 02:04

derkonig wrote:
brihaspati wrote:These are actually good signs. The more such signs appear, or the scenario CRamS is projecting - actually happens, the better. If the psec-brigade is actually reading these columns, I would rather say to them - bring it all on. The more they do such stuff, quicker becomes the exposure of the power interests, groups and ideologies who have criminally betrayed their culture and birth society. As long as they don't do this, they survive among us camoflouged and people remain confused. An enemy who shouts from the rooftop about his enmity clears confusion about his identity even if he pretends to belong to your family.


If a millenium could not enlighten the masses, fat chance it will happen any time soon. The wellbeing & survival of the Indic civilization can not mortgaged to the fond hope of the masses seeing thru the evil being perpetrated by the non-Indics on this land.


No, my comment was not meant for a fond hope that the masses see through. It is about justifying future actions, given that we need to prevent external rogues using the excuses of human rights and other such wool to intervene to protect their assets. Secondly the voices that now shout loudly about the "ideology is good - dont demonize it - all this terror stuff is individual deviation and misinterpretation" will be forced to fall silent when the theology appears even from rickshaws or autos.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby harbans » 21 Feb 2010 02:25

I have always believed and said doctrine must be confronted and not faith or individual itself. In a recent ruling a HC gave a similar judgement when some people petitioned for a ban on Islam. Pakistans core issue with India is not Kashmir or water. It's in the doctrine of Ghazwa and Jihad. India would have to confront that core issue with Pakistan if it wants any breakthroughs of a permanent nature. But that's not going to happen, without upsetting a significant section of the IM population that are subservient to the Imam Bukhari's. Many well meaning Muslims themselves are victims of the more pious. It's sad in a way to see that violence gets sanction in doctrine to remove the less pious and Kufr. That part of the doctrine must be confronted and disrespected by the Kufr. Hatred of practitioners is not the path to take.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby derkonig » 21 Feb 2010 03:23

harbans wrote:I have always believed and said doctrine must be confronted and not faith or individual itself. In a recent ruling a HC gave a similar judgement when some people petitioned for a ban on Islam. Pakistans core issue with India is not Kashmir or water. It's in the doctrine of Ghazwa and Jihad. India would have to confront that core issue with Pakistan if it wants any breakthroughs of a permanent nature. But that's not going to happen, without upsetting a significant section of the IM population that are subservient to the Imam Bukhari's. Many well meaning Muslims themselves are victims of the more pious. It's sad in a way to see that violence gets sanction in doctrine to remove the less pious and Kufr. That part of the doctrine must be confronted and disrespected by the Kufr. Hatred of practitioners is not the path to take.


It is one thing to talk of removing a doctrine, quite another when the doctrine is at the heart of the beast. Ghazwa, jeehard, kufr, dar ul harb, taqqiya, kitman all form the core or the heart here. Can't take out the heart without killing the beast.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby vijayk » 21 Feb 2010 03:56

Jarita wrote:Kuldip Nayar needs to be taken to court

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... rism-hs-01

More worrisome ((than Islamic terrrorists) are the Hindu extremists rearing their head. The murder of police officer Hemant Karkare, who was probing the Malegaon blasts, was the doing of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad or Bajrang Dal. Such instances may tell upon our pluralistic polity. The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) may not be siding with the communal organisations openly. But the overall control of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) on these groups endangers our secular ethos.


I think VHP and Bajarang Dal can and should sue him separately for libel. Can Kakare's wife sue him too?

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby vijayk » 21 Feb 2010 04:30

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Video ... urces.html
IM and LeT plotted Pune blast
Aamir Raza Khan, the founding commander of Indian Mujahidden, is the mastermid behind the blasts, security agencies suspect.


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... urces.html

Investigators are claiming to have identified three persons in CCTV footage who may have planted the bomb inside Pune's German Bakery on February 13.

The identification is being seen as a breakthrough which may help the investigators crack the case. Sketches of the suspects are being prepared from the grainy CCTV footage.


