The Mughal Era in India

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 10 Jul 2012 21:00

Murugan wrote:prasantji,
My question is still there but in another words, what these mugals called themselves? Mugals? Gazis? Pak muslims? Any reference in naamas or inas? Thismquestion is like what kushans called themselves? Certainly not kushans. It is historians invention. Whether calling chagtai turks mugal is invented by historians?

The word "Mughals" is just the way Persian chroniclers wrote the "Mongols" down. They are the ones who sort of mis-pronouned or say corrupted the term.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 10 Jul 2012 21:00

few cents

1. Marathas entered "north" in 1703 when they crossed Narmada (Nemaji Shinde). They entered GV-politics in 1715 and since this date until 1857, remained one of the decisive players in GV and north. For that they had to sacrifice Hyderabad which they had occupied in course of 27-year war. Looking back, it was a bad decision, but they themselves were in complete disarray with no central authority and two kings claiming to be true heir. Eventually one backed by Mughal faction (Shahu) won. Many factors.

2. This map of mughal provinces, put by ramaY ji is most important from PoV of partition. This map was taken and Lahore and Bangal province were partitioned. Durrand line is also designed to partition kabul and qandahar provinces. that map shows how the gandhara kingdoms shared borders with vaahika pradesh (Punjab) and Paaras.

3. 1737-39 onwards, mughals were mostly limited to red fort and city. Prior to that they had their writ over Punjab (I mean the real writ. They last army died out fighting Nadir shah in 1739-40). As with any empire, they lost out in stages. But there were two major inflection points. Akbar lost the central asian parts inherited by him, but gained elsewhere in India. Aurangzeb lost Gaandhar and later won and lost rest of India simultaneously.

more later...

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 21:06

A book on

Mughal Rajput Sambandh
-Dr. Shyam Singh Ratnawat

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 21:14

Mongol Rajput association is quite old. Older than Babur Humayun Akbar

http://horsesandswords.blogspot.in/2006 ... india.html

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 21:21

The fortress of Chittor finally fell on February 1568 after a siege of four months. The fort was then stormed by the Mughal forces, and a fierce resistance was offered by members of the garrison stationed inside. When the Rajput women were ordered to commit Jauhar (self immolation), Akbar had realized that victory was near and the Mughals launched their final assault over 30,000 inhabitants of Chittorgarh Fort were killed by the victorious Mughal army. Akbar then ordered the heads of his enemies to be displayed upon towers erected throughout the region, in order to demonstrate his authority.[34][35]

If this is true, how come the rajput allies of Akbar could see the massacre of their brethrens? Wasnt this more shameful than just loss of face.

My big question still remains : What were the compulsions of Amber Rajputs to continue alliance for 150+ years. Why they never hesitated killing fellow rajputs or helping mughals doing so?

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 21:28

It is said that the brass candlesticks taken from the Kalika temple after its destruction were given to the shrine of Moinuddin Chishti in Ajmer, a shrine that Akbar vowed to rebuild after his victory.[34][38] Akbar then celebrated the victory over Chittor and Ranthambore by laying the foundation of a new city, 23 miles (37 km) W.S.W of Agra in 1569. It was called Fatehpur Sikri ("city of victory").[39]

In the year 1568, the 26 year old Mughal Emperor Akbar reigned supreme, bolstered by his success, he was looking forward to widespread acclamation as one of the greatest Muslim conquerors, within and beyond his realm, and was given the honorable title Zill-e-Ilahi (Zeal of Allah). He gathered miniature painters, who illustrated the Mughal forces that fought during the Siege of Chittorgarh in the Fatahnama-i-Chittor issued by him after the conquest of Chittor at Ajmer, where he stayed for some time and then returned to Agra, on Ramadan 10, 975.AH/March 9, 1568AD. After Akbar's conquest of Chittor, two major Rajput clans remained opposed to him - the Sisodiyas of Mewar and Hadas of Ranthambore.

Ranthambore Fort was reputed to be the most powerful fortress in Rajasthan, was conquered by the Mughal army in 1569 during the Siege of Ranthambore, making Akbar the master of almost the whole of Rajputana. As a result, most of the Rajput kings, including those of Bikaner, Bundelkhand and Jaisalmer submitted to Akbar. Only the clans of Mewar continued to resist Mughal conquest and Akbar had to fight with them from time to time for the greater part of his reign.[32][34] Among the most prominent of them was Maharana Pratap who declined to accept Akbar's suzerainty and also opposed the marriage etiquette of Rajputs who had been giving their daughters to Mughals. He renounced all matrimonial alliances with Rajput rulers who had married into the Mughal dynasty, refusing such alliances even with the princes of Marwar and Amer until they agreed to sever ties with the Mughals.[40]

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Jul 2012 21:33

pre mughal times, mongols from the jagatai khanate or the ilkhanate partnered with rajputs and defended ranthambore from the delhi turks
i think in those days - pre akbar at least, it was much more of a free for all

incidentally, the british reprisal against the first uprising was a wholesale dismantling of any remnants of mughal power, including the encounter killlings of the remaining mughal princes following the fall of delhi and the wholesale loot and hanging of most remaining mughal nobles

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 10 Jul 2012 21:36

Virendra wrote:
Murugan wrote:prasantji,
My question is still there but in another words, what these mugals called themselves? Mugals? Gazis? Pak muslims? Any reference in naamas or inas? Thismquestion is like what kushans called themselves? Certainly not kushans. It is historians invention. Whether calling chagtai turks mugal is invented by historians?
The word "Mughals" is just the way Persian chroniclers wrote the "Mongols" down. They are the ones who sort of mis-pronouned or say corrupted the term.

