Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 13 Dec 2011 18:24

Aditya_V wrote:
Venkarl wrote:Thanks JohneeG for writing it so elaborately. Regarding Sri Rama's marriage, one of the many objectives and an important one of Sri Rama's janma is to relieve his "dwarapalakas" Jaya and Vijaya from the shraap of Durvasa.

Did you mean the 4 Sanat Kumaras by any chance?

I believe thats another version with same sequence except 4 kumaras for Durvasa

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 13 Dec 2011 19:24

Venkarl wrote:Thanks JohneeG for writing it so elaborately. Regarding Sri Rama's marriage, one of the many objectives and an important one of Sri Rama's janma is to relieve his "dwarapalakas" Jaya and Vijaya from the shraap of Durvasa. So, here comes Ravana and Khumbhakarna in Treta Yuga. Now, if Sri Rama and Sita were to be married on a non-navami day, they could have a happy married life which is not the janma rahasya of Sri Rama's. 2 reasons which tells us why Sri Rama and Sita shouldn't have a happy married life: 1) Kill Ravana & Kumbhakarna after Sita's Kidnap 2) Sri Rama as an incarnation of Lord Vishnu has to return to Vaikunta once his janma-rahasya is fulfilled. So, obviously Sita had to leave Sri Rama in the end with Bhoodevi and Rama's avatar thereafter.

Now, Vishwamitra, with his powers of dooradrishti, knew all this coming so took Rama & Lakhmana at a young age itself as his shihyas. So, after Swayamvara, as a Guru of Sri Rama, he fixed the muhurtham for marriage of Sri Rama and Sita on Navami which is an inauspicious day like Ashtami. Why? so that they will lead a troublesome married life in forest and ultimately get separated. For these 2 reasons, Vishwamitra intentionally fixed their marriage on Navami for lokakalyan. I wanted to elicit this reasoning in A_Gupta in case he is not aware of this.

Saar,
very humbly, that doesnt seem proper. As I said, I have not read or heard of Sri Rama and Sita's marriage Muhurtam. I dont think it Navami. Navami is birth-date and not marriage date. As for A_Gupta, I think you are barking the wrong tree.

Also, I think the curse was not of Durvasa but Sanath Kumara. There are no kumaras of Durvasa. Sanath Kumaras are always of the age of kids and yet are possessed of supreme knowledge and complete dispassion from the very birth.

Jaya and Vijaya stopped their entry into the inner chambers of Vaikunta. The Sanath Kumaras cursed them for their misdemeanor. At that time, Lord Vishnu manifested at that place. Sanath Kumaras submitted to the Lord the behaviour of His door-keepers and their curse. They asked the Lord to revoke the curse if it was improper. Lord said that the curse was appropriate and did not revoke it.

So, the door-keepers Jaya and Vijaya were born thrice. First as Hiranya-Kashyapa and Hiranya-Aksha in Krita Yuga. Hiranya-Aksha was slain by the Lord as Varaha. Hiranya-Kashyapa was eliminated by the Lord as Nrisimha. Then, the two door-keepers were born as Ravana and Kumbhakarna in Treta Yuga. They were slain by Lord as Sri Rama. Finally, the two door-keepers were born as Kamsa and Shishupala. Lord Sri Krishna exterminated them. Generally, anyone who dies at the hand of Sri Krishna gets Moksha.

Sri Rama Avatar has following objectives:
a) Eliminate Ravana as he was troubling all the worlds.
b) Live the life of an ideal man as an example for all humanity.

If killing Ravana was the only objective, then Sri Rama did not have to suffer as much as He did.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 13 Dec 2011 19:27

abhischekcc wrote:
Narayana Rao wrote:The story of Ravana teaching rajaneethi to Lakshman is not based on Valmiki Ramayana. It is one of the stories doing rounds. Lakshmanji is the Prince of Surya Dynasty and student of Vashista. He is from the court where great ministers like Sumantha etc were there. Does he need any fresh eduction from Ravana? Further how ever great may be the knowledge and birth of Ravana, is he a fit person to teach " Rajaneethi" which he never followed. One more thing is the Ravana was killed instantly after being it by a divine arrow from Prabhu Sri Rama Chandra. Will he have time to teach things or talk in the first place ust like Telugu movie second wife/heroine after being shot in the forehead or being stabbed 122 times?
Ravana did not teach Rajniti to Laxman, he taught Kaal-Gyaan.

There is no such thing in Valmiki Ramayana, as far as I know. Is this mentioned in some Purana? What is the source?

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 13 Dec 2011 19:53

As I said, I have not read or heard of Sri Rama and Sita's marriage Muhurtam. I dont think it Navami. Navami is birth-date and not marriage date.

I stand corrected. In Bhadrachalam, it is celebrated as Wedding Ceremony on every Sri Rama Navami. My interpretation and reasoning is wrong. Thanks.