Investigators have also identified the shop from where the bombers bought the bag in which they concealed the explosives.


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... urces.html

Aamir Raza Khan, the founding commander of Indian Mujahidden, is the mastermind behind the blasts, security agencies suspect.

Sources say that Raza planned and executed the deadly attacks along with Lashkar-e-Taiba commander-in-chief Abu Al Kama.

Sources reveal that the blast was executed by Raza's trusted lieutinants Iqbal Bhatkal and Riyaz Bhatkal.

Security agencies suspect that an Udupi-based terrorist Shahrukh also played a crucial role in carrying out the blasts.

Security agencies claim that the link was revealed during the interrogation of Anita Das, arrested by Delhi Police on Friday.


Anita, who was arrested along with two foreign nationals, has admitted to her links with several Indian Mujahiddin terrorists including Aamir Raza Khan.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby vijayk » 21 Feb 2010 04:39

Who is Anita Das?

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2002/02/20/st ... 281100.htm

Asif Raza Khan, arrested on October 29 along with Arshad Khan and a woman associate, Anita Das, was the main coordinator for anti-India activities in association with Omar Sheikh and Aftab Ansari, who were working in Pakistan. His interrogation also showed that HUJI and LeT militants had a hideout in Hazaribagh.


Was she released after 2002?

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby JwalaMukhi » 21 Feb 2010 05:48

derkonig wrote:
chetak wrote:313 has started to appear painted on some autorikshas and taxis in Bangalore.
Watch for it.

Yet no one can question "their" patriotism.

Derkoji,
But that question is fantastically and unadulteratedly irrelevant. Most in the media and dhimmis would like this question to be posed as often as possible. Because the answer to this question will lead to the ready made answer, that is palatable to all, but especially to the dhimmis and seculars. The question is trying to seek an answer for generallization, which obviously is designed to mislead and yield conventional wisdom.
Let me explain further. Analysis of data will reveal what isn't so obvious. "Them" individuals do not excercise their independence in making choice during simple process of voting, but rely on the cereberal power of local mullahs. Hence what is reflected is the mind of the mullah expressed through "them". Hence questioning "their" thoughts on more weighty issues is moot. Fatwas issuers would go out of business in a heart-beat if it is not the case.
Hence, the correct question to pose is patriotism of not "them" but of the "mullahs"? More importantly, are there lot of evidence where the "mullahs" have demonstrated putting country's interest when given choice between country's interest versus "ummah's interest".
It would truly be secularism coming of age when the question that you posed becomes actually relevant.

derkonig wrote:If a millenium could not enlighten the masses, fat chance it will happen any time soon. The wellbeing & survival of the Indic civilization can not mortgaged to the fond hope of the masses seeing thru the evil being perpetrated by the non-Indics on this land.

During the millenia many who struck with questions that were designed to reveal answers that did not matter came to different conclusions, from the many who actually posed difficult questions that was designed to reveal solutions came to different conclusions and acted accordingly.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Gerard » 21 Feb 2010 06:04

brihaspati wrote:Islam's first battle (The Battle of Badr) against the "pagan"-Qureysh kin of Muhammad, of Mecca, was fought and won by 313 Muslims according to some hadiths. Certain schools of Shias believe that Imam Mahdi will appear when there are 313 true and sincere Shia followers in the world.


I don't understand what is objectionable or unpatriotic about someone painting this '313' on their vehicle.
Does it have some other meaning other than the return of the Mahdi?

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Pranav » 21 Feb 2010 06:07

JwalaMukhi wrote:More importantly, are there lot of evidence where the "mullahs" have demonstrated putting country's interest when given choice between country's interest versus "ummah's interest".
It would truly be secularism coming of age when the question that you posed becomes actually relevant.


After 26/11, there was refreshing talk from Deoband about the need to hit the Pakis. The statement was that the IMs would fully support any strike on Hafeez Saeed etc.