They called themselves Chagatai Turks of the lineage of Teymour. They were actually embarassed by the Mongol (Moghol) part of their lineage, and preferred to be called Teymourid Turks.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Jul 2012 21:38

babar himself hated the term mongol

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 21:47

Letter from Aurangzeb to Akbar (his son)

Muhammad Akbar, my son! close to my heart, a piece of my liver [as it were], dear as my life—be assured of and exalted with my sincere kindness, and know:- God be my witness, that I held you dearer and more beloved than all my other sons. But you, through your own ill-luck, were tempted by the deception and stratagem of the Rajputs, those Satans in a human shape, to lose your portion of the wealth of Paradise and to become a wanderer in the hill and wilderness of Misfortune. What remedy can I contrive and what help can I give ? My heart became plunged in extreme sorrow and grief when I heard of your present miserable condition of anxiety, perplexity, ruin and wretchedness. Nay more, life itself tasted bitter to me; what need I say of other things? Alas! a thousand times alas! leaving out of your sight your [legitimate] pride of rank and majesty as a prince and Emperor's son, you in your simplicity took no pity on your own [extreme] youth : you showed no regard for your wives and children, but in the most wretched condition threw [them] into the captivity of those beast-looking beast-hearted wicked Rajputs! And you are roaming in all directions like a polo ball, now rising, now falling, now fleeing!

Jaswant, the chief of Rajputs, assisted and joined Dara Shukoh, [but that prince] met with nothing save humiliation and reverses in consequence. Know for certain [that the same will be your fate, too.] Providence befriend you! God make it your lot to follow the right path.

Jaswant Singh was actually the Maharaja of Jodhpur, and the Rajput rulers of Mewar were considered the Head of all Hindu States (Hinduan Suraj), but in Jadunath Sarkar's estimation of Rajput military power: "[Jodhpur] was the foremost Hindu State of Northern India at this time." The aim of Aurangzeb's Rajput War is described by Jadunath Sarkar as follows: "Mughal traders and Mughal armies would be able to pass easily from the capital [Delhi] to Western India and the Arabian Sea, the proud lord of Udaipur [Mewar] would be taken in flank, and a long wedge of Muslim territory would be driven right across Rajputana, cleaving it into two isolated halves which could be crushed in detail."

Akbar's reply to Aurangzeb

Your Majesty has written, "Jaswant was the chief of the Rajputs; what sort of assistance and support he rendered to Daia Shukoh is known to the world. Hence the words of this false race do not deserve trust." Your Majesty has spoken very well indeed, but has not reached the marrow of the matter. In fact Dara Shukoh bore hatred and antipathy to this race, and what he suffered was the consequence of it. If he had agreed with them from the outset, his affairs would not have come to such a pass.

Former emperors like Akbar had contracted alliance and kinship with this race and conquered the realm of Hindusthan with their help. This is the race with whose aid and support Mahabat Khan made the Emperor Jahangir his captive and meted out due punishment to the tricksters and deceivers. This is the race who, when your Majesty was adorning the throne at Delhi, and the Rajputs [there] did not number more than three hundred men, performed heroic deeds, whose initiative is manifest to the age; such heroism and victory [were theirs] as the commanders of the age have not heard of. Jaswant it was who in the midst of the battle with Shuja [Battle of Khajwa] displayed unpardonable insolence and violence to your Majesty; and yet your Majesty knowingly and deliberately overlooked his act. The same Jaswant it was whom your Majesty won over with many charms and soft speeches and detached from the side of Dara Shukoh, so that victory fell to your side. Blessings be on this race's fidelity to salt, who, without hesitation in giving up their lives for their master's sons, have done such deeds of heroism that for three years the Emperor of India, his mighty sons, famous ministers and high grandees have been moving in distraction [against them], though this is only the beginning of the contest.

And why should it not be so, seeing that in your Majesty's reign the ministers have no power, the nobles enjoy no trust, the soldiers are wretchedly poor, the writers are without employment, the traders are without means, the peasantry are down-trodden? On the Hindu tribes two calamities have descended, (first) the exaction of the jaziya in the towns and (second) the oppression of the enemy in the country.

How happy would it be if Providence so befriends [your Majesty] that leaving this work in the hands of the humblest of your sons, your Majesty seeks the blessedness of going on a pilgrimage to the Holy Cities [Mecca and Medina], and thereby induces the whole world to utter praises and prayers for you! Hitherto your Majesty has spent all your life in the quest of the things of this world - which are even more false than dreams, and even less constant than shadows. Now is the proper time for you to lay in provisions for the next life, in order to atone for your former deeds, done out of greed for this transitory world against your august father and noble brothers in the days of your youth.

From Airawat's Blog horsesandswords

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 10 Jul 2012 22:24

Akbar tells Birbal that he has learnt adding Ku to something makes it bad and Su to something makes it good.

While speaking all this Akbar's Son enters the room, Birbal gets up says Come Come "Suvar" Saheb (which means pig). Akbar gets very angry on this insult, he asks Birbal to explain this. Birbal says Badshah you yourself said Ku means bad and Su means good, then how could I call your son "Kuvar" (a Rajput word for Prince), hence I called him Suvar...

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 10 Jul 2012 22:27

Teacher : who was AKBAR?
Boy : Akbar was gay!!
Teacher : why?
Boy : v hav heard. Laila-Majnu, ......Heer-Ranjha, Adam-Eve, Soni-Mahival & only Akbar-Birbal...

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 10 Jul 2012 22:29

Murugan wrote:Virendraji point noted.
But, why bhagwantdas allied with rajput. That alliance itself was loss of face for bhagwantdas and sons.

I think you mean "why bhagwantdas allied with "Mughals" . Well we've discussed with before at historical battles thread here but will try :
A) Via Babur in 1527 AD not only was Mewar's supremacy in north India as a Rajput state was conclusively over. It also ended a confederacy of Rajput states under the lead of Mewar who was nowhere on the scene to protect the outpost states like Amber after 1527 AD.
B ) During the decades around 1527 Amber was in muddled in political instability due to weak unpopular rulers, unsatisfied feudal nobility and Mewar's increasing domination. Once Babur won, Amber was bang next door to the core Delhi-Agra zone of Mughals, open to full throttle hell fire.
And what did Amber have ? Mewar was reeling after defeat, Marwar had upset everyone else by their acts (sudden rise of Marwar was another peculiar case under Rao Mallinath. Sarkar says that they rapidly grabbed terroritories of friend and foe alike). So all in all .. ziltch !!
Since a long time, there wasn't anymore the stable political unison in Rajputana to ward off external threats. Only reactive confederacies when huge trouble neared home.
Not to mention, this wasn't a good long term strategy.