Regarding Durvasa/ Sanat Kumaras, give me some time. I firmly remember it was durvasa who first went to Brahmalok, then Kailas and then to Vaikuntham where Jaya Vijaya blocked already angered Durvasa resulting the shraap. He in that anger went on to kick Lord Vishnu on chest who was in yoga nidra. Vishnu then pressed the eye in Durvasa's feet after which Durvasa apologized and Jaya Vijaya shraap, 7 generations as good or 3 generations as bad, etc....you know the rest.Some say its sage bhrigu and not durvasa who kicked vishnu. This is what I've heard as a kid. I'll be glad to be corrected.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 13 Dec 2011 20:16

Venkarl ji, in all the stories about the Lord Vishnu being insulted by a kick on the chest, the culprit is Bhrigu, and not Durvyasa.You can go through this link, from Srimad Bhagvatam -http://vedabase.net/sb/10/89/summary/en1

Four sons of Lord Brahma cursed the two dwarpalas.

Read the entre story at this link
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/page/ap ... ay-of-lord

Hope this will answer your questions.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 13 Dec 2011 20:35

Venkarl wrote:
As I said, I have not read or heard of Sri Rama and Sita's marriage Muhurtam. I dont think it Navami. Navami is birth-date and not marriage date.
I stand corrected. In Bhadrachalam, it is celebrated as Wedding Ceremony on every Sri Rama Navami. My interpretation and reasoning is wrong. Thanks.

Yep, I pointed to it in the first post about the topic.

Venkarl wrote: Regarding Durvasa/ Sanat Kumaras, give me some time. I firmly remember it was durvasa who first went to Brahmalok, then Kailas and then to Vaikuntham where Jaya Vijaya blocked already angered Durvasa resulting the shraap. He in that anger went on to kick Lord Vishnu on chest who was in yoga nidra. Vishnu then pressed the eye in Durvasa's feet after which Durvasa apologized and Jaya Vijaya shraap, 7 generations as good or 3 generations as bad, etc....you know the rest.Some say its sage bhrigu and not durvasa who kicked vishnu. This is what I've heard as a kid. I'll be glad to be corrected.

he he he...Saar, thats a different story you are referring to.

I'll try to narrate it to the best of my knowledge:

Kali Yuga was starting. Once upon a time, the Saptarishis(7 Sages) wanted to perform a Yagam(Sacred Fire Ritual). They wondered who they must dedicate the rite to. They elected Bhrigu to test and select one of the Trimurti(Hindu Trinity) suitable for the dedication of the ritual. This is the power of Kali that even the Saptarishis got such inappropriate ideas. Who can test the Trimurtis? The judge must be superior the contestants he is judging. Are the Saptarishis or Bhrigu in a position to judge the Trimurtis?

Anyway, Bhrigu accepted the role and went to Brahma Loka. Lord Brahma knew on what purpose Bhrigu had come. The Lord did not even welcome him and seemed completely occupied in listening to the Veena of Goddess Saraswati. Bhrigu, who was hoping for a grand welcome was angered by this attitude. And cursed the four-headed Lord. Bhrigu declared the Lord unfit for the dedication of the ritual.

Then Bhrigu went to Kailasa. There, Lord Shiva, the omniscient, also did not care for the Bhrigu. He was not even welcomed. Bhrigu was enraged and cursed the three-eyed Lord as well. And declared Him unfit for the dedication of the ritual.

Here, it seems like anyone who does not give attention to Bhrigu is declared as unfit. So, it seems like it was not Bhrigu who was testing the Trimurti. Rather, they were testing him and even exposed him.

Anyway, Bhrigu then finally went to Vaikunta. He had already striked down 2 candidates out of 3 as unfit. So, Lord Vishnu was the last candidate. If Lord Vishnu also did not 'qualify', then what would Bhrigu do? If he goes back and tells the Saptarishis that all the 3 Trimurtis 'failed' his test, then they may think it Bhrigu's failure. So, Bhrigu may get humiliated. This was Bhrigu's position when he entered Vaikunta.

To his utter ire, even the Lord Vishnu ignored him completely. In the desperation and not knowing what to do and whom to choose, Bhrigu went and kicked the Lord on His chest. Lord, who pretended to be in Yoganidra, immediately raised and pretended to respect Bhrigu. Goddess Lakshmi who watched this was annoyed and dismayed to see that someone can perform such transgression against the Lord and instead of punishing him, the Lord is respecting him.

Meanwhile the Lord started pressing the feet of Bhrigu. Bhrigu was mighty pleased and declared Vishnu as fit to dedicate the fruit of ritual. What Bhrigu did not realise was that the Lord was about to crush his arrogance.

Bhrigu had an eye in his leg and it was a source to his arrogance. So, Lord on the excuse of pressing his feet, poked that eye and disabled it. When this happened, Bhrigu came to his senses and realised his mistake. And returned from Vaikunta.

However, Goddess Lakshmi was not impressed at this cunning of Her Lord. She considered it beneath the dignity. So, she left in a huff from Vaikunta. And settled in Kolhapur in Maharashtra. Kolhapur has been one of the Shakti-Peetas from ancient time. So, when the Goddess came to earth, she chose Kolhapur to stay.

After the Goddess left, even the Lord could not stay in Vaikunta and left it. He came to Tirupati and settled there as Venkateshwara.