Of course, the problems associated with the core theology remain unresolved. But the picture is nuanced.
Last edited by Pranav on 21 Feb 2010 06:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Pranav » 21 Feb 2010 06:17

CRamS wrote:can you guys imagine the tizzy India elites will go into, the tizzy MMS/Sonia will go into about "Hindu terrorism", each elite competing with the other in the condemnation and flagellation, and the secularist cacophony will reach a crescendo.


Very expressively put!

Commons get screwed both ways - get blown up in blasts, and also get slandered by the elites.

Sometimes elites actively encourage nut-cases to demonize and slander the commons. Consider for example the assassination of MK Gandhi. It has been used to demonize the commons since independence, and ensured Congress dominance for many decades. I am convinced that the Brits and the Congress elites were very much involved. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassinat ... and_Gandhi
Last edited by Pranav on 21 Feb 2010 06:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby shiv » 21 Feb 2010 06:35

CRamS wrote:can you guys imagine the tizzy India elites will go into, the tizzy MMS/Sonia will go into about "Hindu terrorism", each elite competing with the other in the condemnation and flagellation, and the secularist cacophony will reach a crescendo.


Good try. Hindu right hand does not know what Hindu left hand wants to do. Have you had a look at the Paki thread recently. There is a wish there that Sonia Gandhi's house be attacked by a terrorist and a comforting explanation of why that cannot happen.

Now unless a terrorist group is stupid (which they are not) they would merely conduct one failed attack (two guards and three civilians killed) on No 10 Janpath ensuring that this is blamed on Hindu terrorists forever.

What a joke. No wonder Pakistan finds it so easy to get away..Hindu elites wish for terrorism on someone else but then claim that they are incapable of terrorism because of cowardice. How easy is it to swallow that line?

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby shiv » 21 Feb 2010 06:49

harbans wrote:Like Sankuji said, all were middle class folks.


Harbansji - I have said it before and I will say it again because it needs to be said - not because the elite (us)_ will believe it. We on this forum are hardly middle class. The vast segment of India who can be called "middle class" have a family income in the range of Rs 5000-8000 a month (about US $ 100-150 per month to make it easier for us to understand). They have a TV set and perhaps a two wheel vehicle. A huge proportion of Indians fall in this class or below.

The elites of India generally speak English, visit or work in the West, have family incomes that allow the purchase of car and refrigerator. Currently ownership of a computer and internet connection puts you firmly within elite of India. Indians go to the West and find car and fridge in middle class and think "I am middle class". Bollocks. In India this is elite. Pretty people, Times of India page 3 and socialites of India are also elite - but they are more wealthy than you that is all. That does not make you middle class. It only makes them "super-wealthy elite" while you are just plain vanilla elite. As plain vanilla elite one does meet super wealthy elite and one has friends and acquaintances in that class and read the media that talk about them, even as one claims that one does not belong to that class in a curious act of reverse snobbery. But you are already elite because of your family income, family education and the jobs you do.

But let this information not stop anyone from imagining that he is middle class.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby vera_k » 21 Feb 2010 07:24

^^^

That is the leftie definition of the middle class when those people are simply the poor. The one used by the NCAER assumes the middle class to be those with incomes between $4000 and $21000 per year. The total number of people in this group was about 5% of the population in 2001.

Ownership of a car is the great differentiator between being middle class and rich in India as less than a third of the middle class owns a car while close to 85% of the rich owns one.

Link

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby shiv » 21 Feb 2010 07:42

vera_k wrote:^^^

That is the leftie definition of the middle class when those people are simply the poor. The one used by the NCAER assumes the middle class to be those with incomes between $4000 and $21000 per year. The total number of people in this group was about 5% of the population in 2001.

Ownership of a car is the great differentiator between being middle class and rich in India as less than a third of the middle class owns a car while close to 85% of the rich owns one.

Link

Veraji most Indians are "simply poor" whether they are leftie or rightie. We just don't want to acknowledge that and have ready made excuses to say why the information cannot be right.