Murugan wrote:... how come the rajput allies of Akbar could see the massacre of their brethrens? Wasnt this more shameful than just loss of face.
My big question still remains : What were the compulsions of Amber Rajputs to continue alliance for 150+ years. Why they never hesitated killing fellow rajputs or helping mughals doing so?

There are explanations for this. But I will not go down the same road again as I myself am not fully convinced by those explanations. Again, you may visit the historical battles thread for the same (pages in 30s and 40s perhaps).
Rajputana was already fraction-ed and did more so after Akbar applied divide and rule. It became "each to his own".
Though initial association is understandable from the points I placed above. But like I said, Amber drawing blank face to what Mughals did later in rest of Rajputana is not fully defensible. Perhaps in the minds of the elite, brotherhood gave in to political connivance nd they thought they could rule whole Rajputana by Mughal help. One could only guess now, I'd rather not speculate further.
Even today Amber Rajputs are taunted and criticized by remaining clans, over their Mughal alliance (and actions thereof).

From Airawat's Blog horsesandswords

It seems you have reached the right place.

Regards,
Virendra

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 10 Jul 2012 22:36

Virendra-ji

Airawat-ji has a long association with BRF. He would have shed more light on mugal rajput sambandh in his own lucid style.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jul 2012 22:38

Murugan wrote:prasantji,

.....
My question is still there but in another words, what these mugals called themselves? Mugals? Gazis? Pak muslims? Any reference in naamas or inas? Thismquestion is like what kushans called themselves? Certainly not kushans. It is historians invention. Whether calling chagtai turks mugal is invented by historians?

****
Till date i was wondering how come marwadi businessmen like jagatseth and omi chand were based at kolkata 300 years ago. But now i can connect the dots. Rajputs were governers of bengal in akbar to aurangzeb's time they must have had taken alongwith them businessmen and other marwari menpower

The Mughals were called Chagatai Turks. Contemporary rajas used to call them Chagatai Sultans of Dilli.

Genghis Khan and his progeny were the Mongols.

During the Sultanate period there were many Mongol invasions. Iltumish and Balban were prominent among those who fought against these invasions.

The Mughals were mistakenly called that name as they were from similar area as the Mongols.

The term Great Moghul was a colonial merchant term.

---------
Add to the Rajput association with Bengal, merchants also traded with the English.

Merchants were also financiers of most of the rulers.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 10 Jul 2012 22:52

Two reasons I understood for Rajputs political-military decline later on:
1. European technology brings full time gunpowder to India against which the favorite frontal Cavalry charges of Rajputs became suicidal and no Rajputs didn't evolve with these changes timely

2. Europe being a naval power. The ancient trade routes under Rajput influence became obsolete/inactive. This added to the financial woes of Rajput Kingdoms.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 10 Jul 2012 22:58

Murugan wrote:Virendra-ji

Airawat-ji has a long association with BRF. He would have shed more light on mugal rajput sambandh in his own lucid style.

Exactly. Only that he doesn't visit these days .. been months actually

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Jul 2012 23:50

virendra - it was drilled musket firing infantry and modern lightweight artillery, not just gunpowder per se
british and french advisors were much in demand by kings and princes to manage these forces - which is how the companies got their foothold
at the battle of plassey, the fiercest fighting was between english musketry and french artillery

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 11 Jul 2012 00:00

What might have been some of the factors behind the Indian armies not modernising, inspite of their wealth and frequent interaction with European mercenaries, but other Asian armies such as the Japanese going ahead and not only modernising but also establishing a military-industrial complex?

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 11 Jul 2012 00:54

Stagnant wisdom stuck in the past.
Why do you think the Indians stopped exploring and liaising with the outside world?
Why do you think the Islamic invaders could sweep in as if they knew India like the back of their hand?
Why do you think the likes of Mahmud Ghazni had a proper secret intelligence department whose spies would scout into unexplored territory and provide valuable info on people, terrain etc. While the Indian Kings never bothered ?
We were content in our own world but we forgot that there are others who may not be so, who may be looking for better fruits.
They set the game in our yard and they set the rules of the game too. Points of introspection

Regards,
Virendra

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jul 2012 02:06

Some considerations over the issues being raised:

(1) Muslim bashing : The whole of the Muslim part of the Mughal establishment had persistently used Islam, and all its statutes, precedences and traditions whenever it suited them in their politics and military objectives.

But apart from such so-called "real-politik" justifications provided by us now, there specific instances of the Mughals consistently following Islamic doctrine even when it was not necessarily in their own political or economic interests. When it came to choosing between Islam and the non-Muslim - Mughals always chose Islam. [Din-i-ilahi is controversial and not necessarily anti-Islamic.]

Some examples :
(a) Mughal policy of denying marriages between Muslim women and Hindu men who remain unconverted. It was not a policy onlee meant for royal jenanas - the excuse we provide now on behalf of the mughals. [The story of ShaJehan allowing a Hindu pundit to marry a Muslim girl but who were rejected by the so-called stiff-upper lipped Kasi Brahmins does not appear in the surviving works of the pundit himself. On the other hand their firmans to prevent Muslim women coming into Hindu hands exist.]
(b) Mughal policy of enslavement and selling of Hindu men, especially Hindu women explicitly for Muslim buyers.
(c) Mughal export of Hindu "slaves" into CA.
(d) Mughal imports of over-priced items of Islamic theological connection from ME.
(e) Mughal policy of specifically allowing ME adventurers, vagabonds, and low-lifes with pattas to clear forests and settle onlee Muslims in the newly opened up frontiers of South-east Bengal.

(2) Mughal rule showed a continuous decline in the economy of the country. Their taxation policies actually resulted in land alienation, abandonment of agriculture and settlements, slavery as a financial and state institution, export of human capital in the form of slave exports to CA, and general growth of state institutionalized corruption [the formal bribery culture which we still inherit].