This is how Venkateshwara came to Tirupathi. Here, the Goddess Lakshmi motivated the Lord to come to the rescue of the people. If Rishis were behaving in such manner owing to Kali, then what would be the condition of laymen? So, out of kindness, the Goddess inspired the Lord to incarnate in Tirupathi.

Accordingly, the Lord is in Tirupathi. Originally, inhabitant of Tirupathi is Lord Varaha along with Bhoodevi. Venkateshwara took lease of this place from the Lord Varaha till the end of Kali Yuga. The Lord Varaha placed a condition that He will agree to lease if the devotees first pay obeisance to Lord Varaha before going to visit Venkateshwara. Lord agreed to the condition. So, the devotees are supposed to visit Lord Varaha's temple before visiting Lord Venkateshwara. Otherwise, the visit will not be completely fruitful.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 13 Dec 2011 20:53

^^^^
Well narrated.I always visit the Varahaswami Temple first!Then I take a bath in the Kund,and then finally,stand in queue for the Darshan!

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 13 Dec 2011 20:58

sanjeevpunj wrote:^^^^
Well narrated.I always visit the Varahaswami Temple first!Then I take a bath in the Kund,and then finally,stand in queue for the Darshan!

Thanks.

You are doing it perfectly.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 13 Dec 2011 21:05

Extremely sorry Saars. Thank you for correcting me.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 13 Dec 2011 21:12

I took this pic at night after bathing at the Pushkarni Kund, near the temple of Lord Varahaswami.I feel the central structure is used by the divinities when they come from the heavens to bathe.Of course we do not see them in photos, but they must be there in spiritual forms.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 14 Dec 2011 19:50

RamaY wrote:
prahaar wrote:@Johnee_g, I have not read Mahabharat, but based on the depiction in BR Chopra's TV serial, Karna was denied entry to Dronacharya's Gurukul (since he is a "Sut-putra"). This is the reason he goes to Parashurama.
That is the problem with most of us prahaar ji. We would rather spend ~200hrs watching BRChopra's Mahabharat that is based on various versions of MB some of them being Buddhist and jainist interpretations instead of spending 100 hrs reading VyasaBharatam in our mother tongue.

Rama Garu,
reading the scriptures is not as easy as it seems. Firstly, we need to find a proper source that is sincere to the original and does not introduce its own bias. Secondly, there is every chance that the reader is not able to understand the message and confuses.

This is precisely where Pravachanams or discourses are useful. Instead of painstakingly going through various texts and then making sense of it all, listening to an expert is easier method. This is true of any subject. And it applies to spiritualism as well.

Best part is that once one listens to an expert, one is in a better position to understand the message of the texts. An expert makes the difficulty messages, easily understandable by giving interesting examples and analogies.

For example, most people listen and read the same things about Pak that people on BR do. Yet, there are Gurus here who can decipher the message between the lines and explain the situation clearly. Once we listen to them, then we are also in a position to make better sense of the reports and news items.

Similarly, the Gurus of scriptures can help us. And instead of spending 200/100 hrs, one can spend much lesser time and yet gain much greater insight.

Here are the discourses(in Telugu), I found enlightening and entertaining:

Sampoorna Ramayana-By Chaganti Koteshwara Rao

Mahabharatm-By Malladi Chandrashekara Shastri

Samavedam Shanmukha Sharma

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Dec 2011 20:07

johneeG wrote: Rama Garu,
reading the scriptures is not as easy as it seems. Firstly, we need to find a proper source that is sincere to the original and does not introduce its own bias. Secondly, there is every chance that the reader is not able to understand the message and confuses.

This is precisely where Pravachanams or discourses are useful. Instead of painstakingly going through various texts and then making sense of it all, listening to an expert is easier method. This is true of any subject. And it applies to spiritualism as well.

Agree JohneeG garu. Everything goes together; reading, pravachanam, feeling, doing, meditation, imagination etc.,

I heard all of them. Right now I have >20GB of these speeches counting to '000s hours. Go to Sri Chaganti's website and listen to his commentary on Lalita Sahasranama, which is exceptional IMO.

BTW, I noticed that you heard Malladi Chandrasekhara Sastry's commentary (at Nallakunta temple) on MB.

Did you check out Kathopanishad speech by Sri Sundara Chaitanyananda? I highly recommend that; it is awesome. I visited his Ashram in Dindigal and got his speeches on Vivekachudamani, Bhagavadgita, Sri Rudram, Vishnu Sahasranamam etc., Awesome stuff. Most of the stuff I write is from these speeches...

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 14 Dec 2011 20:27

RamaY wrote:
johneeG wrote: Rama Garu,
reading the scriptures is not as easy as it seems. Firstly, we need to find a proper source that is sincere to the original and does not introduce its own bias. Secondly, there is every chance that the reader is not able to understand the message and confuses.

This is precisely where Pravachanams or discourses are useful. Instead of painstakingly going through various texts and then making sense of it all, listening to an expert is easier method. This is true of any subject. And it applies to spiritualism as well.
Agree JohneeG garu. Everything goes together; reading, pravachanam, feeling, doing, meditation, imagination etc.,

Exactly.