When you define "middle class" as the top 5% of the population in terms of income, it means 95% are below that. 95% of India are below middle class in your definition. Taking that as the standard:

1) How does one classify everyone on BRF as middle class without a survey of car ownership that will put them right at the apex of class among Indians. Has anyone done a survey to see how many people have family cars (or their own cars). I have not done a survey but I am alleging that more than 50% f people on here own cars or have access to family cars putting them near the apex of Indian society.


2)Even if people on BRF are all middle class then they still belong to the top 5% of Indians (as per your definition) and claiming they are not elite by Indian standards is hypocrisy of the usual sort that I see.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby vera_k » 21 Feb 2010 07:49

The question was whether the victims at the German bakery were elite or not. The data so far suggests they were either poor or middle class at best. Since the elite in India is only about the 1% of population that makes more than $21,000 / yr. No doubt that a lot of BRFites would qualify as elite using this definition.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby A_Gupta » 21 Feb 2010 07:51

shiv wrote:2)Even if people on BRF are all middle class then they still belong to the top 5% of Indians (as per your definition) and claiming they are not elite by Indian standards is hypocrisy of the usual sort that I see.


For the definition of middle class and elite, income is only part of it. A middle class person can be prosperous but have very little real power. The elite have a good deal of power and are able to make government do their bidding to some extent or the other. Perhaps a good measure of belonging to the elite class is how the police treat you - e.g., if you have a problem to report or e.g., if you are the target of a complaint. Car ownership is a rather silly measure.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby Pranav » 21 Feb 2010 08:36

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote:2)Even if people on BRF are all middle class then they still belong to the top 5% of Indians (as per your definition) and claiming they are not elite by Indian standards is hypocrisy of the usual sort that I see.


For the definition of middle class and elite, income is only part of it. A middle class person can be prosperous but have very little real power. The elite have a good deal of power and are able to make government do their bidding to some extent or the other. Perhaps a good measure of belonging to the elite class is how the police treat you - e.g., if you have a problem to report or e.g., if you are the target of a complaint. Car ownership is a rather silly measure.


Right, a software engineer might have a larger salary than a JNU prof, but the software engineer is common, whereas the JNU prof is definitely elite. Access to media and government power is the key. The Maoists are also elites, because their international backers can force the government to treat them with kid-gloves.

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Re: Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

Postby shiv » 21 Feb 2010 09:22

Pranav wrote:
For the definition of middle class and elite, income is only part of it. A middle class person can be prosperous but have very little real power. The elite have a good deal of power and are able to make government do their bidding to some extent or the other. Perhaps a good measure of belonging to the elite class is how the police treat you - e.g., if you have a problem to report or e.g., if you are the target of a complaint. Car ownership is a rather silly measure.


Right, a software engineer might have a larger salary than a JNU prof, but the software engineer is common, whereas the JNU prof is definitely elite. Access to media and government power is the key. The Maoists are also elites, because their international backers can force the government to treat them with kid-gloves.



Nevertheless throwing the word "elite" and "middle class" around loosely is silly. The "leftist elite" from JNU wearing a kurta and carrying a cloth shoulder bag travels by bus and drinks tea in a roadside tea stall.

The well paid "middle class" ("common") software engineer pays Rs 50 for a tasteless cup in Cafe Coffee Day and hangs out at German bakery.

I find the police example illustrative of the elite/middle class/underclass divide

The elite own the police and have no respect for them. The police are dogs that must obey master.

The middle class believe that the police are supposed to be respectable, but complain that the police are corrupt and pay bribes when needed even as they complain.

The underclass cannot afford bribes and know that the policeman is a fellow dog like them albeit with power. The police get no respect from him and the police give him no respect as he cannot bribe them.

The Indian middle class are the closest to the ideal bogey created in colonial times who expects that the policeman should be a law abiding, law enforcing respectable citizen.


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