(3) Mughal or Turkish blood lust for brothers cannot be traced to the pre-Islamic pagan period of both Mongols and Turks. They were mostly peaceful people in that period - especially the "Turks" - the reason the were defeated by mostly deceptive and compared to those times, "unethical" practices [ they were immoral or unethical even in those societies and hence they could not imagine pre-empting such strikes]. In fact some of the CA steppe legends point to exact opposite. That one of the legendary ancestor's mother actually chastized the hero-to-be as a teenager when he killed his younger bro. The politics of the times required the family to hold fast together. In fact "forgiving" was more the norm among brothers - and indicates that the tribal tradition put more esteem on such "forgiving" and hence shrewd leaders bowed down to it.

The sibling rivalry is something peculiarly Islamic in origin - in the sense that theological justifications began to be used tracing to the Cain+Abel symbolism. They used the Judaic memes for this purpose, not seen before in this way in that region.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jul 2012 02:16

Virendra wrote:Stagnant wisdom stuck in the past.
Why do you think the Indians stopped exploring and liaising with the outside world?
Why do you think the Islamic invaders could sweep in as if they knew India like the back of their hand?
Why do you think the likes of Mahmud Ghazni had a proper secret intelligence department whose spies would scout into unexplored territory and provide valuable info on people, terrain etc. While the Indian Kings never bothered ?
We were content in our own world but we forgot that there are others who may not be so, who may be looking for better fruits.
They set the game in our yard and they set the rules of the game too. Points of introspection

Regards,
Virendra

This is OT. But that Indians lost out because they had become "other-wordly", "inward-looking" or "stagnant" is a myth constructed to justify the right-of-conquest theories of the west and the ME. There is no proof of such attitudes - in the format that archeologists or historians demand if any criticism is made about Islamic atrocities.

No, all the evidence available makes sense onlee if we accept that the ahimsa-churches which had developed in close collaboration with the imperial and feudal ambitions, and the foreign-trade mercantiles as well as financiers who benefited from the transnational flow of bullion and trade - who undermined the military preparation and mindset of the people.

Much less than the "spirituality" argument, it is the mercantile interest bit - the overt propaganda about the immorality of war and bloodshed, and the involvement of the sanghas as financial centres, connected to foreign trade - narrative records of elite urban Buddhist merchant behaviour in collaborating actively with invaders like qasim - all shows, it was the fear of loss of profits that drove preventing fighting/repulsion.

The mercantiles were scared of losing their foreign markets and sources of profits if Indian regimes resisted or counter attacked. They also probably reached the universal conclusion reached universally by mercantiles everywhere that - everything in life is a saleable commodity, nation, family, wife, children, belief, people.

The Amberites who collaborated were not "spiritual" inward lookers.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jul 2012 02:40

Walking past history at Lodhi Gardens
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Del ... 619697.ece

“Tughlaq, Lodhi, and Syed – these Afghan dynasties were here before the famous Mughul, Babur of the house of Timur,”

The first stop is the tomb of Syed Mohammed Shah made up of quartzite stone and with its pillars slightly slanted. “He was not very rich; therefore the tomb lacks grandeur, although the tomb built on raised platform indicates high nobility.” The earlier Islamic rulers before the Mughuls did not have the resources to afford grandeur. They also had a reputation for intolerance, but could not help but be affected by local Hindu influences, at least in the field of architecture.

“The pillars have the Hindu pot of prosperity mixed in with the Islamic arches and domes. Also visible is an embellishment of leaves, usually seen in entrances to Hindu temples and wedding houses.”

“His mother was not Muslim and like may children of mixed religions; he too, tried to make up for the lack of a Muslim mother by being more intolerant of other religions.”

Unfortunately, the many graves in each tomb have unknown histories, they might or might not have belonged to the families of the emperors past ..

needs to decipher many things here

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jul 2012 02:42

One thing they [arguably important ones] strongly preach and practice.. since they started saying AoA .. destroy all indic structures. the last one being the bamiyan bhuddha statute.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jul 2012 04:39

Prasant wrote:What might have been some of the factors behind the Indian armies not modernising, inspite of their wealth and frequent interaction with European mercenaries, but other Asian armies such as the Japanese going ahead and not only modernising but also establishing a military-industrial complex?

Please read the wiki article on Babur(who introduced Ottomon trained artillery), Humayun(who introduced camel mounted guns etc), Akbar(who started royal mfg of artillery in Jaipur).

Stagnaton was due to no serious rival to the Mughals.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 11 Jul 2012 05:17

^^And then these lost to the Europeans who came with more advanced weapons and techniques. (Also, the europeans didnt care about the local populace - civilian collateral. Though this is a weak argument in many ways since the Indian soliders from one part looted - on orders - others in other parts of India, or shelled their homes etc.).

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 11 Jul 2012 09:15

brihaspati wrote: This is OT. But that Indians lost out because they had become "other-wordly", "inward-looking" or "stagnant" is a myth constructed to justify the right-of-conquest theories of the west and the ME. There is no proof of such attitudes - in the format that archeologists or historians demand if any criticism is made about Islamic atrocities.

No, all the evidence available makes sense onlee if we accept that the ahimsa-churches which had developed in close collaboration with the imperial and feudal ambitions, and the foreign-trade mercantiles as well as financiers who benefited from the transnational flow of bullion and trade - who undermined the military preparation and mindset of the people.

Much less than the "spirituality" argument, it is the mercantile interest bit - the overt propaganda about the immorality of war and bloodshed, and the involvement of the sanghas as financial centres, connected to foreign trade - narrative records of elite urban Buddhist merchant behaviour in collaborating actively with invaders like qasim - all shows, it was the fear of loss of profits that drove preventing fighting/repulsion.

The mercantiles were scared of losing their foreign markets and sources of profits if Indian regimes resisted or counter attacked. They also probably reached the universal conclusion reached universally by mercantiles everywhere that - everything in life is a saleable commodity, nation, family, wife, children, belief, people.