RamaY wrote: I heard all of them. Right now I have >20GB of these speeches counting to '000s hours. Go to Sri Chaganti's website and listen to his commentary on Lalita Sahasranama, which is exceptional IMO.

I listened to that commentary in parts. The best thing about Chaganti's discourses is that they are freely available online. They are a good introduction to the subject. I, particularly, like his discourse on sampoorna Ramayanam. I started a blog to translate it into english, so that it is available to non-telugus as well.

Saar, do you have any discourse of Samavedam Shanmukha Sharma? I like his discourses. Generally, his discourses cover the subject completely. Very informative.

RamaY wrote: BTW, I noticed that you heard Malladi Chandrasekhara Sastry's commentary (at Nallakunta temple) on MB.

Actually, there is a more detailed discourse of his on MB, which is very good. But I cant find it online. So, I listened to this one, which is much briefer.

RamaY wrote: Did you check out Kathopanishad speech by Sri Sundara Chaitanyananda? I highly recommend that; it is awesome. I visited his Ashram in Dindigal and got his speeches on Vivekachudamani, Bhagavadgita, Sri Rudram, Vishnu Sahasranamam etc., Awesome stuff. Most of the stuff I write is from these speeches...

I have listened to some of it.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Dec 2011 22:17

SSS used to be very famous in my young days but nowadays I don't hear them much. Will check if I can find any good ones and let you know. I liked his Warangal speech a lot as he brought together Valmiki Ramayana, Tyagaraya Keertanas and Ramayana Kalpavriksham by Viswanatha. Especially the way he described (a) how Maata's name is Amma onlee (Rama's child hood poem by Viswanatha) and (2) Ahalya saapa vimochanam and how her son recognizes Rama when they reach Janaka's Mithila. Very touching. Desa Bhashalandu Telugu Lessa indeed.

MCS's speech made me search for Vyasa MB, a few Parvas I found on Archive.org by Sri Kappagantula Lakshmana Sastry (KLS) . His short speech at Nallakunta made me understand how MB got harikatha-ised from Vyasa to Kavitrayam to Tirupati Venkata Kavulu to current NTR movies

Sri KLS's vyasa MB verbatim translation mentions this in foot notes.

Pls listen to entire Kathopanishad speech by (SCA) if possible. As you go to the end it gets even more interesting. In this he explains how/where various religious thoughts/logic got and how they do not take you to "Aham Brahmasmi". I tried to translate the forward of this and posted in Nukkad (or may be in this thread?) a long time ago. I like his speeches because he gives Verbatim translation of the original Mantra and then explains it from Advaita perspective. Listen to his Vivekachudamani too as that is great IMHO. They are available at http://www.Surasa.net

I am sure there are great commentators in other languages too. Perhaps we should ask our friends on the forum to point them out. SwamyG garu should help us with Tamil commentaries. I prefer to get them together in Indic languages so people understand the context better.

SSS - Samavedam Shanmukha Sarma
KLS - Kappagantula Lakshmana Sastry
MCS - Malladi Chandrasekhara Sastry
SCA - Sundara Chaitanya Ananda
...

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Dec 2011 02:59

Sushupti ji,

I today joined the Rajiv Malhotra Discussion Yahoo Group! Interesting group!

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 16 Dec 2011 04:54

For people who can read Telugu TTD publication of MB, Ramayanam and Bhagavathan are quite good and reasonable size. They are written by UshaSri ( of radio fame) I do not know if there is any English Ediction. Sri Chakravathi Rajagopala Chari's Ramayanam based on Kaban's version is also great. I do not know it it is avaliable on line. Discorses of Sri Chaganti is comming on Maa TV at 8.30 IST every day. He is covering various courses.

For Telugu people great publications houses like RV etc of Madras who have done lot of good Telugu books are now gone. Vishalandra ( Vijayawada) is also doing some publications now a days. Last year I had could purchase good books like Sakshi entire set in Vijayawada.

In respect of the Curses in Purana's -

Durvasa - To Devathas - Leading of Chrning of the Sea Amritha etc.
Brugu - Sthalapuranam of Tupupathi
Sanath Kumaras - Jaya Vijaya taking 3 times births as Hiranyaksha Hiranya Kashapa, Ramana Kumbhakarna and Shishupala Danthvakra.

Sri Ramanavami is the birth day of Lord and the marrigage is performed on his birth day only. It is the system of selebrating marriage on birth day and not on marrigage day.

With regard to Ramana treaching anything to Lakshmana Swamy - Does any one living after getting hit by a divine weapon. Just like I wrote it sounds like Telugu Cinema scene where people gettign shot some 40 to 50 times or stabbed 10 to 15 times speaking about love etc or trying to give information etc. No text supports that story. whether it is Rajaneethi or Kaal Gyana - Does Ravana know Kaal Gyana??? Who has even reasonable prediction of future will do things like him? His arrogence and lust of women brought his downfall. The garrison in Janasthala is the same armies he had to fight for a year and could not defeat and Lord Rama alone killed them all in no time. Further Maricha tell him twice about the power of Lord Rama and trying to warn him. But Ramana is blind even to have a proper assesment of the threat. Such person giving Kaal Gyana lecture ???

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 16 Dec 2011 04:57

I am finding too many Telugu people are interedted in Ramayan etc. Love that. It is better to have lot of Teluru people doing all the things except sitting as MP's for INC

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 16 Dec 2011 04:58

For people who can read Telugu TTD publication of MB, Ramayanam and Bhagavathan are quite good and reasonable size. They are written by UshaSri ( of radio fame) I do not know if there is any English Ediction. Sri Chakravathi Rajagopala Chari's Ramayanam based on Kaban's version is also great. I do not know it it is avaliable on line. Discorses of Sri Chaganti is comming on Maa TV at 8.30 IST every day. He is covering various courses.

For Telugu people great publications houses like RV etc of Madras who have done lot of good Telugu books are now gone. Vishalandra ( Vijayawada) is also doing some publications now a days. Last year I had could purchase good books like Sakshi entire set in Vijayawada.

In respect of the Curses in Purana's -

Durvasa - To Devathas - Leading of Chrning of the Sea Amritha etc.
Brugu - Sthalapuranam of Tupupathi
Sanath Kumaras - Jaya Vijaya taking 3 times births as Hiranyaksha Hiranya Kashapa, Ramana Kumbhakarna and Shishupala Danthvakra.

Sri Ramanavami is the birth day of Lord and the marrigage is performed on his birth day only. It is the system of selebrating marriage on birth day and not on marrigage day.

With regard to Ramana treaching anything to Lakshmana Swamy - Does any one living after getting hit by a divine weapon. Just like I wrote it sounds like Telugu Cinema scene where people gettign shot some 40 to 50 times or stabbed 10 to 15 times speaking about love etc or trying to give information etc. No text supports that story. whether it is Rajaneethi or Kaal Gyana - Does Ravana know Kaal Gyana??? Who has even reasonable prediction of future will do things like him? His arrogence and lust of women brought his downfall. The garrison in Janasthala is the same armies he had to fight for a year and could not defeat and Lord Rama alone killed them all in no time. Further Maricha tell him twice about the power of Lord Rama and trying to warn him. But Ramana is blind even to have a proper assesment of the threat. Such person giving Kaal Gyana lecture ???

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Dec 2011 09:24

Ramana=Ravana?

sampat · Post by **sampat** » 16 Dec 2011 21:58

For discourse on Bhagavad gita and upanishad check out demonoid. There are very good lectures from Swami Dayanada Saraswati.
Search for user Tellag on demonoid.

http://www.demonoid.me/files/?query=tellag

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 17 Dec 2011 04:49

ramana wrote:Ramana=Ravana?

I thought your handle was inspired by Bhagwan Sri Ramana Mahrishi !

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 17 Dec 2011 10:23

^^ me too thought the same

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 17 Dec 2011 10:44

johneeG wrote:
abhischekcc wrote:Ravana did not teach Rajniti to Laxman, he taught Kaal-Gyaan.
There is no such thing in Valmiki Ramayana, as far as I know. Is this mentioned in some Purana? What is the source?

Valmiki Ramayana is meant for public consumption. It says limited things that common people can relate to and is necessary for their moral education.

There are several phases of actual history that are not part of written history, but are part of the oral history that is passed from Guru-mukh.

After Ravan (Dashanan or ten-headed) was killed, Ram and Sita returned to Ayodhya, Ravan's guru Shatanan (or hundred headed) attacked Lanka/Vibhishan to avenge his disciple's death. Ram had to return to Lanka to finish him off.

After this episode, Lanka/Vibishan were again attacked by Ravan's Brahmandiya (Universal) guru - Sahastranan (or thousand headed). Ram, Sita, and Lakshman, like before had to return to Lanka to finish him off. But Ram could not manage to do so. Lanka was burning again and the soot had accumulated on Hanuman. Then Sita climbed on to Hanuman's shoulder on his virat swarup. Sita, who is an avatar of Mahakali, took on her actual colour, dark. This swarup of dark Sita on blackened Hanuman is considered an aspect of Mahakali fighting with Kaal Bhairav. Sita then cut of Sahastranan's head. This is the same head that you see on every Kaali idol. I know that that head has a different story that is more popular, but this is the actual story.

There is a side story to this. Ravan's ishta was Kaali. It was because of his tap that Mahakali came to Lanka in the form of Sita. And then she, who lives in Shamshan, turned Lanka to Shamshan. That is why only innocent people are worthy of worshiping Kaali, all others are asking for annihilation.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 17 Dec 2011 19:35

@Abhishekcc, regarding worshipping Kaalimaa, what one calls personal annihilation, others see it as super-fast-karma-annihilation. But it is true, that one should be ready to pay for karmas in short-term if worshipping kaalimata, it is said to give give fastest results in this Kaliyug.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 17 Dec 2011 19:44

Rama Garu,
do you have any discourses of Samavedam Shanmukha Sharma? They are not available online. So, if you have a store of it, could you please upload it somewhere for download? Please...