The Amberites who collaborated were not "spiritual" inward lookers.

I'm not talking about spiritually inward attitude. It is on strategic, social and political lines. And no it doesn't justify invaders actions but makes the same a lot more easier to happen.
Everyone has a weakness, however civilized or barbaric a civilization may be. By not being outward looking (such as employing efficient spy systems) we failed to see their weaknesses, the dangers they posed and cope with it. OTOH the enemy did the same things correctly and cashed in on our weakness. There is no shame in accepting that.
That we were a resolute civilization still, is verified by the fact that it took them more than 5 centuries to annex and rule a region inside India. In stark contrast to Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran. Likewise almost everywhere else the resistance ends in a few days/months/years.
Yet it doesn't mean that we should look the other way when it comes to analyzing our follies.

Regards,
Virendra

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 11 Jul 2012 10:07

Regarding Mughals known as Chagtai Sultan or Chagtai Turks

1) GoI History text books has so far cheated the people of India by calling them Mughals in totally unhistorical, unfounded terms

2) Facts such as Killing of Innocent inhabitants of Chittorgarh and barbarically displaying their cut heads on tower are taken as 'noble' acts? by GoI and calling this Akbar the murderer Great. On what account?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Jul 2012 12:35

the huge pyramids of heads was a speciality of timur - amongst his many other brutalities. successors would seek to imitate

brihaspati-ji - i have no problem with being factually correct about the bigotry, intolerance and extreme prejudice shown by muslim rulers and invaders against india and indians (and believe me, I have read plenty about it). however, i think we should be cautious not to allow that discussion to spill over into a present day political context and in my opinion derail a discussion on history

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 11 Jul 2012 12:47

GOI fed history such as the one in schools is an over softened version prepared by our leftist friends.

By the way Akbar is one of the white wash cases of our history.
He was as hard handed and extremist as any other invader until he reached old age and his softening culminated into Din-e-Ilahi.
The so called dismal end made him a subject of criticism in extremist muslim circles (of even present day).
Contrary to what people believe, he kept toggling the Jaziya on and off.
He ordered the massacre of 30,000 defense less civilians in an already fallen fort of Chittor (quoted from his own letter ‘Fatehnama-i-Chittor’ compiled in the list of manuscripts called “Munshat-i-Namakin”). Google the letter, there’s a translation available on net.
After the summary masacre he goes straight to Ajmer on pilgrimage .. "Nau so choohe kha ke billi Haj ko chali".
It happened once that on a visit somewhere, he was approached by 2 feuding groups of brahmin priests for division of some funds/treasure. And what does our kind emperor do to resolve it?
Akbar had them equipped with weapons and made them fight like Gladiators. As and when men fell on any side he would reinforce with his muslim soldiers and the fight would go on. Even contemporary muslims chroniclers have recorded that the emperor thoroughly enjoyed the games. No prizes for guessing what happened to all the priests or where the money went. I can furnish more specifics on this one if required. I can also provide a muslim scholar's translation of Fatehnama-i-Chittor that I found on net and save with me.
Just because he was diplomatic when it suited him and wanted to rule the whole of India doesn’t make me respect him as a great King.
At the best he was patchy and not much better than his bigoted inheriters like Aurangzeb.

I'm sorry if this seems to be is turning into some kind of a bashing thread. For some things there's just no escape but telling the bare truth to set the record straight.

Regards,
Virendra

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 11 Jul 2012 14:20

Virendra-ji

Pl provide translation of Fatehnama-e-chittor.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 11 Jul 2012 14:35

These were clauses in Jiziya Tax as implemented by pre Akbar sultans and Aurangzeb

1. According to this tax Hindus are not allowed to build new temples. Nor are they allowed to repair the damaged ones.

2. Muslims have complete right to stay in any of Hindu places of worship at their discretion. If it so happens that muslim has to stay at Hindu's place as a guest, Hindus should treat Muslim as a royal guest.

3. Hindus are barred from naming their children with any muslim names.

4. Hindus cannot bear arms. Nor can they bear any jewel studded rings.

5. Hindus cannot stay very close to Muslim household.

6. If someone dies in Hindu household, they are not allowed to carry out their funeral rights with all its elaboration, nor can they cry out loud.

7. Hindus cannot celebrate their festivals with all their pomp and colour.

8. They should pay stipulated amount of their income to Islamic state for permitting them to follow their infidel religion.

9. Hindus should show utmost reverence and respect towards Muslims.

10. Conversion of Hindus to Islam is a holy deed and is to be sponsered and supported by state. Reconversion from Islam to Hinduism is strictly prohibited and punishable by death penalty.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 11 Jul 2012 15:24

Atri-ji, could you please provide a source for that?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Jul 2012 15:24

^^^ and so despite hundreds of years of mass killings, deportations, repression and denial of civilisational norms, the core indic civilisation continued to survive and thrive and prosper. so as others have said - islam failed to conquer hindustan despite strenous efforts

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 11 Jul 2012 16:11

Because we had Ranaprataps, Shivaji, Lachits etc despite they had Mansingh, Jaisingh, Ram singhs.

After that another onslaught came from europe and we had Bagat singh, Azad, Subhash Babu, Sardar, Tilak and Gandhi

Then secular came and there are rajmata, kuvar, diggies, piggies, empties etc, and we have anna, baba and sri sris?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jul 2012 16:33

^sounds like we (thread mullahs) will be the only ones left to be mentioned in the future.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 11 Jul 2012 18:35

Prasant wrote:Atri-ji, could you please provide a source for that?

I got it from second volume of "Marathi Riyasat" by G.S.Sardesai... Will search for the primary source cited in that book and let you know.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jul 2012 19:22

Virendra wrote:
brihaspati wrote: This is OT. But that Indians lost out because they had become "other-wordly", "inward-looking" or "stagnant" is a myth constructed to justify the right-of-conquest theories of the west and the ME. There is no proof of such attitudes - in the format that archeologists or historians demand if any criticism is made about Islamic atrocities.

No, all the evidence available makes sense onlee if we accept that the ahimsa-churches which had developed in close collaboration with the imperial and feudal ambitions, and the foreign-trade mercantiles as well as financiers who benefited from the transnational flow of bullion and trade - who undermined the military preparation and mindset of the people.

Much less than the "spirituality" argument, it is the mercantile interest bit - the overt propaganda about the immorality of war and bloodshed, and the involvement of the sanghas as financial centres, connected to foreign trade - narrative records of elite urban Buddhist merchant behaviour in collaborating actively with invaders like qasim - all shows, it was the fear of loss of profits that drove preventing fighting/repulsion.

The mercantiles were scared of losing their foreign markets and sources of profits if Indian regimes resisted or counter attacked. They also probably reached the universal conclusion reached universally by mercantiles everywhere that - everything in life is a saleable commodity, nation, family, wife, children, belief, people.

The Amberites who collaborated were not "spiritual" inward lookers.
I'm not talking about spiritually inward attitude. It is on strategic, social and political lines. And no it doesn't justify invaders actions but makes the same a lot more easier to happen.
Everyone has a weakness, however civilized or barbaric a civilization may be. By not being outward looking (such as employing efficient spy systems) we failed to see their weaknesses, the dangers they posed and cope with it. OTOH the enemy did the same things correctly and cashed in on our weakness. There is no shame in accepting that.
That we were a resolute civilization still, is verified by the fact that it took them more than 5 centuries to annex and rule a region inside India. In stark contrast to Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran. Likewise almost everywhere else the resistance ends in a few days/months/years.
Yet it doesn't mean that we should look the other way when it comes to analyzing our follies.

Regards,
Virendra

I am not disagreeing with the weakness. My post was about wrong reasons or sources being attributed for such weakness. All the disinterest/inwardness/stagnation bits cannot be directly supported by historical evidence, or even narrative sources. What does come out is

(1) regime/royalty/state dependence and patronage of mercantiles with foreign trade links
(2) convergence of Buddhist/Jaina establishments/leadership - especially elite Buddhists in the western parts of India, with foreign trade lobby and mercantile interests.
(3) collaboration by Buddhist elite with Islamics against perceived non-Buddhist assertion or attempt at political assertion.

There are crucial clues ignored in the standard propaganda about this: the role of urban Buddhists of Nirun in Sindh in secretly negotiating with Baghdad, and helping out in Qasim's adventure, attempt to pacify and disarm resisting towns using theological persuasion, the association of urban Buddhist collaborators with "lavish houses/slaves/wealth", report of declining sanghas and appeal of Buddhism in the countryside by Hieun Tsang contrasting with growth of Nilakantha temples - and singnificantly the reported growth of Buddhist active iconoclasm in the Sindh region in the early Islamic era.

Regarding Mughal and Sultanate collaborations from non-Muslims, we should look at internal factional politics of the time even among the Rajput clans.

One of the things to note regarding this case about Amberites in regards to "wimmin" handover, it might have come out of a growing precedence in the late late sultanate period. Here both Hindus and Muslims exchanged women of the other. There are known instances where a Muslim ruler had handed over Muslim women [we dont know whether they were converted Hindu girls in the first place] as rewards to his Hindu "captains" [Medini Rai]. Such instances were smaller in number compared to "Hindu" girls being appropriated by Muslim rulers but it seems such exchanges began to grow in the very late sultanate - especially in the last 60-80 years before Babarite incursion.

I feel we should not add to the propaganda by which the real causes are covered up with a deliberate fuzz about "disinterestedness". That is a convenient interpretation put forward by our p-sec historian lobby, without much evidence along the lines they themselves demand for establishment of such "truths".

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 11 Jul 2012 19:45

Atri wrote:
Prasant wrote:Atri-ji, could you please provide a source for that?
I got it from second volume of "Marathi Riyasat" by G.S.Sardesai... Will search for the primary source cited in that book and let you know.

Thank You, that will be very great indeed!

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 11 Jul 2012 23:17

Murugan wrote:Virendra-ji
Pl provide translation of Fatehnama-e-chittor.

http://voiceofdharma.in/the-calcutta-qu ... as-history whose citation is - Proceedings of Indian History Congress, New Delhi, 1972, translated and annotated by Ishtiaq Ahmed Zilli, pp. 350-61.
Various three digit numbers found below are of the citations. You can visit the original link above to reach the citation details. Its worth a full read so I'm not highlighting anything.
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‘“Praise be to Allah who made good His promise, helped His servant, honoured His soldiers, defeated the confederates all alone, and after whom there is nothing.”128 All Praise and thanksgiving behoves that great Opener (fattah) of forts and kingdoms, in whose grasp are the keys of the conquests of the just and religious Sultans, and with whose patent of favour and authority are decorated the manshurs of the Khilafat and sovereignty of the victorious emperors. The Merciful one (Karim) whose omnipotence has ensured the victory of the believers through the promise: “to help believers is incumbent upon us,”129 the Omnipotent one who enjoined the task of destroying the wicked infidels on the dutiful mujahids through the blows of their thunder-like scimitars laid down: “Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands and He will lay them low and give you victory over them.”130“Glorified is He, and High Exalted from what they say,”131 “His sovereignty is not dependent on any friend and helper.”