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 18 Dec 2011 00:55

Just wanted to throw this out there: this thread really warms the heart. It's really amazing to see the cultural legacy of our ancestors still talked about to this day. All the varied stories, all the little cultural differences that happen from state to state. It's just mind boggling that all of this is still with this and will be for a long time to come.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 20 Dec 2011 21:17

The Gita is under hot discussion in Indo-Russia relationships, with BJP demanding it be made the National Book of India.Would like to hear what people have to say about this controversy. The controversy is based in Russia,the Gita has been "summoned" to court, and in Tomsk,the mood is pensive.I posted a tweet recently "Banning the Gita is like putting up a security firewall in the sky"

The particular translation in question is the version by Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada, founder of ISKCON.

When Srila Prabhupada arrived in USA in 1965 after a harrowing sea journey aboard an Indian merchant freighter called Jaladoot, he was practically without any money,on a cold winter night at the Commonwealth Pier, Boston, Massachusetts, U.S.A. After struggling almost a year against severe difficulties,there he founded the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON) in July 1966. Two years later he established New Vrindavan, a rural community in West Virginia, as a living application of the ideal Vedic God-centered life-style, which has also inspired many similar devotional communities in other parts of the world. With help from hippies(now full time ISKCON devotees) living around New York's East village, within seven years time, the movement grew into a major cult spanning USA,Europe,Africa,Asia, in fact the whole world. George Harrison donated his palatial and beautifully landscaped mansion(now called Bhaktivedanta Manor) in UK, for the setting up the current UK HQ of ISKCON.

The book in question.............................................................................a Rathayatra procession in Moscow,Russia(recent)

The Accusation-The Bhagavad Gita version used popularly across the world,printed by ISKCON,translated from the original by Srila Prabhupada, has been branded "extremist" literature by a small group of russians, supported by the Russian orthodox Church.It is claimed that Gita has caused "social disturbance" in Russia.All this does come at a time when Putin is facing major un-popularity after his re-election.
The case, which has been going on in the Tomsk court since June, seeks a ban on a Russian translation of the "Bhagavad Gita As It Is" written by A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON).

Read more: http://news.iskcon.com/node/4079/2011-1 ... z1h5cPzvLQ

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India has asked the Russian government to drop a court case in Siberia against a translation of the Bhagavat Gita.
“The matter has been taken up by the Indian Embassy in Moscow with the Russian Government at senior official level, seeking its favourable and positive intervention in the matter,” Indian Ambassador to Russia Ajai Malhotra said.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 20 Dec 2011 21:38

on a curious note, I don't see why the Russian authorities are so scared. ultimately, BG is a text which exhorts one of the main characters for Dharma Yuddha b/c it's his responsibility. I'm sure the Russian could think of unique ways to invest their own Dharma Yuddhas. BG can actually be a great motivator to bring masses together for a common cause. Russia in the future might just need something like the BG.

It'd be really interesting to see what exactly is troubling them?!?!

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 20 Dec 2011 21:51

Devesh ji,

There is some history to this. During the USSR dispensation, the Bhagavad Gita was indeed a subversive text in Russia. It was an underground affair, after copies of Swami Bhaktivedanta's commentary of the Bhagavad Gita were smuggled into the USSR and reproduced from hand to hand. Several devotees found themselves in jail. Others were put into mental institutions to "cure" them of this mental disease of "god". Iskcon boasts "martyrs" in countries of the former Soviet Union as well as some Moslem countries, including Pakistan. Some high profile figures also became devotees -- and here's the thing -- they defected from the USSR. For example, one prominent former Soviet biotechnologist was a covert devotee. The KGB began to suspect it and interrogated him, during which he denied it. However, at the very next international biotech conference he defected. (He is now a Swami within Iskcon and guides the movement in Russia.) The KGB had a special section targetting the Iskcon movement in Russia. Later, some KGB agents themselves became devotees - a humorous fact often cited by Russian devotees I have met. This was also the case with some agents of American government agencies. Anyhow, the fact is that in Russia, Iskcon has a long history of being targetted and being considered subversive by the state. Post Soviet era, the Russian Orthodox church added its two pence saying that Krishna was actually the Satan of the Bible. Krishna devotees in previous Ratha-yatras in Moscow have been pelted with stones by Orthodox devotees lining the street. Finally, Russian Krishna devotees made up plans for a grandiose Krishna temple in the heart of Moscow, right across historic monuments there. These were very grandiose plans, IMHO, that would have changed the typical Moscow skyline. I personally don't know why Iskconers would have been obsessed with getting into such plans and inviting a reaction, instead of focussing on cultivating grassroots. Similar plans were there in Kazakhstan, supposedly covertly funded by an Arab Sheikh who was an undercover devotee. Both these projects in Moscow and Kazakhstan were shot down and the local movement crushed by the respective governments in league with the Orthodox and Moslem religious establishments in each area. So, all in all, the Iskconers in Russia and C. Asia tend to be a pretty adrenalized and hardcore bunch, and they run into problems with the coercive machinery of the state and the established religions there. Sometimes Iskconers also tend to take fundamentalist positions on controversial issues like evolution and other aspects of science. On the positive side, these areas are also producing the most intelligent, sincere and scholarly students of the Vedas, Sanskrit, etc. These are not just within Iskcon, but in several other mathas. Iskcon, however, serves as a main portal for all these people. It is significant that the head of the Madhva mathas decided to break centuries old tradition and leave India's shores for prachaar. The country he chose was Russia. So, even though there are excesses in Iskcon, the fact is that it tends to even out after virgin territory is broken. Then some good work can be expected. For this and other reasons, it is important we support them at this time.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Dec 2011 22:00