‘Whereas the Sovereign one, universal be His bounty and exalted His glory, has, in conformity with “I am to appoint thee a leader of the mankind”,132 assigned to us government of the mumalik of Hindustan which is one of the biggest countries of the world, and the Munshi of the office (diwan khana) of munificence and the Supreme Sovereign has adorned the radiant mandate (manshur) of our Khilafat and monarchy with the Parwana “Surely we established him in the land”133and decorated it with the ornament of “That is the bounty of Allah, which He giveth unto whom He will”.134 All the people who are Allah’s trusts, being in the security of Peace from the hardships and misfortunes of the age, are busy in discharging the obligations of obedience and worship of the Almighty under our benevolent Protection, we deem it our duty to render thanks and express gratitude for this great favour. In accordance with “Proceed whither you wish, you are victorious,” in whatever direction we Proceed fortune and felicity come forward to greet us and whither we turn the reign of our resolution the success and victory hasten to our Presence. In conformity with the happy injunction – “This is of the grace of my Lord that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful”135 - we spend our precious time to the best of our ability in war (ghiza) and Jihad and with the help of Eternal Allah, who is the supporter of our ever-increasing empire, we are busy in subjugating the localities, habitations, forts and towns which are under the possession of the infidels, may Allah forsake and annihilate all of them, and thus raising the standard of Islam everywhere and removing the darkness of polytheism and violent sins by the use of sword. We destroy the places of worship of idols in those places and other parts of India. “The praise be to Allah, who hath guided us to this, and we would not have found the way had it not been that Allah had guided us.”136

‘The purport of the discourse is that during these victorious times, after the elimination of Ali Quli and (his) ungrateful faction we arrived at the Capital Agra like “the noble, victorious”,137 and with a view to augment the materials of our recreation of hunting of elephants we encamped in the confines of Sivi Supar and Gagrun which are on the border of the country of Chitor. There it was brought to our notice that Rana Udai Singh, may Allah annihilate him, from whom it was expected that he would come forward to welcome, pay respects and kiss the royal threshold or would send his son with Peshkash, has adopted, due to excessive pride and conceit, an obstinate and arrogant attitude. (He) is collecting provisions in the fort of Chitor which is his hereditary place of residence and is distinguished in the forts of India in strength and grandeur, with the intention of entrenching himself there. Since the thoughts of war (ghiza) and Jihad dominated the enlightened mind, it (Rana’s behaviour) made the King angry and increased (his) zeal for the divine religion. Despite the fact that most of the royal troops had returned to their Jagirs after the last victory and only a few, who happened to be present at the Capital, accompanied the royal cavalcade on this hunting (excursion), we turned our rein to suppress that infidel. Fearful of the approach of the imperial standards he left his uncle, Sahidas Jaimal and Udiban Patta who are renowned for their valour among the infidels, may Allah forsake them and lead them to the abode of perdition, and who are considered to be equal to a thousand horsemen in intrepidity and prowess, with five thousand chosen Rajputs, one thousand troops from his (Rana’s) own contingent and ten thousand other men to guard the fort. (The Rana) himself hastened with his troops to Udaipur and Kombalmir which are located in the security of the mountains and jungles. When at the town of Rampur, which is one of the well-known towns attached to Chitor, it became known that he was entertaining such plans, the royal mind decided upon subjugating the fort (of Chitor) with the divine help and only then to take other steps that may appear feasible. In this way we arrived in front of the fort with the intention of besieging it on Thursday, 20 Rabi II/Oct. 24, 1567. A fort rose in view such as Alburz with all its majesty would appear an insignificant rock at its foot and Tur and Hindukush would fit as walls in its rampart. Its canopy vies with the Crystalline sphere in its height. Its circumference is about three farsangs and the calculators are unable to count its battlements.

‘Though the siege of the fort looked impossible, but by the grace of Almighty and with the secret help of the accomplished people, any direction that we have taken we have achieved there what we have wished; the very same day we inspected the surroundings of the fort carefully, and entrusted each place to one of the courageous servants (Khans, Sultans and Amirs) of the exalted court who were present. The mountain traversing warriors, who brave the fields of battle and seek Jihad with all their heart and soul and consider martyrdom to be the greatest reward in this as well as the other world, sought permission to take themselves to the towers and fortifications and putting their trust in Allah and relying on the divine help, which is the source of strength to the imperial authority, carry out brave assaults and bring the fort under control by force. Since those ignoble people had collected such large quantities of weapons for defending the fort like mortars (deg), zarbzan, cannon (top), matchlock (tufang), catapult (manjaniq), jarr-i saqil, naphtha (naft) and nawak that would last for thirty years even if continuously used, and since they had great confidence in these weapons and in the strength of the fort as well as their own prowess, we did not let them (the royal officers) fight with a view to protecting the people of Islam, may Allah preserve them till the day of resurrection, lest some of them may get killed in rashness. (We) sent for the dragon-like rads (cannon), mortars and other pieces of artillery which were left at the capital. We also ordered the manufacture of cannon and mountain-breaking mortars in the camp and decided that tunnels be dug and after the arrival of battering ram (sarkob) and sabat (covered passage) an attack be launched. We appointed some troops of the left wing to sack, kill and (take) captives the people of Udaipur, and the troops and men of Rana who were there while he himself was perched at a distance of ten Kos. We sent another army to plunder and sack Rampur. The troops returned with immense booty after despatching many of the worthless infidels to the abode of perdition. After the arrival of the artillery (topkhana), completion of the covered passage (sabat), explosion of the mines causing conflagration and (the consequent) blowing up of the towers and battlements, we directed the troops to establish themselves at the foot of the rampart and surround the fort from every side. The doomed ones (Rajputs) being fully informed this time of the strength and prowess of the army of Islam and the asperity and haughtiness of their ruler they started imploring for intercession and respite with abject submission and some of the chiefs came out (with this petition). Notwithstanding the fact that they had caused death of many people of Islam both nobles and common soldiers, with matchlock-fire, continuous showering of stones through the manjaniq, they sued (for peace) on such impossible terms which could not be conceded. They were permitted to return. Next day we went in person to the sabat of Muhammad Qasim Khad, mir-i bahr, which was nearest to the fort and issued orders for Jang-i Sultani to be launched.

‘The armies of Islam. placing their reliance in (the revelation) “Allah is sufficient for us and most excellent protector”,138 fearlessly and boldly commenced the assault. Within (the fort) the vigilant bands of jew-like infidels set ablaze the fire of conflict and brawl by discharging fire-raining manjaniqs and cannon (top) one after the other. The lions of the forest of intrepidity and the panthers of the mountain of bravery, in their extreme courage stretched their coveting hands to the Sash of the Constellation Orion and with great expedition snatched the diadem from the head of Bahram.