Banning the book in Russia is problematic for congrez in India. It can then be taken up against Christianity in general being intolerant of other creeds/philosophies - even if it is just Russian Orthodox now dancing about it in Tomsk. A greater interest in as to why one Christian sect is so riled against BG may lead more Indians to search for similar riling and a much bigger can of worms will open up. This time - regular lampooning and bedvilment from the Catholic Church, or from various EJ sects - will show up in the searches, showing a common pattern of hatred and "demonization" of a "religion".

Congrez gets trapped in its own game of shouting to protect the image of Islam and Christianity from criticism under the argument of no-demonization-of-religion. So it does need to move.

As for Orthodox Church, there are trends within the Orthodox church to stake a claim for state power and influence. This has been a theme in the Russian state since Ivan IV or Ivan the Terrible. Directly trying to bring Putin under its thumb is still dangerous. The Church leaders have therefore chosen a safe third party to test the waters and rally the faithful behind its bid for power.

Putin is not a simpleton, but in case his leader-of-the-pride threat response instincts need to be jogged, he should be reminded of the long standing tussle between the tsars and their theologians.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 20 Dec 2011 22:18

prahaar wrote:@Abhishekcc, regarding worshipping Kaalimaa, what one calls personal annihilation, others see it as super-fast-karma-annihilation. But it is true, that one should be ready to pay for karmas in short-term if worshipping kaalimata, it is said to give give fastest results in this Kaliyug.

prahaar, worshiping of Kali by materialistic people will lead to their destruction. The sadhak needs to be internally pure and innocent to worship her. The more innocent and pure he is, the less pain he will endure, and this will lead to karma-destruction. The Rakshas kul was materialistic, hence was annihilated. Because materialistic people are attached to the results of their karma, hence when karma is destroyed, so is the (materialistic) sadhak.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Dec 2011 22:45

abhischekcc wrote:
prahaar wrote:@Abhishekcc, regarding worshipping Kaalimaa, what one calls personal annihilation, others see it as super-fast-karma-annihilation. But it is true, that one should be ready to pay for karmas in short-term if worshipping kaalimata, it is said to give give fastest results in this Kaliyug.
prahaar, worshiping of Kali by materialistic people will lead to their destruction. The sadhak needs to be internally pure and innocent to worship her. The more innocent and pure he is, the less pain he will endure, and this will lead to karma-destruction. The Rakshas kul was materialistic, hence was annihilated. Because materialistic people are attached to the results of their karma, hence when karma is destroyed, so is the (materialistic) sadhak.

On a lighter note : lots of kaali-sadhaaks in GV were wiped out by the Islamists, without seemingly much fallout on their beef-eating women-abducting spree. But more importantly are we to assume that all these kaali-saadhaks were "materialistic"?

There is a mysticism thats promoted in India by spiritual-con-artists, aimed at mystifying and supernaturalizing the tantrik route towards constructing an aura about themselves or their gurus or their groups. Women would come hoping for a "child", people will bring sidha, and give gold and jewelry and property. This distorts the reality and presupposes a reliance on fate/divine intervention/supernatural powers - that is ultimately disastrous for both the individual as well as the society.

That route should be stripped of its supernaturalism. its a window into space and time that cannot and should not be used for changing the course of events. Changing things on ground have to be by real action on ground.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 20 Dec 2011 23:03

When I read "Bhagavad Gita as it is" some 3-4 years ago, I could not beyond the first 50 pages. In those few pages Swami Prabhupada would have mentioned "Krishna is the supreme God head". As an Advaitin, I could not put up with this subtle infusion of Vaishnava presuppositions and assertions. But I still respect the man though. I revere him a lot though, wat an intellect and Bhakti towards a noble cause.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Dec 2011 23:45

^ Being an Advaitin you should not worry about that; because "You are that Krishna"

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 21 Dec 2011 00:54

I am assuming its Rishi Bhagirath and Parvatiji standing alongside Shiviji?

Descent of Gangaji

At Night

Disclaimer: Above pictures are not taken by me.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 21 Dec 2011 01:08

A certain Advaita Math(monastry) swami, who was also an ardent devotee of Lord Sri Krishna, was asked by a devotee,"You are advaitin. How is that compatible with your devotion to Lord Sri Krishna?"