‘In conformity with the commandment, “And prepare against them what force you can,”139 the troops excelled each other and with complete unity betook themselves to the towers and the walls of the fort that were breached by the artillery fire. From that multitude, groups like the pigs bit by arrows rushed out of doors and blocked the entry of the combatants. In return they (the royal troops) fought back by throwing arrows and stones and scattered those retreating ones (the Rajputs). They sent a tremor through the ranks of the enemy with incessant and frightful cannonade setting fire to the harvest of their lives.

‘Three days and nights passed in this manner. The two sides did not stop fighting even for a moment. All the attempts of these fox-like people at fraud and deception were frustrated by the lions of the jungle of intrepidity. At last on the night of Tuesday, 25th of Shaban, 975 A.H. (23 February 1568) in conformity with “…they shall not be able to ward off the fire from their faces nor from their backs, nor shall they be helped”140 the continuous rain of fiery balls and cannonade became so intense in conformity with “Nay, it shall come on them all of a sudden and cause them to be confounded”141 that those condemned ones were no longer able to resist. The call from beyond – “If ye help Allah, He will help you and will make your foothold firm”142 - was coming to the exalted hearing and every moment the Divine Inspirer made audible the good tidings: “Now surely Allah’s help is nigh.”143 The revengeful warriors and the brave ones skilled in the use of daggers, deadly set against the enemy and drenched in the blood, delivered concerted assault and succeeded in removing the wooden planks with which those accursed ones had blocked the breaches. Seeing this, Jaimal, one of the three chiefs, who had taken the lead in the battle and was looking after the fort from the beginning to the end advanced with a body of men to stop the breach. In the meanwhile some artillery men belonging to that wretched band fired their guns one after the other (and in their flashes) Jaimal, and those accompanying him could be seen (from afar). As for the last three days and nights we have been present there (battery of Qasim Khan) often firing with muskets and arrows and since it was destined for Jaimal that he should hasten to the lowest parts of hell at our own Allah-worshipping hands, when he came in view the matchlock (tufang) we were holding, was ready as is said, “When Allah wills any-thing, He provides its means.” No sooner he was seen and the gun discharged then the worthless infidel was struck in forehead and hearing the call, “where so ever you may be, death will overtake you, even though you were in lofty towers,”144 proceeded to the abode of perdition. This caused great consternation among the high and low of that cattle-like community. (Subsequently) the other chiefs continued to resist but they could not repulse the brave from the openings. At the dawn, the excellent archers whose skill is such that they could pierce the eye of an ant at dark night and the lancers who could pick up the crumbs of the breach from the ground, putting the elephants in front delivered another assault. (They) forced their entry into the fort through sheer bravery and prowess and started discharging arrows and fighting with lances.

‘The hand of destiny had covered the deceitful eyes of that erroneous, arrogant and scanty host with the nocturnal blindness of ill-luck “And they thought that there would be no affliction and so they became blind and deaf”145 and had blocked upon them the way of success and escape in accordance with “They could neither go forward nor turn back.”146The people of Islam were busy praying: “Our lord! bestow on us endurance, make our foothold sure, and give us help against the disbelieving folk,”147 and the refreshing message - “Help from Allah and present Victory. Give good tidings to believers”148 - was coming to them from heaven. They advanced in groups against the wicked unbelievers to get hold of the opening. (They) stood in the foremost rank without flinching and got an upper hand. They felled them (the Rajputs) one upon the other with the strokes of (their) blood-thirsty sword, leaving all around heaps of the slain. Pursuing the remnant who were fleeing in different directions – “As they were frightened asses, fleeing from the lion”149 - despatched them to the lowest part of the hell - when the star of success and good fortune rose from the horizon of the sublime message, “Victory comes only by the help of Allah, the Mighty, the Wise”150 the whole victorious troop entered the fort. In accordance with the imperative Command “And kill the idolators all together,”151 those defiant ones who were still offering resistance having formed themselves into knots of two to three hundred persons, were put to death and their women and children taken prisoners. According to the promise, “Allah promised you many acquisitions which you will take,”152 immense booty and spoils in cash and kind were acquired. “So the roots of the people who were unjust were cut off, and all praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.”153

‘The receptacle of nobility, the support of kingdom, the pillar of the mighty state, the prop of the magnificent empire, the confidant of the resplendent Khilafat, the foremost among the great Khans of the age, the climber of the ladder of authority and dignity, the devoted and sincere and the well-wishing one, the intrepid cavalier, the adorner of the ranks in the field of valour and bravery, Mubarizuddin Mir Mohammad Khan Bahadur, and the receptacle of nobility, the support of kingdom, the pillar of the mighty state, the prop of the magnificent empire, the best among the sinceres of the age, worthy of confidence and favour, the rider of the field of battle and valour, Qutbuddin Mohammad Khan Bahadur and the rest of the great Khans and noble Sultans alongwith the Saiyids, Ulama, Mashaikh, the Ghazis of Shariat and other dignitaries, residents, inhabitants, Chaudhris, Qanoongos, the ri’aya and peasants (muzari’an) of Sarkar Punjab respectively, being jubilant at the happy tidings carried by this auspicious Fathnama, which is, in fact, a foretaste of the victories to follow, should offer infinite thanksgivings. They should also pray in the auspicious moments, when the prayers are more likely to be granted, for the long life of our noble self, the perpetuity of the empire and for the grant of greater competence to us for fulfilling obligation of Jihad, divine worship and acts of piety. Further they should continuously be expecting that day after day doors of fresh victories and successes will be opened before us.

‘Whereas after the management of the affairs of Chitor we have turned the reins of our determination towards the capital Agra,

The horse beneath the thigh and overhead canopy of victory, The victory and success keeping company and divine help guiding the way.

‘Allah willing within these few day we will reach the seat of the Khilafat. The pillar of the state knowing that our thoughts are directed towards the management of his affairs and the fulfilment of the hopes and aspirations of all the well-wishers may send regular reports about the development (in his region). Any request that he might like to make should be communicated (to the court) so that it may be granted. Written by the royal order (to be obeyed permanently) at Ajmer on 10th of the month of Ramzan 975 A.H., 9 March 1568.”
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