The swami replied,"Actually, I am a devotee of the Lord Krishna. I approached Him with the feeling of 'Dasoham'(I am your servant). But the Lord Krishna is typical. He likes to steal. He stole butter from the neighbouring houses when He was a kid. He stole the clothes of bathing girls, when He was a youth. So, this Lord wanted to steal something from me too. But what do I have? Everything that I have is given by Him. So, the Lord stole the 'Da' part of 'Dasoham' and hence I got the Gyanam of 'Soham'(I am He)."

From Advaita perspective, Dwaita and Vishishita Advaita are the stages before Advaita Gyanam.

EDIT: Great pictures(statue) of Lord Shiva.

Shambo Shankara...

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 21 Dec 2011 03:46

From a Telugu novel "Maha Vedha" by Sri Chivukula Purushottam

Lambika (location on top of tonsils) is where Manas resides. In yogic language Manas+Prana = Vaayu.

When this Vayu doesnt go to any part of brain, then that state is called Sleep, Tamas, Ignorance etc.,

When this Vayu enters Cerebral Cortex and Frontal Lobe it is called Awaken-state (Jaagrat Avastha). The material universe and associated knowledge is perceived here.

When this Vayu enters Parietal Lobes it becomes Chitta. This lobes are home to memory cells. These cells contain the memories of a person's good, bad experiences.

There is a gland called hypophysis two inches above Lumbika. When Vaayu (Manas+Prana) enters this location and interact with the gray cells in this area (which are different from cerebral cortex) that is called Buddhi.

Thus Jagrat, Swapna, Sushupti and Turiya stages are part of large brain. This is called Mahamaya in Yoga.

When the Vaayu is taken from these common locations to small brain it is said to have reached Bhaavatita, Achala Nirguna Parabrahma, Dwadasamta, Paschima Jyothisthana.

Only one sensory organ is said to have connected to this location, that is ear that is said to be made of Akaasa Tatva. That is why it is a Vedic practice for Guru to teach a mantra in years, very secretly.

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 21 Dec 2011 04:52

johneeG wrote:EDIT: Great pictures(statue) of Lord Shiva. Shambo Shankara...

In relation to current conversation, the temple in background is one of Lord Swaminarayan based on Vishishtadvaita with NarNarayan Dev as principle deity.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 21 Dec 2011 09:15

johneeG wrote:A certain Advaita Math(monastry) swami, who was also an ardent devotee of Lord Sri Krishna, was asked by a devotee,"You are advaitin. How is that compatible with your devotion to Lord Sri Krishna?"

The swami replied,"Actually, I am a devotee of the Lord Krishna. I approached Him with the feeling of 'Dasoham'(I am your servant). But the Lord Krishna is typical. He likes to steal. He stole butter from the neighbouring houses when He was a kid. He stole the clothes of bathing girls, when He was a youth. So, this Lord wanted to steal something from me too. But what do I have? Everything that I have is given by Him. So, the Lord stole the 'Da' part of 'Dasoham' and hence I got the Gyanam of 'Soham'(I am He)."

From Advaita perspective, Dwaita and Vishishita Advaita are the stages before Advaita Gyanam.

Ok ,now let's hear the other version of this story.

A Vaishnava sAdhaka worships at a temple. An "adwaitin" walks by, and feels contempt for the "dwaita" worship. So he puts some graffiti on the temple wall - "so 'ham" ("I am He"). Later, when the Vaishnava sees it, he feels sorry, and gently adds a "daa" as a prefix to make it "daa-so 'ham" ("I am the servant"). Next day our adwaitin hero walks by again, and is miffed at the change to his declaration. So he adds another prefix of "sa-daa" to the expanding graffiti, so that it now reads "sa-daa so' ham" ("Eternally, I am He"). Satisfied that he has had the last word, he walks away.

Next day as he walks by, he turns his head at the temple to re-live the satisfaction of making his point. But he sees an aditional prefix, and it now reads, "daa-sa daa-so 'ham" ("I am the servant of the servant (of God)")

Indeed, this is the apex of Vaishnava philosophy. "Adwaitins" are usually not able to appreciate that Oneness includes Uniqueness (and therefore difference and relationships). Vaishnavas understand that we are all part and parcel of the divine and non-different from Parabrahman, but that is different from identification (one Vaishnava school of philosophy is called shuddha-adwaita). Vaishnavas also find it piskologically interesting that neo-Adwaitins feel irritated by Vaishnava adoration of the Lord.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 21 Dec 2011 10:16

Carl Saar,
the whole point of my post was that an advaitin need not feel irritated by Dwaita or Vishishta Advaita, as they are seen as stages in Advaita. Meant no offence. Sorry, if it came across differently.

Anyway, I find that the irritation is mutual among 'neo-advaitins' or 'neo-dvaitins' or 'neo-vishishta advaitins'. Note that Dvaita and Vishishta Advaita are not 'friends' either. Also, Vaishnava school of thought is much more diverse than just two schools(Dvaita and Vishishta Advaita). Further, certain schools of thought within Shaivism, Shaktism,...etc can also be philosophically classified as Dvaita or Vishishta Advaita. At the end of the day, each school holds itself as supreme and holds the other in contempt. I wonder what all these details mean piskologically...